Meta 2015 Community Tier List Voting

[keymanb]

Marth or Shiek are pretty close for 3rd in my opinion, but I agree that Falco should be 2nd.

No, shiek is slightly overrated in the 2013 tier list. Marth definitely should of been 3rd. I think jiggly should even take shiek's place. Falcon is also underrated, but I don't think tier wise he is. I think just as an overall character

Laudandus is known for making ridiculous accusations about Falcon, even going as far as to make a Facebook Falcon hate group, along with Hax...

You know you're wrong as soon as you make a Facebook hate group of a video game character.

Pretty true matey.

Laudandus is known for making ridiculous accusations about Falcon, even going as far as to make a Facebook Falcon hate group, along with Hax...

You know you're wrong as soon as you make a Facebook hate group of a video game character.

Pretty true matey. I don't know how anyone can hate falcon...

 

[Spak]

No, shiek is slightly overrated in the 2013 tier list. Marth definitely should of been 3rd.

Why?

 

[Malkasaur]

I just want Kirby placed higher on the tier list. IDC about anything else.
EDIT: I think that Yoshi should be placed higher.

 

[Malkasaur]

I just want Kirby placed higher on the tier list. IDC about anything else.

oops double post

 

[TrustyBag]

Because Wobbles quit after EVO. Do you have any idea what you're talking about? He also took a set off of mew2king since then when m2k was still focusing on melee

Yes I do know Wobbles took a break after Evo but since his return, which was about a year ago, he hasn't done much. For example a 33rd place finish at Apex this year. This is my opinion about Ice Climbers, I'm sorry you don't agree with me.

 

[kingPiano]

I just want Kirby placed higher on the tier list. IDC about anything else.
EDIT: I think that Yoshi should be placed higher.

All that matters Malk is that we know it in our hearts.....because we've actually played the character longer than 10 seconds.

 

[townes]

1fox
2sheik
3marth
4falco
5c.falcon
6jigglypuff
7peach
8ice climbers
9doctor mario
10samus
11pikachu
12yoshi
13luigi
14ganondorf
15y.link
16link
17mario
18donkey kong
19zelda
20roy
21game&watch
22bowser
23pichu
24ness
25mewtwo
26kirby

I think sheik has the potential to be much better. I think falcon is better the people think. I think jigglypuff is a little overrated. I think pikachu and yoshi are extremely hard to rank because of Axe and Amsa. Luigi is much better then people think if they haven't played the best luigis in the world. Mewtwo is absolute trash. I don't think my tier list is good, but I'd love to see how this turns out. Such a fun topic.

 

[PJB]

Already voted but here's my list:
S Tier:
1) Fox
2) Falco
3) Marth
4) Sheik

A Tier:
5) Puff
6) Peach

B Tier:
7) ICs
8) Falcon
9) Samus
10) Pikachu
11) Yoshi

C Tier:
12) Dr. Mario
13) Luigi
14) Ganon
15) Mario

D Tier:
16) Young Link
17) Link
18) DK

E Tier:
19) Mewtwo
20) Game and Watch
21) Pichu

F tier:
22) Roy
23) Zelda
24) Ness
25) Kirby
26) Bowser

Explanations:
S- I think my S tier is fairly standard, and I do believe Sheik deserves to be included with the 3 characters above her. She has no match ups that prevent her from winning a national tournament, which was my criteria for placing a character in S tier.
A- Only peach and puff in A tier, because I believe they are significantly more viable than those in B, but have a terrible matchup with fox (and peach has a unwinnable matchup in puff). A favorable bracket however can result in a national win for these characters.
B- These are strong characters but they have several bad match ups above them. It is highly unlikely they will face a bracket that does not include many losing matchups. For example, Samus can do just fine if she only faces species, but one good sheik/peach/Marth and she's screwed. I also feel ICs and falcon fit better in this grouping than the A tier.
C- At this point, the characters rely on matchup inexperience. However, if the opponent is in fact inexperienced in the matchup, the C tier character can easily succeed. Luigi/Ganon's recent success despite poor matchup spreads is evidence of this.
D- Can compete against specific high tiers, but dominated by others. Examples- young link vs floaties, DK vs fast fallers, Link vs Marth/Peach
E- Bad characters, but options exist for them. There is at least some potential for these three to improve if a dedicated player mained them.
F- These characters are totally unviable. There is no justification for their use in tournament other than purely having fun.

