2013 Community Tier List

[Big Daddy Josh]

@ 1 1MachGO @ Tagxy

I feel like both of you have made some good arguments, but I think you both seem to be neglecting skill here.

While M2K does well vs a lot of Fox mains, you also have to consider that he is a better player than all of them aside from Mango. M2K does better against Mango than the other top 5, may be because his punish game against Fox is the best(although not completely refined yet). Even with all of this, M2K has lost sets to lower skill level Foxes, (Fiction, SilentWolf, Hax, and now Leffen)

PPMD did just win Apex 2015 using mostly Marth, and too sets off Leffen, and Armada's Fox. They we're by no means easy for him, except the 3-0 against Armada, but the sets could have went either way(WF and GF set 1)

I mean you could argue this stuff for weeks, about which Marth beat which Fox and vice versa, but to me it doesn't seem like it's anything else but 50/50 and just comes down to who is the better player on that day(assuming no major skill-gap between players)

Just for side note:
Top Fox players: Mango, Leffen, Hax, Colbol, SilentWolf, Sfat, Fiction, Lucky, Armada*

Top Marth Players: M2K, PPMD, PewPewU, The Moon.

All players not listed there have a significant drop in skill for each main. While I feel like Marth as a character isnt developed as far as Fox is, in this current time the matchup is 50/50 or some could argue in Fox's favor. As Marths develop their punish and neutral game, I see the matchup being in Marth's favor.

 

[TIA.18]

With luigi's shir-dukin i feel he should be higher like by one spot.

 

[the muted smasher]

I think pichu puff should be called 35-65 if You fully charge side-b it does 39% and kills puff on dreamland 64 at 26% mid stage.

Nah man random non thought out facts aren't reasons to make someone higher

 

[1MachGO]

@ 1 1MachGO @ Tagxy

I feel like both of you have made some good arguments, but I think you both seem to be neglecting skill here.

While M2K does well vs a lot of Fox mains, you also have to consider that he is a better player than all of them aside from Mango. M2K does better against Mango than the other top 5, may be because his punish game against Fox is the best(although not completely refined yet). Even with all of this, M2K has lost sets to lower skill level Foxes, (Fiction, SilentWolf, Hax, and now Leffen)

For starters, I am like 90% sure M2K's set losses to Fiction/SW were when he was going Sheik; not Marth. Fiction got 3-0'd by PPU at MLG. So either Fiction's style just counters M2K's (which is true regardless) or, more likely, M2K went Sheik.

Secondly, M2K is not better than Leffen in terms of skill. Leffen has beaten every other player in the top 5 before finally beating M2K (he was on the same tier skill wise, but has been struggling in the MU). M2K only has a decent record against Mango and Leffen in the top 6. I think this tells us more about the Fox/Marth MU itself than we realize, IMO.

PPMD did just win Apex 2015 using mostly Marth, and too sets off Leffen, and Armada's Fox. They we're by no means easy for him, except the 3-0 against Armada, but the sets could have went either way(WF and GF set 1)

I mean you could argue this stuff for weeks, about which Marth beat which Fox and vice versa, but to me it doesn't seem like it's anything else but 50/50 and just comes down to who is the better player on that day(assuming no major skill-gap between players)

Just for side note:
Top Fox players: Mango, Leffen, Hax, Colbol, SilentWolf, Sfat, Fiction, Lucky, Armada*

Top Marth Players: M2K, PPMD, PewPewU, The Moon.

All players not listed there have a significant drop in skill for each main. While I feel like Marth as a character isnt developed as far as Fox is, in this current time the matchup is 50/50 or some could argue in Fox's favor. As Marths develop their punish and neutral game, I see the matchup being in Marth's favor.

I generally agree with this. Though when compared on equal footing, I would argue that saying Fox > Marth is untrue, whereas, like you said, Marth has the capability of making it in his favor.

@ 1 1MachGO Keep in mind Im only speaking of the current meta, not the different theoretical potential people see that may or may not occur.

if this is the case, it is even more confusing that you ever argued Fox > Marth. As stated earlier, all evidence points to it being even in the BEST case scenario for Fox.

The only player I know who's outright said its Marth's favor is leffen, who's also stated he doesnt know the MU well enough or practice it enough.

I think top player is an important distinction here. Saying Marth wins is not particularly uncommon. The more controversial opinion is saying Fox wins, TBH.

The insight Mango provides is also unclear because he argues that the MU is harder for Fox whilst still saying its even.

I'm VERY curious as to PP's insight. I have the feeling he'll say Marth has a slight edge.

The reason I stated results are more in agreement with my position is because even if the MU is even, it still puts Fox in a notably stronger position for reasons I mentioned earlier and definitely makes him peerless as a secondary. I presented a case for Marth being an even MU vs Fox, and dont think it makes much a difference between even and fox slightly winning. And regardless of how much Armada picked fox for each character in his post apex interview he stated after going peach the first time he realized peach couldnt cut it against marth and was part of his decision in choosing fox. And I do know sheik or other characters are probably worse for Marth, as I said I dont think Fox is the best vs every character.

And I will reiterate, secondaries are situational. The purpose of a secondary is to cover the bad MUs of your main. If Fox isn't the best vs. every character then he wouldn't be peerless as secondary because he doesn't account for every situation.

The difference in our interpretation of top level play of Fox and Marth comes from the fact that Armada and Leffen have both stated theyre not very good at that MU yet. I didnt ignore PP, I feel including these at top level is as useful as including Mango vs a notable marth main. You may feel theres a difference between them, but the bigger point is PP vs Leffen/Armada is not top level Marth-Fox.

Honestly, this is a pretty moot point. Leffen is probably more experienced in top Fox vs. Marth play than PP at this point and he didn't john about the MU at his Apex interview. He beat M2K and barely lost to PP; he isn't bad at the MU.

I also don't recall Armada specifically saying he is bad vs. Marth (he essentially 3-0'd PP's Marth in losers so it'd be a tough sell even he did say it). He DID say he needs to work on his Fox but that is a separate issue entirely.

Regardless, I don't see how the matches between two top 6 players using their mains could be considered anything less than top level.

