Meta 2015 Community Tier List Voting

[Fugibean]

S Tier
Fox
Marth
Falco
Sheik
Peach

A Tier
Ice Climbers
Puff
C. Falcon
Pikachu
Yoshi

B Tier
Samus
Luigi
Young Link
Mario
Doc
Link

C Tier
Ganon
DK

D Tier
Pichu
Roy
Mewtwo
Zelda
G & W
Ness
Kirby

 

[ChainArmour712]

Okay, here's my voted list:

-I think he does belong in his own tier above the others. No real flaws, should be nerfed heavily if Melee HD ever comes out

- Better than Marth but not by that much. His recovery leaves him vulnerable against many characters if they get an opening
- Above Sheik reflecting better Spacies matchups
- Still third best rushdown after Spacies, hurt by not having quite Fox's power or speed

- Still over the rest due to WOP which is effective vs other high tiers
- Over Peach due to speed, power and tech ceiling; suffers from recovery and not quite as good as Spacies while not having Sheik's projectile
- Still high tier but overrated imo due to Armada. Lots of room for creativity though

- Can outspeed the rest of the cast below him, upsmash, good recovery. Less rooom for versatility keeps him below Peach
- Wobbling and slight disjoint, good power but suffers from SoPo

- Underrated, lots of tech potential from eggs DJ and parries, better range and power than the plumbers
-Still quite viable, excellent projectile and cape, suffers from recovery
- Wavedash shenanigans and upB

- Recovery and above average range plus charge shot but not spectacular otherwise, slightly overrated IMO
- Underrated IMO, has tools like upB and extra range that YL lacks allowing him to compete better vs Spacies and Marth. Versatility with Bombs, DownB setups and a better recovery put him above Ganon and Mario
- Very solid but relies on reads, tilts and air attacks are outstanding, hurt by his recovery and getting outsped in close, can get wrecked by top tiers but doesn't have something else like a projectile to bail him out
- Slightly overrated due to several pros using him as a secondary, does better than Link in several matchups, held back by limited kill options and his range puts him in danger from Spacies, Falcon et al.

- Overrated but not terrible, just doesn't have Doc's extra power or Pills, I'd take Ganon's kill power and the Links' range over him
-Overrated but pros can make him work, creative throw combos, hurt by his size and air options. He is the last character on my list who has a decent chance in the metagame IMO

- Underrated, fast tilts and good smashes, throws kill well, air attacks are not excellent and light, more tricks available to him than Roy
- Underrated, what Marth traits he has serves him well but doesn't make sense unless you think Marth is annoying (I sure do)
- Strange and light, I'd say that Roy does better realistically due to a more intuitive moveset.

- Not last place and underrated, his gimps help a bunch against top tiers, smashes are decent, still at a big disadvantage, just fast enough vs top tiers but lacks Pichu's drawbacks of mass, range and self damage
- Above the rest due to his speed, which at least allows a good Pichu to not get totally shut down against top tiers
- Powerful but clunky, overrated in today's meta, does not have the speed necessary to compete realistically
- Above Ness thanks to four good moves (fair, ftilt, upB, forwardB) and DJ, garbage otherwise but some can make him work
- Just doesn't have any real trait to put him above anybody else. Gets outrushed by top tiers, outpowered by them, recovery's not great, bat is slow but not powerful enough)


Also, I'm hesitant to use the common practice of labelling certain tiers as "viable" or "not viable" since it's in my opinion not fair to those who main mid to low tiers, and the line isn't quite clear enough to show who fits each classification. I do think after DK on my list there is a large gap between him and further down, but I'm not willing to just cast a blanket assumption on those characters either. Honestly it matters more that the top tiers will be used most regardless of overall roster viability, unless a given player chooses a character based on being a fan as opposed to tier placement.

 

[ChainArmour712]

Sorry for the double post

 

[Laudandus]

Well he gave his reasoning this time. While I still disagree, I can understand the arguments he's making. But yeah, Falco is getting slept on HARD in this thread by some people. Laudandus, you're from Cali. How often does Johnnie actually beat Westballz? And if he does win more than lose, name me one other Falcon on this planet who's positive against Westballz or PP, or any other high level Falco for that matter.



Try telling that to M2K, or any of the top Sheik mains for that matter. I haven't seen a high level Sheik main specifically beat a high level Falco main in recent memory. The are only two times I can think of off of the top of my head, the first time being when KirbyKaze beat Weon-X at The Come Up in Toronto this past winter. Camilo isn't really a Falco though. That man's definitely a better Fox. Plus KK was having a great weekend that tournament. The other time being when M2K beat Mango in winners' bracket of Apex... 2013 I think. Yeah that's when it was. And then they met in losers' and played Falco vs. Sheik. Mango won.

Marth v Falco on the other hand, I think that matchup will almost always be completely even. Both characters have lots of usable tools/options and punishes on each other in that matchup. Zoning doesn't matter a ton when Falco gets in on Marth, which is much easier than most characters thanks to lasers. If Marth gets hit by a laser from an approaching Falco, he's getting hit by an aerial or a shine, no doubt about it.

I think Falcon is underrepresented by good players. It's very easy to imagine a player who has the skill level of S2J but the non-scrubby attitude of 20GX players, who can edge guard and reaction tech chase and stuff but also has the experience and skill to really compete in neutral. If S2J could edge guard he would have beaten PPMD, and given their skill levels that is ridiculous.

Most Sheiks are not that good in the Falco matchup. You need to have really clean execution and strong punishes. But recently, KK beat Westballz at Apex, Shroomed beat Westballz at INY, M2K beat Mango at BH4, Druggedfox beat Zhu (forget where, very recent), Plup beat Westballz (midwest somewhere, also recent), and Zhu told me after playing a bunch of friendlies with Flash that he thinks Flash is unbeatable in that matchup.

Marth is not going to get hit by an aerial or shine after a laser. Lasers have like 4 frames of hitstun. Marth can just tank a laser and then dash away, and if Falco overcommits after that laser he's getting the **** chain thrown out of him. Even PPU told me he thinks that Marth beats Falco, and he has never told me that he thinks Marth wins a matchup before. I think Marth is Falco's worst matchup by a considerable amount and that between characters in the top 5 it is the most lopsided matchup.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Lasers have like 4 frames of hitstun.

No they don't. They have 4 frames of hitlag and 10 frames of hitstun, totaling 14 frames. A lot of moves can be connected from a close laser by Falco thanks to this.