 

[C_Mill24]

S TIER
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
A TIER
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.
14.
B TIER
15.
16.
17.
18.
19.
20.
F TIER
21.
22.
23.
24.
25.
26.

 

[AJawesome07]

At majors since 2013 (Apex x3, Evo x2, MLG, TBH4)
2nd: (Evo 2013)
7th: (Apex 2013) (Evo 2014)
9th:
13th:
17th:
25 / 29th:
Total top 32: x15 ; x14

It's comparable until you look at IC's getting 2nd, though there's something funny about that monopoly on getting 13th.


Apex 2015 in particular, as the most recent Major:
9th Nintendude
17th: Fly Amanita ; S2J
25th: Chu Dat


At regionals or small nationals this year: (Paragon, INY, Sandstorm, GOML, Press Start, Super Nebs 3*)
*Super Nebs 3 was intentionally saturated with Falcons, giving Falcon an extra Jeapie @ 7th and maybe Wizzrobe @ 5th.
*Locals, outside of perhaps very saturated ones in SoCal, NorCal, or Florida, shouldn't really be looked at -- Kirby wins locals pretty often in MN, but this doesn't necessarily mean Kirby is better than Mario, who doesn't win locals anywhere
*BAM is not a regional or small national given the playerbase. There were only 7 players who weren't from Oceania there -- it was basically a SoCal local.

2nd:
3rd:
5th:
7th:

Falcon would have an edge in regionals or small nationals this year as long as you don't discredit Jeapie being flown in. If you do discredit that, then I'd say it's roughly even.

So overall, IC's have done better than Falcon at majors since 2013, have done about comparably to Falcon at large regionals in 2015, and did far better than Falcon at Apex 2015. I think it's pretty clear IC's place better.

I'll shut up now

 

[Scaremonger]

Good advice breh, maybe next time you can use it to actually win vs pikachu.

Scaremonger (and Eddy) made sure to let everyone know his opinion on the Pikachu-Fox MU anytime it's brought up on the internet and I'm not interested in rehashing discussion for this.

lmao

Pretty true matey. I don't know how anyone can hate falcon...

One of the reasons I originally switched to Falcon was because I hated him. I think there are a lot of things to hate about Falcon, like his ******** vertical priority, his DD camping ability, his ridiculous punish game, etc. I think there are definitely valid reasons to dislike playing against him.

 

[Comet7]

Maybe the thread title should be changed to:

2015 Community Tier List Voting (And Why Everyone Else's Tier Lists Are Wrong)

I find everyone's lack of faith (in Roy) disturbing.

poor derailed voting thread

also scaremonger had the right idea

 

[Guzzler Guzzler]

Yes I do know Wobbles took a break after Evo but since his return, which was about a year ago, he hasn't done much. For example a 33rd place finish at Apex this year. This is my opinion about Ice Climbers, I'm sorry you don't agree with me.

So let's ignore his results from Intergalactic Kegger, Forte 2, and LTC 2

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

@ Fortress | Sveet :
So, when are the other rules going to come about considerations for this list? Not that I seriously think it will change much, but I am often surprised. I think Link's match-ups in smash64 did depend much on what stage he was playing on. Hyrule granting a good stage to play on most of the time.
​

=============​

I am not going to bother explaining too much. Its a vote. Plus, not much has changed.

