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2013 Community Tier List

Modesty

Smash Apprentice
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Slippi.gg
ALIC#155
I've always kind of liked a tier list to be more set up like:

Tier 1:
Fox
Falco
Sheik
Marth

Tier 2:
Jigglypuff
Peach
Falcon
ICs

Tier 3:
Pikachu
Dr. Mario
Samus

Tier 4:
Gannon
Luigi
Mario
Young Link
Link
Yoshi

Tier 5:
DK
Roy
Mewtwo
Pichu

Tier 6:
Ness
Game and Watch
Zelda
Bowser
Kirby

My list is a bit rough, but I'm mostly highlighting that I would like to see S tier and A tier broken up a bit to be more in depth than it is.
 

NinthWonder

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Samus and Luigi both should be pretty close together, and I'd honestly put both above Pikachu. Samus and Luigi have been validated by numerous players (Duck, Plup, Hugs and Abate, Eddie Mexico, Blea Gelo), while Axe is the only one carrying on the Pikachu metagame. After a while, I think people will figure out the matchup (Apex's results seem to show that).

Samus and Luigi both have a good wavedash that aids their approach and can manipulate the to make them faster than they actually are. Doc at this point is past his time unless a top player picks up the mantle again and takes up the metagame, but at the moment Shroomed only has him as a counterpick. Luigi can attack better because he's so slippery and has a lot of approach mix-ups.

Even though a good Luigi could probably manage to get around Samus, I'd still put her above him simply because of a great projectile game that can really stop Luigi in his tracks.

Ganon should remain towards the bottom, but I have a feeling when Kage and Bizz really level up he'll be sent to the upper levels.
 

gmBottles

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Samus and Luigi both should be pretty close together, and I'd honestly put both above Pikachu. Samus and Luigi have been validated by numerous players (Duck, Plup, Hugs and Abate, Eddie Mexico, Blea Gelo), while Axe is the only one carrying on the Pikachu metagame. After a while, I think people will figure out the matchup (Apex's results seem to show that).

Samus and Luigi both have a good wavedash that aids their approach and can manipulate the to make them faster than they actually are. Doc at this point is past his time unless a top player picks up the mantle again and takes up the metagame, but at the moment Shroomed only has him as a counterpick. Luigi can attack better because he's so slippery and has a lot of approach mix-ups.

Even though a good Luigi could probably manage to get around Samus, I'd still put her above him simply because of a great projectile game that can really stop Luigi in his tracks.

Ganon should remain towards the bottom, but I have a feeling when Kage and Bizz really level up he'll be sent to the upper levels.
I also think that Samus and Luigi should be above Pikachu. Pikachu is a good character, but seems to be becoming increasingly niche. Samus' projectile game and Luigi's movement options open up way more possibilities imo. Doc is also good, but, similar to Pikachu, nobody really uses him anymore. I don't suppose that makes a character worse, but it does mean that their metagame development has sort of halted.

While we're discussing the A tiers, I think that Ganondorf should be at the bottom of his tier. He's good, but he can get walled out too easily by faster characters, or characters with good projectiles. I think that Kage and Bizzaro Flame could prove otherwise, but that's just my 2 cents.
 

1MachGO

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@ gmBottles gmBottles @ NinthWonder NinthWonder

You guys are evaluating information at face value.

Seriously, whats more telling. The fact there are more "good" Luigi's and Samuses? Or the fact that two, more popular characters haven't reached the same level of success as Pikachu?

Popularity provides more datapoints and meta progression, but this doesn't necessarily make a character better. ICs have more high level players than Puff but that doesn't mean ICs are the better character. If anything, its just cementing their limitations.

Samus and Luigi are in the same boat. At this point, I don't see how either character can overcome their lack of aerial mobility or ground options outside of wavedash. How do they combat characters like Marth/Sheik who'll beat them on the ground and juggle the **** out of them? The well rounded movement of Pikachu makes him a stronger character on principle.
 

