Meta 2015 Community Tier List Voting

[Spak]

why would people overrate the Doc, she is an inspiration to children imo

Because he spends too much time eating chocolate.

 

[KillerGum]

A tier list (in my opinion) should be a reflection of who has the best matchups rather than a reflection of recent tournament success. It is also assumed that all players know every matchup. Be aware of this when reading my list.

Note: When I say "major tournament" I mean something like Apex or Evo, where 95% of the high level players are in attendance.

S: Most viable to win a major tournament.

1. Fox

2. Falco

3. Sheik

4. Marth


Significant drop in viability.


A: Able to win a major tournament.

5. Puff

6. Captain Falcon

7. Peach


A-: One in a million chance to win a major tournament.

8. Samus

9. Doctor Mario

10. Pikachu

11. Ice Climbers


Not viable to win major tournaments.


B+: Just barely not viable.

12. Luigi

13: Yoshi


B: Does well in certain matchups or doesn't have a god-awful matchup spread, but definitely not viable.

14: Mario

15: Young Link

16: Ganondorf


C: Same thing as before but worse.

17: Link

18: Donkey Kong

19: Zelda


D: Has a few redeeming qualities but still crappy.

20: Mr. Game & Watch

21: Roy

22: Pichu


F: Whatever good things these characters may have are completely voided by their other awful attributes.

23: Kirby

24: Ness

25: Mewtwo

26: Bowser

Feel free to disagree with me, I’m always down for a debate.

 

[rty1001]

S - Viable.
1. Fox
2. Marth
3. Falco
4. Sheik
5. Jiggly
6. Falcon
7. Peach
A - Semi-Viable.
8. Samus
9. Ice Climbers
10. Pikachu
11. D. Mario
A- - Semi-Semi-Viable.
12. Luigi
13. Ganondorf
14. Yoshi
15. Y. Link
B - Has little viability against unfamiliar match-ups, otherwise not too much of a wise choice for major tournaments.
16. Link
17. Donkey Kong
18. Zelda
19. Game and Watch
C - Very little viability, not recommended for major tournaments.
20. Roy
21. Pichu
D - No viability.
22. Mewtwo
23. Ness
24. Bowser
25. Kirby

 

[Woohoo982]

S Tier
Have very good attributes and very few bad points. Extremely Viable.
1: Falco
2: Fox
3: Sheik
4: Jigglypuff

A Tier
Have lots of good points but have a few exploitable bad points. Really Viable.
5: Marth
6: Peach
7: Captain Falcon
8: Pikachu
9: Ice Climbers

B Tier
Have many good points, but more crippling bad points. Viable.
10: Samus
11: Luigi
12: Dr Mario
13: Yoshi

C Tier
Have about an equal amount of good and bad points.Not THAT Viable.
14: Mario
15: Ganondorf
16: Young Link

D Tier
Have a few good points, but a lot of bad points. Not really Viable.
17: Link
18: Mr Game & Watch
19: Donkey Kong

E Tier
Have very few good points in comparison to their bad ones. Not Viable.
20: Pichu
21: Roy
22: Ness
23: Kirby

F Tier
Not viable at all, under any circumstances unless you are beast with these characters. Just bad in general.
24: Mewtwo
25: Bowser
26: Zelda
-------
Top Tier:
High Tier:
Mid Tier:
Low-Mid Tier:
Bottom Tier:

 

[Spoice]

So Marth over Falco, what does everyone think about that?

 

[EddyBearr]

A tier list (in my opinion) should be a reflection of who has the best matchups rather than a reflection of recent tournament success. It is also assumed that all players know every matchup. Be aware of this when reading my list.

Note: When I say "major tournament" I mean something like Apex or Evo, where 95% of the high level players are in attendance.

S: Most viable to win a major tournament.

1. Fox

2. Falco

3. Sheik

4. Marth


Significant drop in viability.


A: Able to win a major tournament.

5. Puff

6. Captain Falcon

7. Peach


A-: One in a million chance to win a major tournament.

8. Samus

9. Doctor Mario

10. Pikachu

11. Ice Climbers


Not viable to win major tournaments.


B+: Just barely not viable.

12. Luigi

13: Yoshi


B: Does well in certain matchups or doesn't have a god-awful matchup spread, but definitely not viable.

14: Mario

15: Young Link

16: Ganondorf


C: Same thing as before but worse.

17: Link

18: Donkey Kong

19: Zelda


D: Has a few redeeming qualities but still crappy.

20: Mr. Game & Watch

21: Roy

22: Pichu


F: Whatever good things these characters may have are completely voided by their other awful attributes.

23: Kirby

24: Ness

25: Mewtwo

26: Bowser

Feel free to disagree with me, I’m always down for a debate.

If it's matchup based, which I agree with, then it should put weight on the best and/or most used characters. Thus, the spacies matchup should be most important, then Marth/Sheik/Peach/Falcon, then... etc.

In that sense, Falcon blows: He's awful against Fox/Falco/Sheik.
Marth does far better than Sheik against Spacies.
Peach can compete with any character.
Ice Climbers do way better than any other 7-13 character against spacies and Sheik. They only really have huge trouble with Peach -- so how important Peach is is what matters for IC's.
Pikachu's matchups are awful, but possibly better than Luigi's. Definitely not as good as IC's matchups.
Young Link can not compete with with Fox, Falco, Sheik, and arguably Marth & Falcon as well. Ganon can at least sometimes compete with them, and always can compete with at least Marth.
Kirby's has a far better matchup spread than basically any other bottom 6 character -- far better than Pichu's.

 

[Spoice]

Peach can compete with any character.

I don't really see a lot of players use Peach other than VA and Armada, is that statement mostly because of Armada? To be honest, it's fairly obvious Peach has difficulties, the majority of the time, against the other characters in the top 8,I think the reason she seems so good is because Armada is just that good and know what to do to counter a playstyle like Mango's or Mew2king's, not the character.

 

[KillerGum]

If it's matchup based, which I agree with, then it should put weight on the best and/or most used characters. Thus, the spacies matchup should be most important, then Marth/Sheik/Peach/Falcon, then... etc.

