Meta 2015 Community Tier List Voting

[Fortress | Sveet]

I'm wondering why you think Falco should be above Fox. It's quite an uncommon belief, I'd like to hear what you have to say about it

Its not that uncommon. Of course fox is the majority opinion, but of those with non-fox #1, falco is one of the most common alternates. I will probably release a statistic about that in the end.

 

[AJawesome07]

Well you're in a thread that is based on how you vote and rank each character. Not only that but each member's ordered vote combined with a healthy sample size helps display large deviations, trends, and gaps which yields results that are far more interesting than just "tiers only" which would end up looking very similar. If you were to distill it down to it's purest essence there are only 2 tiers that really matter - viable and non-viable - but that would get boring quickly and that's not the goal of this thread.

I feel specific placements only hurt new players if they are impressionable enough to follow what everyone else thinks blindly. It's true a lot of people are prone to mimic other's opinions and thoughts but honestly if that's their mentality then they are far better off starting with a top tier character. They'd most likely be doomed for failure if they tried maining a non-top tier since you have to be creative and intelligent to find any success instead of just watching and copying.

I realize where I'm posting this. I only wrote this to get a thought of mine publicized. I don't even feel that strongly about this. I think it would just be a nice step that the community could take. I know that at the moment, most people won't agree with me, but with dedication, further fleshing out of my ideas, and more solid examples, maybe I could convince some more people.

 

[kingPiano]

I realize where I'm posting this. I only wrote this to get a thought of mine publicized. I don't even feel that strongly about this. I think it would just be a nice step that the community could take. I know that at the moment, most people won't agree with me, but with dedication, further fleshing out of my ideas, and more solid examples, maybe I could convince some more people.

Well even when you split it up into tiers....you are still saying "Hey these characters are clearly better, don't bother with the others" adding numbers really doesn't do anything different, it just clarifies placement.

Your example of Ice Climber/Falcon compared to Falco/Fox, well spacies (and Marth) ARE far better by a much larger margin just based on how well they do against all of the cast in comparison to ICs/Falcon. So it's not illogical at all to say that Fox is leaps and bounds above Ice Climbers and a ranking should reflect that. In fact going by your system I would say spacies should technically be in a tier of their own above S with Marth and maybe Sheik.

 

[RoyIsOurBoy_TTG]

My list is

Top tier
1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Marth
4. Sheik
5. Puff
6. Peach

Mid tier
7. Ice Climbers
8. Captain Falcon
9. Pikachu
10. Samus
11. Ganondorf
12. Dr. Mario
13. Yoshi

Low tier
14. Young Link
15. Luigi
16. Mario
17. Link
18. Donkey Kong

Bottom tier
19. Roy
20. Mewtwo
21. Game & Watch
22. Zelda
23. Ness
24. Kirby
25. Pichu
26. Bowser

Marth deserves to be ranked higher than Sheik right now. At Apex 2015, PewPewU showed that Marth can beat Puff, let alone Hungrybox, and PPMD won the tournament using mostly Marth, beating the Swedish Foxes, Leffen and Armada, on his way to the top. So Marth definitely needs to move up.

Shiek-Puff, Ice Climbers-Captain Falcon, and Dr. Mario-Ganondorf are toss ups. Sheik is probably better, but she really hasn't won a national in quite awhile, and meanwhile Puff has. Falcon has the potential, but he really needs to start placing high until I personally put him above ICs. Dr. Mario and Ganondorf are close, but I put Ganondorf up mainly because of how he has been doing right now. Ganon has more dedicated players, whereas previous Dr. Mario mains have moved on, in particular Shroomed who switched to Sheik. And Yoshi earns a spot as a mid tier really just thanks to aMSa.

The Low tiers have just a little bit of potential to do well in big tournaments, though Link and DK are only hanging by a thread in that category. And then the bottom tiers, they have no chance. 19 through 23 (Roy through Ness) could be in any order, and then the Bottom 3 (Kirby, Pichu, and Bowser) are set in stone as far as I'm concerned. Whether the order changes, they will always be the three worst characters of the game. I know a lot of people think Pichu should move out, but not me. Pichu still sucks, and sucks hard.

 

[cemo]

I have:

1 - Fox
2 - Marth
3 - Falco
4 - Sheik

5 - Ice Climbers
6 - Jigglypuff
7 - Peach
8 - Falcon

9 - Samus
10 - Pikachu
11 - Luigi
12 - Yoshi

13 - Dr. Mario
14 - Ganondorf
15 - Mario
16 - Link

17 - DK
18 - Young Link
19 - Game and Watch
20 - Mewtwo

21 - Pichu
22 - Roy
23 - Ness
24 - Zelda
25 - Kirby
26 - Bowser

My personal tier list that I voted,but i had some trouble with 17 - 20. Yes, I do actually think ICs are 5th and we'll probably be seeing them place highly more often.

 

[chrbir5]

 

[SuperFangChan]

1 - Fox
2 - Falco
3 - Marth
4 - Sheik
5 - Peach
6 - Jigglypuff
7 - Ice Climbers
8 - Falcon
9 - Samus
10 - Pikachu
11 - Yoshi
12 - Luigi
13 - Doctor Mario
14 - Ganondorf
15 - Young Link
16 - Mario
17 - Link
18 - Donkey Kong
19 - Mr. Game & Watch
20 - Zelda
21 - Roy
22 - Mewtwo
23 - Ness
24 - Pichu
25 - Kirby
26 - Bowser

 

[ZeST]

S Tier
Fox
Falco
Sheik
Marth
Puff
Peach

A Tier
Captain Falcon
Samus
Pikachu
Ice Climbers

B Tier
Luigi
Ganondorf
Yoshi
Young Link
Dr. Mario
Mario

C Tier
Roy
Ness
Mewtwo
Link

D Tier
Game And Watch
Bowser
Donkey Kong

F Tier
Zelda
Pichu
Kirby

 

[Rachman]

S Tier
1. Fox (Fox)
2. Falco (Still 2 in my eyes although 2-5 are very close. SDI does hurt his punish game much more than the others)
3. Marth (Pretty much even or better vs every character. Very honest though and gets a run for his money against almost every character)
4. Sheik (Fox MU just seems a little challenging but no one else is really bad for her IMO)
5. Puff (INCREDIBLY underdeveloped and Juan still puts on a clinic against the top Foxes in the world)
6. Peach (A step beneath the other S tiers IMO but too much better than the rest to really put them all in the same tier. Godlike punish game and frame data)

