2013 Community Tier List

[FerrishTheFish]

-I think Ganon is always viable if we disregard Fox, Falco, Sheik, and Captain Falcon.
-I think Ganon is viable against Fox, Falco, Sheik, and Captain Falcon as long as both of hte following are fulfilled:
--1: The Ganondorf is good at reading opponents. I don't think average reading ability would cut it, they should be reading 50-50's at like a 60-40 average, they should be good at getting in the opponents' head.
--2: The opponent does not over exploit Ganon's weakness / play extremely lame. I can't see a Ganon being viable, even with a great Ganon, if going against the most heartless of Sheiks.

Dunno why you would cross off Falcon, he definitely belongs on a list of Ganon's hardest MUs. Maybe not as hard as Sheik, but about as hard as the spacies. A super dashdance-y, camp-y, bait-y Falcon is going to get more off of reaction than Ganon will get off of reads. I hypothesize that Campy Falcon vs. Ganon is sixty-five/thirty-five (see? no numerals!).

Compared to Falcon's stage mobility, watching ShenaniGanon is like watching Baywatch: somewhat sexy but still slo-mo.

EDIT: Confession, curiosity got the better of me and OMFG 1MachGO

Hey, if you guys have such a problem with my view on MUs, I would appreciate it if you PM'd me instead of spamming the thread with off topic posts.

Do you not remember how this entire ****fest started? Let me remind you: YOU had a problem with US using numbers! And what did you do? Did you PM us, or did you spam the thread?

You know how dishonest and hypocritical it is to not only frame the conversation so it looks like WE were attacking YOU, but demand that we give you special treatment that you refused to give us? There are no words to express it, so I'll use numbers and symbols instead:

@55#013

 

[EddyBearr]

Dunno why you would cross off Falcon, he definitely belongs on a list of Ganon's hardest MUs. Maybe not as hard as Sheik, but about as hard as the spacies. A super dashdance-y, camp-y, bait-y Falcon is going to get more off of reaction than Ganon will get off of reads. I hypothesize that Campy Falcon vs. Ganon is sixty-five/thirty-five (see? no numerals!).

Compared to Falcon's stage mobility, watching ShenaniGanon is like watching Baywatch: somewhat sexy but still slo-mo.

I think it's a little under Fox (who I think is the easiest of F/F/S for Ganon). I crossed it out because I feel like it's borderline. Ganon has his great edgeguarding against Falcon still, and at least, potential to stuff him in the neutral game. I could see both it being competitive and it being noncompetitive.

 

[Sir Bubbles]

I pretty much agree with everything. To elaborate on my opinions:

-I think Ganon is always viable if we disregard Fox, Falco, Sheik, and Captain Falcon.
-I think Ganon is viable against Fox, Falco, Sheik, and Captain Falcon as long as both of hte following are fulfilled:
--1: The Ganondorf is good at reading opponents. I don't think average reading ability would cut it, they should be reading 50-50's at like a 60-40 average, they should be good at getting in the opponents' head.
--2: The opponent does not over exploit Ganon's weakness / play extremely lame. I can't see a Ganon being viable, even with a great Ganon, if going against the most heartless of Sheiks.

For Young Link, I also have him in Niche tier, but at the very end of it (him #16 compared to Ganon #14). His niche isn't so much "for those who are good at reading," but rather, a niche of matchups. A few months back, I considered that more valuable than Ganon's more even spread and better than Yoshi's hard-to-unlock but definite potential, but now I consider both superior to YL.

I feel like Ganon has one of the hardest MUs against Sheik in all of the mid-tier to the point of a really big skill gap in order to overcome the MU.

If there was a Niche tier (Right below midtier), I'd put:
14. Ganon
15. YLink
16. Yoshi

 

[1MachGO]

EDIT: Confession, curiosity got the better of me and OMFG 1MachGO

Do you not remember how this entire ****fest started? Let me remind you: YOU had a problem with US using numbers! And what did you do? Did you PM us, or did you spam the thread?

You know how dishonest and hypocritical it is to not only frame the conversation so it looks like WE were attacking YOU, but demand that we give you special treatment that you refused to give us? There are no words to express it, so I'll use numbers and symbols instead:

The difference is I am responding directly TO you. Discussion of how MUs should be interpreted is also on topic. Even you said this.

Also keep in mind that YOU engaged me.

What isn't on topic is exchanging sarcastic remarks between other users with no purpose but to mock me.

 

[the muted smasher]

I'd honestly think samus struggles more vs sheik than gannon because most the time when I see gannon vs sheik they don't ch a in throw each other and sheik ccs and that unwrap most of samus game plan where I can see gannon sneaking in with a fair if he waits.