In that sense, Falcon blows: He's awful against Fox/Falco/Sheik.
Marth does far better than Sheik against Spacies.
Peach can compete with any character.
Ice Climbers do way better than any other 7-13 character against spacies and Sheik. They only really have huge trouble with Peach -- so how important Peach is is what matters for IC's.
Pikachu's matchups are awful, but possibly better than Luigi's. Definitely not as good as IC's matchups.
Young Link can not compete with with Fox, Falco, Sheik, and arguably Marth & Falcon as well. Ganon can at least sometimes compete with them, and always can compete with at least Marth.
Kirby's has a far better matchup spread than basically any other bottom 6 character -- far better than Pichu's.

Looking back at it I'm not sure why I put Sheik over Marth lol. I'm pretty sure I just really like Sheik.

Falcon and Peach was a tossup, but I think Falcon does well enough against spacies and has overall great mobility allowing him to outmaneuver most characters, so I put him at 6th.

I'm under the impression that ICs get bodied by Fox, Falcon, and Peach, lose badly to Marth, lose to Falco, Puff, and Samus, and only go even with Sheik, have a slight edge over Doc, and destroy Pika. You are probably more experienced with ICs than me though. I agree with your point on Pikachu's matchups though. At best I would be okay with putting ICs over Pikachu at 10th.

Maybe I valued YL's matchups against floaties too much, but I think Ganon's matchup with Falco is the same as YL's and I think Ganon has a worse matchup against sheik. I also think the fact that YL has two good projectiles, decently quick aerials, a nair out of shield, and a much better recovery make him more versatile than Ganon in most matchups.

I have very little experience with Kirby and the bottom tier in general so I just based my placing of him off of what I've seen you say about him lol. I think Kirby has some good tools, but his lack of mobility compared to Pichu makes me doubt him being higher. I also think Pichu has more tools in general with nair, upair, bair, uptilt, downtilt, forward tilt's weird priority, thunderjolt, and upsmash.

I should have made this clear before, but I also think If you have a (near) unwinnable matchup against any well-used character at top level, that drops your stock a lot. (Pun kind of intended) That's why I have ICs so low. I really wish ICs could be better because I like them as a character and concept, but they are so exploitable by some characters that it makes it hard for me to see them much higher on my list. I'd like to hear your thoughts on ICs' matchups though. Might change my perspective.

 

[KillerGum]

I don't really see a lot of players use Peach other than VA and Armada, is that statement mostly because of Armada? To be honest, it's fairly obvious Peach has difficulties, the majority of the time, against the other characters in the top 8,I think the reason she seems so good is because Armada is just that good and know what to do to counter a playstyle like Mango's or Mew2king's, not the character.

If Armada can be successful with peach, that just proves that anyone else can. Also, check out MacD, really solid Peach main (albeit inconsistent), probably the best Peach after Armada. Peach has an uphill battle against most top tiers, but none are unwinnable.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

So Marth over Falco, what does everyone think about that?

I cannot see that happening.

 

[Spoice]

I cannot see that happening.

Care to elaborate?

 

[EddyBearr]

I don't really see a lot of players use Peach other than VA and Armada, is that statement mostly because of Armada? To be honest, it's fairly obvious Peach has difficulties, the majority of the time, against the other characters in the top 8,I think the reason she seems so good is because Armada is just that good and know what to do to counter a playstyle like Mango's or Mew2king's, not the character.

Proven by Armada.

Exhibited by: MacD, Vwins, Bladewise, DoH, Kalamazhu, among many more.

There's definitely a disparity between Armada and other Peach's, but even if Armada didn't exist, Peach has had better results than Falcon/IC's, and if we discount Hungrybox as well, then way better results than Jigglypuff.

Ice Climbers and Kirby

Everything else you said I can't really disagree with. I don't really agree, but y'know.

Kirby:
Comparing Kirby and Pichu's tools:
Kirby has better:
-Tilts (all 3), D-Smash, bair, fair, dair, grab, disjoint, priority, zoning, gimps, edgeguarding, defense
Pichu has better:
-U-Smash, nair, throws, recovery
They're comparable in:
-F-Smash, uair (Pichu's combos, Kirby's is combo'd into and is a KO move).
In terms of matchups, I think Kirby does better overall. I can't think of any good characters that Pichu does better against than Kirby. Kirby can at least play a neutral where he doesn't have to trade, whereas Pichu can easily be forced to trade in moves -- trades he will lose, especially given his light weight alongside faster falling speed.

Ice Climbers:
Fox: Fox wins, but I don't think it's that bad. IC's have good disjoint, a very strong punish game, decent edgeguarding, are difficult to pressure well, and have historically not been slaughtered by Foxes. I think Fly's Sopo vs Silent Wolf was caused not as much because Fly was playing out of his mind, or because of anything negative from Silent Wolf, but rather because Ice Climbers, even Sopo, have a legit game against Fox. Falcon gets wrecked by Fox, but he also stands a chance to win. I think IC's have an easier time against Fox because Fox isn't going to cleanly 0-to-death IC's like he will Falcon.
Falco: Falco's often complain that they lose the matchup. I think it's even. This is infinitely better than Falcon can say.
Sheik: Even sounds fair, though many Sheiks think they lose it to some extent. I think it's about even. Falcon loses quite handily. Strong gain for IC's over Falcon
Marth: Really, I don't know. IC's views seem very mixed on this, from Wobbles thinking it's worse than Peach.. to.. well, not really seeing many IC's echo that sentiment. I do think Marth beats Falcon slightly, but Marth would beat IC's more. At best for Falcon, I'd say this negates IC's gain against Fox.
Peach: IC's get destroyed (though it's winnable, as shown by many IC's. IC's rely on wobbling in the matchup, but wobbling makes it very winnable since Peach has to land eventually and have, at least, 4 frames landing lag alongside any start up. Very strong gain for Falcon, but I don't think it's enough to out-do Falco + Sheik gains for IC's, especially since I don't think Falcon actually wins this matchup (about even to me).
Puff: Falcon loses pretty handily -- I've seen a lot of IC's say they think IC's have the advantage. IC's have a strong disjoint against Puff, and Hbox has definitely lost to IC's disproportionately often. It's definitely not Puff favored, to say the least. Gain for IC's.
Falcon: Falcon beats IC's, but I think it's overstated how bad it is. We see Wobbles go extremely close against Mango's Falcon, and see players like Fly beat S2J. IC's disjoint hurts Falcon's lack of priority. Gain for Falcon.
IC's: Gain for Falcon.
Mid tiers, it starts to not matter, as there aren't that many players.