And yes I know M2K v Mango isnt just FD, I think the bigger point is that M2K gets to avoid stages he doesnt want to go to more often (he essentially never plays on BF) which certainly skews win/loss results.

You're distorting evidence. I could just as easily argue that M2K has often struck or CP'd to FoD when Mango is 7-0 against him there.

 

[Big Daddy Josh]

For starters, I am like 90% sure M2K's set losses to Fiction/SW were when he was going Sheik; not Marth. Fiction got 3-0'd by PPU at MLG. So either Fiction's style just counters M2K's (which is true regardless) or, more likely, M2K went Sheik.

Secondly, M2K is not better than Leffen in terms of skill. Leffen has beaten every other player in the top 5 before finally beating M2K (he was on the same tier skill wise, but has been struggling in the MU). M2K only has a decent record against Mango and Leffen in the top 6. I think this tells us more about the Fox/Marth MU itself than we realize, IMO.

I mostly want to reply to this. I was at Do You Fox Wit It, while I did not watch those sets that he lost, I'm pretty sure M2K went Marth at least 1-2 of the games, it would be highly unlikely that he stayed Sheik for all 3 games. Regardless he told me that the matches we're both last game, last stock, last hit, but that doesnt really matter.

As far as M2K vs Leffen in terms of skill, it's hard to measure imo. Leffen plays Fox who has a + or = Matchups against everyone in the cast, and Leffen has mastered Fox to the point where he even does amazing vs the hardest matchup(Marth). M2K has been a top player longer, but I feel like he was the better player, while he may be dropping off, or just not caring about the game anymore.

It seems that the Fox vs Marth matchup entirely depends on if you're talking about high level, mid level, or low level play. Each of those respected tiers might have different views. For instance, I'd put myself somewhere just below a mid level of skill. I currently struggle with Sheik, and while it's known to be a difficult matchup for Marth, it seems almost impossible at my level like 80/20 in Sheik's favor(not so much anymore as I'm getting better at it lol) but while top players will say its 60/40 in Sheiks favor.

As long as I've been playing, I always felt like Fox wins the matchup, until Marth learns how to deal with him. I've always heard it's 50/50 or 55/45 in Fox's favor, but more recently A LOT of people started claiming to be 55/45 In Maths. I mean does it really matter? not really. Any player can win any matchup if they play good enough. but I think we can all agree that Marth vs Fox is a fun matchup to play/watch and whoever is playing better will win.

 

[Tagxy]

For starters, I am like 90% sure M2K's set losses to Fiction/SW were when he was going Sheik; not Marth. Fiction got 3-0'd by PPU at MLG. So either Fiction's style just counters M2K's (which is true regardless) or, more likely, M2K went Sheik.

I saw it in person. It was marth.

if this is the case, it is even more confusing that you ever argued Fox > Marth. As stated earlier, all evidence points to it being even in the BEST case scenario for Fox.

Its the interpretation of evidence, I disagree with yours mostly because of this:

Honestly, this is a pretty moot point. Leffen is probably more experienced in top Fox vs. Marth play than PP at this point and he didn't john about the MU at his Apex interview. He beat M2K and barely lost to PP; he isn't bad at the MU.

I also don't recall Armada specifically saying he is bad vs. Marth (he essentially 3-0'd PP's Marth in losers so it'd be a tough sell even he did say it). He DID say he needs to work on his Fox but that is a separate issue entirely.

Regardless, I don't see how the matches between two top 6 players using their mains could be considered anything less than top level.

It doesnt matter if PP isnt as experienced, the point is this is not a good measurement of top level play for Marth v Fox. If Armada's Fox isnt pumping on all cylinders or leffen and PP dont have a full grasp of the MU then it doesnt really reflect what we are looking for.

I think top player is an important distinction here. Saying Marth wins is not particularly uncommon. The more controversial opinion is saying Fox wins, TBH.

The insight Mango provides is also unclear because he argues that the MU is harder for Fox whilst still saying its even.

I'm VERY curious as to PP's insight. I have the feeling he'll say Marth has a slight edge.

As I said leffen is the only one who's stated Fox wins. Everyone else seems to think even or Fox favor.

And I will reiterate, secondaries are situational. The purpose of a secondary is to cover the bad MUs of your main. If Fox isn't the best vs. every character then he wouldn't be peerless as secondary because he doesn't account for every situation.

He's peerless because he doesnt have to worry about being counterpicked which is a massive strenght for a secondary. Theres a reason hes such a popular second.

You're distorting evidence. I could just as easily argue that M2K has often struck or CP'd to FoD when Mango is 7-0 against him there.

But that's also been M2K in the driver seat picking that stage, Mango doesnt get to go to BF against M2K's Marth. Thats the strenght of having two character in the first place.

 

[1MachGO]

I mostly want to reply to this. I was at Do You Fox Wit It, while I did not watch those sets that he lost, I'm pretty sure M2K went Marth at least 1-2 of the games, it would be highly unlikely that he stayed Sheik for all 3 games. Regardless he told me that the matches we're both last game, last stock, last hit, but that doesnt really matter.

As far as M2K vs Leffen in terms of skill, it's hard to measure imo. Leffen plays Fox who has a + or = Matchups against everyone in the cast, and Leffen has mastered Fox to the point where he even does amazing vs the hardest matchup(Marth). M2K has been a top player longer, but I feel like he was the better player, while he may be dropping off, or just not caring about the game anymore.

Its really not that hard to gauge.

For starters, M2K almost exclusively plays positive MUs (Fox vs. Hbox, any of his chars vs. Armada, Marth vs. Fox, Sheik vs. PP's Marth, etc.) and still has a pretty bad record against most of these players. Leffen, on the other hand, was able to beat both Armada and Mango at Beast V with PAL Fox. While Mango did play kind of like crap, Leffen still won and anyone who has been following the scene knows M2K's chances for winning that same tournament had he been in Leffen's shoes would have been much lower (he probably would have gotten second though).

Combined with the fact that Leffen's placings in the past three tournaments have all been top 3 or higher (and most recently, higher than M2K's), I don't understand how you could possibly conclude M2K > Leffen. I'm sorry, but they are definitely on the same level of skill.