Sir Bubbles

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My A tier as of right now:

9. Samus- Very strong Fox/Falco MUs, strong moves and good projectiles. Sucks against Marth/Sheik/Peach/Jiggs doe.

10. Doc- CGs nearly everybody, good combo game, decent projectile and decent movement. Horribly short ranged, forcing you to play a game of pokes against every character. Sucks against Marth/Falcon/Peach.

11. Pikachu- Excellent mobility and good projectile warrants a good tier placement. Literally no range and can't do a thing against Marth. 2nd most overrated character in the game.

12. Luigi- 3rd most overrated character in the game. Having high priority and high power moves are one thing, but having cohesive ground/air movement is another. Can combo fast-fallers like nothing else but has to play a game of pokes with bad air speed, and tricky ground movement against every other character.

Rest don't matter.
 

EddyBearr

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@ gmBottles gmBottles @ NinthWonder NinthWonder

You guys are evaluating information at face value.

Seriously, whats more telling. The fact there are more "good" Luigi's and Samuses? Or the fact that two, more popular characters haven't reached the same level of success as Pikachu?
The replication in results. This suggests that the character has true potential, and it's not just a "top tier player" making a subpar character get over-rated. Likewise, Plup with Samus isn't too far below Pikachu, and Plup is definitely not playing the game on the same level as Hbox/Armada/etc, like Axe is.

Popularity provides more datapoints and meta progression, but this doesn't necessarily make a character better. ICs have more high level players than Puff but that doesn't mean ICs are the better character. If anything, its just cementing their limitations.
No, because not a single IC's player is as skilled as HBox. Hbox looks to be another case of a character being over-rated by a top tier player. Beyond that, IC's results with Wobbles are about on par with HBox's results in the last 2 years. If a less-godly player gets as far as a more godly player with a different character, then it suggests that the less-godly player is using a better character.

Samus and Luigi are in the same boat. At this point, I don't see how either character can overcome their lack of aerial mobility or ground options outside of wavedash. How do they combat characters like Marth/Sheik who'll beat them on the ground and juggle the **** out of them? The well rounded movement of Pikachu makes him a stronger character on principle.
Sheik beats Pikachu harder than both Samus and Luigi thanks to Pikachu lacking any legitimate moves besides perhaps d-tilt to challenge Sheik in neutral. Sheik's f-tilt will beat Pikachu's realest options, but will lose to many of Luigi and Samus main options like dsmash and possible even their f-tilts. Likewise, Sheik combos Pikachu better than she could ever combo Samus or Luigi. Pikachu has good movement, but he has terrible hitboxes and frame data. Falcon has some of the best movement in the game, but he's definitely not as good as Falco just because Falcon's moves aren't nearly as good for neutral. Falcon's movement is basically a charade -- he has to wiggle the stick a lot to give the illusion of legitimate options. Likewise, neither Samus nor Luigi have that much trouble with Marth (they of course lose, but the matchups are definitely manageable.)
 
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Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
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Sheik doesnt beat Pikachu worse than she beats Samus. Pikachu's control of the neutral is similar to Falcon's in that it revolves around threatening with dash-jump forward. Sheik's CC game is really the biggest problem for pikachu, not the grabs or tilts. On the other hand, it seems like everything Sheik has was designed to demolish Samus right down to needles destroying all chance at recovery.
 

EddyBearr

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Sheik definitely beats all three characters (Samus/Pikachu/Luigi) pretty handily. I round them all to be about "65-35" matchups. I'd call Luigi more 63, Samus 65, and Pikachu more like 67.

I definitely think Sheik beats Pikachu harder than Samus. Sheik zones Pikachu harder and punishes Pikachu harder than she does for either Luigi or Samus.
 

1MachGO

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The replication in results. This suggests that the character has true potential, and it's not just a "top tier player" making a subpar character get over-rated. Likewise, Plup with Samus isn't too far below Pikachu, and Plup is definitely not playing the game on the same level as Hbox/Armada/etc, like Axe is.
The only reason popularity is important is because it increases the odds of a good player picking up that character and evolving their meta. Replication doesn't have **** to do with it because that player isn't necessarily contributing anything new.

You are more or less saying that if there was a Pikachu main around Hugs or Duck level that we wouldn't be having this conversation. Do you not see the issue with this reasoning? Pikachu isn't worse than Samus. More people simply play Samus.