I'm not sure what samus does vs sheik after watching m2k vs duck

 

[Bones0]

The purpose was mainly to mock your opinion, not you as a person. I would have made the same sarcastic post for anyone. But fair enough, I was done with this convo not long after it started a while back. It's not like anyone is going to avoid using mu ratios anyway. lol

 

[1MachGO]

The purpose was mainly to mock your opinion, not you as a person. I would have made the same sarcastic post for anyone. But fair enough, I was done with this convo not long after it started a while back. It's not like anyone is going to avoid using mu ratios anyway. lol

Its not that I was offended (as it would honestly take MORE effort to be offended by a internet-forum argument then to not be) but the issue was that it didn't pertain to discussion of tiers. I appreciate the sentiment though.

As for people not avoiding the use of MUs ratios, that is true. Even if more people agreed with me it wouldn't have changed how commonplace ratios are. Though it was still worth discussing, IMO.

 

[EddyBearr]

I'd honestly think samus struggles more vs sheik than gannon because most the time when I see gannon vs sheik they don't ch a in throw each other and sheik ccs and that unwrap most of samus game plan where I can see gannon sneaking in with a fair if he waits.

I'm not sure what samus does vs sheik after watching m2k vs duck

I would argue that crouch cancelling does way more for Samus than Sheik in the Samus-Sheik matchup. Down-smash knocks down so quickly, while even Sheik's strong hits don't knock crouching Samus down for quite a while.

I feel like Ganon has one of the hardest MUs against Sheik in all of the mid-tier to the point of a really big skill gap in order to overcome the MU.

If there was a Niche tier (Right below midtier), I'd put:
14. Ganon
15. YLink
16. Yoshi

If we consider "mid tier" as my viable & niche tiers Samus, Doc, Luigi -- Pika, Mario, Ganon, Yoshi, YL
Then I rated them for how they do against Sheik:
1. Mario
2. Dr. Mario
3. Ganondorf
4. Samus
5. Luigi
6. Pikachu
7. Yoshi
8. Young Link

To me, Viable Tier and Niche tier are, combined, the upper and lower mid tiers.

 

[Bismo Funyuns]

Best tournament Victories
-beat Ken and Isai in poker at OC2

Some credential there

 

[EddyBearr]

Some credential there

Anything you say is the truth until Cartoons Plural or Harvard University shows up.

What say you of the tier list, my idol?

 

[StatusC]

Samus-Sheik isn't that bad IMO. The edgegaurd-game vs sheik is better than a lot of characters because of samus's great wavedash and d-smash which sends sheik back offstage. Samus can missile spam until the sheik gets close to the edge and then samus has the ability to grab the ledge very quickly. If sheik vanishes onto the stage, samus can quickly wavedash from the ledge and d-smash. Samus can also wavedash onto the stage and bair sheik if she decides to vanish onto the nearby platform.

I play extremely defensively vs sheik in the neutral game with f-tilts, jabs, missiles, and the occasional up-b out of shield. It works fairly well, and when I get a d-tilt or d-smash that shifts the momentum in my favor, I go ham with everything in my arsenal. The best thing that sheik's crouch can do in this MU is duck missiles; sheik's cc can get punished fairly hard with d-tilt and d-smash.

This MU is not in samus's favor mainly because sheik makes samus's bomb-jump look like doc's cape recovery and can edgegaurd all of samus's grapple and up-b options sufficiently. Sheik hurts charge shot if they know one certain secret (not even really a secret). Sheik's d-throw basically guarantees a follow-up. Sheik's tilts combo easily. (those last two apply for basically every other character).

 

[EddyBearr]

Samus-Sheik isn't that bad IMO. The edgegaurd-game vs sheik is better than a lot of characters because of samus's great wavedash and d-smash which sends sheik back offstage. Samus can missile spam until the sheik gets close to the edge and then samus has the ability to grab the ledge very quickly. If sheik vanishes onto the stage, samus can quickly wavedash from the ledge and d-smash. Samus can also wavedash onto the stage and bair sheik if she decides to vanish onto the nearby platform.

I play extremely defensively vs sheik in the neutral game with f-tilts, jabs, missiles, and the occasional up-b out of shield. It works fairly well, and when I get a d-tilt or d-smash that shifts the momentum in my favor, I go ham with everything in my arsenal. The best thing that sheik's crouch can do in this MU is duck missiles; sheik's cc can get punished fairly hard with d-tilt and d-smash.

This MU is not in samus's favor mainly because sheik makes samus's bomb-jump look like doc's cape recovery and can edgegaurd all of samus's grapple and up-b options sufficiently. Sheik hurts charge shot if they know one certain secret (not even really a secret). Sheik's d-throw basically guarantees a follow-up. Sheik's tilts combo easily. (those last two apply for basically every other character).

