Meta 2015 Community Tier List Voting

[Scaremonger]

Falco has a +1 Matchup against ganon

Falco has a +2 Against falcon

oh my ****ing god, please don't tell me I've been talking to someone quoting ssbwiki this entire time.

Joined: Apr 7, 2015

WELP

 

[kingPiano]

Falco has a +1 Matchup against ganon

Falco has a +2 Against falcon

Reason why is because ganon's better range and overall damage over falcon. Makes him have better defensive game.

I would strongly advise against using any wiki MU charts, they are extremely wrong in many cases. I'd actually say both have about the same unfavorable MU unless it's on FD....then Ganondorf loses much easier.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I don't think I can convince you about eating lasers, @ Fortress | Sveet , so I'll just end here. The final thing is, the +4 advantage is almost never going to happen since Falco needs to have like 3 frame perfect inputs in a row to get it, which is just never ever going to happen multiple times in a row enough for +4 to be any kind of realistic consistent figure. Even if Falco manages to get a 1 frame advantage, Falcon is still faster in pretty much every single category, which puts him at an advantage with good positioning. Eating lasers isn't even some harebrained theory that I pulled out of my ***, PPMD has been talking about "take laser -> dash" with Marth for a long time.

I can see it being effective with Marth because he has a disjoint advantage on Falco. Falcon has no such advantage.

This is the problem with voting based on what *might* get figured out in the future. It hasn't been proven to work yet.

 

[keymanb]

I would strongly advise against using any wiki MU charts, they are extremely wrong in many cases. I'd actually say both have about the same unfavorable MU unless it's on FD....then Ganondorf loses much easier.

I know, I evaluate them myself if I find they are "Fishy"

 

[Sir Bubbles]

Falco has a +1 Matchup against ganon

Falco has a +2 Against falcon

Reason why is because ganon's better range and overall damage over falcon. Makes him have better defensive game.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what those numbers mean and where they came from.

Are you referring to the old 2010 MU chart? In that case, it's completely outdated and there's almost nothing accurate about that anymore.

The little range difference between the two is not enough to compensate for the fact that Ganon has trouble approaching due to his laggy aerials and in general, lousy movement.

 

[keymanb]

oh my ****ing god, please don't tell me I've been talking to someone quoting ssbwiki this entire time.



WELP

And no...

 

[keymanb]

Ok, so to deal with bias and not to make myself look more like an idiot. Yes I generally get my common info from the wiki, that's kind of where all our info is based, but in practicality if you want I could just argue off myself, I take the warrant from the wiki, and interpret it myself. I then just speak my belief. So no I don't quote the wiki for you're information I'm quite against the wiki in most of my arguments, but I have no right to deem what is a matchup on myself alone, that's why I base my information off the wiki.

 

[Sir Bubbles]

Ok, so to deal with bias and not to make myself look more like an idiot. Yes I generally get my common info from the wiki, that's kind of where all our info is based, but in practicality if you want I could just argue off myself, I take the warrant from the wiki, and interpret it myself. I then just speak my belief. So no I don't quote the wiki for you're information I'm quite against the wiki in most of my arguments, but I have no right to deem what is a matchup on myself alone, that's why I base my information off the wiki.

It's okay mang, you're not an idiot but if you feel as though that you lack the knowledge or experience in a particular subject it's best not to contribute, or take from other sources. Any info regarding characters and MUs is best to just trust yourself than the SSB wiki, lol.

 

[Danny of AD 1]

s (always viable)
1 fox
2 falco
a (mostly viable)
3 shiek
4 marth
5 jigglypuff
6 captain falcon
7 peach
8 ice climbers
9 yoshi
b (semi viable)
10 pikachu
11 dr mario
12 samus
c (situational)
13 luigi
14 ganondorf
15 young link
f (non-viable)
16 mario
17 link
18 ness
19 donkey kong
20 roy
21 zelda
22 mewtwo
23 mr game and watch
24 pichu
25 bowser
26 kirby

 

[keymanb]

Thanks I suppose, but I believe I am knowledgeable. So I will take you're advice, thank you. I mean, I just feel that if I made that myself, I would receive more hate and such just by talking, so I generally just feel that it's always nice to have something to link back to.

 

[kingPiano]

Ok, so to deal with bias and not to make myself look more like an idiot. Yes I generally get my common info from the wiki, that's kind of where all our info is based, but in practicality if you want I could just argue off myself, I take the warrant from the wiki, and interpret it myself. I then just speak my belief. So no I don't quote the wiki for you're information I'm quite against the wiki in most of my arguments, but I have no right to deem what is a matchup on myself alone, that's why I base my information off the wiki.