It seems that the Fox vs Marth matchup entirely depends on if you're talking about high level, mid level, or low level play. Each of those respected tiers might have different views. For instance, I'd put myself somewhere just below a mid level of skill. I currently struggle with Sheik, and while it's known to be a difficult matchup for Marth, it seems almost impossible at my level like 80/20 in Sheik's favor(not so much anymore as I'm getting better at it lol) but while top players will say its 60/40 in Sheiks favor.

As long as I've been playing, I always felt like Fox wins the matchup, until Marth learns how to deal with him. I've always heard it's 50/50 or 55/45 in Fox's favor, but more recently A LOT of people started claiming to be 55/45 In Maths. I mean does it really matter? not really. Any player can win any matchup if they play good enough. but I think we can all agree that Marth vs Fox is a fun matchup to play/watch and whoever is playing better will win.

MUs do vary at different levels of play, but I would say that Fox/Marth has been exclusively considered "even" since I started playing this game (even the old as **** mu ratio on ssbwiki lists the MU as even). Its been identified as one of the most classic MUs in the game and if it was anything less than even all those years, I don't think it would have been as fun to watch.

Nowadays, I think the evidence is slowly pointing towards a future where its going to be in Marth's favor (much like how Marth > Puff has been true in theory for almost two years but people ignored the evidence until it wakes them in the face). If you get grabs at the rate PP does and consistently zero to death Fox (which is probably way more formulaic than we would like to think), I don't see what tools Fox could utilize to counteract that; especially as SDI begins to improve and gimp Fox's already nickel-and-dimey punish game.

I saw it in person. It was marth.

I will admit I stand corrected, but out of curiosity, which sets?

Its the interpretation of evidence, I disagree with yours mostly because of this:

It doesnt matter if PP isnt as experienced, the point is this is not a good measurement of top level play for Marth v Fox. If Armada's Fox isnt pumping on all cylinders or leffen and PP dont have a full grasp of the MU then it doesnt really reflect what we are looking for.

Tagxy, this is absurd lol. PP is a top Marth. Leffen/Armada are top foxes. They all played well that day. Just because they both have room to grow doesn't make it anything short of top level play.

To elaborate, PP's Marth does things in the MU that M2K should do and vice versa. Just because M2K's neutral game consists of 2010 RPS strategy doesn't mean it shouldn't qualify as top level.

By your logic, top level play isn't a reliable source to take data from.

As I said leffen is the only one who's stated Fox wins. Everyone else seems to think even or Fox favor.

Mango has more definitively stated that Marth has the edge because Fox has to approach, but I can't remember if he said this during his stream or while commentating a match. The quote I did find he says it was even but its harder to keep it even as Fox. This implies that Fox is at a slight disadvantage, imo.

Though without PP's opinion, I would say that the top 6 are very divided on the subject (Hbox being excluded of course). If PP says its Marth's favor then it tips the scale towards advantage Marth.

He's peerless because he doesnt have to worry about being counterpicked which is a massive strenght for a secondary. Theres a reason hes such a popular second.

Fox can easily be counterpicked by Marth... uncommon MUs also hurt Fox.

I will reiterate one more time: secondaries are situational.

But that's also been M2K in the driver seat picking that stage, Mango doesnt get to go to BF against M2K's Marth. Thats the strenght of having two character in the first place.

Honestly, them not playing on battlefield is probably more coincidental than anything else. Its actually a fantastic Marth stage because Fox's recovery options below the ledge are extremely limited (plus the platforms can be covered very easily with uair/tipper fsmash). No idea why they haven't played on it.

 

[Tagxy]

I saw fiction at DYFWI, I think his other winning set at SSS was streamed.

I feel like you're stretching mangos words and should just take him at his word. Not that interpreting is bad for fun, if I were to do Id say a MU can be hard but still even if means that you can't let your skill drop.

Secondaries are situational with depending on how many bad MUs they have. Marth having an advantage is far from definitive, but since we can't seem to agree better to just drop the point.

And the problem with leffen and armada is they don't demonstrate top level fox vs marth in the current meta game. This isnt at all partially theoretical since it already occurs in footage courtesy of mango. I honestly think its odd you seem to think it is, but if youre convinced Im not sure theres much to be said that I havent already.

 

[Earthboundy]

I think it's time to talk about Yoshi and Captain Falcon.

Maybe it's because we haven't seen a good Falcon in a while, but I would move him down to the B tier. He has no good spacing techniques and projectiles. Plus his match up with the space animals is abysmal. Again, this may be because we haven't seen an insanely good Falcon in a while.

I really don't think I need to say why Yoshi should be in the bottom A tier. One word: aMSa.

 

[the muted smasher]

I disagree with everything You said. Seeing how falcon has one of the best dd, upairs for eating raw space fast and his general solid range even if he tends to get beaten out a lot the threat of the range is enough sometimes.

What match-up is yoshi good at that matters besides ics? Amsa is amazing but it's a gimmick as far as there hasn't been enough time to counter play it and when it happens it'll likly be something like asma vs armada. Where asma couldn't do anything but edge camp honestly. And there is no break out yoshi meta at mid level play so we can't even balance the extremes.

 

[1MachGO]

And the problem with leffen and armada is they don't demonstrate top level fox vs marth in the current meta game. This isnt at all partially theoretical since it already occurs in footage courtesy of mango. I honestly think its odd you seem to think it is, but if youre convinced Im not sure theres much to be said that I havent already.

Tagxy, the only thing that is odd here is trying to argue that a Fox who beat M2K and took PP to game 5 last stock and a Fox who took a set off PP aren't capable of demonstrating top Marth vs. Fox meta game.

Mango's supposedly "current" demonstration of the Marth meta is against one player. What kind of performance would he have against PP's Marth? The only reference we have is mango getting solidly 3-stocked.

Again, much like how PP demonstrates optimizations and sub optimizations in contrast with M2K, the same can be said about Armada, Leffen, and Mango's Foxes. You have to acknowledge multiple data points here. I could just as easily argue that Leffen has far more working knowledge than Mango when it comes to the Peach/Armada MU, but that doesn't discount Mango and Armada's matches as being below top level. Likewise, I could argue that Mango has the highest understanding of the Puff/Hbox MU, but that shouldn't discount Armada's performances vs. Hbox.