A Tier
7. Ice Climbers (My heart says Falcon is better than ICs and Peach but reality and results say otherwise)
8. Captain Falcon ( I'm doubting very much in the ability of this character to keep up and it breaks my heart)
9. Yoshi (Not just aMSa hype but this character is seriously good. Has legitimately winning MUs vs several characters above him if a certain threshold of tech skill is passed imo. While I think the S tier should be shrunk to 5-6, if it has to remain larger it should include Yoshi as the 9th IMO)
10. Pikachu (Don't think this character should be doing this well against non fast fallers but facts are facts)
11. Samus (Results clearly show Samus can win and win consistently)
12. Luigi (Luigi mains haven't shown the same results as Plup and ilk on a national scale but this character is more than capable of Axe level play)

B Tier
13. Doc (everyone after this is holding you back at top play but they can still work and even work well in certain MUs)
14. Ganon (I think he's garbage vs Fox/Falcon but his Marth/Peach/ICs/Puff MUs are pretty good and the Sheik MU is not the limiting factor it is generally presented as)
15. Mario (Pretty much just alright all around whereas those above him have real strengths to boast of)
16. Y. Link (above Link because he is actually a fantastic pocket)
17. Link
18. DK (Not good but can fish for grabs and 0-death easily)
19. G and W (actually acceptable. Wouldn't be embarrassing losing to Qerb in the slightest)

C tier
20. Roy (Could be overrating him a bit but decent fast faller MUs, specifically on FD make him less bad than the others)
21. Kirby (Massively underrated among the low tiers, amazing Falcon MU and passable Marth and Falco MUs mean he isn't as god awful as he initially appears to be
22. Pichu (super fast, small, god nair, insane recovery. Dies way too early though)
23. Mewtwo (pretty trash honestly but can do some stuff to fast fallers)
24. Zelda (similar story but can't really get grabs cuz it's so crap. Fishes for kicks a lot which makes her seem decent but it's moreso annoying than anything else. IF she gets a grab it's scary for fast fallers though)
25. Ness (I understand this character less than I admittedly should but unless jackets prove to be absolutely game changing he is just horrid unfortunately)
26. Bowser (Up-B OOS)

Upon reexamining the list, the game is far more balanced than it is generally considered. I'd say the top 12 could beat any player in the world on any given day (with Doc and Ganon being possibly up there as well and the rest of B tier holding up well in certain MUs. Still, there is a stark difference between the toolkits of Fox and even really good characters such as Ice Climbers.

 

[Spak]

You better believe it!

Ideally I would confirm the identity of everyone who supplied their smashboards account, but we will see how practical that ends up being. It hasn't even been 12 hours and I already have 6x the votes I got in an entire month last time. I'm already excited to see the results

Do you want us to PM you with our identities so it will be easier for you to ID everyone?

 

[Earthboundy]

S tier
Fox
Falco
A
Marth
Jigglypuff
Shiek
Peach
Ice Climbers
Captain Falcon
Yoshi
Samus
Pikachu
B
Doctor Mario
Luigi
Mario
Ganondorf
D
Young Link
Donkey Kong
Link
Roy
Zelda
Mr.Game and Watch
Mewtwo
F
Ness
Pichu
Bowser
Kirby

 

[Scaremonger]

Relevant characters are placed in order and into groups based on color. Irrelevant characters are at the bottom and are in 2 groups. Something about this list is that while a few of the characters are not placed in the way they are represented today by their top players, this is where I think they would be placed at their maximum human potential, which is what I think a tier list should reflect. A character being underrepresented does not make them worse.
- In such a movement-based game like Melee, I think it's undeniable that Fox is #1. Although Falcon has a faster overall run speed, Fox still accelerates to his top speed faster and beats Falcon in pretty much every single other category. with his amazing ground movement, frame 1 lagless; invincible; set knockback move, great priority, and amazing approach-forcing projectile, Fox has the best, least committal, and most threatening neutral game of any character. On top of this, Fox has pretty dominating matchups overall across the cast; he has an unfairly advantageous matchup against almost every mid-tier, beats most top-tiers solidly, and just absolutely crushes ICs and Puff if he doesn't make enormous mistakes. There are very few real "flaws" that you can say Fox truly has, and most of those "flaws" are advantageous in other situations (usually more often an advantage than a disadvantage, like being a fastfaller). Godlike recovery, amazing punish game, etc. Fox is pretty good.

- The only character in the game for which I think there are genuinely sound arguments for having an advantage vs Fox in Melee's endgame. While the Fox neutral game obliterates everything it's able to interact with, Marth is able to deny this interaction with his absurdly disjointed hitboxes. His spacey punish game also has the best ratio of power to ease of consistent execution of any character by a pretty solid margin. Even though I think Marth has a slight advantage vs Fox, he's still 2nd because Marth has definite flaws (high endlag on most moves, bad recovery, lack of speed, very fragile and can easily lose stocks if he loses neutral) and most of his matchups with mid and even low-tier characters are pretty unbiased, though he has a slight edge against pretty much all of them. I think Marth has only two "disadvantageous" matchups, which would be against Falcon and Yoshi.

- There are many reasons why I think Falcon is the 3rd best character in the game. Overall, I think his only losing matchup is a slight disadvantage against Fox, which could still arguably be an even matchup. Every other character, I think he has an advantage against. The biggest reason he beats everyone is just because of how ridiculously well he can punish every character. Whether it's techchasing, or airwobbling, with optimized punishes he should be able to outpunish every character. Being the fastest character in the game is another really huge thing, just being able to move so much every frame on the ground and in the air, and having so much control over it frame-by-frame, which not only allows him to be super unpredictable, but also allows him to put giant super-powerful hitboxes almost anywhere on the stage at any point in time. Shield drops, pivots, and other movement techniques all create tons of avenues for him to create these openings for himself and get the necessary grabs or hits into kills that he needs. One final thing about Falcon: It seems to be a pretty common trend nowadays to think Falcon is bad, and it makes sense that people think this. Melee is reaching crazy, crazy levels of optimization, and it seems as though a lot of people are beginning to believe that this game is going to evolve into a this crazy monster of a game where everyone executes perfect, optimized decisions. Hax has talked a lot about how non-spacies are "mistake-elicitors", but I think he's totally mislead on this, and relying on the spacey making a mistake is not the future of non-spacies. Not forcing options through proactive play is what I think his fatal flaw was, as a Falcon main. Staggering your opponent and forcing bad options out of fear is a super real thing, and Falcon thrives so hard in this scenario. Falcon's ability to capitalize off of one single read is arguably more powerful and meaningful than any other character in the game. This, along with the pretty wide array of simple methods of shutting down Falcon in mid-level play (the level that the vast majority of the active Melee community plays), and his lack of representation/previous development is what contributes to people thinking he's worse than the Ice Climbers or even Samus/Luigi/Pikachu in a lot of peoples' minds.