I once put this into numbers based on what matchup ratios I thought, alongside with % playerbase to figure out how many wins characters would gain in tournament. I recently erased that document, with intention to make it again later as I expanded upon my across-the-board matchup knowledge and with updated usage statistics, but when I did do it, IC's and Falcon were both significantly above the next best (Samus, did disproportionately well against Spacies but stopped winning past them, which added up quickly against Sheik/Marth/Falcon/Peach/Puff) but did comparably otherwise. I gave the edge to IC's because IC's were heavily dragged down by 1 atrocious matchup, whereas Falcon had consistently bad matchups.

 

[JBW2]

At first, I would have put Bowser lower, but after thinking it over, I realized that this is exactly how I'd rate this tier list. Once I saw that you put Marth 2nd, I had to keep reading. I also agree that Peach is higher than Puff. Here are my current thoughts on the future of Melee.

I feel by 2020, if not 2025, characters towards the top of the list will be optimized and the meta game at a halt, kind of like street fighter 4. This will give lead way for people to pick up other characters, because they know what's now exploitable. In other words, ~98-99.9% of the game is known, so players can objectively decide on which character is better based on how the game works, not results.There won't be much growth in game, but out of game, meaning more skilled players will be prominent in the scene. There will no longer be the 5 or 6 gods. instead, many will have the potential to win (which i am looking forward to).

Now, I think that Marth and Fox will always be top 2. There will definitely be some debate over the two. The meta game will improve so much that there'll be an SS-tier (master this character, or have it as a secondary) which will be Fox and Marth. Then, S-tier....I think Falco is doing really well, but something tells me that eventually he'll be figured out. Until the bad recovery is truly exploited somehow, I foresee him staying S-tier alone and sheik moving down to A tier. Falcon will most likely fall to the next tier too.

Basically, it will be a lot of shifting (moving down to the tier just under) as well as tier leaps like Peach/Pikachu have done in the past.

Please note that my tier list is based on what I have perceived in the past 2 years in terms of results and consistency. I do take character ability into consideration but my tier list is primarily based on what has been done and the capabilities of the characters already being shown in the past two years.

S-Tier: Characters with the absolute ability to win a national

1: Fox - Definitive best character due to his excessively good moves and his overwhelming representation in the current meta. His shine is his definitive best most because of its many uses including using to combo (i.e: waveshining) and gimp. Really flexible recovery methods as well as deadly combo ability. Only character in the game that can hit an opponent while recovering and kill off of it. When the character is pushed to its limits he becomes a menace to deal with.
2: Marth - We've seen numerous examples of Marth succeeding well in this meta moreso than the characters below him. With stellar performances by PPMD, PPU, and other top Marths, being able to handle Fox and Falco extremely well, and deadly punish games and amazingly flexible movement. He could use more representation but from what I've seen from really good Marths is a lot of consistency, and that's ultimately what matters.
3: Falco - With PPMD playing his Marth more recently than his Falco, and players like Westballz and Zhu struggling to be consistent in the current meta, it's hard for me to place Falco any higher. Mango is definitely the saving grace of this character as he shows he can consistently do very well vs Fox, putting him at #3.
4: Sheik - Until recently, Sheik wasn't represented too well and it seemed she was dying off, but now we have some recent and new changes from the Sheik meta, but they are not enough. I believe that Sheik could very well rise above Falco if there are more Sheiks that continue to push the character's meta into the future, but as for right now this is where I feel she belongs.

A Tier: Extremely solid characters that are on the cusp of winning a national

5: Peach - I'm putting Peach above Puff on my tier list simply because the players who have represented her have a much better time beating Foxes than Puff does. Because Peach has a better time vs Fox (as Evidenced by Armada still being able to keep toe-to-toe with Mango) and Puff has a harder time vs Fox (Hungrybox is often losing to Foxes that are ranked below him on MIOM top 100, as well as losing many games to other significantly lower-level Foxes). Peach and Puff do have one thing in common though and that is they deal with all of the other top tier characters very well. I am starting to see more Marths do well vs Peach but it is a very uphil battle for the Marth usually.
6: Jigglypuff - Extremely solid character with amazing recovery ability and punish game. If it weren't for Fox having such a solid matchup on this character, she would probably be higher.
7: Captain Falcon - This character hasn't changed too much in the past 2 years. The arguable best Falcon in the world left the character for Fox back in late 2013, though there are numerous efforts to make this character to be more developed in the current meta (i.e: 20GX). Falcon is staying where he is because there hasn't been a breakthrough performance from a Falcon or numerous Falcons yet. He still does very solidly but there hasn't been anything outstanding from what I've seen. He is likely to be more developed and possibly higher in the future, hell even as high as above Peach if there can be consistent results to back it up.