If your view on top level Marth/Fox play was this narrow, then you were entire argument of Fox > Marth was contradictory since your exclusive data point only suggests its even.

 

[Tagxy]

Not entirely, because outside top level Marth's get bopped, which is why I said even or worse. Even then we've seen M2K drop sets to non-top level foxes. I actually agree with everything you said about leffen being a better example of top level fox/peach and mango being a better example of fox/puff. That may be the focal premise that we're just going to disagree on.

 

[Bones0]

Not entirely, because outside top level Marth's get bopped, which is why I said even or worse. Even then we've seen M2K drop sets to non-top level foxes. I actually agree with everything you said about leffen being a better example of top level fox/peach and mango being a better example of fox/puff. That may be the focal premise that we're just going to disagree on.

I'm not even reading this discussion, but saying someone outside top level gets bopped is irrelevant because everyone outside top level gets bopped by people who ARE top level. Hence the gap being pointed out in the first place...

 

[Tagxy]

The discussion started to fall into the semantics on the meaning of top level and what is or isnt relevant, I was covering all scenarios.

 

[1MachGO]

Not entirely, because outside top level Marth's get bopped, which is why I said even or worse. Even then we've seen M2K drop sets to non-top level foxes. I actually agree with everything you said about leffen being a better example of top level fox/peach and mango being a better example of fox/puff. That may be the focal premise that we're just going to disagree on.

Lol, that isn't true either because PPU/The Moon either solidly beat or go even with any Fox at their skill level. Of course, trying to rank the skill of any player outside top 6-10 becomes dubious because the consistency of anyone below that level is incredibly volatile. Again, this is why this level of play shouldn't be considered significant evidence for the MU because anyone in "high level" could be playing better at any given day.

Furthermore, it just outlines more contradictions in your overarching argument. According to you, M2K vs. Mango is the only demonstration of the "current" meta game. This means that anything that doesn't include either of those players shouldn't be considered. Fiction and M2K doen't count. Again, you never should have argued for the possibility of it being in Fox's favor. smh.

Also, did some research on those sets. M2K lost to Fiction at SSS going Sheik games 1 and 3 (he three stocked him with Marth game 2). His losses vs. SW and Fiction also just seem to be M2K playing terribly: https://twitter.com/MVG_Mew2King/status/534186846138687489 and https://twitter.com/MVG_Mew2King/status/534208054905278464

And if you seriously believe that Mango doesn't do things in the Fox/Peach MU that Leffen doesn't or that Leffen/Armada/M2K don't do things in Puff MU that Mango doesn't, you need to reconsider how you assess top level play. I believe a key factor that you are missing here is that game isn't "robotic". Even if you play flow-chart esque like Armada/Hax, that is still a "style" of play. At top level, they don't just bring out tactics which exploit their opponent character's weakness, they exploit their actual opponent's thought process and try to use their own tactics against them. Leffen plays the Peach MU more "effectively" than Mango not because he has more working knowledge vs. Peach, but because he has more knowledge vs. Armada. This is ultimately why you cannot accept M2K vs. Mango as the be-all-end-all data point for the Fox/Marth MU because other players express themselves through different styles and strategies. Armada/Leffen/PPMD all have something they bring to the table in the MU.

 

[Tagxy]

You were making an argument on results not based on analysis of the sets. If were going to analyze sets Id say PP, Leffen, and Armada are all a bit green when it comes to the Fox/Marth MU, comments they themselves have made in regards to their character choice.

Lol, that isn't true either because PPU/The Moon either solidly beat or go even with any Fox at their skill level.

I live in Cali dude, PPU is awesome but he hasnt had that kind of success. Even recently, at the last big Cali event DYFWI he lost to Lucky and SFAT. I kind of doubt the moon has the consistent success you claim either, honestly Im not familiar with Atlantic North foxes near top level besides hax or if they even exist.

Also Im not arguing the MU was straight up fox favor. Im arguing even at best or fox favor. If we look at results narrowly you can at best call it even, if you expand results to include other notable fox's and marths Fox has an edge.

 

[NinthWonder]

I don't think Yoshi should leap up, though he does earn a spot. Shroomed sent Dr. Mario up the tier list with his success alone, so I think aMSa's accomplishments, though possibly a gimmick if the meta evolves to combat him (ala Armada's Peach), are noteworthy.

I'd say maybe move Mario up above Doc with A Rookie's success (top 64 with Mario is not bad at all) and because the Doc meta has become pretty stagnant. However I wouldn't move him far up (and most likely not move him at all) since Rookie, like aMSa, is still just one guy. Green Ranger's DK placed very well for a DK, but I don't think he's going anywhere either.

I wouldn't immediately Ganon because Kage wasn't at Apex, and I feel that Kage has the fundamental abilities to place high with Ganon more so than Bizz.

Luigi making a rise should be a no-brainer with people like Blea Gelo, Eddie Mexico, ROFL, Vist, Abate, etc. making impacts at local and national levels. They've proven that Luigi's technical requirements can be met and used effectively. With Luigi players becoming more common, I see them as less of a gimmick. National winning capabilities? Not likely, but Luigi's have won tournaments before, and they seem to continuously evolve.

Falcon did look shaky. Wizzrobe is the younger player so I'd say he gets the benefit of the doubt for still evolving, but S2J being the premier Falcon and only getting 17 (I say "only" in the sense of top 8 national-winning capabilities: 17th is still an accomplishment) doesn't bode well for CF's tier placement.

I'm not the most knowledgeable with this game, so don't be overly harsh if my predictions are ill-placed.

 

[TheFadedWarrior]

Someone tell me why Falco isn't 1st on the tier list.

Is Fox's waveshine really that good? I honestly don't see it used too much anymore.

 

[the muted smasher]

Fox fundmental ly breaks the game by always having the better movement option paired with great hitboxes, solid grab and he can shine any spacing error he makes vs shield/cc. Then he forces You to approach with lasers. You likly aren't good at Your oos game vs falco yet.