 

[Upke]

This tier list is a breath of fresh air because it seems like you've actually thought it through yourself rather than just following the norms.

That being said, what is your reasoning for putting Puff below even ICs? And Falcon above Peach? Just curious. Please don't get overly defensive. Im yung. I dont wanna die.

I've had at least one Puff training partner for the entirety of my albeit short Melee career, and I've always had a pretty low opinion of pretty much everything she has because of it. I think people are just less willing to play correctly against her because it's not as easy to be that patient and spacing-dependent for a lot of people. ICs have their own very noticeable flaws of course, but they also can move quite quickly, and movement means a lot even by itself, not to mention having the most reliable death combo in the game.

I think Falcon is hella good. As long as you watch your opponent whenever you hit them, you usually have a ton of time to react to their DI and choose which move (usually aerial) to combo into next to maximize output. His movement is just literally insane. Peach, though with very flattering float cancel mechanics, is significantly slower and with significantly less combo potential against most of the cast. Her recovery makes Falcon's look laughable, but I like to treat the tier list in a more ideal, theoretical manner, and as such, recovering isn't as highly regarded because you shouldn't be recovering if playing as correctly as possible.

I don't completely disregard human boundaries and mindgames though.

 

[wiiqwertyuiop]

S Tier
Fox
Marth
Falco
Sheik

A Tier
Jigglypuff
Peach
Ice Climbers
C. Falcon

B Tier
Samus
Pikachu
Yoshi
Luigi
Dr. Mario
Ganondorf
Mario

C Tier
Young Link
Link
Donkey Kong

D Tier
Game & Watch
Mewtwo
Roy
Ness
Bowser
Zelda
Pichu
Kirby

 

[Scaremonger]

No they don't. They have 4 frames of hitlag and 10 frames of hitstun, totaling 14 frames. A lot of moves can be connected from a close laser by Falco thanks to this.

Lasers do 8 frames of hitstun on every character and 4 frames of hitlag. I've never been able to find the correct files for Melee's projectiles, but from looking in the debug menu and stuff, I'm 99% sure they do 2 units of WDSK, which is the only way I can think of to make them have consistent stun across all weights. Falco's MAXIMUM frame advantage is +8, but realistically the +8 is not going to be achieved against almost any character.

 

[keymanb]

Well he gave his reasoning this time. While I still disagree, I can understand the arguments he's making. But yeah, Falco is getting slept on HARD in this thread by some people. Laudandus, you're from Cali. How often does Johnnie actually beat Westballz? And if he does win more than lose, name me one other Falcon on this planet who's positive against Westballz or PP, or any other high level Falco for that matter.



Try telling that to M2K, or any of the top Sheik mains for that matter. I haven't seen a high level Sheik main specifically beat a high level Falco main in recent memory. The are only two times I can think of off of the top of my head, the first time being when KirbyKaze beat Weon-X at The Come Up in Toronto this past winter. Camilo isn't really a Falco though. That man's definitely a better Fox. Plus KK was having a great weekend that tournament. The other time being when M2K beat Mango in winners' bracket of Apex... 2013 I think. Yeah that's when it was. And then they met in losers' and played Falco vs. Sheik. Mango won.

Marth v Falco on the other hand, I think that matchup will almost always be completely even. Both characters have lots of usable tools/options and punishes on each other in that matchup. Zoning doesn't matter a ton when Falco gets in on Marth, which is much easier than most characters thanks to lasers. If Marth gets hit by a laser from an approaching Falco, he's getting hit by an aerial or a shine, no doubt about it.

THANK YOU!!!

The amount of people bulldozing falco is depressing. He's an excellent character, on par with fox and marth, he is the owner of the best projectile, he has a great SHFFL. His MU's are dominant with mid A-F tiers. And the ridiculous falcon placements above falco, above shiek and above jigglypuff is crude and confusing. I understand it's opinion but I can't process that.

 

[kingPiano]

man, Falcos seem kind of sensitive...how are "Falco's being slept on HARD..."? lol

Most are still putting him at 2nd and the rest are just barely putting Marth above him. Then we've got the 3 of you hollering about how super awesome he is...

For me personally I love playing Falcos; it's easy, straightfoward, and fun. It's usually volatile, fast, and any given match against any player is full of easy edgeguards and combos. I don't mind lasers either since I just use one of my characters that can ignore/counter them (Link, Mario, Kirby) or I just powershield.

On the other hand I always DREAD having to play a good Marth or Sheik. This seems to be how almost everyone feels. Both have combos on almost all characters and are able to tech chase and CG pretty damn easy. Both can also be more awkward to combo and follow up on in my experience.


.

 

[Scaremonger]

Marth is like the easiest character in the game to combo, dude, what

and lolsensitivefalcos

 

[keymanb]

man, Falcos seem kind of sensitive...how are "Falco's being slept on HARD..."? lol

Most are still putting him at 2nd and the rest are just barely putting Marth above him. Then we've got the 3 of you hollering about how super awesome he is...

For me personally I love playing Falcos; it's easy, straightfoward, and fun. It's usually volatile, fast, and any given match against any player is full of easy edgeguards and combos. I don't mind lasers either since I just use one of my characters that can ignore/counter them (Link, Mario, Kirby) or I just powershield.

On the other hand I always DREAD having to play a good Marth or Sheik. This seems to be how almost everyone feels. Both have combos on almost all characters and are able to tech chase and CG pretty damn easy. Both can also be more awkward to combo and follow up on in my experience.


.

How r00d

Marth is like the easiest character in the game to combo, dude, what

and lolsensitivefalcos

Hehehehehehehe sensitive falco's gg for a reformed gang member

 

[kingPiano]

How r00d


Hehehehehehehe sensitive falco's gg for a reformed gang member

It may be r00d d00d, but from my perspective it's the tr00th



k?

 

[outofphase]

Solo main viable:
Fox
Marth
Falco
Sheik

Requires exceptional play in certain matchups to be solo viable:
Puff
Peach
Falcon

Needs some bracket luck and exceptional play:
ICs
Yoshi
Pikachu

Non-solo viable, significantly limited in 2015 tournament environment:
Samus
Luigi
Dr. Mario
Mario
Ganondorf

Non-viable, even weak as a secondary
Y. Link
Link
Donkey Kong

Not fit in 2015 tournament environment:
Ness
Zelda
Pichu
Roy
Mewtwo
Bowser
GnW
Kirby

Already voted, but here are my tiers and short tier descriptions.