B Tier: Solid mid-tier characters that tend to do very well at nationals, but not necessarily win them

8: Ice Climbers - This character has really solid representation in the meta and with wobbling being a huge threat to many of the higher tiered characters, I thoroughly believe that ICs should be here on the tier list. Wobbles' performance at EVO 2013 was extremely stellar for the character, even if Wobbles himself has dropped off a bit from that performance. There are still many other ICs like Fly Amanita, Nintendude, DizzKidBoogie, etc. that do very well at almost any tournament they go to. ICs are not higher on the list because even though they do really well vs certain top tiers, they also do pretty badly vs Peach, Puff, Falcon (to a degree), and even Ganondorf. Because of the strength and weaknesses of the character colliding like this, I see the number 8 spot as a right place for this character.
9: Samus - This was a tough one. I had to think about choosing between Samus and Pikachu for this spot and I think Samus just barely comes out on top for a few good reasons: For starters, the players that represent her in the current meta are still loyal to her (the only exception being Plup). Both Hugs and Duck and other Samus mains have had really consistent results and have shown what the character has got. Samus' remarkably and arguable even matchup vs Fox surely shows with results against Leffen and other top Foxes. She's an extremely solid and unique character that with her heavy weight and amazing recovery make her awfully difficult to kill, yet she lacks a lot in the neutral, and the player playing as her has to be really smart about the decisions that they make.
10: Pikachu - Axe has absolutely shown that Pikachu is rather viable in this current meta. With rather consistent and outstanding performances like EVO 2014 and MLG 2014, he has done a lot to show the true potential of the character. However, the reasons I put Pikachu below Samus is because that there really isn't much representation besides Axe at the top level. And even Axe doesn't just purely main Pikachu anymore, often picking out his secondaries for his other matchups that he struggles with. This is one of those decisions that was made between this character and Samus purely on how well represented the character is in the current meta, because both have shown to do really well, honestly. If there was at least one more Pikachu that was Axe's level, then there would be a good chance that Pikachu could be above Samus next time.
11: Yoshi - This one should be the most obvious and the biggest leap in the tier list. We've seen in the past two years just what this character can really do thanks to aMSa. With a 9th place finish at APEX 2014, and a stellar 5th place finish at APEX 2015, as well as numerous other incredibly high placings, there is no doubt in my mind that this is where Yoshi should be on the tier list. He has had some rough results in Japan though, and many people speculate that Yoshi simply hasn't been figured out yet in the US, but in Japan they know better. But that is only speculation and it hasn't really shown through yet in the past two years. Yoshi has an amazing punish game, his double-jump armor is extremely useful and well utilized, and he has numerous tricks up his sleeve that he could pull out at any minute. I'd really like to see this character get better representation in the future, as it is clear that this character can go to great lengths and tango with the best. Yoshi isn't higher up mostly because of his representation and the fact that people truly don't know the matchup that well. Will he go down the tier list in the future? Or will he continue to go up? That will be something interesting to see for sure.

C+ Tier: Slightly better than C Tier. Capable of performing very well at nationals and winning regional tournaments

12: Luigi - This is where things start to get hairy and become a bit more subjective, so apologies if this opinion of mine is not one you agree with. Luigi has a relatively good representation at a high level, with players like Eddy Mexico, Abate, Vudujin, Blea Gelo etc. showing that this character can still perform rather well, even at nationals. Eddy Mexico's performance at the SSS that he won should definitely not be overlooked, but it is also not the complete basis for placing this character here. Luigi at times seems like he just falls short of really breaking into top 8 at a lot of major tournaments. I feel like with more development and better representation he can get to B tier easily.
13: Dr. Mario - This isn't a good day for the Doc. He's dropped a bunch mostly because of Shroomed switching his main to Sheik. Without Shroomed, Doc is so under-represented in the current meta that it's not even funny. There isn't another Doc out there that has come even close to what Shroomed has done, and now that that's gone, it's looking grim for the Doctor. He's a good character for sure, it's just his representation has dramatically increased, putting him below Luigi. I know that there are some aspiring Doc mains out there but none of them are high level as of yet. This character can still do it pretty well, we just need more people to play as him (Personally I find him to be really fun, almost considering maining him in the future in hopes of representing him better.)

C Tier: Characters that just barely aren't going to make it very far at a national level. Though they can perform fairly well, there are just some matchups that are nigh impossible for them to overcome

14: Ganondorf - This character is bad, let that not be any misconception. Although in my opinion a very good character to learn fundamentals with, Ganondorf is just not going to succeed in this meta all on his own. Ganondorf has some amazing representation and dedication to him, but even the top Ganondorfs have shown to be rather inconsistent at times. Bizzarro Flame has certainly gotten better and more noted, and Kage continues to be a solid player, but neither of these players have had any spectacular results in the last two years. They have certainly taken sets off of some really notable players, but eventually the Triforce of Power's energy comes to a halt later on in a bracket, with even Kage bringing out his secondary Falcon for certain stages. A common phrase I hear when people talk about Ganon is that everything that is to discover about him has already been discovered. While that might be true in theory, there is still a lot more that the current top Ganons could be doing to advance this character. Linguini was definitely on par with this kind of development, but he retired before it really be seen as the character's ability. Ganon's got some nice tools to use and he hits really hard, but his god-awful recovery, falling speed, slow moves, and slow running speed really hold him back, and it's really hard to see him get any better.
15: Link - Link has a lot of tools that he has at his disposal that make him a really unique and often difficult character to deal with if you don't know how to fight him. He's definitely the much better represented of the two Links in this current meta, and even has the ability to perform well in certain high tier matchups like Marth, Peach, Puff, and possibly others. He's got a really good recovery, being flexible and more often that not very hard to deal with or overcome or outspace. He's slow, but his projectiles are often his saving grace. H'es a very unique character that has to put in a lot of hard work in order to succeed, and we've seen certain cases of Link beating some notable players, but definitely not really any high placing at nationals. He often really falls short there.
16: Mario - Although much better represented than his PhD counterpart, he still falls short of his ability as a character, rather than his representation. He does have a better recovery than Doc though, but his killing ability is a huge setback for him. I honestly don't know whether to put Mario above Link or not, but because I'm basing this off of what has happened, I think Mario goes below. As far as I'm concerned, there are solid Mario players out there, but they haven't taken too many sets off of really notable players. Again, this is really subjective and I'm still not super sure, so if you want to debate this placement with me I can understand fully.
17: Donkey Kong - I've seen a few of the top DK mains have some notable success vs high level players. He's got long hitboxes, a great combo game on spacies and even other characters, a tricky recovery, and some other gimmicks that he has at his disposal. You're definitely going to have to keep on your toes vs a really solid DK player, but sadly many of DK's defensive options are poor, as well as having numerous moves that are very slow to come out. He's a rather fun character that can catch you off guard if you underestimate him.
18: Young Link - This character's placement has been controversial in the past because of what people believe is his ability as a character. Armada definitely made him look rather viable with his runs vs Hungrybox, but as of last year that is no longer the case, as Young Link has out-stayed his welcome. Sadly, this character also suffers from being very under-represented much like Dr. Mario, and his tier list placement suffers as a result. Yes, he is faster and has better projectiles than his older counterpart, but what he really lacks in is killing power, and the days of bomb to dair combos being deadly are likely to be no more, or at least until someone really gives this character a go again. Yes, I do believe the character itself has a lot of potential, it's just no one is maining him right now (Axe uses him from time to time but I'm not sure about YL development in general. Feel free to enlighten me if you know more).