Spoiler

Fox
Falco
Marth
Sheik
Jigglypuff
Peach
C.Falcon
Ice Climbers
Dr. Mario
Pikachu
Samus
Ganondorf
Luigi
Mario
Young Link
Yoshi
Link
Donkey Kong
Roy
Zelda
Mewtwo
Game & Watch
Ness
Bowser
Kirby
Pichu.

 

[protato]

xxxxxxxxxx

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

@ Fortress | Sveet :
So, when are the other rules going to come about considerations for this list? Not that I seriously think it will change much, but I am often surprised. I think Link's match-ups in smash64 did depend much on what stage he was playing on. Hyrule granting a good stage to play on most of the time.​

What other rules do you need to consider when voting? I should put a stage list, but I assumed it was implied considering there is 0 variance these days. Things like whether bans last a whole set, or whether the sets are Bo3-5, which version of DSR, etc shouldn't have a significant impact on the voting.

 

[PTFool]

S Tier
Fox
Marth
Sheik
Falco
Jigglypuff
Peach
A Tier
Captain Falcon
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
Samus
B Tier
Dr. Mario
Ganondorf
Yoshi
Luigi
Young Link
C Tier
Mario
Link
D Tier
Donkey Kong
F Tier
Roy
Pichu
Mewtwo
Zelda
Kirby
Game & Watch
Ness
Bowser

 

[Mr. Jam]

(Viable to win)
Voted already but here's this.
S: Very Viable For National
1. Fox
A: Viable For National
2. Marth
3. Falco
A-: Slightly Viable For National
4. Jiggilypuff
5. Sheik
B: Very Viable For Regional
6. Falcon
7. Peach
8. Samus
9. Luigi
10. Pikachu
C: Less Viable For Regional
11. Ice Climbers
12. Dr. Mario
13. Mario
14. Yoshi
15. Ganon
16. Donkey Kong
17. Mr. Game And Watch
D: Viable For Local:
18. Young Link
19. Link
20. Zelda
F: Viable For Nothing
21. Mewtwo
22. Roy
23. Pichu
24. Bowser
25. Ness
26. Kirby

 

[spy_]

Supermajor Potential
1. Fox
2. Marth
3. Falco
4. Sheik

Major Potential
5. Jigglypuff
6. Captain Falcon
7. Peach

Regional Potential
8. Samus
9. Ice Climbers
10. Pikachu
11. Yoshi

Regional/Local Potential
12. Luigi
13. Doctor Mario
14. Ganondorf
15. Mario

Local Potential
16. Young Link
17. Donkey Kong
18. Link
19. Game & Watch

Little/No Potential
20. Zelda
21. Mewtwo
22. Ness
23. Roy
24. Pichu
25. Bowser
26. Kirby

A few thoughts: i'm a biased Falcon main, but I truly believe the character is underdeveloped and overly criticized; 20GX is the future and I love seeing the crisp efficiency of Wizzrobe. I put Samus in front of ICs because I think that ICs are more gimmicky, coupled with the recent strong results of Samus mains. Other than that, I could see Luigi/Doc moving up a tier (probably Luigi given his representation compared to Doc). I think G&W has good offensive game, which redeems him slightly for his atrocious defensive options.

 

[Fuerzo]

Already voted, but here's a visual:

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

What other rules do you need to consider when voting? I should put a stage list, but I assumed it was implied considering there is 0 variance these days. Things like whether bans last a whole set, or whether the sets are Bo3-5, which version of DSR, etc shouldn't have a significant impact on the voting.

Stages is about all I was thinking of to be honest. Otherwise, I was thinking why have these lines:

• Rules?
  • NTSC
  • Wobbling is legal
• more coming...

lol More coming. Nothing to come lol

 

[TrustyBag]

So let's ignore his results from Intergalactic Kegger, Forte 2, and LTC 2

Although he placed high at LTC 2 and Intergalatic Kegger he didn't take a set off of anyone really good in bracket

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

More coming was for the FAQ section, not the rules section. When I'm asked a question I put it in the FAQ as well.

I'll put the stages up there to be explicit.