 

[RaginAzn]

if you put ganon above luigi and yoshi your list is exactly like mine

S Tier (Wins majors/nationals, almost no questions about these belonging here, definitely viable)
1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Sheik
4. Marth
5. Jigglypuff
6. Peach

A Tier (Can win locals and friendlies, viable)
7. Captain Falcon
8. Ice Climbers
9. Samus
10. Pikachu
11. Luigi
12. Yoshi
13. Ganondorf
14. Dr Mario
15. Mario
16. Young Link

F Tier (Just not viable)
17. Link
18. Donkey Kong
19. Zelda
20. Ness
21. Mr. Game and watch
22. Pichu
23. Mewtwo
24. Roy
25. Kirby
26. Bowser

 

[RaginAzn]

Who do you guys think is better G&W or donkey kong?

 

[PK Illuminati]

Okay, here's my voted list:

-I think he does belong in his own tier above the others. No real flaws, should be nerfed heavily if Melee HD ever comes out

- Better than Marth but not by that much. His recovery leaves him vulnerable against many characters if they get an opening
- Above Sheik reflecting better Spacies matchups
- Still third best rushdown after Spacies, hurt by not having quite Fox's power or speed

- Still over the rest due to WOP which is effective vs other high tiers
- Over Peach due to speed, power and tech ceiling; suffers from recovery and not quite as good as Spacies while not having Sheik's projectile
- Still high tier but overrated imo due to Armada. Lots of room for creativity though

- Can outspeed the rest of the cast below him, upsmash, good recovery. Less rooom for versatility keeps him below Peach
- Wobbling and slight disjoint, good power but suffers from SoPo

- Underrated, lots of tech potential from eggs DJ and parries, better range and power than the plumbers
-Still quite viable, excellent projectile and cape, suffers from recovery
- Wavedash shenanigans and upB

- Recovery and above average range plus charge shot but not spectacular otherwise, slightly overrated IMO
- Underrated IMO, has tools like upB and extra range that YL lacks allowing him to compete better vs Spacies and Marth. Versatility with Bombs, DownB setups and a better recovery put him above Ganon and Mario
- Very solid but relies on reads, tilts and air attacks are outstanding, hurt by his recovery and getting outsped in close, can get wrecked by top tiers but doesn't have something else like a projectile to bail him out
- Slightly overrated due to several pros using him as a secondary, does better than Link in several matchups, held back by limited kill options and his range puts him in danger from Spacies, Falcon et al.

- Overrated but not terrible, just doesn't have Doc's extra power or Pills, I'd take Ganon's kill power and the Links' range over him
-Overrated but pros can make him work, creative throw combos, hurt by his size and air options. He is the last character on my list who has a decent chance in the metagame IMO

- Underrated, fast tilts and good smashes, throws kill well, air attacks are not excellent and light, more tricks available to him than Roy
- Underrated, what Marth traits he has serves him well but doesn't make sense unless you think Marth is annoying (I sure do)
- Strange and light, I'd say that Roy does better realistically due to a more intuitive moveset.

- Not last place and underrated, his gimps help a bunch against top tiers, smashes are decent, still at a big disadvantage, just fast enough vs top tiers but lacks Pichu's drawbacks of mass, range and self damage
- Above the rest due to his speed, which at least allows a good Pichu to not get totally shut down against top tiers
- Powerful but clunky, overrated in today's meta, does not have the speed necessary to compete realistically
- Above Ness thanks to four good moves (fair, ftilt, upB, forwardB) and DJ, garbage otherwise but some can make him work
- Just doesn't have any real trait to put him above anybody else. Gets outrushed by top tiers, outpowered by them, recovery's not great, bat is slow but not powerful enough)


Also, I'm hesitant to use the common practice of labelling certain tiers as "viable" or "not viable" since it's in my opinion not fair to those who main mid to low tiers, and the line isn't quite clear enough to show who fits each classification. I do think after DK on my list there is a large gap between him and further down, but I'm not willing to just cast a blanket assumption on those characters either. Honestly it matters more that the top tiers will be used most regardless of overall roster viability, unless a given player chooses a character based on being a fan as opposed to tier placement.

Sorry but this tier list is so jank. Link is worse than YL. Hands down. Mario is defs better than him. Ness is VASTLY better than Bowser and Kirby. Kirby only has bair and nothing else.. Pichu gets DESTROYED AWFULLY shut down by low tiers because of his 0 options against them. Peach is WAYY better than CF, Peach's actually win nationals, CF's don't. Also Pikachu above IC's? Please. Roy is utter garbage. GW does way better. Just the idea of Link > Ganon is a ridiculous thought. Just because SAUS beat the Moon it doesn't mean ANYTHING. The Moon got bopped by Hungrybox's NESS! The Moon is TRASH against matchups he doesn't know.

Who do you guys think is better G&W or donkey kong?

DK.

 

[Comet7]

Sorry but this tier list is so jank. Link is worse than YL. Hands down. Mario is defs better than him. Ness is VASTLY better than Bowser and Kirby. Kirby only has bair and nothing else..
no. please educate yourself about a character before saying something as ridiculous as that. please say hi to his tilts and other aerials. (except lol nair)
Pichu gets DESTROYED AWFULLY shut down by low tiers because of his 0 options against them.
if pichu has zero options against other awful characters, then characters like falcon should never beat spacies.
Peach is WAYY better than CF, Peach's actually win nationals, CF's don't. Also Pikachu above IC's? Please. Roy is utter garbage. GW does way better. Just the idea of Link > Ganon is a ridiculous thought. Just because SAUS beat the Moon it doesn't mean ANYTHING. The Moon got bopped by Hungrybox's NESS! The Moon is TRASH against matchups he doesn't know.


DK.

most of this post is fine because i don't expect everyone to have the same opinion, but you seem to have some skewed ideas about low tiers.

 

[PK Illuminati]

most of this post is good, but you seem to have some skewed ideas about low tiers.

rip me

 

[Scaremonger]

Sorry but this tier list is so jank. Link is worse than YL. Hands down. Mario is defs better than him. Ness is VASTLY better than Bowser and Kirby. Kirby only has bair and nothing else.. Pichu gets DESTROYED AWFULLY shut down by low tiers because of his 0 options against them. Peach is WAYY better than CF, Peach's actually win nationals, CF's don't. Also Pikachu above IC's? Please. Roy is utter garbage. GW does way better. Just the idea of Link > Ganon is a ridiculous thought. Just because SAUS beat the Moon it doesn't mean ANYTHING. The Moon got bopped by Hungrybox's NESS! The Moon is TRASH against matchups he doesn't know.