D Tier: These characters are relatively bad but have some redeeming qualities or gimmicks about them that can make them hard to deal with. Very hard to win a regional, if not impossible.

19: Mr. Game & Watch - This character is at the top of this tier simply because of his representation and his rather decent offensive ability. Notorious for having the worst shield in the game, G&W has some redemption when it comes to his combo ability and disjointed hitboxes. He's also got a heck of a recovery, allowing him to go far off stage and still make it back. His biggest weaknesses are his light weight and falling speed, as well as his horrendous shield, not to mention that certain aerials of his cannot be l-canceled. It's cool that there are players like Qerb who try to keep this character alive and find some success with him. And because of that, I'm putting him at #19.
20: Zelda - She has some decent representation, but not enough activity in my opinion to warrant her above G&W. If Cosmo would still enter Melee tournaments regularly with this character then I would have reconsidered, but that isn't really the case at the moment. There have been some tricky things that Zelda has done over the past but nothing too extraordinary. She's a real defensive character with a deadly fair and bair, which is sadly her only real redeeming quality. Her terrible recovery makes it really easy to edgeguard her, not to mention that she is light and dies easily. She has really poor defensive options aside from spacing her moves right. She's got a lot of gimmicks that can definitely catch you off guard, and a smart Zelda player can make you afraid of her bair/fair, but unfortunately she just isn't really going to do very well, and I don't see her getting much better either.
21: Pichu - It's almost a meme when you think of how many times you hear people say that Pichu should be higher on the tier list, it's about time that I put that into consideration. Pichu admittedly is pretty bad but I don't believe he is god awful. His biggest weaknesses are that he hurts himself when he uses certain moves and that he's one of the lightest characters in the game, often dying at ungodly low percents. But people often forget that Pichu is basically the worse-off little brother of of Pikachu, and has some tools to do at least somewhat decently. Pichu is fast and actually has some decent aerials. He has a terrible tech roll, but his small size at times makes him hard to hit. Pichu can definitely get away with causing damage to himself if you use the right moves. I'm not a huge advocate for this character but I do feel like people give this character very little credit. Less credit than what is due.
22: Mewtwo - This character isn't really too bad. At first I was going to put him in F Tier, but then I thought for a minute about some of his redeeming qualities. He actually has some decent range on his attacks. He has an excellent recovery. He has a few powerful moves, albeit slow, and his movement is pretty decent as well. Sure he dies relatively early cause of his light weight, but I don't really see too much wrong with him. If there could be another Mewtwo like Taj then that would probably move him up by a significant margin, but that is not the case right now. I don't know too much about this character but it seems like to me that he isn't too bad. Oh wait. His tech animations are horrendous. He has hurtboxes on his freaking tail. Hmmmm. A hard one to call. Would like to see more exploration or representation of this character.
23: Bowser - This character has some neat tools and gimmicks that can keep him afloat, but he won't be lasting long. Bowser's Up-B out of shield is honestly one of his saving graces that make people think twice about attacking his shield. Sure, he is very slow and a huge target to hit, but a good Bowser player can have some pretty interesting tricks up their sleeve, and not to mention that Bowser is really heavy and can take a long time to die. He's got some combos here and there and his recovery isn't too bad, but again he's very gimmicky and isn't really going to get very far.

F Tier: These characters are completely trash. There is almost no hope for these characters in this meta and it is probably best that you play someone else

24: Ness - Poor guy. Terrible range. Arguably worst recovery in the game. Has only so few redeeming qualities. Ness is a weird character in which people claim that he really isn't as bad as he is, yet I'm having a hard time seeing it to be honest. He does have some cool Yo-Yo Glitch tricks that can potentially advance him as a character, but I haven't really seen these developments but put into application just yet. Ness should definitely go up if someone can really apply all the technology that has been found by him over the years.
25: Roy - God awful character. Truly one of the worst. He is pretty much the polar opposite of his Fire Emblem comrade, having his strong hits be at the center of his sword. He might as well be using a dagger for crying out loud. Wet Noodle is damn right, Roy hardly has hitstun on a lot of his aerials and he only manages to get a few hits at times. His weight is okay but his falling speed makes his aerial mobility off-stage pretty much non-existent. Sure, his recovery can be angled a bit better but it's still pretty damn bad. He's got some strong hits and whatnot but he's so susceptible to CC it's not even funny. Roy can definitely mess up some low level players but you're generally not gonna find many people even of mid-level losing to a Roy, that is unless it's Sethlon. Hell, even Sethlon doesn't want to give this character one final go for EVO this year anymore because he just doesn't enjoy him in any capacity. I don't know where people get off saying that Roy has untapped potential because I'm pretty sure Sethlon, Neo, and maybe some other Roys really gave it their best shot. I don't know. Maybe Roy has some small things that help him, like his counter maybe? Please enlighten me if there's something I'm forgetting here.
26: Kirby - This should be obvious. All around terrible character with virtually no redeemable qualities. He has some dumb suicide gimmicks that will only work on complete numbskulls. He has some other gimmicks but they just aren't enough to get him even remotely going anywhere. Bair is really his only good move. What more do I need to say?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Care to elaborate?

You gave everyone else such a short reply

Anyway, Falco/Marth have somewhat similar macro traits. Either of them have the ability to take a character to stock after a particular hit. However, Marth's ability is much more restricted in getting things started.