- Sheik is pretty non polarizing. I don't think she has any matchups that are super favorable for her, but she doesn't have any that she loses super hard either. Fox and ICs can be really difficult, and Falco/puff are a pretty "hard 50", but all of them can definitely be overcome. A lot of her low/mid-tier matchups are pretty overratedly good for her as well, her "low-tier destroyer" title is pretty outdated nowadays, I think. Another reason for me placing Sheik below the 3 above her is that she's a lot harder than all 3 of them to play at the very top level, except maybe Falcon. Both of those two require a ton of precision and playing against their opponents' minds to be successful.

- Falco is the most overrated character in the game. He's really slow on the ground, which is a big problem in this game. SDI and powershielding can make life really hard for Falco. Lasers are definitely an overrated projectile: it's a 26 frame jumping commitment to put out a hitbox that only covers a thin line of horizontal space; high lasers can be ducked or even run under, and low lasers can often be jumped over followed with an aerial. Powershielding lasers makes them less effective at a lot of spacings, shield -> move OoS is also really effective, and even tanking lasers and acting after being hit can work really well, especially combined with SDI. A fresh laser immobilizes the other character for 12 frames, which is cut down to 7 if they CC (characters can CC out of run in 1 frame out of standing or running). The laser only does 3% anyway, just eating lasers isn't even that big of a deal. Good SDI and DI also really hurts Falco's punish game. In a lot of positions on the stage, if you DI a hit really hard, he just can't follow up because he's too slow. I think every character above him technically wins the punish game (though it's really hard with Sheik) and Peach really wins the punish game pretty hard. Matchupwise, Falco gets beaten pretty badly by Marth, Falcon, and especially Peach. Still either loses slightly or goes even with Fox and Sheik. Probably beats Puff and ICs slightly. Most of his mid-tier matchups are pretty favorable for him, but there can be pretty unforgiving punish games and a few wonky neutrals.

- Puff is the first character with a genuinely horrible matchup against a really popular character. Fox can just spam lasers, wall out with bairs and nair, camp platforms, and upthrow upair and just dominate Puff. Unless fox makes massive errors and gets rested, or just gets head and shoulders outplayed, Puff should not beat Fox. With Fox being the best and most popular character in the game, I feel like she can't be higher than this. I still have her pretty high because after Fox, she really doesn't any distinctly bad matchups. She generally has a slight advantage/disadvantage or an even matchup against everyone else except Peach who she seems to beat pretty handily. Her ability to shift her momentum in the air is such an amazing quality, and rest can instantly take stocks from slight errors against a lot of characters.

- Probably the weirdest character in any "fighting game" that I've ever played. They have a few amazing qualities like a pretty solid advantage vs Sheik, being able to reliably and easily take a stock off of a single grab at 0%, having really quick and unpredictable movement, amazing control of the ground, and double aerials/smashes that do like 50 damage per "hit". They also have a few flaws like a bad platform game, being ****ty when Nana is gone, and having horrifically bad matchups against Fox, Falcon, and Peach. However, speed and the ability to take a stock at any given moment still allows them to overcome these bad matchups, though Peach is still incredibly difficult and honestly takes a true top ICs main to not lose to every random Peach ever.

- Peach is a character that my opinion of has gone up and down about for awhile. I used to think she was the 4th best character because of how good she was compared to the rest of the cast against spacies. Now, though, I think how slow she is is just way too big of a flaw for her to be better than the other characters that were s-tier in the 2013 tier list. She has a few good qualities like being able to be super advantaged against shields and create really big frame advantages with that and convert with it into her really good punish game vs fastfallers. She's one of the 3 characters that can approach really effectively. Of the characters in her tier in this list, she's by far the best against fox, and I think she destroys Falco, but she still has pretty bad matchups against Falcon, Puff, and Marth. After the s-tier, though, she pretty much shuts down almost every single other character in the game in a really simple, intuitive way. She's also almost definitely the easiest character in the game at all levels. In the end, though, Melee is a movement based game, and Peach is super immobile in every category. Like she's the only character that legitimately can't get actionable invincibility on a ledgedash.

- Yoshi might be in his own tier, I dunno. He has a lot of super bad matchups against Peach, Falcon, and Fox. Still, in the end, because of a handfull of really stupid, ugly mechanics, he's able to beat a lot of good characters. Yoshi is the best example of a character with "limit matchups", which is a matchup that goes a certain way until a certain level of optimization is broken. For Yoshi, the Sheik matchup is completely terrible until he reaches the level of precision where he can make her super fast tilts consistently unsafe with parrying. At that level, I think Yoshi beats Sheik. The same goes for Falco (even) and Marth (Yoshi destroys). Yoshi vs ICs is probably the weirdest matchup in the game that you might see late in a bracket at a major, but I think it's evenish. The way Yoshi is able to disregard a lot of concepts in this game (just armoring through shinespikes, armoring through throw -> move combos, parrying anything that isn't multihit, etc.) makes him a character that can genuinely contest other top-tiers. His biggest problem is that a lot of characters can camp him pretty hard, and any character that has something to beat his stupidity (multihit moves > parrying) has a pretty strong matchup against him.

- characters that are really bad but can do things.

- characters that are really really really bad and can't do things.

All 9 characters at the top are what I consider the "viable" characters. It's a really ambiguous term, and even my own definition of it changes all the time. Maybe the first 5 characters are the ones that I think can win an international tournament without counterpicking for the vast majority of sets, and the subsequent 4 can play a major role in winning one with moderate to heavy counterpicking. It's really hard to define what I really mean by "viable", it's just hard to apply something so black and white like that. I guess these 9 are just what I consider the legitimate characters.

 

[Yeroc]

As a point of discussion, I find it curious that you use defensive laser camping as a reason that Fox beats Jiggs, but ignore it entirely when considering Falco's matchups. Just because most Falcos are aggressive to a fault doesn't make the character magically less good at shutting opponents down. As an aside, I think this is actually one of the reasons that Falco obliterates Falcon: there's literally nothing Cap'n can do to overcome uber-defensive Falco play.

 

[MEnKIRBZ]

S+
Fox
Falco
Marth
S
Puff
Peach
Sheik
S-
Falcon
ICS
A+
Pikachu
Ganondorf
Yoshi
Samus
A
Luigi
Doc mariomario
A-
Mario
Yl
B
Link
D
Dk
G&w
Zelda
Roy
F
Mewtwo
Pichu
Ness
Bowser
Kirby

 

[Scaremonger]

As a point of discussion, I find it curious that you use defensive laser camping as a reason that Fox beats Jiggs, but ignore it entirely when considering Falco's matchups. Just because most Falcos are aggressive to a fault doesn't make the character magically less good at shutting opponents down. As an aside, I think this is actually one of the reasons that Falco obliterates Falcon: there's literally nothing Cap'n can do to overcome uber-defensive Falco play.