 

[Guzzler Guzzler]

Although he placed high at LTC 2 and Intergalatic Kegger he didn't take a set off of anyone really good in bracket

you shouldn't be allowed to vote

 

[EddyBearr]

I definitely think Marth and Sheik are both closer to Peach than Falco.

you shouldn't be allowed to vote

He is right that Wobbles didn't beat anyone at LTC2 or Intergalactic Kegger.

With that said, he's also absurd if he thinks Bizzarro Flame has made more of a showing than Wobbles alone, or let alone Wobbles + Nintendude + Fly + Chu. Bizz basically has results to combat maybe Trail + Dizzkid. IC's have better results historically, better results recently, have reached far greater heights, have far better matchups, all while having roughly the same size of player-base as both Ganon and Samus. I can somewhat understand putting Samus over IC's (though I greatly disagree), I don't think there's any excuse to put Ganon above them since.. well.. Ganon sucks, doesn't have much more potential, and doesn't get results.

 

[kingPiano]

This thread is starting to give me the chortles.

 

[Scaremonger]

half of the characters in the s-tier can just reactively stuff almost everything Ganon can do in neutral. He has horrible startup on everything and massive endlag on everything. If some magic wizard guy played Ganondorf and could accurately hard read everything his opponent was doing, he'd still probably only get like 33rd at EVO. Ganon sucks, he just has good matchups against anyone playing off, bad players, and drunk people.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

half of the characters in the s-tier can just reactively stuff almost everything Ganon can do in neutral. He has horrible startup on everything and massive endlag on everything. If some magic wizard guy played Ganondorf and could accurately hard read everything his opponent was doing, he'd still probably only get like 33rd at EVO. Ganon sucks, he just has good matchups against anyone playing off, bad players, and drunk people.

For the record, Mr. Brandandorf got 33rd at EVO 2014. He had a rather easy bracket though.

 

[Upke]

My tentative tier list:

gud @ game
Fox
Marth
Falco
Sheik
Falcon
Peach
ICs
Puff

can do dumb things
Samus
Luigi
Pikachu
Doc
Ganon
Yoshi

can do more than stand there and lose
Mario
YL
DK
Link
G&W

stand there and lose
Mewtwo
Pichu
Zelda
Ness
Roy
Bowser
Kirby

Feel free to tell me why it's dumb, and I'll get overly defensive and tell you that you're dumb.

Puff sucks WAKE UP AMERICA

 

[M.C.Jeducation]

My tentative tier list:

gud @ game
Fox
Marth
Falco
Sheik
Falcon
Peach
ICs
Puff

can do dumb things
Samus
Luigi
Pikachu
Doc
Ganon
Yoshi

can do more than stand there and lose
Mario
YL
DK
Link
G&W

stand there and lose
Mewtwo
Pichu
Zelda
Ness
Roy
Bowser
Kirby

Feel free to tell me why it's dumb, and I'll get overly defensive and tell you that you're dumb.

Puff sucks WAKE UP AMERICA

This tier list is a breath of fresh air because it seems like you've actually thought it through yourself rather than just following the norms.

That being said, what is your reasoning for putting Puff below even ICs? And Falcon above Peach? Just curious. Please don't get overly defensive. Im yung. I dont wanna die.

 

[Scaremonger]

Puff has like instakill moves and ****, she's p good

Peach is good because Armada noticed that she was on the CSS. If Armada had picked Marth, everyone would think Marth was the best character in the game. Peach is slow and gross and loses to like every character. All of her bad matchups like Puff and Marth are even worse because she isn't fast enough to win individual PVP interactions and overcome those bad matchups.

Puff loses hard to Fox and has a disadvantage vs Marth/Falcon imo, but Peach has even harder matchups against those characters and loses to other characters as well. Peach sux.

Also, Yoshi is legit.

 

[kingPiano]

Seems like the only actual changes that might happen are Marth swapping with Falco and Yoshi moving up a bit. Not a big deal.