Due to CC, shield, and Marth's aerials he sort of has to be reliant upon grabs to get things started. This is not a super problem since he has the ability to get grabs. However, I think its depends upon having a good amount of stage to work with.

Falco on the other hand does not suffer these issues as much. Lasers sort of mitigate any thoughts of not having enough stage. At the same time they help set-up into getting grabs while still having the option to utilize SH aerial -> Shine to circumvent shield/cc threat of retaliation.

Falco's recovery I would say is better overall. Falco has a much greater range of recovery trajectories that Marth simply does not have access too at all. SideB to a platform (even better with platform canceling) is great at getting back to center stage quickly. While having canceling as well. Marth on the other hand often has to recover to the ledge, getting off the ledge, then trying to claim stage space again. All of these things Falco does better by getting to the ledge more quickly I-frames near the ledge, and lasers off the ledge to claim any space that was given up by someone trying to respect i-frames form the ledge.

Trades for Falco/Marth is much better for Falco. Generally, Falco will have stronger moves to trade with while being able to recover from a trade more quickly. If Marth/Falco get hit by the same move at the same percentage Marth will fly higher in the air and fall slower to the ground than Falco.

Falco is simply a much better overall character compared to Marth.

 

[Firecaith]

Top Tier

Nah, but Seriously,

Top Tier (S)

High Tier (A)

Middle Tier (B)

Low Tier (C)

Bottom Tier (F)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I don't agree with everything you said Xeylode.

Marth shouldn't be relying on grabs to get things started, that is a really obvious strategy and honestly doesn't even reward him very well outside of ~3 matchups. Grabs should be used by marth the same way as other characters: once you've conditioned the shield. Which means you have to be swinging your sword properly in order to do the footsies/neutral, and not just doing dash dance grab.

Trades are actually pretty bad for falco. Glass canon doesn't want to get chipped, if you know what I mean. Falco is also lighter than marth, so by definition he will fly farther from the same move at the same percent (which is the opposite of what you said).

Marth's recovery isn't really as linear as you simplified it to be. Marth holding his jump is actually relatively hard to edgeguard and he isn't always restricted to the ledge. For example, marth can fall as if he were heading to the edge, then airdodge onto the platform when he is edgehogged. There are also a ton of timing mixups between using DJ and sideb to force the person to standup/roll, giving him edge.

Lasers are also not that great. Powershielding is pretty standard these days, for one. They also have a whole bunch of other weaknesses like not covering falco's head and taking ~25 frames to protect his front. Not to mention simply shielding them has no negative repercussions in the vast majority of cases.

In any case, I'm not exactly disagreeing with you. I believe I voted 1.Fox 2.Falco 3.Marth, but I see marth and falco as roughly equal. The main reason I see Marth potentially above Falco is because they have roughly the same matchup spread, but marth does better vs the spacies (top of the tier list -> more important).

 

[Wreckarooni]

Yea Marth and Falco truly are neck and neck, to argue that one or the either should be overwhelmingly in second would be absurd. It's not like Fox and Falco who should not be extremely close in average vote placement as the current tier list says, there should be a larger gap between the two.

Falco having better trades than Marth? What in the? Marth doesn't even have to trade since; you know, he has a sword with disjointed hitboxes....and pretty much what Sveet said about recoveries. I'll add that edge cancels are very easy to predict and sniff out. In high level matches you will commonly see them get punished since you can lie in wait for a platform cancel while also covering other options (Side B takes a while and is telegraphed). Lasers? Shield them and then shield grab or OoS when Falco's come in for the all too predictable SHFF laser to attack/grab. Or just powershield the timing is so easy and predictable on Falco's lasers, Duck gets them like 100% of the time.

 

[Link24a]

S1.Fox
2.Falco
3.Marth
4.Puff
5.Sheik
A6.Peach
7.Pika
8.IC
9.Falcon
10.Samus
B11.Luigi
12.Doc
13.Dorf
14.Yoshi
15.Young Link
16.Mario
C17.Link
18.DK
19.G&W
20.Roy
21.Ness
22.Mewtwo
F23.Zelda
24.Pichu
25.Bowser
26.Kirby


Roy shouldn't be any worse than 22 lol

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I don't agree with everything you said Xeylode.

Marth shouldn't be relying on grabs to get things started, that is a really obvious strategy and honestly doesn't even reward him very well outside of ~3 matchups. Grabs should be used by marth the same way as other characters: once you've conditioned the shield. Which means you have to be swinging your sword properly in order to do the footsies/neutral, and not just doing dash dance grab.

Trades are actually pretty bad for falco. Glass canon doesn't want to get chipped, if you know what I mean. Falco is also lighter than marth, so by definition he will fly farther from the same move at the same percent (which is the opposite of what you said).

Marth's recovery isn't really as linear as you simplified it to be. Marth holding his jump is actually relatively hard to edgeguard and he isn't always restricted to the ledge. For example, marth can fall as if he were heading to the edge, then airdodge onto the platform when he is edgehogged. There are also a ton of timing mixups between using DJ and sideb to force the person to standup/roll, giving him edge.

Lasers are also not that great. Powershielding is pretty standard these days, for one. They also have a whole bunch of other weaknesses like not covering falco's head and taking ~25 frames to protect his front. Not to mention simply shielding them has no negative repercussions in the vast majority of cases.

In any case, I'm not exactly disagreeing with you. I believe I voted 1.Fox 2.Falco 3.Marth, but I see marth and falco as roughly equal. The main reason I see Marth potentially above Falco is because they have roughly the same matchup spread, but marth does better vs the spacies (top of the tier list -> more important).

Wow, I ended up writing more than I thought x.x Anyway, yeah, I recognize we are probably the same opinion of probably Fox, Falco, Marth. The only way I see Marth > Falco too is stronger and more positive match-ups against those that are rather important. I think Marth against Jiggs/peach is pretty strong compared to Falco.

Some points you brought up I think are still true and I went into more detail if you care to read. At the very least it was good to think about these things.