Falcon is faster than Falco. Fox is faster than Puff. You can't projectile camp someone that's that much faster than you. Falcon being able to do "literally nothing" about defensive Falco is just not true.

 

[Spak]

Falcon's worst MU is against Falco, second is Fox, then Shiek. He only has one favorable MU against anyone above him, and that's Peach. Marth is even and Puff isn't too bad, but Falcon's bad MUs w/ the top 3 make him so low.

 

[Cu29]

I already voted, but I guess I'll show what I did

S
Fox
Falco
Marth
Sheik
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon
Peach

A
Ice Climbers
Samus
Pikachu

B
Yoshi
Luigi
Dr Mario
Mario
Ganondorf

C
Young Link
Link
Roy
Donkey Kong

D
Mewtwo
Ness
Game & Watch

F
Zelda
Bowser
Pichu
Kirby

 

[Scaremonger]

Falcon's worst MU is against Falco, second is Fox, then Shiek. He only has one favorable MU against anyone above him, and that's Peach. Marth is even and Puff isn't too bad, but Falcon's bad MUs w/ the top 3 make him so low.

The entire point of my post is to say that this is just not true. Also, the idea that Falcon's worst matchup is Falco consistently comes from people who don't play Falcon at all. It's easy to think this because Falco's methods of playing against Falcon are really simple, and at mid-levels Falco has a lot of pretty easy methods to destroy Falcon. At the top level, that just isn't true. Not really sure how else to actually respond to this since you're basically just making a bunch of statements that don't really have any reasoning behind them. It's hard to question reasoning when it isn't actually there.

 

[ItzaMeLuigi]

I'm not the most experienced player so take this with a grain of salt.

S+
Fox
Falco
Marth
Sheik

S
Puff
Peach

S-
ICS
Falcon

A+
Pikachu
Samus
Luigi

A
Doc
Yoshi
Mario

B
Dorf
YLink

C
DK
Link
G&W

C-
Pichu
Roy
Mewtwo
Ness
Zelda

F
Kirby
Bowser

 

[keymanb]

My votes

S

1. Reason? I think a lot of people believe fox is the greatest, so first I just didn't want to hide my opinion, Falco I think is actually underrated. Out of all the S tier characters, he has the least liked play style of top professional players, he's a clone of fox often behind his shadow, I don't feel even his true potential has even been found yet, same with fox. He's much slower and has some of the worst recovery in the game, and the mindset of lot's of people is Speed<Power, but that isn't always the case. If that was so true for every case, wouldn't every person be playing Sonic in brawl, or even worse, falcon in brawl? I really just wanted to get my word out there. I don't think tiers will effect who I play as, as I love both falco and fox and play them both.

2. Really obvious he would be 1st or 2nd. He's 2nd on my tier list due to his KO and combo ability (Compared to falco)

3. This character should easily have zero disadvantages in the MU, if the player properly understands his opponents such as a Falco or Fox, he could juggle, take advantage of their linear recovery, and even just plain beat the crap out of them.

4. Shiek is still overrated from the old days as the best character in smash. 4th is most likely the best placement for her.

5. Jiggly is fine where she is, a solid S tier character who shouldn't be degraded for her appearance.

6. In my mind, I think falcon has an advantage against peach and should take her place. However he has AIDS matchups against the higher tiers. ESPECIALLY falco.

7. A good placement

8./ Samus is a strong character, who has the ability to use ranged combat and close quarters combat, and she excels at both. She is oddly floaty and is easy to Ariel combo, and she has a poor SHFFL. However I think she earns this spot above Ice climbers and Doc, because of her ability to have decent match ups with the other S tier characters. Ice climbers have the infinite chain grab. Nothing special else about them.

A

9. A solid good character, who is exceptional, but nothing beyond special.

10. His meta has increased, and has been getting higher in tournament placings.

11. Nerfed from 64, always decent in every game.

12. Great edge guarding options, and very interesting air game, arguably some of the best, with excellent range, knockback and damage, to be honest, not even terrible start up lag. He should stay where he was on the 13 tier.

13. aMSa, nothing else to say.

14. Plain as a piece of bread...

B

15. I really won't have much to say beyond this point.

16. Interesting character, interesting placement.

17. He has an excellent SHFFL, better than Marth's, his issue in the tier is his ability to KO. You will often see Roy players use Up+B

18. Better than link?

19.

20. Funny character, plus shaq plays as game and watch.

21. 21 is a good placement for the kid, I mean he's the best of the F tier. He should be B

22.

F

23.

24. This character is useless trash in melee, and his attacks, are telegraphed, dysfunctional, and nothing like the real mewtew we hear 'bout in Pokemon.

25. I love this character, fun and should be higher, but this character. Legit doesn't even have a SHFFL, every character in melee has one except for kirby, that is how bad it is, unless you have some crazy X-ray vision, you can't see it.

Oh and shutouts to

Triple R, best Kirby main in the world.

 

[keymanb]

Relevant characters are placed in order and into groups based on color. Irrelevant characters are at the bottom and are in 2 groups. Something about this list is that while a few of the characters are not placed in the way they are represented today by their top players, this is where I think they would be placed at their maximum human potential, which is what I think a tier list should reflect. A character being underrepresented does not make them worse.
- In such a movement-based game like Melee, I think it's undeniable that Fox is #1. Although Falcon has a faster overall run speed, Fox still accelerates to his top speed faster and beats Falcon in pretty much every single other category. with his amazing ground movement, frame 1 lagless; invincible; set knockback move, great priority, and amazing approach-forcing projectile, Fox has the best, least committal, and most threatening neutral game of any character. On top of this, Fox has pretty dominating matchups overall across the cast; he has an unfairly advantageous matchup against almost every mid-tier, beats most top-tiers solidly, and just absolutely crushes ICs and Puff if he doesn't make enormous mistakes. There are very few real "flaws" that you can say Fox truly has, and most of those "flaws" are advantageous in other situations (usually more often an advantage than a disadvantage, like being a fastfaller). Godlike recovery, amazing punish game, etc. Fox is pretty good.