Do not worry about it, honestly you both should have followed through on your promises and just stopped arguing like you said you would many posts ago heehee.

This is a particularly circular argument and it's going nowhere, in fact it's already been there and back. Too biased and not enough actual evidence or solid reasons to make any convincing impact here.

 

[keymanb]

Ye
Thank ye mateys.

 

[quarterpounder31]

S Tier
1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Marth
4. Sheik
5. Peach
6. Jigglypuff

A Tier
7. Ice Climbers
8. C. Falcon

B Tier
9. Pikachu
10. Doc
11. Samus
12. Luigi
13. Ganondorf
14. Yoshi
15. Young Link
16. Mario

C Tier
17. Link
18. Mr. G&W
19. Roy
20. Pichu
21. DK
22. Zelda

D Tier
23. Mewtwo
24. Ness
25. Kirby
26. Bowser

(Am I the only one who thinks Bowser is the worst?)

 

[Danny of AD 1]

note that the f tier is easy to use but all of them lack any qualities that could give them any potential competitively they're just horrid

 

[Fuerzo]

Haven't seriously played Melee in a while, but I do follow it pretty closely.

S:

1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Marth
4. Sheik

A:

5. Peach
6. Jigglypuff

B:

7. Ice Climbers
8. Samus
9. Pikachu
10. Captain Falcon
11. Luigi
12. Yoshi
13. Ganondorf
14. Dr. Mario

C:

15. Mario
16. Young Link
17. Donkey Kong
18. Link
19. Mr. Game & Watch

D:

20. Mewtwo
21. Roy
22. Ness
23. Zelda
24. Pichu
25. Kirby
26. Bowser

 

[Sir Bubbles]

I guess I'll post my thoughts here, there isn't a reason not too
Some characters I didn't leave opinions for because I either didn't care for the reasoning or just didn't want to explain myself

Top: All advantageous/even MUs

1. - We all know why

2. - Wins in neutral against virtually every character and his speed is not an issue, combo game is stellar and in general rekts everything.

3. - Best space animal MUs in the game, good mobility and insane range, destroys cast below him. Has a lot of obscure tech and room for optimizing, Definitely 3rd best.


High: Mostly advantageous/even MUs, lose a few


4. - Underrated; Incredible fast moves, CG, easy tech chases and good KO power. Destroys cast below her.

5.

6. - A little overrated. Punish game stronk on everyone, but gets camped and out prioritized well.


Borderline: Either has even/modest losses in top tiers or has a single/few really tough but possible MUs


7. - Jank, oddball character with not only access with wobbling and insane desync combos, but strong, fast aerials and smash attacks with decent movement. Terrible Peach MU doe.

8. - Hard Fox, Sheik and Falco MUs but does acceptable in every other MU. Punishes ridiculously hard and great mobility overall


Mid: Either loses most top tier MUs modestly or have a near unwinnable MU


9. - After Sheik, probably has best space animal MUs, but can't do a thing against Sheik/Marth/Peach.

10. - Overrated, but is still proven viable.

11. - Underrated. Good coherent movement, good edgeguard tools, CG, good combo game and great punish game. Neutral is bad and gets rekt hard by Peach and arguably Marth.

12. - Great but significantly harder to play than any character in the same tier while weilding similar results.

13. - Overrated; terrible air movement, but good and fast aerials, smash attacks and insane ground speed. Good combo game on Fast fallers

14. - Barely worse than Luigi. Like Doc but with a better combo game, but with KO problems.

15. - Movement isn't all that bad, but he's incredibly large, good combo weight, terrible out of shield options, near unwinnable space animal MUs. A few lucky hits can end a stock, though.


Low: Loses most top tier MUs hard and has a few unwinnable


16. - Great Puff and decent Peach MU for a lowered tier character but every other top tier is near impossible. Good as a niche/backup but a terrible main

17. - Gets shut down really hard in general, but can get insane combo set ups with cargo throws

18.

19. - Overrated - Horrible, laggy moves, barely any finishers and terrible movement speed.

20. - Nair and Uair coupled with mobility give him a chance to be better than the ones below

21.

22.

23.

24.

25.

26.