And while Plup isn't playing the same game as the top 6, neither is Axe (though he is obviously very close). The difference lies in the fact we don't know if Plup can even play at that level with a Samus whereas Axe has more or less proven that he can with Pikachu.

No, because not a single IC's player is as skilled as HBox. Hbox looks to be another case of a character being over-rated by a top tier player. Beyond that, IC's results with Wobbles are about on par with HBox's results in the last 2 years. If a less-godly player gets as far as a more godly player with a different character, then it suggests that the less-godly player is using a better character.
I don't really understand what you're trying to say here. You say that no IC's player is as skilled as HBox but then you say Wobbles has just as good results? Wouldn't that mean Wobbles is as "skilled" as Hbox...? If this is the case, shouldn't ICs be ranked higher than Puff by your logic since Fly and Nintendude are creating better "replication" than S0ft?

Sheik beats Pikachu harder than both Samus and Luigi thanks to Pikachu lacking any legitimate moves besides perhaps d-tilt to challenge Sheik in neutral. Sheik's f-tilt will beat Pikachu's realest options, but will lose to many of Luigi and Samus main options like dsmash and possible even their f-tilts. Likewise, Sheik combos Pikachu better than she could ever combo Samus or Luigi. Pikachu has good movement, but he has terrible hitboxes and frame data. Falcon has some of the best movement in the game, but he's definitely not as good as Falco just because Falcon's moves aren't nearly as good for neutral. Falcon's movement is basically a charade -- he has to wiggle the stick a lot to give the illusion of legitimate options. Likewise, neither Samus nor Luigi have that much trouble with Marth (they of course lose, but the matchups are definitely manageable.)
No lol. Neutral involves creating pressure to find advantages and land hits. The fact Samus can't grab, DD, jump, or shield vs. Marth/Sheik simplifies this process because there are far more situations where they can exert control and put her at a disadvantage. Couple that with the fact Marth and Sheik get wayyyy more off their openings than Samus and the unevenness becomes obvious. (Especially Sheik vs. Samus). Luigi has WD-in/WD-out shenanigans but his other movement options (particularly in the air and on recovery) are nothing short of pathetic. Even if he can bound large amounts of ground space and dsmash the neutral is far simpler because his options are so polarized. How does a Luigi respond in a situations where wavedash is too large of a commitment, his low traction makes everything his opponent does safe on block, and he can't jump?

On top of what Sveet said, Pikachu getting beat by ftilt is a gross oversimplification because Pikachu has to become predictable in the neutral first. He has a decent DD, OoS options, spacing tools, recovery, etc. and can avoid getting camped. A Marth/Sheik applying pressuring vs. a Samus is NOT as easy as vs. Pikachu and your understanding of neutral is completely out of whack if you think it is.
 

BBOY15

Smash Apprentice
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I think aMSa has proven that Yoshi is a viable character when played at the highest level. The tier list is about the highest level of play. There is a HUGE difference between viable and not viable, and therefore there's a huge difference between A tier and B tier. If a tier list has even one character that is improperly categorized as viable or not viable, the tier list just isn't good enough and needs to be updated IMO.
 

Modesty

Smash Apprentice
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Slippi.gg
ALIC#155
I think aMSa has proven that Yoshi is a viable character when played at the highest level. The tier list is about the highest level of play. There is a HUGE difference between viable and not viable, and therefore there's a huge difference between A tier and B tier. If a tier list has even one character that is improperly categorized as viable or not viable, the tier list just isn't good enough and needs to be updated IMO.
I'm not sure how to feel about Yoshi yet. aMSa is an insane Yoshi, and I think Yoshi might be a bit underrated, but I think it's more a testament to the fact that their are a lot of mid tier characters you can make work if you put the time in.
 

Sir Bubbles

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I'm not sure how to feel about Yoshi yet. aMSa is an insane Yoshi, and I think Yoshi might be a bit underrated, but I think it's more a testament to the fact that their are a lot of mid tier characters you can make work if you put the time in.
I think what he's trying to say that there's a viable line up of characters, and Yoshi should be included.