- The only character in the game for which I think there are genuinely sound arguments for having an advantage vs Fox in Melee's endgame. While the Fox neutral game obliterates everything it's able to interact with, Marth is able to deny this interaction with his absurdly disjointed hitboxes. His spacey punish game also has the best ratio of power to ease of consistent execution of any character by a pretty solid margin. Even though I think Marth has a slight advantage vs Fox, he's still 2nd because Marth has definite flaws (high endlag on most moves, bad recovery, lack of speed, very fragile and can easily lose stocks if he loses neutral) and most of his matchups with mid and even low-tier characters are pretty unbiased, though he has a slight edge against pretty much all of them. I think Marth has only two "disadvantageous" matchups, which would be against Falcon and Yoshi.

- There are many reasons why I think Falcon is the 3rd best character in the game. Overall, I think his only losing matchup is a slight disadvantage against Fox, which could still arguably be an even matchup. Every other character, I think he has an advantage against. The biggest reason he beats everyone is just because of how ridiculously well he can punish every character. Whether it's techchasing, or airwobbling, with optimized punishes he should be able to outpunish every character. Being the fastest character in the game is another really huge thing, just being able to move so much every frame on the ground and in the air, and having so much control over it frame-by-frame, which not only allows him to be super unpredictable, but also allows him to put giant super-powerful hitboxes almost anywhere on the stage at any point in time. Shield drops, pivots, and other movement techniques all create tons of avenues for him to create these openings for himself and get the necessary grabs or hits into kills that he needs. One final thing about Falcon: It seems to be a pretty common trend nowadays to think Falcon is bad, and it makes sense that people think this. Melee is reaching crazy, crazy levels of optimization, and it seems as though a lot of people are beginning to believe that this game is going to evolve into a this crazy monster of a game where everyone executes perfect, optimized decisions. Hax has talked a lot about how non-spacies are "mistake-elicitors", but I think he's totally mislead on this, and relying on the spacey making a mistake is not the future of non-spacies. Not forcing options through proactive play is what I think his fatal flaw was, as a Falcon main. Staggering your opponent and forcing bad options out of fear is a super real thing, and Falcon thrives so hard in this scenario. Falcon's ability to capitalize off of one single read is arguably more powerful and meaningful than any other character in the game. This, along with the pretty wide array of simple methods of shutting down Falcon in mid-level play (the level that the vast majority of the active Melee community plays), and his lack of representation/previous development is what contributes to people thinking he's worse than the Ice Climbers or even Samus/Luigi/Pikachu in a lot of peoples' minds.

- Sheik is pretty non polarizing. I don't think she has any matchups that are super favorable for her, but she doesn't have any that she loses super hard either. Fox and ICs can be really difficult, and Falco/puff are a pretty "hard 50", but all of them can definitely be overcome. A lot of her low/mid-tier matchups are pretty overratedly good for her as well, her "low-tier destroyer" title is pretty outdated nowadays, I think. Another reason for me placing Sheik below the 3 above her is that she's a lot harder than all 3 of them to play at the very top level, except maybe Falcon. Both of those two require a ton of precision and playing against their opponents' minds to be successful.

- Falco is the most overrated character in the game. He's really slow on the ground, which is a big problem in this game. SDI and powershielding can make life really hard for Falco. Lasers are definitely an overrated projectile: it's a 26 frame jumping commitment to put out a hitbox that only covers a thin line of horizontal space; high lasers can be ducked or even run under, and low lasers can often be jumped over followed with an aerial. Powershielding lasers makes them less effective at a lot of spacings, shield -> move OoS is also really effective, and even tanking lasers and acting after being hit can work really well, especially combined with SDI. A fresh laser immobilizes the other character for 12 frames, which is cut down to 7 if they CC (characters can CC out of run in 1 frame out of standing or running). The laser only does 3% anyway, just eating lasers isn't even that big of a deal. Good SDI and DI also really hurts Falco's punish game. In a lot of positions on the stage, if you DI a hit really hard, he just can't follow up because he's too slow. I think every character above him technically wins the punish game (though it's really hard with Sheik) and Peach really wins the punish game pretty hard. Matchupwise, Falco gets beaten pretty badly by Marth, Falcon, and especially Peach. Still either loses slightly or goes even with Fox and Sheik. Probably beats Puff and ICs slightly. Most of his mid-tier matchups are pretty favorable for him, but there can be pretty unforgiving punish games and a few wonky neutrals.

- Puff is the first character with a genuinely horrible matchup against a really popular character. Fox can just spam lasers, wall out with bairs and nair, camp platforms, and upthrow upair and just dominate Puff. Unless fox makes massive errors and gets rested, or just gets head and shoulders outplayed, Puff should not beat Fox. With Fox being the best and most popular character in the game, I feel like she can't be higher than this. I still have her pretty high because after Fox, she really doesn't any distinctly bad matchups. She generally has a slight advantage/disadvantage or an even matchup against everyone else except Peach who she seems to beat pretty handily. Her ability to shift her momentum in the air is such an amazing quality, and rest can instantly take stocks from slight errors against a lot of characters.

- Probably the weirdest character in any "fighting game" that I've ever played. They have a few amazing qualities like a pretty solid advantage vs Sheik, being able to reliably and easily take a stock off of a single grab at 0%, having really quick and unpredictable movement, amazing control of the ground, and double aerials/smashes that do like 50 damage per "hit". They also have a few flaws like a bad platform game, being ****ty when Nana is gone, and having horrifically bad matchups against Fox, Falcon, and Peach. However, speed and the ability to take a stock at any given moment still allows them to overcome these bad matchups, though Peach is still incredibly difficult and honestly takes a true top ICs main to not lose to every random Peach ever.

- Peach is a character that my opinion of has gone up and down about for awhile. I used to think she was the 4th best character because of how good she was compared to the rest of the cast against spacies. Now, though, I think how slow she is is just way too big of a flaw for her to be better than the other characters that were s-tier in the 2013 tier list. She has a few good qualities like being able to be super advantaged against shields and create really big frame advantages with that and convert with it into her really good punish game vs fastfallers. She's one of the 3 characters that can approach really effectively. Of the characters in her tier in this list, she's by far the best against fox, and I think she destroys Falco, but she still has pretty bad matchups against Falcon, Puff, and Marth. After the s-tier, though, she pretty much shuts down almost every single other character in the game in a really simple, intuitive way. She's also almost definitely the easiest character in the game at all levels. In the end, though, Melee is a movement based game, and Peach is super immobile in every category. Like she's the only character that legitimately can't get actionable invincibility on a ledgedash.