 

[TrustyBag]

In what world are Samus and Ganon better than Ice Climbers

Judging by your profile pic, I'm guessing you're a little biased, but that aside I do agree that ICs are in general a better character than Samus and Ganon but because of how many people play Fox these days I feel that Samus and Ganon are better than ICs because of that matchup. Especially Samus does pretty well against Fox For Example Plup over Leffen at Paragon and Hugs over Leffen at Press Start. And ICs normally get destroyed by Fox. I'm not saying that Fox is the only character people play but you play a Fox main much more than any other character.

 

[$mike]

1. - Doesn't have a losing matchup to any character. Goes around even with Falco and barely beats Marth, but otherwise wins solidly or dominates vs the rest of the cast.

2. - Like Fox, Falco doesn't have a losing matchup to anyone in the game, other than Fox maybe. However, he can struggle a bit vs other characters that Fox solidly wins against, namely Falcon, Peach, Sheik, and Marth. The distance between Falco and these characters is getting tighter because I think lasers are currently not as good as they once were, but overall I think Falco still beats all of those characters.

3. - Sheik has slightly losing matchups to Fox and Falco. Her matchup with Falcon is close to even, but her punish game in the matchup is much more simple and straight-forward. Plus, her crouch/CC+dtilt are hard for Falcon to deal with, so I think she has the edge vs him. She also has a very close matchup with Marth but I think she slightly wins that one too because of her better punish game.

4. - Falcon is one of the most underrated characters in the current meta. His losing matchups vs Fox, Falco, and Sheik aren't by much (I think they're all fairly close to even). I think he has a slight advantage vs Marth because Falcon can kill Marth off of almost hit he gets, and he has just as many options as Marth does in neutral. He gets edgeguarded fairly easily but I think he can edgeguard Marth just as effectively. His speed/mobility, combo ability, and killpower are great and can easily overwhelm Peach and Puff as well. Of course, he also has a much easier time in matchups with the mid tier characters (IC, Samus, Luigi, Doc, etc.) than some of the other upper-tier characters.

5. - Marth does pretty decently vs Fox and Falco. As for Sheik and Falcon, though, he gets death combo'd easily while having a more difficult time comboing them. He has some of the best abilities for ground movement/options, which help him in neutral, but a big drawback of his in the aforementioned matchups is that he requires very precise attack placements to succeed.

6. - Although Peach loses to Puff, I put her one spot above because I think she has a better time vs the rest of my top 5. I think all of them are hard matchups for her, but she has more offensive/combo options.

7. - I think Puff is a good character but her ground mobility is basically nonexistent and her options on the ground are very limited. In this way I feel like she's somewhat one-dimensional. If she manages to get in, her pressure and comboing are pretty good vs the top-upper tier characters.

-----

8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.

the rest don't matter much

 

[TaFoKiNtS]

I forgot what I put already on the actual ballot, but here goes nothing

1. Fox
2. Marth
3. Sheik
4. Falco

5. Peach
6. Ice Climbers
7. Captain Falcon
8. Pikachu
9. Jigglypuff

10. Samus
11. Yoshi
12. Dr. Mario
13. Luigi
14. Mario
15. Ganon
16. Young Link
17. Link
18. Donkey Kong
19. Game and Watch
20. Mewtwo
21. Zelda
22. Roy
23. Pichu
24. Bowser
25. Ness
26. Kirby

I'll explain reasoning in a future post

 

[AJawesome07]

Well even when you split it up into tiers....you are still saying "Hey these characters are clearly better, don't bother with the others" adding numbers really doesn't do anything different, it just clarifies placement.

Your example of Ice Climber/Falcon compared to Falco/Fox, well spacies (and Marth) ARE far better by a much larger margin just based on how well they do against all of the cast in comparison to ICs/Falcon. So it's not illogical at all to say that Fox is leaps and bounds above Ice Climbers and a ranking should reflect that. In fact going by your system I would say spacies should technically be in a tier of their own above S with Marth and maybe Sheik.

Okay, sure. My example was just that, an example. Ideally, there would be an accurate number of tiers. So yes, I agree with you that Fox, Falco, Marth and Sheik would be in their own tier. The idea is that you sort all characters into tiers to the point where everyone agrees that the general ability of all characters in that tier are nearly equal without creating an ordered list that gives people impressions that one character is blatantly better than another. Again, I feel the need to reiterate the fact that I don't feel very strongly about this.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I'll explain reasoning in a future post

I'm very interested in why you put Pikachu at 8th.