Spoiler: Trades

There is more to the physical fight distance from KB than weight alone. You can see the effect of Marth/Falco in physical distance by hitting them with Fox's Usmash and see when they can start to tech on the top platform. Marth clears the top platform at 28% and Falco by 44% (4% intervals I was using). Falco is lighter than Marth, but weight is not super important compared to the ability to deaccelerate from a launch more quickly.

There is more to winning trades as well. The strength of the move in question and the percentages people are at as well as where you get launched too ultimately. The point about Falco/Marth is that for getting hit by the same move Falco simply reaches the stage faster and therefore can trade with people to a much larger deficit in percentage. Falco's moveset is in general more powerful than Marth's. These two things compared to me mean that Falco can win a larger number of tradeable scenarios than Marth can. Trading is something you normally never want to do, but it gives the character in question more freedom in precision/timing if they are able to hit someone without having the perfect spacing and not get destroyed for it. So, I see that as a bonus for Falco.

Spoiler: Grab

Grabbing rewards Marth super well against the entire cast. You do not have to be in complete hitstun between moves to punish someone. When someone is in the air they cannot hope to outrange marth. They can hope the Marth will mess up his spacing/timing and get traded against. Or, you can try to wiggle around with stuff like 2nd jump or airdodge. All of which is still cover-able by Marth given his mobility.

As for grab being obvious I would like to know what other replacement he has for this move. Swinging with Marth is risky at low percents. Most of his moveset carries some risk of being CC'd or shielded against and countered. As percentages increase more of his moveset becomes more viable at giving him stronger and stronger advantages. Grab on the other hand carries no risk being beaten by CC/Shield and does not care about percentage. Its pretty ideal and in combination with using his movement traits, dash dancing, having stage to work with, and Dtilt I believe he can generate situations to grab people.

Spoiler: Powershielding/Lasers

Powershielding I am still not convinced of how reliable of a strategy this is to anyone. Its very hard to perform and in some positions impossible to pull off. Marth's Dash forward for example cannot reflect a laser at lowest height. He can very easily powershield on dash back, but then you get no benefit from powershielding being further from Falco than before. I agree powershielding seems the best answer to lasers. I am not convinced anyone can pull it off with enough regularity to make a falco reconsider lasering or use it against him.

Shielding a laser is still good for Falco. Merely because here you are stuck in shield and you have limited options out of shield compared to when you were not in shield. At best, you can hope to get away from the situation unscathed and not profit from shielding a laser at all. While for Falco he has everything to gain form you shielding.

Spoiler: Ledge

Yes, Marth does have options and it was not my intention to say he has super few, but to the larger argument its not quite what I was getting at. Its more the fact that Marth pretty much has to:
1) Fight his way to the ledge. (Getting onto the stage directly is doable, but not what he can safely accomplish most of the time)
2) Fight his way off the ledge.
3) Fight his way to gain stage now that he is back on the stage rim.
This whole process is sort of perilous. At each moment he might simply lose this fight and get put back off stage.

Falco on the other hand gets to circumvent much of this process directly at times or straight up have more options than Marth does. Falco's SideB to a platform is almost like a direct way to avoid the ledge, avoid fighting off the ledge, and go directly to fighting for stage control again.

Should that avenue not work he can usually get to the ledge. And again have more options than marth from this point to get off the ledge onto the stage. Should he get onto the stage again I feel he has the better time fighting to get the stage control again compared to Marth.

 

[EddyBearr]

I've always found it dishonest to call Fox or Falco glass cannons, especially when not calling Marth one. Marth is one of the easier characters to combo, juggle, and edgeguard in the game. Falco has godlike crouch canceling and good defense overall, with a very good recovery at shorter ranges, and Fox has almost as good defense with a good recovery at most distances.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Falco having better trades than Marth? What in the? Marth doesn't even have to trade since; you know, he has a sword with disjointed hitboxes....and pretty much what Sveet said about recoveries. I'll add that edge cancels are very easy to predict and sniff out. In high level matches you will commonly see them get punished since you can lie in wait for a platform cancel while also covering other options (Side B takes a while and is telegraphed). Lasers? Shield them and then shield grab or OoS when Falco's come in for the all too predictable SHFF laser to attack/grab. Or just powershield the timing is so easy and predictable on Falco's lasers, Duck gets them like 100% of the time.

The aspect of trading is a relatively minor point for most characters. Anyway, the point about trading is not to seek out trades for either of these characters. Its simply having that trait in the first place is like having a safety net. Being able to get away with trading (aka making a mistake in timing/spacing) simply makes said character easier to control and more forgiving. Yet, at the same time can make your character more threatening.

I think Marth never wants to a trade to happen period. He cannot recover fast enough against the likes of Falcon, Sheik, Fox, and Falco. However, all of these characters will not care too much about trading if it happens. Sheik/Marth trading dash attack/Dtilt is pretty much in Sheik's favor at a variety of percentages. Taking like 10% is not going to matter much if Marth is finally up in the air to still get swatted by a fair and edgeguarded. Again, trades are not the goal, but should they happen you would be pretty happy your character can recover quickly from it or not to avoid follow-ups from the other character.

I think the recovering Falco should be regarded as having some amount of decision making for using SideB or not into the stage. There is still time to sideB and go for a cancel before moving forward. Anyway, I think we are getting bogged down by minuet points that are meant to illustrate a larger concept. The main point of argument is if Marth > Falco is truly applicable or not. In this argument, I am going against that notion and providing various macro traits that Falco has over Marth for this argument. Such a topic is the trait that I am saying Falco has a better recovery than Marth. In doing so, I am illustrating several options that Falco has access to which can aid in his recovery which benefit to a better recovery. The point for me is not to isolate one recovery option by itself, but look at the collective whole that Falco has access to and how this reflects upon a better recovery or not.

Powershielding ends up being an interesting topic. As I said with Sveet, I am not convinced of there being enough players that powershield with enough consistency to make a Falco ever truly reconsider lasering. I feel its more at the point where a person gets off a few match. Of those few not all of them turn into being beneficial for the player.