You seem to really like yelling opinions without actually giving any reasoning behind them, interspersed with incorrect "facts" and faulty logic.

 

[Stratocaster]

Druggedfox beat Zhu (forget where, very recent)

DruggedFox beat Zhu at Scenic City Smash this weekend (Chattanooga, TN).

Zhu also lost to Abate, fyi. Both were 3-2 I believe. Zhu is talking about switching to Marth. I know because he played me with his Marth and said he wants to switch because of Marth's touch-of-death against space animals. His Falco is way better atm though.

Lasers do 8 frames of hitstun on every character and 4 frames of hitlag. I've never been able to find the correct files for Melee's projectiles, but from looking in the debug menu and stuff, I'm 99% sure they do 2 units of WDSK, which is the only way I can think of to make them have consistent stun across all weights. Falco's MAXIMUM frame advantage is +8, but realistically the +8 is not going to be achieved against almost any character.

Falco's laser hitboxes are within PlFc.co:
2c000003 012c0000 0000ff38 b49900a0 00000047
2c800003 012c0000 0000fc5b b49900a0 00000047
2d000003 012c0000 0000f97e b49900a0 00000047
2d800003 012c0000 0000f6a0 b49900a0 00000047

To save you the trouble, it's actually 5 WDSK (so it was the 1% chance of you being wrong I guess). Plugging it into Strongbad's calculator (remember 0 BK and 100 KBK) shows 9 frames of hitstun and 4 frames of hitlag (for Pichu or Bowser) for a total of 13 frames. I cannot confirm with the debug atm so perhaps the calculator is off by a frame for some reason. It also stales to do 1 less frame of hitlag after only 1 laser, but cannot stale beyond that.

So yeah, on topic though... Fox is the best character... Luigi must be pretty decent if Abate can beat Zhu's Falco and Cactuar's Fox. He's not amazing, but he's got to be in the Pikachu, Yoshi, Samus tier.

 

[kingPiano]

When you construct a tier list you have to decide before hand what your methodology is:

1) Is it all theoretical frame and hitbox data based? Even worse, is it TAS based?

2) Is it actually based on current Meta and placings? Are you weighing the fact that there is basically 1 Yoshi or Pikachu compared to the 1000s of Foxes? How do you account for upsets, MU knowledge, player skill level asymmetry, and consistency?

3) Did you re-make a MU chart based on #1 or #2 and the combined averages for all characters is what ranks them?

4) Do you only consider the viable top tiers to be included in the MU averages that counted toward placement?

5) Are your own local and regional biased results sneaking in? Is your local or regional scene super free?

6) Are you just flat out biased because you like certain characters and you have absolutely no experience or knowledge with any other characters even on a casual level? Have you even kept up on other characters respective mains and results before passing judgement?

 

[PK Illuminati]

You seem to really like yelling opinions without actually giving any reasoning behind them, interspersed with incorrect "facts" and faulty logic.

jeez sorry its not even like my opinions matter srry b

 

[EddyBearr]

Kirby Squad Unite.

I do find it funny, though. Some people say Kirby's only move is bair, some say only u-tilt, some say only d-tilt, some say only fair, some say only dair, some say only uair. Few acknowledge that Kirby has like 10 moves, with like 5 being quite good.

 

[Scaremonger]

Falco's laser hitboxes are within PlFc.co:
2c000003 012c0000 0000ff38 b49900a0 00000047
2c800003 012c0000 0000fc5b b49900a0 00000047
2d000003 012c0000 0000f97e b49900a0 00000047
2d800003 012c0000 0000f6a0 b49900a0 00000047

To save you the trouble, it's actually 5 WDSK (so it was the 1% chance of you being wrong I guess). Plugging it into Strongbad's calculator (remember 0 BK and 100 KBK) shows 9 frames of hitstun and 4 frames of hitlag (for Pichu or Bowser) for a total of 13 frames. I cannot confirm with the debug atm so perhaps the calculator is off by a frame for some reason. It also stales to do 1 less frame of hitlag after only 1 laser, but cannot stale beyond that.

Hmm... I tested a fresh laser awhile back against Bowser, Pichu, and Mario in debug mode. All 3 of them take 4 frames of hitstun and 8 frames of hitlag. The 4 frames of hitlag is pretty much unquestionable, because the lasers clearly do 3% damage, but they definitely do 8 frames of hitstun and not 9.

2 and 5 units of WDSK are the only points in the KB formula where stun will be the same for all weights. If the code is showing 5 units of WDSK, then it must have like .9 KBS or something changed there, because I'm 100% certain that it does 8 frames of hitstun after looking at it in the debug console.

Kirby Squad Unite.

I do find it funny, though. Some people say Kirby's only move is bair, some say only u-tilt, some say only d-tilt, some say only fair, some say only dair, some say only uair. Few acknowledge that Kirby has like 10 moves, with like 5 being quite good.

Kirby's ftilt is amazing. All of his tilts are pretty great, lol.

 

[ChainArmour712]

Sorry but this tier list is so jank. Link is worse than YL. Hands down. Mario is defs better than him. Ness is VASTLY better than Bowser and Kirby. Kirby only has bair and nothing else.. Pichu gets DESTROYED AWFULLY shut down by low tiers because of his 0 options against them. Peach is WAYY better than CF, Peach's actually win nationals, CF's don't. Also Pikachu above IC's? Please. Roy is utter garbage. GW does way better. Just the idea of Link > Ganon is a ridiculous thought. Just because SAUS beat the Moon it doesn't mean ANYTHING. The Moon got bopped by Hungrybox's NESS! The Moon is TRASH against matchups he doesn't know.


DK.

Thanks for your input, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. What I don't get is everyone just seems to say YL is better than Link when nobody gives a reason why. In my view, as a Link main, he is better for two reasons: first, YL has a shorter range so he has to compete head on with Spacies, Falcon, and Sheik who have both faster attacks and better kill options. Even on the Young Link boards they are frustrated because of this, they can't fight fire with a weaker fire. Link, on the other hand, has a bit of space to work with so while it's not nearly as good as Marth he can play some of the spacing and outrange his opponents. A less floaty jump allows him to land shffls easier which is a big help for mixing up attacks. Spin attack is a big deal too, helping immensely on KOs and edgeguards. UpB allows him to get kos when YL has to rely on Dair and Dsmash. I'll take moves that are a little slower but can outrange fox et al before attacks with about the same range but slower and weaker.