 

[TaFoKiNtS]

I'll think about it more and more, but I do like Pikachu based on potential in the meta.

+ Decent Fox/Falco matchup
+ Solid counterpicks
+ Great hitboxes
+ Fantastic recovery

I'll probably shift things around and I probably put puff way too low, but I'm still puzzled why puff is as high as 4/5 on the lists when hbox is the only person to show a high level success.

 

[1MachGO]

I'll think about it more and more, but I do like Pikachu based on potential in the meta.

+ Decent Fox/Falco matchup
+ Solid counterpicks
+ Great hitboxes
+ Fantastic recovery

I'll probably shift things around and I probably put puff way too low, but I'm still puzzled why puff is as high as 4/5 on the lists when hbox is the only person to show a high level success.

And Pikachu's success doesn't live and die by the results of one player either?

This isn't to say I disagree with your ranking of Pikachu, but you have to make up your mind where "theoretical potential" starts and "empirical example" ends.

 

[kingPiano]

I'll think about it more and more, but I do like Pikachu based on potential in the meta.

+ Decent Fox/Falco matchup
+ Solid counterpicks
+ Great hitboxes
+ Fantastic recovery

I'll probably shift things around and I probably put puff way too low, but I'm still puzzled why puff is as high as 4/5 on the lists when hbox is the only person to show a high level success.

My thoughts regarding Puff -

Guaranteed Rest set ups and other KO set ups, super safe aerial approaches at any percent, Very good range and disjointed hitboxes on aerials, gimp ability on any character (wall of pain), extreme aerial mobility. And I feel that her dying early "con" is offset well by her resistance to being combo'ed (only truly Up throw > Up airs with platforms by spacies but that can be SDI'ed)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I forgot what I put already on the actual ballot

If you click the link to vote again, you will be allowed to view and edit your previous response.

 

[MitchBerryCrunch]

The truest tier list u will ever see:


OD Tier

Fox
Marth
Falco

High Tier

Sheik
Puff

Upper Tier

Peach
Samus
Ice Climbers
Falcon

Viable Tier

Dr. Mario
Ganondorf
Pikachu

Decent Tier

Luigi
Mario
Link
Young Link

Meh Tier

D.K.
Yoshi
Ness
Roy

Dirt Tier

Bowser
Mewtwo
Zelda

Unusable Tier

Mr. G&W
Kirby
Pichu

 

[ChainArmour712]

Hmm, perhaps it's me but as a Link main I think you guys may be underrating him. He has lots of good tools likyle bombs and spin attack, plus his extra range means he can fight other characters at a better distance than YL. I'd put him above Mario and YL, and perhaps Ganon. I also think Marth and Falco are a tier in their own above Sheik and Puff, and that Roy and M2 are underplaced. . Here's my list:

S:
Fox

A:
Falco
Marth

B:
Sheik
Puff

C:
Falcon
Peach
Pika


D:
ICs
Yoshi
Samus
Doc
Luigi

E:
Link
Ganon
Mario
YL

F:
Roy
DK
Ness
Mewtwo

G:
GW
Kirby

E:
Pichu
Zelda
Bowser

 

[ycz12]

I'll think about it more and more, but I do like Pikachu based on potential in the meta.

+ Great hitboxes

Aside from u-air and maybe f-tilt and f-smash, what hitboxes are you talking about? I feel like the crappy range on his other aerials is one of the main things holding Pika back.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

His nair has low priority, but thats not the purpose of the move. Nair is for abusing his amazing horizontal momentum. He has plenty of high priority moves (eg, his uair is as disjointed as marth's sword) for the situations that require them.

 

[Guzzler Guzzler]

Judging by your profile pic, I'm guessing you're a little biased, but that aside I do agree that ICs are in general a better character than Samus and Ganon but because of how many people play Fox these days I feel that Samus and Ganon are better than ICs because of that matchup. Especially Samus does pretty well against Fox For Example Plup over Leffen at Paragon and Hugs over Leffen at Press Start. And ICs normally get destroyed by Fox. I'm not saying that Fox is the only character people play but you play a Fox main much more than any other character.

I main Falco. IC's beat Sheik and Puff, what high tiers do Ganon and Samus beat?

 

[Comet7]

why do i feel like all the people who say roy has "good spacie matchups" forget that sane people will just ban FD against him? do that and his job gets way harder since he's not marth lol. just a thought.