- Yoshi might be in his own tier, I dunno. He has a lot of super bad matchups against Peach, Falcon, and Fox. Still, in the end, because of a handfull of really stupid, ugly mechanics, he's able to beat a lot of good characters. Yoshi is the best example of a character with "limit matchups", which is a matchup that goes a certain way until a certain level of optimization is broken. For Yoshi, the Sheik matchup is completely terrible until he reaches the level of precision where he can make her super fast tilts consistently unsafe with parrying. At that level, I think Yoshi beats Sheik. The same goes for Falco (even) and Marth (Yoshi destroys). Yoshi vs ICs is probably the weirdest matchup in the game that you might see late in a bracket at a major, but I think it's evenish. The way Yoshi is able to disregard a lot of concepts in this game (just armoring through shinespikes, armoring through throw -> move combos, parrying anything that isn't multihit, etc.) makes him a character that can genuinely contest other top-tiers. His biggest problem is that a lot of characters can camp him pretty hard, and any character that has something to beat his stupidity (multihit moves > parrying) has a pretty strong matchup against him.

- characters that are really bad but can do things.

- characters that are really really really bad and can't do things.

All 9 characters at the top are what I consider the "viable" characters. It's a really ambiguous term, and even my own definition of it changes all the time. Maybe the first 5 characters are the ones that I think can win an international tournament without counterpicking for the vast majority of sets, and the subsequent 4 can play a major role in winning one with moderate to heavy counterpicking. It's really hard to define what I really mean by "viable", it's just hard to apply something so black and white like that. I guess these 9 are just what I consider the legitimate characters.

Ok, falcon is great. But you can't put him about falco. Falcon's match up with Falco is legit SUICIDE.

 

[Guzzler Guzzler]

Wow I think you're grossly under estimating m2, I don't think he's amazing or anything but the success Taj has had with him leads me to believe he's not the 2nd worst character in the game.

 

[Scaremonger]

Ok, falcon is great. But you can't put him about falco. Falcon's match up with Falco is legit SUICIDE.

It isn't. Falcon beats Falco. He's way faster than Falco is, he wins the punish game, and has really amazing ways of dealing with lasers. Yeah, Falco has really hilariously simple methods of shutting down ****ty mid-level Falcons, but those are all gimmicks that usually end up losing to dashdance grab.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

The entire point of my post is to say that this is just not true. Also, the idea that Falcon's worst matchup is Falco consistently comes from people who don't play Falcon at all. It's easy to think this because Falco's methods of playing against Falcon are really simple, and at mid-levels Falco has a lot of pretty easy methods to destroy Falcon. At the top level, that just isn't true. Not really sure how else to actually respond to this since you're basically just making a bunch of statements that don't really have any reasoning behind them. It's hard to question reasoning when it isn't actually there.

Falcon can run faster, but he is going to struggle to ever find an opening on a defensive Falco. This is because lasers shut down the entire horizontal, forcing falcon to jump, and then once in the air he is at a severe disadvantage. If he tries to remain grounded and shield/powershield lasers, Falco still is advantaged because falcon cannot use his aerial momentum. And when you actually look at hitbox interaction, Falco can beat Falcon's entire moveset with bair and utilt, which means Falcon can't even find trades in most cases, he has to cleanly punish Falco's low lag moves.

All of this leads to the matchup being heavily in favor of Falco. Falcon can still win, because Falco can be tech chased and Falcon has good combos, but that doesn't mean the matchup is anywhere close to even.

 

[kingPiano]

It isn't. Falcon beats Falco. He's way faster than Falco is, he wins the punish game, and has really amazing ways of dealing with lasers. Yeah, Falco has really hilariously simple methods of shutting down ****ty mid-level Falcons, but those are all gimmicks that usually end up losing to dashdance grab.

I pretty much agree with everyone else, not to stack on but just to say it's a common belief because well....it's true. This opinion is also widely shared among smashers that play at the highest levels in this MU. Falco's Laser can easily stop any advances from CF; doesn't matter how much faster he is, Falco's lasers have hitstun...so, yea. CF is also the perfect fall-speed/weight to be Pillar combo'ed to death. I think the real question you have to ask yourself is "how good are the Falco's that I have played?" That might be why you have such a skewed opinion of the MU and characters. CF can also be bodied by a lot of mid/low tiers as well because of his optimal size, combo weight/FS, and terrible recovery. IMO you can't be the high on a tier list but also lose or break even with mid/low tiers

Same thing with Ganondorf, seems very odd that you have him so low. There is only 1 Ganon main in my area and he's not good at all, but I wouldn't base my opinion on the fact that I can whoop him with Pichu. Ganon's still place very high at nationals consistently - Mr Branondorf, Kage, Bizzarro Flame, Coastward, Eikelmann, etc. They would all destroy me.

 

[TrustyBag]

SS Tier
Fox
Falco
Shiek
Marth
Jigglypuff

S Tier
Peach
Captain Falcon

A Tier
Samus
Ganondorf
Ice Climbers
Pikachu

B Tier
Dr. Mario
Luigi
Mario
Young Link
Link

C Tier
Yoshi
Zelda
Donkey Kong
Roy

F Tier
Ness
Game & Watch
Mewtwo
Kirby
Bowser
Pichu

 

[Scaremonger]

Falcon can run faster, but he is going to struggle to ever find an opening on a defensive Falco. This is because lasers shut down the entire horizontal, forcing falcon to jump, and then once in the air he is at a severe disadvantage.

I disagree. PPMD has talked a lot about just directly eating lasers and getting really good at acting out of the 12 frames of immobilization (or 7 if you press down at least 1 frame before being hit). You don't have to jump. Falcon can just move through the lasers. It works with Marth, Falcon can do it too. I think letting yourself get hit, SDIing lasers, and acting on the first frame you're out of stun is a big part of the future of anti-laser strategy. Since he has to land, the lowest possible frame perfect laser gives Falco a +8 frame advantage (4 frames of hitlag + 8 frames of hitstun - 4 frames landing lag). However, low lasers are ****ty against Falcon because he can just nair straight over them. Falco will not be getting the full +8 frame advantage if he's properly lasering against Falcon, which means Falcon can just act on the first frame the stun is gone and either use an aerial at Falco or grab him. SDIing the laser to further his positional advantage adds to this strategy.

If he tries to remain grounded and shield/powershield lasers, Falco still is advantaged because falcon cannot use his aerial momentum. And when you actually look at hitbox interaction, Falco can beat Falcon's entire moveset with bair and utilt, which means Falcon can't even find trades in most cases, he has to cleanly punish Falco's low lag moves.

DD grab will beat AC Bair and Uptilt. Those are gimmicks that shouldn't work on a high-level Falcon.