As for Mario and Ganondorf, Mario doesn't bring anything unique that gives him a real advantage versus top tiers. His moves are slower, he has the same range, a worse projectile, and a bad recovery versus them. He has the marth killing cape but otherwise he's straightforward. Like YL he won't win fighting the top tiers' game. Give me Link who at least has ranged sword attacks (with a highly abusable Uair) a good recovery with hookshot, better kill moves with Dair and upB and superior projectiles in Bombs and Rang over him any day. With Ganondorf it's closer and almost equal, but I believe Ganondorf's slow movement and poor recovery hinder him badly against his enemies. Sure read masters can exploit his powerful moves, but Ganon has no way to harass his opponents and range and lacks the speed of Falcon to make that not matter. Link possesses a safer recovery and slightly better range, and I think he edges out Ganon for the Bombs more than anything else.

For the lower tiers I'll admit I'm a bit less knowledgeable on them but I do have enough Bowser, M2 and Kirby experience to say there are definitely bright points to those characters. Bowser has UpB and a very good fair attack as his highlights so while he's atrocious he isn't last place. Kirby's smash attacks are decent (some of his only good moves) and his jumps are enough to play him like a bad jigglypuff which is a good thing vs. recoveries like Marth, Falco, Falcon, and Sheik. So, he isn't last place either. Roy at least has some Marth DNA in him which realistically translates to make him better than GW for the majority of players. Ness has a punishable recovery, not great range, not particularly fast attacks and not exceptionally powerful either. He doesn't have any bright spots to allow me to put him above anyone else besides maybe Pichu. Falcon has the speed necessary to fight top tiers and Peach doesn't; that Peach who beat Saus was good but I don't remember a Peach not named Armada winning a national- Armada himself has said how difficult it is to keep her moving. Falcons are always in the mix and probably rack up more wins than Peach. Pikachu and ICs is close but I would say Pika's speed and recovery give him an edge especially if more players learn to counter ICs by targeting Nana. Again, most players will have better results picking Pika over ICs.

The Moon still picked Marth and lost, vs. Saus' Link who is good but nowhere near optimized. The peach match went to the last stock and could have easily gone either way. Had Saus' punish game been better, he could have easily nailed that Peach with a Dsmash or upB and won the set. In the future, as more Links practice and improve I would not be surprised to see him rise two spots on the tier list; realistically I'd put him even with Samus on my list. What I do get irritated with is those who put Link as non-viable and put him on a whole tier lower than YL. It's not like I'm putting him up with Marth or anything.


TL;DR: Thanks for your input, I know Link is underrated and we'll agree to disagree.

 

[kaz99]

Here's what I voted for

S Tier
1.
2.
3.
4.

A Tier
5.
6.
7.
8.

B Tier
9.
10.
11.

C Tier
12.
13.
14.
15.

D Tier
16.
17.
18.
19.

F Tier
20.
21.
22.
23.
24.
25.
26.

 

[Stratocaster]

Hmm... I tested a fresh laser awhile back against Bowser, Pichu, and Mario in debug mode. All 3 of them take 4 frames of hitstun and 8 frames of hitlag. The 4 frames of hitlag is pretty much unquestionable, because the lasers clearly do 3% damage, but they definitely do 8 frames of hitstun and not 9.

2 and 5 units of WDSK are the only points in the KB formula where stun will be the same for all weights. If the code is showing 5 units of WDSK, then it must have like .9 KBS or something changed there, because I'm 100% certain that it does 8 frames of hitstun after looking at it in the debug console.

So now that I'm home I figured out the discrepancy. I used Magus's mod which can actually shows the number of frames of hitstun and hitlag in real time. It should hitstun as 9 and hitlag as 4, BUT the last frame of hitlag and the first frame of hitstun are the same. It counted down like this:

Spoiler

lag/stun:
4/9
3/9
2/9
1/9
0/8
0/7
0/6
0/5
0/4
0/3
0/2
0/1

1 goes to 0 and 9 goes to 8 on the same frame, so the effectively the total is 12 even though the lag is 4 and hitstun is 9.

 

[EddyBearr]

Kirby's smash attacks are decent (some of his only good moves) and his jumps are enough to play him like a bad jigglypuff which is a good thing vs. recoveries like Marth, Falco, Falcon, and Sheik. So, he isn't last place either.

Kirby definitely isn't the worst, but those just aren't valid reasons for placing Kirby higher than other bottom tiers. Kirby's USmash and F-Smash are some of his worst normal moves, and his d-smash is only decent. Likewise, Kirby absolutely should't be played like Jigglypuff --- Kirby is a ground-based character. Beyond that, Kirby generally should not jump out at opponents recovering because he does not have the aerial mobility to do that consistently or safely.

 

[kingPiano]

Kirby definitely isn't the worst, but those just aren't valid reasons for placing Kirby higher than other bottom tiers. Kirby's USmash and F-Smash are some of his worst normal moves, and his d-smash is only decent. Likewise, Kirby absolutely should't be played like Jigglypuff --- Kirby is a ground-based character. Beyond that, Kirby generally should not jump out at opponents recovering because he does not have the aerial mobility to do that consistently or safely.

Being his worst normals moves is sort of indicitive of just how good his normals actually are, since over all his smashes are actually still pretty good. His tilts are just that amazing though

Up-smash sweet spot is amazing after a jab reset, can combo into itself and even into Upair. It's also great when they are above you on platforms since it covers such a large area (Up-tilt is faster ofc). It's definitely too slow to just throw out though, but that sweetspot is almost as powerful as Fox's Upsmash.

Down Smash is actually quite amazing. Inner hit box can or kill floaties early, outer hitboxes act just like Spacies down smash, low angle high KB (very good on edge guaard). And it last so long and covers both side simultaneously that it can cover so much area on tech rolls and chases. It's also comes out frame 7 so I use it quite often as a CC move if Dtilt won't cover.