As far as the community tier list....lulz

 

[TheCandyman]

Seems like the only actual changes that might happen are Marth swapping with Falco and Yoshi moving up a bit. Not a big deal.

Hey I mean both are kinda needed. Maybe Sheik to 4th and Falcon go down a bit and Pikachu up because of placings

 

[kingPiano]

Hey I mean both are kinda needed. Maybe Sheik to 4th and Falcon go down a bit and Pikachu up because of placings

Yea I've got Pikachu going up a spot, but that probably won't happen as far as the majority ranked players are concerned.

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

All right, here's mine.

Top Tier (S):
1. Fox
2. Marth
3. Falco


High Tier (A):
4. Sheik
5. Captain Falcon
6. Jigglypuff
7. Peach
8. Ice Climbers


Mid-High Tier (B):
9. Pikachu
10. Samus
11. Dr. Mario
12. Yoshi


Middle Tier (C):
13. Luigi
14. Mario
15. Ganondorf


Mid-Low Tier (D):
16. Young Link
17. Link
18. Donkey Kong


Low Tier (E):
19. Mewtwo
20. Zelda
21. Mr. Game & Watch
22. Roy
23. Pichu
24. Ness


Bottom Tier (F):
25. Bowser
26. Kirby

EDIT: The first 4 tiers stay the same, but every other tier is jumbled. Young Link goes up 2, and both Link and DK go down 1. G&W increases by 3 spots, Roy goes down 2 spots, and Ness goes down 2 spots. Bottom tier loses G&W, Ness, and Pichu.

 

[TrustyBag]

you shouldn't be allowed to vote

You don't need to be so butt hurt because you disagree with me. Just calm down.

 

[Laudandus]

Can't tell what you're trying to do here. I'm saying he's wrong because I strongly disagree. I understand it's his opinion, and I think it's absolutely absurd, but it's his opinion. I'm not saying that he's empirically wrong exactly, but god dammit it's debatable.

Laudandus, I really don't get your justification for Falco being 5th. Best projectile in the game, shine and amazing combo ability. You're really talking down the power of lasers.

Definitely has much better tools and options than Falcon and Sheik in the neutral. They both have good combo ability, but I'd say Falco's is better. Marth is debatable due to Marth's speed and ability to deal with lasers. While Sheik can weave/PS through lasers, she's much slower. Falcon has a much harder time dealing with lasers than both of those characters.

Played more defensively/campy, how do his tough floaty matchups (Samus/Jiggly/Peach) actually beat him? You use the speed argument for losing to Falcon and Marth while Falco's faster than the three previously mentioned characters. It's hard for him to play super aggro against those 3 and win, but a defensive Falco should win those matchups.

I agree that Falco beats Samus/Jiggly/Peach, but I'm taking into account degree of victory. I think Falcon, Sheik, Marth, and Fox beat all those characters as well, and have better matchup spreads vs them overall - Fox wins very hard vs Jiggs, Sheik wins very hard vs Samus, Falcon wins very hard vs Samus and Peach, etc.

I think that lasers are not that great. If you tank lasers they do not have all that much hitstun. They are pretty good, but they have minimal actual upside assuming a high level of understanding and execution regarding getting hit by them and pretty high downside if they're read and stuffed into a kill combo with something like Sheik dash attack or Falcon uair -> tech chase / edge guard / combo. Falco's combo ability is alright, but you have to look at relative punish game and I think he loses that vs Sheik, Marth, and Falcon (as well as vs Peach, Puff, and IC's, actually). Do you think Falco can win with the same number of openings as those characters?

Shine is really good, but all it is is a tool for having an advantage if your characters are right on top of each other and Falco is kind of slow so that's not too easy for him to do. I really think a Sheik committed to zoning him or a Falcon committed to zoning him or a Marth committed to zoning him has an advantage - not an overwhelming advantage but an advantage nonetheless.