I pretty much agree with everyone else, not to stack on but just to say it's a common belief because well....it's true. This opinion is also widely shared among smashers that play at the highest levels in this MU. Falco's Laser can easily stop any advances from CF; doesn't matter how much faster he is, Falco's lasers have hitstun...so, yea. CF is also the perfect fall-speed/weight to be Pillar combo'ed to death. I think the real question you have to ask yourself is "how good are the Falco's that I have played?" That might be why you have such a skewed opinion of the MU and characters. CF can also be bodied by a lot of mid/low tiers as well because of his optimal size, combo weight/FS, and terrible recovery. IMO you can't be the high on a tier list but also lose or break even with mid/low tiers

Same thing with Ganondorf, seems very odd that you have him so low. There is only 1 Ganon main in my area and he's not good at all, but I wouldn't base my opinion on the fact that I can whoop him with Pichu. Ganon's still place very high at nationals consistently - Mr Branondorf, Kage, Bizzarro Flame, Coastward, Eikelmann, etc. They would all destroy me.

Falco's lasers are overrated. See my response to Sveet.

Falcon should not be getting zero to deathed by pillars consistently. Falcon is so heavy, and Falco has to do way more damage. He should be using SDI/DI to make Falco unable to get a true followup from his dair/shine, and Falco has so much more room for error due to having to do a lot more hits than Falcon. Falcon grabs Falco, techchases into a knee, and now Falco is offstage (dead). Falcon can convert random hits and grabs into stocks overall waaay more effectively than Falco can. Falco is clearly capable of zero to deathing Falcon, but Falcon does the same to Falco quicker, more guaranteed, and in less hits.

I'm not sure what mid/low-tier you think beats Falcon either, lol.

I'm not basing my opinions on the Falcos I beat. The matchup sucks at a mid-level, which is where I'm playing. My opinions stem from analyzing the characters and seeing the things Falcon is capable of by watching and talking to much higher level players than myself.

Ganondorf is ****ty because he's slow as hell. He can't get the same followups that Falcon can, and doesn't really have the same kinds of threats that give the opponent any reason to be afraid of him like they would against Falcon.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Even if its not a low laser, you're still going to be at a huge frame disadvantage. Sure, thats an interesting mixup, but it is not actually a good strategy. Good strategies are good even when the opponent knows what you want to do.

And yes, I know DD grab will work to punish lag of moves. I think you missed the part where I said "he has to cleanly punish falco's low lag moves". I was pointing out that Falcon cannot actually challenge Falco's attacks.

 

[sundude499]

I'm currently debating with myself on whether Fox or Marth is #1 and whether Falco or Sheik is #4.

Thoughts?

fox is vfery good, he is hast and is a fastfaller he can put up a fearsome preassire game and can gimp off stage. marth is floaty but has a huge grab range and has a disjointed hitbox he can be very good in edgegaurding. i pick fox due to his versatility

 

[Guzzler Guzzler]

SS Tier
Fox
Falco
Shiek
Marth
Jigglypuff

S Tier
Peach
Captain Falcon

A Tier
Samus
Ganondorf
Ice Climbers
Pikachu

B Tier
Dr. Mario
Luigi
Mario
Young Link
Link

C Tier
Yoshi
Zelda
Donkey Kong
Roy

F Tier
Ness
Game & Watch
Mewtwo
Kirby
Bowser
Pichu

In what world are Samus and Ganon better than Ice Climbers

 

[Scaremonger]

Even if its not a low laser, you're still going to be at a huge frame disadvantage. Sure, thats an interesting mixup, but it is not actually a good strategy. Good strategies are good even when the opponent knows what you want to do.

And yes, I know DD grab will work to punish lag of moves. I think you missed the part where I said "he has to cleanly punish falco's low lag moves". I was pointing out that Falcon cannot actually challenge Falco's attacks.

But... he won't be at a huge frame disadvantage, lol. If Falco does 3 frame perfect inputs, he can get a maximum of a +4 frame advantage on hit. Anything lower than that laser height gets naired over. with his far superior mobility and SDI, Falcon should be able to position himself to where Falco can't hit him with any of his moves that are fast enough to capitalize off of this frame advantage.

If Falco commits to a rising bair, Falcon can easily come in and punish the lag. It's just a matter of timing, it's not some kind of crazy frame perfect input. Falco jumping with a rising bair means he has to put himself in the air for at least 23 frames, and is overall a 28 frame commitment. Overall, since I'm not sure if it's even possible to be completely frame perfect with the bair, Falco will be in the air for 25 frames. Overall a 30 frame commitment minus 7 frames for the grab is 23 frames. I don't know if you're just playing bad Falcons, but the amount of ground Falcon can cover in 23 frames is pretty huge. Overall, Falcon should have ~15 frames to position himself, and then 10 frames where the hitbox is gone before Falco can shine where Falcon can actually grab it. I think this is a gimmick.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

People dream about being +4 on shield. To be +4 at a distance means falcon is behind 4 frames on top of the time he has to spend dashing and starting whatever approach option. This is a huge frame disadvantage. If you tried this and falco simply dashed behind his laser to dair, then you get hit if you do anything but shield (which falco still doesn't care about).

Not to mention you can't do this strategy indefinitely. If the neutral turned into eating the laser and then both players respacing (neither player wanting to commit first) then Falco is winning because he is slowly chipping damage. The marginal victory favors Falco.

I don't think you've actually tried this strategy enough in tournament for you to be able claim the things you are claiming.

 

[kingPiano]

@ Scaremonger if we were to put all bias, theory, and perhaps inexperience aside just look at the numbers in the past and present.


Sheik, Falco, Peach, and Puff have all had far better results and wins at nationals (Also consider that CF has more representation than Puff and Peach as well). So, objectively it's near impossible to put CF above them right now. I mean if it's all opinion and theory lab-based stuff well then any character could be 3rd, but in practical high level play I don't think any argument would be persuasive enough to put CF above all those other top tiers.

 

[Snorlaxes]

A couple things to note: this list was created with trends in the metagame in mind that I think are still developing. These trends include a heavier emphasis on movement in terms of both speed and precision as well as a general increased proficiency with SDI, shield drops, power shields, and ledge dashes. I imagine that in the future, Falco, Sheik, Peach, and Ganon will fare worse than they have in years past. Also, the details of placement beyond B Tier is less refined.

S Tier
1.
2.
3.

A Tier
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.

B Tier
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.

C Tier
14.
15.
16.
17.
18.

F Tier
19.
20.
21.
22.
23.
24.
25.
26.

 

[keymanb]

But... he won't be at a huge frame disadvantage, lol. If Falco does 3 frame perfect inputs, he can get a maximum of a +4 frame advantage on hit. Anything lower than that laser height gets naired over. with his far superior mobility and SDI, Falcon should be able to position himself to where Falco can't hit him with any of his moves that are fast enough to capitalize off of this frame advantage.