Otherwise, shielding a laser gets to become a pretty complex topic. What are you going to do when you shield the laser and Falco is not in your grab range at all and is doing a little dance in front of your shield. At any dash forward they could attack your shield or maybe run in for a grab. How good are you at reacting to that fast action. Falco can just wait you out or go in for something and you might never know what exactly could happen and when it might happen. In that situation, Falco is the one with the most control and you are not.

Anyway, to follow-up with my earlier idea of how this fits into a larger topic. Lasering generates strong situations for Falco. To the point where his projectile is not easily countered and unable to give you an advantage at all times. So long as that remains true lasers contribute to Falco's overall domination of neutral against most of the cast. A neutral game that to me is better than what Marth can provide.

 

[AfroNova]

S: 1.Fox
2.Falco
3.Marth
4.Puff
5.Peach
6.Sheik
A: 7.ICs
8.Doc
9.Falcon
10.Pikachu
11.Samus
12.Ganon
13.Yoshi
14.Luigi
B: 15.Young Link
16.Mario
17.Link
18.DK
19.G&W
D: 20.Mewtwo
21.Ness
22.Roy
23.Bowser
24.Pichu
25.Zelda
26.Kirby




Main Goals: To raise Doc, Mewtwo, and Yoshi, to lower Sheik and Falcon.

 

[ShlomoGoldberger]

S+


S



S-



A+




A



A- (not really viable anymore)




B



F



LOL

 

[VaLoR_Ryan]

 

[keymanb]

Meanwhile in the thread:
S
A The rest of the S tier
B
F

I mean c'mon you gotta agree

That's some bad bs you got there

 

[Link24a]

S+


S



S-



A+




A



A- (not really viable anymore)




B



F



LOL

You what's up with ness being higher than dk?

 

[ShlomoGoldberger]

You what's up with ness being higher than dk?

Have you seen simna? Also im including the yoyo glitch.

 

[Link24a]

Have you seen simna? Also im including the yoyo glitch.

I've seen jamwa and hbox and I'm not impressed. DK just has far better throw combos, range and recovery

 

[Spoice]

Damn. All these lists putting falcon behind the other top 8 (and some even below pikachu) really does indicate just how under developed his meta is.

 

[Sir Bubbles]

You what's up with ness being higher than dk?

But YLink being 10th, Ganon being above Luigi and Samus and Mario being not viable while Doc is completely viable doesn't bother you?

 

[protato]

xxxxxxxxxx

 

[ShlomoGoldberger]

I've seen jamwa and hbox and I'm not impressed. DK just has far better throw combos, range and recovery

well they arnt simna

 

[Comet7]

you can't compare pichu and kirby like that. You just said pichu has a better nair but nair has a million uses depending on when you use it, what to use it for, etc... Also Pichu's up tilt has almost as much combo ability as kirby's and slightly more disjoint even though kirby's is more useful in more situations because it's fast for a tilt. you also didn't say how much better certain moves are than others, like how pichu's nair>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>kirby's nair and kirby's up tilt is more like >> pichu's up tilt, etc. Who cares anyway since comparing how certain moves are against one another individually is dumb and doesn't give much insight anyway. Just rate their neutral amd punish games and be dine wiyh it. Like against marth pichu is like pika but without cc d tilt past low % and kirby doesn't have it that bad either since he can get conversions from stray hits and abuse his duck which bolsters his already decent ground game.

 

[EddyBearr]

you can't compare pichu and kirby like that. You just said pichu has a better nair but nair has a million uses depending on when you use it, what to use it for, etc... Also Pichu's up tilt has almost as much combo ability as kirby's and slightly more disjoint even though kirby's is more useful in more situations because it's fast for a tilt. you also didn't say how much better certain moves are than others, like how pichu's nair>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>kirby's nair and kirby's up tilt is more like >> pichu's up tilt, etc. Who cares anyway since comparing how certain moves are against one another individually is dumb and doesn't give much insight anyway. Just rate their neutral amd punish games and be dine wiyh it. Like against marth pichu is like pika but without cc d tilt past low % and kirby doesn't have it that bad either since he can get conversions from stray hits and abuse his duck which bolsters his already decent ground game.

I pretty much agree. I made that post to point out that, sure, you can list out a bunch of moves Pichu has -- but you can do the exact same for Kirby. I didn't agree with the premise that Pichu necessarily has more tools than Kirby.

Damn. All these lists putting falcon behind the other top 8 (and some even below pikachu) really does indicate just how under developed his meta is.

I think it's less that he's underdeveloped and more that he sucks.

 

[Link24a]

But YLink being 10th, Ganon being above Luigi and Samus and Mario being not viable while Doc is completely viable doesn't bother you?

Ness being 5-7 spots above where he should stood out more

 

[Link24a]

well they arnt simna

BRB watching a few vids

Edit: double post RIP

 

[KillerGum]

Damn. All these lists putting falcon behind the other top 8 (and some even below pikachu) really does indicate just how under developed his meta is.

I think its more on the fact that they see Axe being successful and then think Pikachu is better than he actually is, while Falcons haven't placed very well for a while.

 

[AfroNova]

can you elaborate

Well, as a Falcon player I know you immediately disagree, which I completely respect, after all he has been above Doc for almost 15 years now. I feel that falcon has an amazing combo game, no question, but you cant ignore the recovery problem. Doc's isn't that great either, but falcon's is predictable. Doc's you can mix up with his other specials, like cover him with a pill or two. Doc certainly has a lot less representation competitively, But pretty much the only really top tier character falcon has a winning MU against is peach. Doc is even if not better than Puff, Peach, Falcon, and Sheik. Spacies trash him, where as they have an even MU with falcon. Honestly, I think they are the most close characters in my list because they both have excellent combo games, the only reason I give Doc the edge is because he has better MUs against everyone at the top besides peach and spacies. Feel free to rebuttal, I am willing to take constructive criticism.

 

[Link24a]

Just a random question because I've been seeing this a lot... why is Ness better than roy?

 

[ShlomoGoldberger]

But YLink being 10th, Ganon being above Luigi and Samus and Mario being not viable while Doc is completely viable doesn't bother you?

No serious representation. I think he can really shine if there is a high level solo main.