Fsmash I could understand people not thinking is good since the hit boxes are not too generous, but it's weak late hit box is a pretty easy combo starter and it lunges forward making the strong hit fairly easy to hit. It's also not as weak as most incorrectly claim, can still KO Fox from center FD at 115% and Falcon at 130%

 

[EddyBearr]

Being his worst normals moves is sort of indicitive of just how good his normals actually are, since over all his smashes are actually still pretty good. His tilts are just that amazing though

Up-smash sweet spot is amazing after a jab reset, can combo into itself and even into Upair. It's also great when they are above you on platforms since it covers such a large area (Up-tilt is faster ofc). It's definitely too slow to just throw out though, but that sweetspot is almost as powerful as Fox's Upsmash.

Down Smash is actually quite amazing. Inner hit box can start combos or kill floaties, outer hitboxes act just like Spacies down smash, low angle high KB. And it last so long and covers both side simultaneously that it can cover so much area on tech rolls and chases. It's also comes out frame 7 so I use it quite often as a CC move if Dtilt won't cover.

Fsmash I could understand people not thinking is good since the hit boxes are not too generous, but it's weak late hit box is a pretty easy combo starter and it lunges forward making the strong hit fairly easy to hit. It's also not as weak as most incorrectly claim, can still KO Fox from center FD at 115% and Falcon at 130%

Speaking with Triple R at a tournament on Sunday, somehow the topic of "how to make Kirby better" came out, and I said "make his smash attacks better." Triple R responded with "His down-smash is okay".

Kirby's F-Smash is just very bad unless you get a jab reset.
Kirby's D-Smash is okay. It's not as good as Fox/Falco, or Doc or Luigi, or Sheik or Zelda, but it's decent. Probably middle of the cast. I absolutely don't believe the inner hitbox can start combos.
Kirby's U-Smash is pretty poor. It should not be able to combo into itself given how long it is alongside Kirby's bad range and mobility, completely unlike Fox or other characters who can chain their up-smashes. Okay for killing after a jab reset.

Kirby probably has a bottom 10 F-Smash and a bottom 10 U-Smash. They're just slow, laggy, with poor hitboxes, and don't work with the character design very well.

I think Kirby has one of the best up-tilts in the game. I'd say his D-tilt and F-tilts are "good" but not best in the game.

 

[kingPiano]

Speaking with Triple R at a tournament on Sunday, somehow the topic of "how to make Kirby better" came out, and I said "make his smash attacks better." Triple R responded with "His down-smash is okay".

Kirby's F-Smash is just very bad unless you get a jab reset.
Kirby's D-Smash is okay. It's not as good as Fox/Falco, or Doc or Luigi, or Sheik or Zelda, but it's decent. Probably middle of the cast. I absolutely don't believe the inner hitbox can start combos.
Kirby's U-Smash is pretty poor. It should not be able to combo into itself given how long it is alongside Kirby's bad range and mobility, completely unlike Fox or other characters who can chain their up-smashes. Okay for killing after a jab reset.

Kirby probably has a bottom 10 F-Smash and a bottom 10 U-Smash. They're just slow, laggy, with poor hitboxes, and don't work with the character design very well.

I think Kirby has one of the best up-tilts in the game. I'd say his D-tilt and F-tilts are "good" but not best in the game.

Alright EddyBearr believe what you want brother, but you also said in the 2013 discussion that Mew2King is clueless about the Kirby MU and Kirby in general "Mew2king absolutely did not know the matchup. I will say this with utmost confidence as someone who is forced to know the matchup to ever get better than 3rd at a local. I was very surprised by it too, but yeah, M2K doesn't know about Kirby."

....yet since 2007-8 he was known as the Kirby killer and was active on the Kirby discussions for a bit. There are many vids of him wrecking competent Kirbys with Fox, Marth, and Sheik. So that was completely false. Triple R is doing amazing things with Kirby, but he still leaves a lot undeveloped and uses sub optimal punishes and edge guards a lot. Triple R actually was the one that was talking about late weak F-smash starting combos, I use it as well.

Kirby is also not an exclusively ground based character either. A lot of his neutral approach is fairs and bairs, frame traps with SHFFL Bairs > Utilts, and his fence of pain can end CF and spacies off stage at low percents. He does have a great ground game, but his air game when played correctly is just as good. Overall it of course isn't anywhere near most of the mid tiers, but still underrated at this point. His Dtilt I would say is much better than "good" since it can almost outspace Marth's and it can poke even Marth's sweetspot Up-B recovery as well as like 75% of the cast. Add in the fact that his Dtilt also keeps him in crouch which makes his hurtbox impervious to a lot of attacks.

 

[PK Illuminati]

Alright EddyBearr believe what you want brother, but you also said in the 2013 discussion that Mew2King is clueless about the Kirby MU and Kirby in general "Mew2king absolutely did not know the matchup. I will say this with utmost confidence as someone who is forced to know the matchup to ever get better than 3rd at a local. I was very surprised by it too, but yeah, M2K doesn't know about Kirby."

....yet since 2007-8 he was known as the Kirby killer and was active on the Kirby discussions for a bit. There are many vids of him wrecking competent Kirbys with Fox, Marth, and Sheik. So that was completely false. Triple R is doing amazing things with Kirby, but he still leaves a lot undeveloped and uses sub optimal punishes and edge guards a lot. Triple R actually was the one that was talking about late weak F-smash starting combos, I use it as well.

Kirby is also not an exclusively ground based character either. A lot of his neutral approach is fairs and bairs, frame traps with SHFFL Bairs > Utilts, and his fence of pain can end CF and spacies off stage at low percents. He does have a great ground game, but his air game when played correctly is just as good. Overall it of course isn't anywhere near most of the mid tiers, but still underrated at this point. His Dtilt I would say is much better than "good" since it can almost outspace Marth's and it can poke even Marth's sweetspot Up-B recovery as well as like 75% of the cast. Add in the fact that his Dtilt also keeps him in crouch which makes his hurtbox impervious to a lot of attacks.

tldr first 2 paragraphs:
''you said something stupid two years ago therefor your opinion means nothing!!!!!1''
@ EddyBearr

 

[kingPiano]

tldr first 2 paragraphs:
''you said something stupid two years ago therefor your opinion means nothing!!!!!1''
@ EddyBearr

It wasn't 2 years ago it was a few weeks ago, in the 2013 Tier List discussion. Kids on this site.....I tell ya

 

[EddyBearr]

tldr first 2 paragraphs:
''you said something stupid two years ago therefor your opinion means nothing!!!!!1''
@ EddyBearr

I actually said this within the last few months because of Mew2King vs Triple R at The Great Revival.