If Falco commits to a rising bair, Falcon can easily come in and punish the lag. It's just a matter of timing, it's not some kind of crazy frame perfect input. Falco jumping with a rising bair means he has to put himself in the air for at least 23 frames, and is overall a 28 frame commitment. Overall, since I'm not sure if it's even possible to be completely frame perfect with the bair, Falco will be in the air for 25 frames. Overall a 30 frame commitment minus 7 frames for the grab is 23 frames. I don't know if you're just playing bad Falcons, but the amount of ground Falcon can cover in 23 frames is pretty huge. Overall, Falcon should have ~15 frames to position himself, and then 10 frames where the hitbox is gone before Falco can shine where Falcon can actually grab it. I think this is a gimmick.

Calculating all the frame inputs and lag, doesn't display what ACTUALLY happens in the match. Are you forgetting how easy it is for falco to knock falcon off the stage? The MOMENT falcon is off the stage, it's a stock for falco.

 

[Scaremonger]

@ Scaremonger if we were to put all bias, theory, and perhaps inexperience aside just look at the numbers in the past and present.


Sheik, Falco, Peach, and Puff have all had far better results and wins at nationals (Also consider that CF has more representation than Puff and Peach as well). So, objectively it's near impossible to put CF above them right now. I mean if it's all opinion and theory lab-based stuff well then any character could be 3rd, but in practical high level play I don't think any argument would be persuasive enough to put CF above all those other top tiers.

99% of Falcon's representation is bad players who like exploding knees. It's been this way for like 15 years. Underrepresentation is not quite the correct word, it's more about almost every Falcon player being ****ty and not trying to develop the character.

I think your concern is valid. Sheiks are not winning tourneys. They are not in top 3. Many times they're scarce in top 8. So, we can safely conclude that at the moment Sheik is not the best character in the game.

I do not think this reflects Sheik's potential, but her current status as a character played by those who use her.

Sheik mains are only now beginning to explore more aggressive neutral options that M2K did not employ, or fight matchups M2K would not fight. This new way to play the character will take time to flesh out.

Dr Peepee said this about Sheik awhile back. You can pretty much substitute "sheik" for "Falcon" and "M2K" with "Hax" and get a passage that still makes a lot of sense, despite m2k still actually playing Sheik. Just because a character is not represented in a certain manner does not mean they won't exist as such in Melee's endgame, and it makes no sense to only make a tier list based entirely on what's happening right now.

I don't think I can convince you about eating lasers, @ Fortress | Sveet , so I'll just end here. The final thing is, the +4 advantage is almost never going to happen since Falco needs to have like 3 frame perfect inputs in a row to get it, which is just never ever going to happen multiple times in a row enough for +4 to be any kind of realistic consistent figure. Even if Falco manages to get a 1 frame advantage, Falcon is still faster in pretty much every single category, which puts him at an advantage with good positioning. Eating lasers isn't even some harebrained theory that I pulled out of my ass, PPMD has been talking about "take laser -> dash" with Marth for a long time.

Calculating all the frame inputs and lag, doesn't display what ACTUALLY happens in the match. Are you forgetting how easy it is for falco to knock falcon off the stage? The MOMENT falcon is off the stage, it's a stock for falco.

You seem to have an incredibly simple point of view of the game, and it's pretty obvious that you're a pretty new player. Breaking the entire game down into "Falcon is easy to edgeguard" is a pretty silly oversimplification of how the game works, and the same thing still directly applies with the roles reversed anyway.

 

[keymanb]

99% of Falcon's representation is bad players who like exploding knees. It's been this way for like 15 years. Underrepresentation is not quite the correct word, it's more about almost every Falcon player being ****ty and not trying to develop the character.



Dr Peepee said this about Sheik awhile back. You can pretty much substitute "sheik" for "Falcon" and "M2K" with "Hax" and get a passage that still makes a lot of sense, despite m2k still actually playing Sheik. Just because a character is not represented in a certain manner does not mean they won't exist as such in Melee's endgame, and it makes no sense to only make a tier list based entirely on what's happening right now.

I don't think I can convince you about eating lasers, @ Fortress | Sveet , so I'll just end here. The final thing is, the +4 advantage is almost never going to happen since Falco needs to have like 3 frame perfect inputs in a row to get it, which is just never ever going to happen multiple times in a row enough for +4 to be any kind of realistic consistent figure. Even if Falco manages to get a 1 frame advantage, Falcon is still faster in pretty much every single category, which puts him at an advantage with good positioning. Eating lasers isn't even some harebrained theory that I pulled out of my ***, PPMD has been talking about "take laser -> dash" with Marth for a long time.

You bring, a good case. With proper evidence, I like that. But it's not true. So let's end it here, falco and fox will always have a +2 Advantage against falcon, they have advantages in pretty much every category.

 

[keymanb]

I don't even think you understand how much you are overrating falcon, falcon's trick is he is lethal up close, you can get close to falco because of his lasers, the falco player can INSTANTLY take easy advantage like that, easy as taking candy from a baby. Smash attack him and then send him flying with high percentage. Falcon attempts to return to the ledge, the falco player short hops, fast falls, dair. Stocked. Even GANON has a better matchup against falco than falcon.

 

[Sir Bubbles]

I don't even think you understand how much you are overrating falcon, falcon's trick is he is lethal up close, you can get close to falco because of his lasers, the falco player can INSTANTLY take easy advantage like that, easy as taking candy from a baby. Smash attack him and then send him flying with high percentage. Falcon attempts to return to the ledge, the falco player short hops, fast falls, dair. Stocked. Even GANON has a better matchup against falco than falcon.

LOL no. Falcon's Falco MU may be bad, but Ganon's is worse without a doubt. Basically all of the problems that Falcon has with this MU only that Ganon's punishes, tech chases and movement options aren't guaranteed like Falcon's. Falco can sheild pressure Ganon without giving Ganon a chance to react, and lasers are an even bigger problem for Ganon. Just because Ganon requires 2 less hits to receive the stock doesn't make it better all things considered.

 

[keymanb]

LOL no. Falcon's Falco MU may be bad, but Ganon's is worse without a doubt. Basically all of the problems that Falcon has with this MU only that Ganon's punishes, tech chases and movement options aren't guaranteed like Falcon's. Falco can sheild pressure Ganon without giving Ganon a chance to react, and lasers are an even bigger problem for Ganon. Just because Ganon requires 2 less hits to receive the stock doesn't make it better all things considered.

Falco has a +1 Matchup against ganon

Falco has a +2 Against falcon

Reason why is because ganon's better range and overall damage over falcon. Makes him have better defensive game.