 

[GucciFish]

S-Tier:

A-Tier:

B-Tier

C-Tier:

D-Tier:

F-Tier:

 

[Midwest Holiday]

Here is what I think,

S+ Tier (Definitely Viable)-

1.) Fox

2.) Falco

3.) Marth

4.) Shiek

S Tier (Viable)-

5.) Jigglypuff

6.) Captain Falcon

7.) Peach

8.) Ice Climbers

A Tier (Semi-viable)-

9.) Pikachu

10.) Samus

11.) Luigi

12.) Ganondorf

B Tier-

13.) Yoshi

14.) Doc

15.) Mario

16.) Young Link

C Tier (Un-viable)-

17.) Link

18.) Donkey Kong

19.) Zelda

D Tier (Absolutely Un-viable)-

20.) Pichu

21.) Ness

22.) Game & Watch

23.) Roy

F Tier (Worthless)-

24.) Mewtwo

25.) Bowser

26.) Kirby


This is my personal tier list, enjoy.
​

 

[Roukiske]

Wish I had experienced high level opponents for every character. Most of my knowledge goes to what me and my friends play, who are mostly on the upper portion of most lists. I mean I could theorize and all, but I bet there's plenty of things I don't know about the lower portion. I'd rather not put uneducated assumptions into the mix :D

I will say in my struggle to switch mains to Luigi, I'm starting to feel the flaws I couldn't see when I first decided to switch. Also I recently got to see Germ play his Link against my group. His or Link's neutral game was such a wall for my friends... or we really suck hah!

The way balance works in this game to me is extremely fascinating. There's specific tech for so many factors of the game and even the lower tiers may have some tools going for them against specific MU's.

 

[kingPiano]

Wish I had experienced high level opponents for every character. Most of my knowledge goes to what me and my friends play, who are mostly on the upper portion of most lists. I mean I could theorize and all, but I bet there's plenty of things I don't know about the lower portion. I'd rather not put uneducated assumptions into the mix :D

I will say in my struggle to switch mains to Luigi, I'm starting to feel the flaws I couldn't see when I first decided to switch. Also I recently got to see Germ play his Link against my group. His or Link's neutral game was such a wall for my friends... or we really suck hah!

The way balance works in this game to me is extremely fascinating. There's specific tech for so many factors of the game and even the lower tiers may have some tools going for them against specific MU's.

Yea I notice the same thing. Link is especially good at mid levels of play. In fact almost all characters can do well at mid levels of play and the game actually feels balanced....but then you get to a national or larger regional level and it all seems to fall apart.

 

[Roukiske]

Yea I notice the same thing. Link is especially good at mid levels of play. In fact almost all characters can do well at mid levels of play and the game actually feels balanced....but then you get to a national or larger regional level and it all seems to fall apart.

Very true, I can't deny that high mastery of these upper tiers will just decimate through the shortcomings of others.

 

[EddyBearr]

Since everyone is posting their tier list, this is definitely the way I voted:

(S) Top Tier: Defines the meta, no big disadvantages and no troublesome matchups, should almost always win.
1. Fox: Worst matchups are even, beats most characters, has best success of all characters in tournaments.
2. Falco: [I think] worst matchups are even, beats most characters. Not quite as dominant as Fox, but hugely successful.

(A) High Tier: Large part of meta, can always compete and can definitely win anything
3. Marth: Even with Top Tiers, only slightly loses to Sheik, beats most everything else. Great success, but isn't meta-defining like Spacies.
4. Sheik: Can compete with any character and beats vast majority of characters. Great success, but hasn't seen success like Spacies or Marth.
5. Peach: Can compete with any character. Has seen greater success than Sheik at top level, but Sheik has wider success.
6. Jigglypuff: Can compete with any character, but Fox is troublesome. Has seen great heights, but not as much below that -- There's an argument for being a tier below.

(A-) Borderline Tier: Basically, High Tiers that have something holding them back. Could win majors if lucky.
7: Ice Climbers: Can compete with any character other than Peach. Wobbles has gotten 2nd, and there are many high level IC's.
8: Captain Falcon: Has trouble competing with Fox/Falco/Sheik, but always stands a chance. Sadly, has not seen success in years akin to IC's, and I'd argue isn't capable of as much as them.