Falcon fell out of the meta honestly, but he'll be back when we are filled with ics, luigi,marth and samus players.

I don't understand luigi maybe just lack of experience, or maybe just mine is better than most I've fought and I expect something a little more thought out than random wavesmashes and sh dairs in my face. Dumb mu for ics de-synce walls can't work and there isn't really room for grabs or grab set-up cause he ccs everything.

 

[Bones0]

Someone tell me why Falco isn't 1st on the tier list.

Is Fox's waveshine really that good? I honestly don't see it used too much anymore.

He's really slow horizontally, has by far the worst grab game out of the top 10, and is constantly at risk of getting death comboed or gimped. These extreme weaknesses are balanced out by his extremely potent strengths: amazing vertical mobility, deadly combos on all non-floaties (with decent damage strings on Peach, Puff, Samus), the best spike in the game (can net early KOs), and good hitboxes on his key moves in neutral (laser, bair, utilt).

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Falco has a bad throw game. His grab game is pretty amazing actually.

I wish more people would make this distinction

 

[1MachGO]

You were making an argument on results not based on analysis of the sets. If were going to analyze sets Id say PP, Leffen, and Armada are all a bit green when it comes to the Fox/Marth MU, comments they themselves have made in regards to their character choice.

Results are an important factor in analysis.

btw, some interesting statements in PP's AMA. He said that Armada's Fox was better than Mango's at the Fox/Marth MU and that Fox/Marth is "super even". M2K also insinuated that PP was better than him vs. Fox. So... PP vs. Armada top level yet?

I live in Cali dude, PPU is awesome but he hasnt had that kind of success. Even recently, at the last big Cali event DYFWI he lost to Lucky and SFAT. I kind of doubt the moon has the consistent success you claim either, honestly Im not familiar with Atlantic North foxes near top level besides hax or if they even exist.

Yet just a month ago PPU 3-0'd SFAT? And HMW is always on the mic about PPU's positive record vs. SFAT?

PPU also beat SW on day 1 at DYFWI and barely lost to Lucky and SFAT. Hehas beaten Lucky in a quick 2-0 at TNE.

Again, that level of play can be somewhat inconsistent, but PPU performs well vs. Foxes that are in his tier when its all said and done.

As for the Moon, he usually beats DJ Nintendo and Slox but does about as well anyone his current skill level can do vs. Hax. His recent success at Apex seems to indicate he has leveled up though.

Also Im not arguing the MU was straight up fox favor. Im arguing even at best or fox favor. If we look at results narrowly you can at best call it even, if you expand results to include other notable fox's and marths Fox has an edge.

But that isn't true at all. If you look at the results with any scope, its even. If you look at more important evidence (i.e. top level play), its likely even with room for the idea that it slightly favors Marth

 

[Bones0]

Falco has a bad throw game. His grab game is pretty amazing actually.

I wish more people would make this distinction

It's a meaningless distinction, really. Yeah, Falco can grab all the time if he wants, but that's because people don't build their gameplay around avoiding Falco's grabs because of how bad his throws are. I don't think he'd have a terrible grab game if he had better followups since laser is still really good at getting people to shield, but I definitely think people could avoid grabs better than they currently do. Just based off of teams experience with a Puff where grab-rest is amazing, people tend to do a lot more jumping and rolling away vs. Falco than they would in singles because they know they can't afford to get grabbed.

 

[Tagxy]

Top level results indicate even at best or a tilt towards fox, but we've already established you have a different perspective of top level Marth/Fox so this is turning redundant. Im honestly extremely surprised personally anyone would believe evidence indicates the MU favors Marth, but I think Ive said as much as I can about it several posts ago and perspectives at this point arent going to change.

Results are an important factor in analysis.

btw, some interesting statements in PP's AMA. He said that Armada's Fox was better than Mango's at the Fox/Marth MU and that Fox/Marth is "super even". M2K also insinuated that PP was better than him vs. Fox. So... PP vs. Armada top level yet?

I've actually seen M2K directly state otherwise after Apex, that PP isnt as good vs Fox as him. I just looked up the quote you mentioned from PP and he didnt seem to indicate Mango wasnt better with any certainty.

SFAT is one player, I think youll find that results generally favor Fox overall out here (and SoCal in general).

 

[the muted smasher]

Honestly I think match-ups can Also be thought of in terms of 2 ratio balanced.

Who has the favor in the neutral game and who has it in the punishment. Maybe it's over simplified because a key edge of some characters are to drag the game out to better adapt like samus and that's more of a player trait. But maybe we say fox should get 3 hits for every 1 marth gets and has an edge in the neutral but then we will look at the worth of the hits and it's easier to balance some of those match-ups. Or at least an objective view of them

 

[1MachGO]

Top level results indicate even at best or a tilt towards fox, but we've already established you have a different perspective of top level Marth/Fox so this is turning redundant. Im honestly extremely surprised personally anyone would believe evidence indicates the MU favors Marth, but I think Ive said as much as I can about it several posts ago and perspectives at this point arent going to change.

Smh, its a matter of analyzing the results at top level. The MU is "even" because any slack Fox had in the punish game was picked up in the neutral game. PP is demonstrating that their neutrals can be very close whilst the gap between their punish games can only expand in Marth's favor. We'll probably see consistent DI/SDI on fox's uthrow/uair in a year or so and Fox's punish game will become moderately less effective at higher levels of play. Meanwhile, flowchart zero to deaths go pretty underutilized from Marth players.

The MU will never be unwinnable, but if Marth players put in half the effort their Fox counterparts did then maybe the observation that Marth is a softcounter against Fox would be more readily apparent. I'm sorry, but I don't think PP's Marth beating Mango, Armada, and Leffen, M2K only having a good record vs. Mango and Leffen, and Mango's "joke character Marth" cleanly beating Hax are mistakes.

I've actually seen M2K directly state otherwise after Apex, that PP isnt as good vs Fox as him. I just looked up the quote you mentioned from PP and he didnt seem to indicate Mango wasnt better with any certainty.