I do think the top 5 are pretty close, and there is a substantial drop off in tier after that. I would call Fox/Marth/Sheik/Falcon/Falco "S tier" and Jiggs/Peach/IC's "A tier".

 

[keymanb]

Seems like the only actual changes that might happen are Marth swapping with Falco and Yoshi moving up a bit. Not a big deal.

As far as the community tier list....lulz

Tbh, although I play more marth than falco. I think falco beat's marth better than fox. But I don't know to be honest, it's kind of like.

Everyone knows about fox
You either hate or love falco
Everyone who loves marth wants him to take falco's spot.

So I dunno what will happen man.

@Laudandus I'm sorry, but that S tier you made, along with the A tier, isn't proper...
Why does everyone underrate falco, to the point where it get's so ridiculous that this thread gives me goosebumps and a sense a meme will be made about this >_> And holy flip, why did you put Jigglypuff so low?

 

[kingPiano]

Tbh, although I play more marth than falco. I think falco beat's marth better than fox. But I don't know to be honest, it's kind of like.

Everyone knows about fox
You either hate or love falco
Everyone who loves marth wants him to take falco's spot.

So I dunno what will happen man.

Well I think a lot of the reasoning is also how Marth can dominate all the mid-low tiers. To people who play on a non-national level that's not a big deal but the tier list is based a lot on overall MU spread. And Marth having such a huge range advantage pretty much makes for extremely lopsided MUs for characters as high as Pikachu and Doc....and well almost everyone from Luigi down is pretty much an unwinnable MU against Marth. The massive difference between Fox and Falco is speed (and recovery). Fox's horizontal speed is what makes his effective range on par if not better than Marth's.


I mean let's take a look at Bowser for example. For as terrible as Bowser might be he actually can get in on spacies and actually defend himself against them. But against Marth? That's like watching Mike Tyson fight a newborn baby. It's disgusting to try and even more horrifying to watch. Same thing goes for Pichu and pretty much all the mid and low tiers; Falco and other FFers actually can still be comboed by them, possibly even out-ranged, and each has their tricks and gimmicks that can work. But on Marth it's pretty much hopeless for them all if played correctly.

Yes Marth can have trouble finishing once % get too high, but even then he can effectively wall out any advance aside from lasers (really though powershielding has become part of the current meta, so.....)

 

[DeepDish]

@Laudandus I'm sorry, but that S tier you made, along with the A tier, isn't proper...
Why does everyone underrate falco, to the point where it get's so ridiculous that this thread gives me goosebumps and a sense a meme will be made about this >_> And holy flip, why did you put Jigglypuff so low?

Well he gave his reasoning this time. While I still disagree, I can understand the arguments he's making. But yeah, Falco is getting slept on HARD in this thread by some people. Laudandus, you're from Cali. How often does Johnnie actually beat Westballz? And if he does win more than lose, name me one other Falcon on this planet who's positive against Westballz or PP, or any other high level Falco for that matter.

I really think a Sheik committed to zoning him or a Falcon committed to zoning him or a Marth committed to zoning him has an advantage - not an overwhelming advantage but an advantage nonetheless.

Try telling that to M2K, or any of the top Sheik mains for that matter. I haven't seen a high level Sheik main specifically beat a high level Falco main in recent memory. The are only two times I can think of off of the top of my head, the first time being when KirbyKaze beat Weon-X at The Come Up in Toronto this past winter. Camilo isn't really a Falco though. That man's definitely a better Fox. Plus KK was having a great weekend that tournament. The other time being when M2K beat Mango in winners' bracket of Apex... 2013 I think. Yeah that's when it was. And then they met in losers' and played Falco vs. Sheik. Mango won.

Marth v Falco on the other hand, I think that matchup will almost always be completely even. Both characters have lots of usable tools/options and punishes on each other in that matchup. Zoning doesn't matter a ton when Falco gets in on Marth, which is much easier than most characters thanks to lasers. If Marth gets hit by a laser from an approaching Falco, he's getting hit by an aerial or a shine, no doubt about it.