(B) Viable Tier: Characters who aren't high tier, but generally can still compete. Getting top 8 at a major is probably as high as they'll get.
9: Samus: Disproportionately viable against Top Tiers, but disadvantaged otherwise. Samus has seen consistent "top 8 is the dream" success at major tournaments.
10: Dr. Mario: A couple disproportionately good matchups on high tiers, and can probably compete with every character, but very often at a significant disadvantage otherwise. Doc has seen top 8 at mjors a few times, but is no longer represented. Doc is carried by his matchup spread for this list.
11: Luigi: Similar to Doc, but more polarizing. Luigi is pretty well represented at high levels of play and has seen consistently decent results.

(C) Niche Tier: Characters who are viable or even Borderline under specific circumstances or specific skillsets, but are a below Viable otherwise.
12: Mario: He's basically a worse Doc, but it's hard to argue he's that much worse. Mario is very poorly represented and is carried mostly by Doc.
13: Pikachu: Similar to Doc, though while Doc will largely beat mid (B&C) tiers, Pikachu will often have just as much trouble with them as he does ascending tiers. Pikachu has been proven viable if you're good and dedicated enough, but also has been showcased as having significant and exploitable flaws, such as range, commitment, and overall defense problems.14: Yoshi: Yoshi is a bit of a wild card, largely driven by aMSa. Just under the other "mid tier hero" seems reasonable enough to me, for now.
15: Ganondorf: Ganondorf has seen success, and Ganondorf can win, but Ganondorf is almost always at a relatively large disadvantage. Ganondorf can be made to work, but getting top 8 with Ganondorf would be astounding.
16: Young Link: Young Link is a low tier who stands a chance against high tier floaties, and sits here as a counterpick character.

(D) Low Tier: Characters who have seen success, but are not really viable and shouldn't win anything beyond a local level.
17: Link: Most of us can name off Link mains, or times Link mains have done well or beaten players, but Link is bad, and doesn't even share Young Link's saving grace.
18: Donkey Kong: Same story as Link, though less storied and more volatile. DK can arguably compete with Fox, which is astounding for him, but DK sucks.
19: Zelda: The only reason Zelda isn't bottom tier is because Zelda has seen tournament success more like Link or DK than the bottom tiers.

(F) Bottom Tier: These characters are not viable, and should not even win at the local level. Don't lose to them.
20: Mr. Game & Watch: G&W has strong combos and good disjoint, as well as decent moves for neutral, which makes him stand above other bottom tiers. Plus, he bodies the bottom tiers since they can't exploit the defensive weaknesses that subjugate him to bottom tier to begin with.
21: Roy: Roy is like a poor man's Mr. Marth & Watch. With huge problems, he still has good movement, disjoint, a grab, and has somewhat volatile kill potential. He shouldn't win, but if the player can dash dance well enough and either combo or noodle-slap the opponent long enough, then Roy could win. Roy at least gets to play the neutral game, which the worst bottom tiers can't enjoy.
22: Mewtwo: Mewtwo is atrocious, but has seen skilled use by a couple players. That's the only reason he's not 23 or worse.
23: Kirby: Kirby is the last character who can play a real neutral game, with fast and somewhat decent moves with which to cover options or control/gain space. K
24: Ness: Ness has more semblance of a neutral gameplan than Pichu/Bowser, but I don't really think Ness has a legitimate gameplan and view him more as a flailing character hoping for a semi-combo. His punish game is superior to Kirby's, but his neutral and defense are worse giving him a worse standing to me.
25: Pichu: Pichu can tomahawk you, and that's about it. He loses to basically any hitboxes anywhere, but at least he can get places.
26: Bowser: Bowser loses to hitboxes, and can't get around them. His frame data is so bad that there is no excuse for any player who is at least adept at every important aspect of the game to lose to Bowser, even if played by a top level player. Bowser can not come close to creating opportunities or siezing them when they appear -- Bowser has to be handed opportunities on a silver platter to do anything.

 

[TrustyBag]

I main Falco. IC's beat Sheik and Puff, what high tiers do Ganon and Samus beat?

I feel that Ganon is a really solid character, he doesn't necessarily have a clear advantage over higher tiers but he is just all around solid. Also Ganon mains are getting better and better, Kage and Bizz have been pretty good for many years and Eikelmann has gotten really good recently. As for Samus like I said does very well against Fox. I don't think ICs are bad. Nor do I think they not a viable character in a tournament. I just think that Ganon and Samus are just a little bit better than ICs.

 

[keymanb]

Kingpiano, do you got an account on the smash ladder? I want to play you PM or melee

 

[Spak]

I find everyone's lack of faith (in Roy) disturbing.