Yeah, Yoshi is weird, but Amsa still did amazing at Apex.
 

Modesty

Smash Apprentice
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Slippi.gg
ALIC#155
I think what he's trying to say that there's a viable line up of characters, and Yoshi should be included.
I suppose i agree with that, but I also find it hard to divide viable and nonviable. I mean without Axe for example I don't think anyone would think Pikachu was viable, but he has shown us that he can be by putting the time in. So that brings into to question how good are characters like Link or Gannon or Mario. Nobody has really blown us away with them, but on paper they don't seem leagues behind Yoshi or Pikachu.
 

Sir Bubbles

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I suppose i agree with that, but I also find it hard to divide viable and nonviable. I mean without Axe for example I don't think anyone would think Pikachu was viable, but he has shown us that he can be by putting the time in. So that brings into to question how good are characters like Link or Gannon or Mario. Nobody has really blown us away with them, but on paper they don't seem leagues behind Yoshi or Pikachu.
It's a good question, honestly. I don't think that a Link will do to well, but if there's a good Ganon/Mario I think they'll be able to do well with the time and effort put into it.
 

the muted smasher

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I think we still have a lot to figure out in melee, while yeah we've fleshed out most of the game we can all think of ways to push the meta forward with someone that's usage is low.

Like the new port discovery with adding 1 frame of extra stun could be huge for some. Maybe bowser because because his up-throw has set knockback.
 

NinthWonder

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A Rookie is climbing up as a Mario main. Got 49th at Apex I think, which isn't too bad at all. I think he tied with the highest placing Ganon too (Bizz).
 
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Worst bottom tier, go. Pichu. Then again, I might be expecting too much from Kirby despite Pichu having a few useful moves.
 
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wedl!!

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Worst bottom tier, go. Pichu. Then again, I might be expecting too much from Kirby despite Pichu having a few useful moves.
pichus nair is too good for him to be worse than kirby who has literally zero useful moves
 

EddyBearr

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Pichu vs Kirby:
Kirby has more range
Even with thunderjolt, I think Kirby has better zoning thanks to grab, u-tilt priority, d-tilt, and fair/bair alongside the speed of his moves.
Kirby has better edgeguards.
Kirby has more consistent KO set-ups (u-tilt auto-combos into bair or uair, reaction-based edgeguards alongside multiple jumps to bait and cover options, pseudo-wall-of-pain/gimps)
Kirby has better defense
Pichu has better recovery.
Pichu has better movement.
Kirby has an actual gameplan, Pichu does not.
Kirby has better matchups.
Kirby has better results.

IMO, worst bottom tier is Bowser then Pichu, then it's either Ness or Kirby. Pichu is atrocious, but at least Pichu can dash-dance and/or tomahawk and do something out-of-it beating reaction time. Bowser can't beat reaction time outside of 2-3 laggy moves, up-B OoS, and his <100% ledge attack, which can usually be respected then punished anyways (or just respected for Up-B & ledge attack.)
 
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NinthWonder

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Kirby can Falcon Punch.

Game over.

Edit: In all honesty, I do seriously believe Bowser is the worse. I actually think all three characters (Bowser, Pichu, Kirby) have options and a possible metagame that have yet to be developed, but Bowser is simply outclaseed by heavy-hitters like Ganon and even Game & Watch. Kirby has some down-throw tech chase options and the fence of pain, with gives him a decent edgeguarding game, effectively killing Bowser's sub-par recovery. Pichu can use neutral air and up air and his general speed to overwhelm the slow turtle.

Also, can both characters duck under his grab?
 
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gmBottles

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Kirby can Falcon Punch.

Game over.

Edit: In all honesty, I do seriously believe Bowser is the worse. I actually think all three characters (Bowser, Pichu, Kirby) have options and a possible metagame that have yet to be developed, but Bowser is simply outclaseed by heavy-hitters like Ganon and even Game & Watch. Kirby has some down-throw tech chase options and the fence of pain, with gives him a decent edgeguarding game, effectively killing Bowser's sub-par recovery. Pichu can use neutral air and up air and his general speed to overwhelm the slow turtle.