No, Tagxy, while he is giving them the respect they deserve as top level players who can improve in short periods of time, his opinion at that time was rather definitive:

"uhhhh it's better at different stuff. I think Mango's is better vs Falco and armada is better vs marth, but i think all of this can change next time i play both of them. it's really hard to say since they're both good and improving a lot."

Source: http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/c...pmd_here_winner_of_apex_and/comapio?context=3

And M2K's quote: "your opinion on vs Fox (I think you could be a lot better at this one but I want to see your input on this mu too since you might think of things I didn't)"

Top post: http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2vznkm/whats_up_guys_eg_ppmd_here_winner_of_apex_and/

Like I said, he insinuated that PP might be better, but you are correct, M2K said he believes he is better.

SFAT is one player, I think youll find that results generally favor Fox overall out here (and SoCal in general).

Considering there are basically no Marths in SoCal who are even at the Moon's skill level, that wouldn't even be a fair comparison.

PPU has a good record vs. SFAT, SW, and Fiction. Lucky (with the benefit of the doubt) is likely to be even. Those are all the west coast Foxes at PPU's skill level.

Anyway, this discussion has more or less run its course. If the stuff I am saying now hasn't gotten through to you at this point we'll have to agree to disagree.

Honestly I think match-ups can Also be thought of in terms of 2 ratio balanced.

Who has the favor in the neutral game and who has it in the punishment. Maybe it's over simplified because a key edge of some characters are to drag the game out to better adapt like samus and that's more of a player trait. But maybe we say fox should get 3 hits for every 1 marth gets and has an edge in the neutral but then we will look at the worth of the hits and it's easier to balance some of those match-ups. Or at least an objective view of them

While I agree that punish game advantage vs. neutral game advantage are key components in matchups, I would say that Fox's neutral > Marth's neutral is starting to become questionable at top level of play. PP has demonstrated that Marth's movement is more than up to the task of competing with Fox's and Marth definitely has more stage presence when it comes to the ground. Fox uses platforms better but Marth's anti-air game can mitigate that a lot. IMO, its gotten rather even.

Even more interesting is the strength of Fox's meaningful hits begins to deteriorate at higher levels of play (SDI and what not) whereas Marth's should only get stronger (optimal edge guarding, combos, etc.). If you think about it, Marth should take a stock whenever he gets a grab on PS, FD, Yoshis, or FoD, but alas, the amount of grinding Marths due with their punish game does not even come close to the level of efficiency top Foxes seek with theirs.

 

[Tagxy]

Smh, its a matter of analyzing the results at top level. The MU is "even" because any slack Fox had in the punish game was picked up in the neutral game. PP is demonstrating that their neutrals can be very close whilst the gap between their punish games can only expand in Marth's favor. We'll probably see consistent DI/SDI on fox's uthrow/uair in a year or so and Fox's punish game will become moderately less effective at higher levels of play. Meanwhile, flowchart zero to deaths go pretty underutilized from Marth players.

The MU will never be unwinnable, but if Marth players put in half the effort their Fox counterparts did then maybe the observation that Marth is a softcounter against Fox would be more readily apparent. I'm sorry, but I don't think PP's Marth beating Mango, Armada, and Leffen, M2K only having a good record vs. Mango and Leffen, and Mango's "joke character Marth" cleanly beating Hax are mistakes.

You're being a bit selective with evidence. Winning matches isnt the same as winning a set when you have a counterpick advantage, particularly true when you dont even win the set, lol.

No, Tagxy, while he is giving them the respect they deserve as top level players who can improve in short periods of time, his opinion at that time was rather definitive:

"uhhhh it's better at different stuff. I think Mango's is better vs Falco and armada is better vs marth, but i think all of this can change next time i play both of them. it's really hard to say since they're both good and improving a lot."

You missed the part in red. Honestly I think he was just being polite to Armada, but besides that there's nothing stated solidly here.

And M2K's quote: "your opinion on vs Fox (I think you could be a lot better at this one but I want to see your input on this mu too since you might think of things I didn't)"

Like I said, he insinuated that PP might be better, but you are correct, M2K said he believes he is better.

This is a misinterpretation youve made. He's saying he thinks PP could do more to improve at the MU, but never the less wants to hear his input. On Facebook M2K was clear about being more solid on the MU.

Considering there are basically no Marths in SoCal who are even at the Moon's skill level, that wouldn't even be a fair comparison.

Again your personal range of whats "good". Ken has beaten several of SoCals top level players but struggles against Fox, less significant but Fiction also uses Marth as a solid secondary but push comes to shove goes to Fox for his wins against spacies.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

It's a meaningless distinction, really. Yeah, Falco can grab all the time if he wants, but that's because people don't build their gameplay around avoiding Falco's grabs because of how bad his throws are. I don't think he'd have a terrible grab game if he had better followups since laser is still really good at getting people to shield, but I definitely think people could avoid grabs better than they currently do. Just based off of teams experience with a Puff where grab-rest is amazing, people tend to do a lot more jumping and rolling away vs. Falco than they would in singles because they know they can't afford to get grabbed.

Its not meaningless for exactly that reason. Now you're talking about how people are avoiding his grab. You're not talking about what he is doing with his throws.

 

[No U]

wow this thread is still going huh

so this is the real deal here

top
1. fox
2. marth
3. jiggs
4. falco
5. peach
6. ics
7. sheik
high
8. pikachu
9. samus
10. yoshi
11. c. falcon
12. luigi
mid
13. doc
14. young link
15. ganon
16. link
17. mario
low
18. g&w
19. dk
20. m2
21. zelda
bottom
22. ness
23. bowser
24. kirby
25. roy
26. pichu

I didn't mean to actually type out anything past 11 but then I did it anyways because I'm here and I'm sleep deprived and this isn't what the topic's actually about anymore anyways so uhhhh yep. there you have it folks, the real truth, finally revealed at last.

 

[the muted smasher]

Go to a few more boogle tournaments man you'll get it right, but fox is right

 

[1MachGO]

You're being a bit selective with evidence. Winning matches isnt the same as winning a set when you have a counterpick advantage, particularly true when you dont even win the set, lol.

Selective? If anything, I am being overly inclusive. You are just being obtuse at this point.