I will remain staunch that M2K did not know the matchup -- from grabbing crouching Kirby, to f-tilting crouching Kirby, to DI'ing the back-throw in the wrong way making the u-air guaranteed (though Triple R messed this up).
But just to cement myself, let me give you a thorough review of the entire match.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKPXg2v6R9w

-0:20-0:22 Mew2King was doing shorthop bair to cover a potential jump from Kirby. The problem is that Kirby wasn't going to jump, Kirby was going to crouch in that position, aiming for d-tilt or grab. Guess what happened? Triple R crouched, d-tilted, and eventually grabbed.
-0:25-0:29 Nairs and Bairs against Kirby who isn't going to jump, again.
-0:58 Triple R gets a b-throw and Mew2King DI's in a way that makes uair guaranteed. Triple R flubs it, but there was no reason for M2K to DI like that, ESPECIALLY near the ledge where uair would have likely KO'd.
-1:12 Mew2King tries to shield-grab a crouching Kirby. There was absolutely no reason to do this.
-1:30 Mew2King positions himself to get d-tilted off stage. There's no excuse.
-1:38 Mew2King doesn't angle his shield to cover Kirby's D-Smash, which would clearly KO right there
-1:51 Up-tilt into itself is the absolute most basic Kirby combo. Mew2King didn't DI at all for these. There is no excuse.
-2:00 Mew2King underestimates Kirby's horizontal air speed with fairs, and lets Triple R recover for free. By the time he decides to cover, which would have been right without fairs, Triple R was already back. Any Sheik who knows the match up would position for bair, not charge needles.
-3:13 Dair was never going to combo.
-3:43 Sheik fair is not going to beat Kirby D-Smash on the ledge without invincibility. No Sheik should challenge it like that.
-5:04: Not only was he combo ignoring the d-tilt (and thus got hit by it), but he tried to f-tilt a Kirby that was already crouching. This was never going to hit. There is no excuse.
-6:54 This is worse than trying to grab crouching Kirby with Sheik.
-7:43 This is possibly excused as M2K losing a small mindgame, but even if it landed, I don't think Kirby's hurtbox is large enough to prevent smash DI'ing out.
-8:08 Again, disrespecting Kirby's D-Smash.

Even if Mew2King was sandbagging for a lot of things, like the dair at 3:13 or charging needles instead of covering options, I see no excuse whatsoever for the flubs against crouch, or the openings into KO's, even if sandbagging. Just because M2K has posted on Smashboards doesn't mean he knows how to play against a legitimate Kirby player. Just because M2K beat 2008 Kirby doesn't mean he knows how 2015 Kirby plays. Heck, just watch his play during the match -- it was clear M2K was learning and trying new things to see what works during it.
Sheik-Kirby is a matchup I have to know thoroughly, given that the the most active tourney-goer and 5th best player in the state is Triple R. I play against Triple R, and watch VODs of my own play against him whenever available, to learn how to consistently beat him. I put effort into learning what Sheik can and can't do against Kirby, how their hitboxes are going to interact, what Kirby is going to want to do. I'm by no means some authoritative expert on this matchup, but it's definitely a matchup I know. I'm not nearly the same level of player as Triple R, but I still have a win on him in tournament from thinking of how to abuse his character.

@ kingPiano I don't care if you've been playing Kirby for a month and a half, beating whatever randoms in whatever random scene you're from, but that doesn't suddenly make you know all that much about Kirby. It's nice that you know at least a little bit about Kirby, but your arrogance in this regard is hardly merited.

As for Kirby's d-tilt. It's good. Fox, Falco (maybe), Sheik (because of what follows), Marth, Roy, and Mr. Game & Watch all have better d-tilts. Kirby's is probably the next best, which is definitely good, but 6th or 7th in the game is probably just "good" in the grand scheme of d-tilts,at least to me.

 

[kingPiano]

I actually said this within the last few months because of Mew2King vs Triple R at The Great Revival.

I will remain staunch that M2K did not know the matchup -- from grabbing crouching Kirby, to f-tilting crouching Kirby, to DI'ing the back-throw in the wrong way making the u-air guaranteed (though Triple R messed this up).
But just to cement myself, let me give you a thorough review of the entire match.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKPXg2v6R9w

0:20-0:22 Mew2King was doing shorthop bair to cover a potential jump from Kirby. The problem is that Kirby wasn't going to jump, Kirby was going to crouch in that position, aiming for d-tilt or grab. Guess what happened? Triple R crouched and eventually grabbed. 0:25-0:29 Nairs and Bairs against Kirby who isn't going to jump, again.
0:58 Triple R gets a b-throw and Mew2King DI's in a way that makes uair guaranteed. Triple R goes flubs it, but there was no reason for M2K to DI like that, ESPECIALLY near the ledge where uair would have likely KO'd.
1:12 Mew2King tries to shield-grab a crouching Kirby. There was absolutely no reason to do this.
1:30 Mew2King positions himself to get d-tilted off stage. There's no excuse.
1:38 Mew2King doesn't angle his shield to cover Kirby's D-Smash, which would clearly KO right there
1:51 Up-tilt into itself is the absolute most basic Kirby combo. Mew2King didn't DI at all for these. There is no excuse.
2:00 Mew2King underestimates Kirby's horizontal air speed with fairs, and lets Triple R recover for free. By the time he decides to cover, which would have been right without fairs, Triple R was already back. Any Sheik who knows the match up would position for bair, not charge needles.
3:13 Dair was never going to combo.
3:43 Sheik fair is not going to beat Kirby D-Smash on the ledge without invincibility. No Sheik should challenge it like that.
5:04: Not only was he combo ignoring the d-tilt (and thus got hit by it), but he tried to f-tilt a Kirby that was already crouching. This was never going to hit. There is no excuse.
6:54 This is worse than trying to grab crouching Kirby with Sheik.
7:43 This is possibly excused as M2K losing a small mindgame, but even if it landed, I don't think Kirby's hurtbox is large enough to prevent smash DI'ing out.
8:08 Again, disrespecting Kirby's D-Smash.