Also, can both characters duck under his grab?
I think Bowser's tier list placement is accurate. He might not have the speed or recover ability of Pichu and Kirby, or even Ness, but he does have much more kill potential. He has plenty of good (to a certain extent) kill moves, they just require reads or a good combo. Still bad, but I think he is better than Kirby and Pichu. Plus, if you have wavelanding down with Bowser his movement isn't all that bad.
 

EddyBearr

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I can't really agree with the sentiment.
Kirby's bair has about the same knockback as Bowser's fair while being a better move otherwise, and I think Kirby's uair is stronger than any move bowser has which comes out in less than 20 frames (tested stuff out back in December, forgot most of it). Alongside this, Kirby's uair is very easy to combo into off of u-tilt alongside having a few other easy and pretty-safe-on-attempt set-ups.

Likewise, I found Ness' KO ability to trump both Kirby's and Bowser's when being realistic about moves (EX: He's not going land PK flash [except on ChuDat], Kirby is not going to consistently kirbycide, and Bowser is not going to F-smash someone who knows the matchup). Ness' ability to wavedash -> fsmash, uair off the top after uair combos, bair in a combo or in neutral or with a djc from ground/shield or from an aerial momentum shift, and bthrow beats Bowser's overall KO potential, and beats Kirby's outright KO potential (I'm unsure of how Kirby's gimps would stack up to Ness' outright KO's.)

Bowser's wavelanding would be more significant if Bowser didn't have both an 8-frame jumpsquat and if he had a move akin to Ganon's jab / f-tilt / grab+followups. Maybe up-B works but it's a pretty big frame commitment.
 
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gmBottles

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Eh, maybe it's just because I'm more experienced with Bowser and know how to use him better than Kirby or Pichu. I feel like Kirby doesn't have moves that are quite as useful as Bowser, but that could easily just be me not knowing how to play Kirby as well as I used to. I used to play Kirby a ton and felt like I was having to use the same strategies and moves over and over. Not that Bowser isn't like that (up-b OoS x100) but it just feels that way to me.
 

Quillion

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I think the community should probably adopt a tier system similar to Smogon, which has tiers based on use (which doesn't necessarily correspond to effectiveness) instead of effectiveness. We've seen that even low-tier characters can see use in specific situations.

It should be OU (Fox, Falco, etc.), UU (Ganondorf, Samus, Yoshi, etc.), RU, and UU.

Trying to rate characters on effectiveness alone is a lost cause, as we all know that Melee's skill cap is near-infinite.
 

1MachGO

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Was there seriously a debate over who was the worst character in the game....?

What does this accomplish exactly?
 

KevJames

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Was there seriously a debate over who was the worst character in the game....?

What does this accomplish exactly?
So the dying breed of low tier heroes can try to validate that the character debated as "worst in the game" is actually better than the characters above it.

And then the cycle continues.
 

1MachGO

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Nothing is inherently wrong with discussions themselves. I am simply questioning the point of debating who is worse between Kirby/Bowser/Pichu. None of these characters currently impact the meta in any meaningful way and they are all so undeveloped you couldn't possibly implicate them in the same setting as most of the characters listed above them.

In other words, having Kirby, Bowser, and Pichu tied for dead last is about as accurate as ranking them.
 

Modesty

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Slippi.gg
ALIC#155
Nothing is inherently wrong with discussions themselves. I am simply questioning the point of debating who is worse between Kirby/Bowser/Pichu. None of these characters currently impact the meta in any meaningful way and they are all so undeveloped you couldn't possibly implicate them in the same setting as most of the characters listed above them.

In other words, having Kirby, Bowser, and Pichu tied for dead last is about as accurate as ranking them.
I mean the individual number placement for most of the tier list is fairly irreverent. Pretty much everyone agrees Fox is one, and who is s tier a tier etc. That doesn't mean it's not interesting to discuss which low tier champ has the most potential to pull upsets.
 

EddyBearr

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I'd argue that Kirby is more developed than Bowser/Pichu/Ness and maybe even G&W or Mewtwo. Triple R, Hack, and Cereal Rabbit put in more work than people realize.
 
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