But **** it. Here are the facts:

All top level results:

M2K vs. Mango = Even (lifetime); 13-13 matches (Tafo stats)
Armada vs. PP = Even; 1-1 sets; 3-3 matches;
PP vs. Leffen = PP's favor; 2-1 sets; 8-5 matches;
M2K vs. Leffen = M2K's favor; 4-1 sets (They went 1-1 at Apex so I'm not gonna count that one as a set win for Marth); 12-4 matches;

If we're including Hax:

M2K vs. Hax = M2K's favor; 3-1 sets; 9-6 matches;
Mango vs. Hax = Mango's favor; used Marth to win 2/3rds of the set; 2-0 matches;

If we're including PP vs Mango:

PP vs. Mango = PP's favor; 1 game;

What I take from this:

>Of the gods, M2K only performs decently vs. Leffen and Mango
>The MU is even in the current meta, but there is definitely more credence to Marth > Fox than Fox > Marth

You missed the part in red. Honestly I think he was just being polite to Armada, but besides that there's nothing stated solidly here.

No, finish the sentence. He said its hard to say SINCE they're both good and improving a lot. Like I said, he is giving them the respect they deserve as players who can rapidly improve. That doesn't change his beliefs at the present time.

This is a misinterpretation youve made. He's saying he thinks PP could do more to improve at the MU, but never the less wants to hear his input. On Facebook M2K was clear about being more solid on the MU.

Yeah, I became aware of that last minute lol. I'll concede that M2K says he is better. Doesn't really change my core argument.

Again your personal range of whats "good". Ken has beaten several of SoCals top level players but struggles against Fox, less significant but Fiction also uses Marth as a solid secondary but push comes to shove goes to Fox for his wins against spacies.

Ken is not better than The Moon and IIRC Ken hasn't out-placed The Moon at any major they've both attended. And I don't know if I should even dignify your Fiction example with a response. His Marth isn't on the same level as his Fox; plain and simple.

 

[EddyBearr]

Ken is not better than The Moon and IIRC Ken hasn't out-placed The Moon at any major they've both attended.

I dunno about this. I heard SoCal is pretty good. I heard that even SoCal's #21 could body Manitoba's #1.

 

[Tagxy]

Selective? If anything, I am being overly inclusive. You are just being obtuse at this point.

But **** it. Here are the facts:

The issue of course is that you do not include relevant result related context while Ive included it. The fact that many of those matches include beneficial counterpicking for stages, etc.; and also the MU inexperience of PP/Armada/Leffen which is less numbers related but relevant in discussing which level of play is being discussed.

No, finish the sentence. He said its hard to say SINCE they're both good and improving a lot. Like I said, he is giving them the respect they deserve as players who can rapidly improve. That doesn't change his beliefs at the present time.

Since qualifies the present not the future, which is clear in the context.

Ken is not better than The Moon and IIRC Ken hasn't out-placed The Moon at any major they've both attended. And I don't know if I should even dignify your Fiction example with a response. His Marth isn't on the same level as his Fox; plain and simple.

Fictions Fox is able to beat M2K, clearly his Fox is better but that doesnt diminish his Marth's skill. If its MU relevant and Primary second wins I dont think its out of the question that he'd be more inclined to use it.

 

[1MachGO]

The issue of course is that you do not include relevant result related context while Ive included it. The fact that many of those matches include beneficial counterpicking for stages, etc.; and also the MU inexperience of PP/Armada/Leffen which is less numbers related but relevant in discussing which level of play is being discussed.

But I have elaborated on the context many times, most recently being:

Spoiler

Smh, its a matter of analyzing the results at top level. The MU is "even" because any slack Fox had in the punish game was picked up in the neutral game. PP is demonstrating that their neutrals can be very close whilst the gap between their punish games can only expand in Marth's favor. We'll probably see consistent DI/SDI on fox's uthrow/uair in a year or so and Fox's punish game will become moderately less effective at higher levels of play. Meanwhile, flowchart zero to deaths go pretty underutilized from Marth players.

The MU will never be unwinnable, but if Marth players put in half the effort their Fox counterparts did then maybe the observation that Marth is a softcounter against Fox would be more readily apparent. I'm sorry, but I don't think PP's Marth beating Mango, Armada, and Leffen, M2K only having a good record vs. Mango and Leffen, and Mango's "joke character Marth" cleanly beating Hax are mistakes.

Of course, you ignored this and said I was being selective, I showed you I wasn't being selective and now you are saying I don't mention context. Make up your mind, Tagxy.

Though I believe the main issue now is that you refuse to accept PP/Armada/Leffen are capable of top level Marth vs. Fox play even though recent examples and PP's statement on reddit disprove that.

"Counterpick" stages are part of the game and part of a MU. I don't understand how you don't think this way.

Since qualifies the present not the future, which is clear in the context.

Pretty sure "since" is being used as a conjunction. Its interchangeable with the word "because" in that context. He presently believes Mango is better vs Falco and Armada is better vs Marth but is aware that this could change in the future.

You honestly just seem in denial at this point.

Fictions Fox is able to beat M2K, clearly his Fox is better but that doesnt diminish his Marth's skill. If its MU relevant and Primary second wins I dont think its out of the question that he'd be more inclined to use it.

I can't take this aspect of your argument seriously at all. His Marth isn't close to the level of skill his Fox is and, thus, won't be able to compete with the same opponents his Fox can. The argument that Marth potentially soft counters Fox would only be present at top level meta and beyond. Fox/Marth is even at lower levels and has been for years.

 

[Tagxy]

But I have elaborated on the context many times, most recently being:

Of course, you ignored this and said I was being selective, I showed you I wasn't being selective and now you are saying I don't mention context. Make up your mind, Tagxy.

Thats not context thats analysis. The stages they played on is not open to interpretation and secondaries used during a set is not open to interpretation. I didnt bother with analysis.

Though I believe the main issue now is that you refuse to accept PP/Armada/Leffen are capable of top level Marth vs. Fox play even though recent examples and PP's statement on reddit disprove that.