Even if Mew2King was sandbagging for a lot of things, like the dair at 3:13 or charging needles instead of covering options, I see no excuse whatsoever for the flubs against crouch, or the openings into KO's, even if sandbagging. Just because M2K has posted on Smashboards doesn't mean he knows how to play against a legitimate Kirby player. Just because M2K beat 2008 Kirby doesn't mean he knows how 2015 Kirby plays. Heck, just watch his play during the match -- it was clear M2K was learning and trying new things to see what works during it.
Sheik-Kirby is a matchup I have to know thoroughly, given that the the most active tourney-goer and 5th best player in the state is Triple R. I play against Triple R, and watch VODs of my own play against him whenever available, to learn how to consistently beat him. I put effort into learning what Sheik can and can't do against Kirby, how their hitboxes are going to interact, what Kirby is going to want to do. I'm by no means some authoritative expert on this matchup, but it's definitely a matchup I know. I'm not nearly the same level of player as Triple R, but I still have a win on him in tournament from thinking of how to abuse his character.

@ kingPiano I don't care if you've been playing Kirby for a month and a half, beating whatever randoms in whatever random scene you're from, but that doesn't suddenly make you know all that much about Kirby. It's nice that you know at least a little bit about Kirby, but your arrogance in this regard is hardly merited.

As for Kirby's d-tilt. It's good. Fox, Falco (maybe), Sheik (because of what follows), Marth, Roy, and Mr. Game & Watch all have better d-tilts. Kirby's is probably the next best, which is definitely good, but 6th or 7th in the game is probably just "good" in the grand scheme of d-tilts,at least to me.

You talk about Kirby's crouch as if it's something that is always extremely obvious and predictable. That's like saying M2K should know when someone is going to shield, stop shielding, or dash 100% of the time. Kirby's crouch is near instant and it doesn't have any lag like dropping shield or being forced to do OoS options. That shield grab Mew2King was making a read predicting that Triple R would move, shield, or try and jump/attack. I don't see what critical MU knowledge that would have helped? Should a Sheik never even try and grab or needle? I had talked with Nizro a while back and he was saying some of the top Sheiks he would play against say it's even, most Kirby's seem to think it's 40:60 or even the most pessimistic thinking it's 35:65. There doesn't seem to be any huge edge Sheik has on Kirby that I'm aware of aside from just being faster, Triple R wasn't exactly playing his best and he was making obvious MU mistakes and he plays Sheiks all the time. He was using Down-B (stone) and landing on stage and sitting there, was Bair'ing in the wrong directions, missing easy Up-airs, using up all his jumps floating down and dying because of it, he SD'ed like 3 times, didn't copy Sheik's ability in the first set.

I'm glad you recognize Kirby's abilities are also somewhat backing him. I'm not being arrogant, just expressing my opinions. If something is a bit overstated or BS I will voice my thoughts on it, same goes for your comment about "a month and a half" and randoms (who's being arrogant and presumptuous now?). I've been playing him seriously at tourneys for like 4 months now (as I already said), but I've played him for years as a handicap when I got too good for my friends with my mains. I do now realize that perhaps I chose the wrong word in describing Kirby's smashes, I just meant they are good for where he is on the current tier list. They certainly can be used and most I feel are given a much worse reputation than they actually deserve even if they aren't nearly as good as his tilts. Something that I hear from commentators a ton is "oh Kirby's F-smash is just so bad it got nerfed hard from N64, no KO potential" and then it'll kill a Fox at 120% from the center of larger stages and 90% on Yoshi's....then they are like ".....oh, well then" same goes for Up-air, last hit Fair, Bair, and most of the smashes and other moves. In that very match the commentator incorrectly said that Kirby's crouch only evades Sheik's grab for the initial few frames of the animation....not true at all there are only 2-3 frames every 10 seconds where Kirby turns a bit while crouched where he can get grabbed. Things like how D-smash and ground hit Fair have serious shield poke properties, and ground hit fair pops up for combos....there are so many things.

Anyways back to the tier list discussion, didn't mean to derail.

 

[Scaremonger]

@ kingPiano , I didn't read most of your argument, but as another guy who plays Kirby in tournament, pretty much all of what Eddybearr is saying is correct while the things you're saying really show that you never play this character and are only arguing because... uh... actually, I really can't tell why you're arguing, or what you're trying to prove. You're arguing about something that you really don't know anything about at all and then act all condescending towards everyone and say "Kids on this site" and **** when you're being a giant contrarian and are just completely out of your element.

 

[kingPiano]

@ kingPiano , I didn't read most of your argument, but as another guy who plays Kirby in tournament, pretty much all of what Eddybearr is saying is correct while the things you're saying really show that you never play this character and are only arguing because... uh... actually, I really can't tell why you're arguing, or what you're trying to prove. You're arguing about something that you really don't know anything about at all and then act all condescending towards everyone and say "Kids on this site" and **** when you're being a giant contrarian and are just completely out of your element.

Yep 100% true as usual scaremonger, nice touch with not reading anything but replying to it all on assumption. That's exactly what PK Illuminati did. Might want to go back and read all the posts you've made so far in this thread, you basically just described yourself there. And if you actually play Kirby in tournament and think everything I've said is wrong, then you might be playing the wrong Smash game.

 

[Scaremonger]

Yep 100% true as usual scaremonger, nice touch with not reading anything but replying to it all on assumption. That's exactly what PK Illuminati did. Might want to go back and read all the posts you've made so far in this thread, you basically just described yourself there. And if you actually play Kirby in tournament and think everything I've said is wrong, then you might be playing the wrong Smash game.

I mean, you're saying things that are just... factually wrong. I stopped reading slightly after you said Kirby's upsmash was a good combo move, lol. The thing about it is that you're being super condescending with your incorrect information and "Feb 2015" join date. It'd be different if you were wrong while not also being an ass about it.

I play Kirby in tournament because I like the character and use him in tournament sets that I don't care about/know are free/want to have fun in. Ironically, after you complained about people making assumptions, I am not actually a Kirby main.

 

[kingPiano]

I mean, you're saying things that are just... factually wrong. I stopped reading slightly after you said Kirby's upsmash was a good combo move, lol. The thing about it is that you're being super condescending with your incorrect information and "Feb 2015" join date. It'd be different if you were wrong while not also being an *** about it.

I play Kirby in tournament because I like the character and use him in tournament sets that I don't care about/know are free/want to have fun in. Ironically, after you complained about people making assumptions, I am not actually a Kirby main.

Didn't say is was a good combo move I just said it can combo into itself after a jab reset (works on Falco and Fox and different percentages), and it can lead into an Up-air or Up-tilt.

You seem quite immature, so if you're done making troll posts that have nothing to do with the tier list I suggest we get back to the topic as I already said like 5 posts ago before you butted in.