Pretty sure "since" is being used as a conjunction. Its interchangeable with the word "because" in that context. He presently believes Mango is better vs Falco and Armada is better vs Marth but is aware that this could change in the future.

You honestly just seem in denial at this point.

Its the reverse. Right before 'since' is an implied reference and restatement of the question. If we add full context to the sentence it would read:
""it's really hard to say if the response to your question of whether armada or mango is currently better in the MU's I played them in is correct since they're both good and improving a lot."
I'm not sure why youre so intent on reading through words when the uncertainty seems fairly clear either way.

I can't take this aspect of your argument seriously at all. His Marth isn't close to the level of skill his Fox is and, thus, won't be able to compete with the same opponents his Fox can. The argument that Marth potentially soft counters Fox would only be present at top level meta and beyond. Fox/Marth is even at lower levels and has been for years.

At lower levels its more certain as a counter, obviously fiction doesnt refer to top level marth that wasnt the point of discussion.

 

[1MachGO]

Thats not context thats analysis. The stages they played on is not open to interpretation and secondaries used during a set is not open to interpretation. I didnt bother with analysis.

Looking at context is looking at circumstance. Analysis is a major part of understanding circumstance.

I only counted games that were Marth vs. Fox and only credited sets when the victory was achieved predominantly using those characters (this is why I didn't count Apex 2014 M2K vs. Leffen). MLG was the last time M2K switched around during their set and played Marth on FD and Pokemon; taking 2 games. The rest of their sets were straight up Marth vs. Fox.

PP did take two games in their first grand finals set with Falco but I didn't count those. Armada technically 3-0'd his Marth in set one and PP 3-0'd him back in set two. Beating his Fox on Dreamland twice. Meanwhile, PP strangely never took Armada to FD.

PP dropped a game to Leffen in their first MLG set going Falco. So even though Leffen took that set, they were still 2-2 in games. All their other sets were straight Marth vs. Fox. 3-1 at MLG and 3-2 at Apex. Both victories for PP.

I don't really feel like checking all the M2K vs. Hax sets but again, I only counted the Fox vs. Marth games and set victories.

Mango vs. Hax and PP vs. Mango I made clear weren't full sets.

As for the Tafo stats, I don't know which sets he used but they are deadlocked in matches over a variety of stages which is ample evidence.

Its the reverse. Right before 'since' is an implied reference and restatement of the question. If we add full context to the sentence it would read:
""it's really hard to say if the response to your question of whether armada or mango is currently better in the MU's I played them in is correct since they're both good and improving a lot."
I'm not sure why youre so intent on reading through words when the uncertainty seems fairly clear either way.

He isn't definitive because they can improve in the future.

At the present time he believes Armada is better against Marth and Mango is better against Falco. What part of that do you not understand.

At lower levels its more certain as a counter, obviously fiction doesnt refer to top level marth that wasnt the point of discussion.

The point of discussion is whether or not you can argue Fox beats Marth.

At LOW level play Marth wins on principle since the Fox will be prone to way more tech errors for Marth to capitalize on. Marth will muscle through with a better punish game. The neutral is non existent at that level.

At mid to high level play I would argue that it becomes even if the Marth/Fox are of somewhat equal skill and proficiency in the MU. Foxes will typically win the neutral and Marths will typically make up for it with the stronger punish game. Of course, it gets difficult to analyze this level of play since players can be inconsistent or polarized in their gameplay.

At top level, I would say that its even at a glance and slightly in Marth's favor after closer inspection. At this level of play, Marth can compete with Fox on equal footing in neutral whereas Fox is still at a pretty noticeable disadvantage in the punish game on most stages.

 

[BBOY15]

Can someone explain why Samus isn't on top of the A tier? I'm pretty sure Samus does better against Fox and Falco than Doc and Pikachu do against them. Shouldn't this alone make Samus a lot more competitively viable than Doc and Pikachu? I hear Samus talked about a lot more than all the other A tier characters.

 

[1MachGO]

Can someone explain why Samus isn't on top of the A tier? I'm pretty sure Samus does better against Fox and Falco than Doc and Pikachu do against them. Shouldn't this alone make Samus a lot more competitively viable than Doc and Pikachu? I hear Samus talked about a lot more than all the other A tier characters.

You are bound to hear more talk about Samus because she is more popular than Doc/Pikachu.

As for her being better vs spacies than Doc/Pikachu? Eh, not necessarily. Generally speaking, the viability of mid tiers is thwarted by Sheik/Marth/Peach or a combination of those three. Most mid tiers survive off their decent fox/falco MUs (particularly in the cases of Pika/Doc/Mario/Samus/Luigi). So even if someone were able to prove Samus > Doc/Pikachu vs. spacies, it'd be marginal at best.

With that said, the ranking of viability between mid tiers comes down to their performance vs. the rest of high tier. Samus is probably the second best pick in the game vs. Ice Climbers and she can perform well enough vs. Peach, but Sheik, Marth, Puff, and Falcon all give her a pretty hard time. Mango, for instance, claims that no Samus should be able to beat Sheik at top level when the MU is played correctly, and just recently, Plup had allegedly rage quit against Swedish Delight who camped him out with Sheik. Its an extraordinarily tough MU and I don't think Doc or Pikachu have an equivalent.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Samus does just okay against spacies, its not a counter or anything. Arguably 50:50 at best. But besides them she has an extremely hard time with the top tier floaties namely Sheik, Marth, Peach and Puff.

Still, samus may be arguably better than pikachu or doc. I think the 3 of them are relatively close, and clearly better than mario and ganon. If this list had sub-tiers, I think one would belong there

 

[1MachGO]

Samus does just okay against spacies, its not a counter or anything. Arguably 50:50 at best. But besides them she has an extremely hard time with the top tier floaties namely Sheik, Marth, Peach and Puff.

Still, samus may be arguably better than pikachu or doc. I think the 3 of them are relatively close, and clearly better than mario and ganon. If this list had sub-tiers, I think one would belong there

I could see someone maybeee arguing Samus is better than Doc in the current meta, but I think Pikachu being the best mid tier is all but set in stone at this point. Armada is right about the importance of mobility in this game, and I think Samus is too polarized in this department (among other flaws).