Dair into reverse nair is better than D-Smash and doesn't even require ledgedash. Sheik can DI a D-Smash to go mostly upwards which makes recovery for Sheik quite easy after the D-Smash
Sheik's needles destroy charge shot and missiles.

65-35 Sheik favor, but not any worse.

 

[StatusC]

Dair into reverse nair is better than D-Smash and doesn't even require ledgedash. Sheik can DI a D-Smash to go mostly upwards which makes recovery for Sheik quite easy after the D-Smash
Sheik's needles destroy charge shot and missiles.

65-35 Sheik favor, but not any worse.

I was referring to when sheik goes deep onto the stage. Any character can punish a vanish right next to the ledge. Plus dair to reverse nair isn't even that feasible at higher percents. Also, dair to sweetspotted bair would be better anyway because of its much greater knockback.

 

[Sempai]

Dair into reverse nair is better than D-Smash and doesn't even require ledgedash. Sheik can DI a D-Smash to go mostly upwards which makes recovery for Sheik quite easy after the D-Smash
Sheik's needles destroy charge shot and missiles.

65-35 Sheik favor, but not any worse.

Reverse nair is stronger than sweet-spotted Bair?

 

[1MachGO]

Looks like Armada is gonna drop Peach; probably only gonna use her for the ICs MU or weird mid tiers.

Communtiy will be placing Peach lower than ICs and/or Falcon's in 6-10 months.

 

[Sempai]

Looks like Armada is gonna drop Peach; probably only gonna use her for the ICs MU or weird mid tiers.

Communtiy will be placing Peach lower than ICs and/or Falcon's in 6-10 months.

We dont know anything for a fact yet tho. But we rlly need to get onto making a new tier list.

 

[PJB]

I think amsa sort of proved that yoshi is in the pika doc samus level of character rather than the ganon/mario level

 

[AJawesome07]

When can we expect a new tier list? I think we can expect some pretty big changes in the next list.

 

[1MachGO]

We dont know anything for a fact yet tho. But we rlly need to get onto making a new tier list.

Well I can tell ya right now that Doc will probably get ranked under Luigi/Samus as a result of Shroomed not using him. No counter examples basically amounts to x over y in this community.

Armada quitting Peach, Mango [probably] getting success with Falcon, and S2J/Wizzy probably being better than next best Peach main (Kalamazhu or MacD?) is a recipe that only cooks Falcon > Peach by the end of 2015.

Marth having the winning MU vs. Puff just finally became mainstream even though its been nothing but evident for a year and a half.

Bandwagons are real.

So while I agree a new tier list should be made, the question of who should make it and what format it should be made in still exists.

 

[Sir Bubbles]

I feel like bad for myself for picking Doc as my main, a character that everyone thought as viable a year ago is now suddenly unviable in the current metagame.

Well, time to prove everyone wrong.

 

[ItsChon]

Damn, I need to catch up on Apex.

 

[AJawesome07]

I feel like bad for myself for picking Doc as my main, a character that everyone thought as viable a year ago is now suddenly unviable in the current metagame.

Well, time to prove everyone wrong.

Dude, don't feel bad. I play Falcon, but Doc is my favorite secondary.

I think Doc is in a strange position if/when a new tier list gets made. He's not a bad character, it's just that he gets almost no exposure, so we don't have any evidence to argue for his placement in the tiers.

 

[Tagxy]

S - Godly
Fox

A - Viable (can win a major)
Falco
Marth

B - Popular
Jigglypuff
Sheik
Peach
Ice Climbers
Falcon

C - Specialists
Yoshi
Samus
Pikachu

F - Everyone Else

The specialists you could maybe toss up higher for having decent MU's on spacies at their peak level, but if youre not playing at the peak level they may as well be F tier. Ice Climbers and Marth could be underrated. And yeah I know you can probably group the other characters but between the low data and not being relevant at all at top level I just left it off.

 

[EddyBearr]

[collapse="Top 48 at Apex by character: (top 48/8/4/2/1)"](Dual-mains at 0.5 each just to be simple)
1. Fox: 15/2/2/0.5/0
2. Falco: 4/1/1/0.5/0.5
3. Marth: 5.5/0.5/0.5/0.5/0.5
4. Sheik: 5.5./2/0/0/0
5. Peach: 3.5/0.5/0.5/0.5/0
6. IC's: 4/0/0/0/0
7. Jiggs: 1/1/0/0/0
7. Yoshi 1/1/0/0/0
9. Falcon: 2.5/0/0/0/0
10. Samus: 2/0/0/0/0
10. Luigi: 2/0/0/0/0
12. Pikachu: 1/0/0/0/0[/collapse]

I don't quite think we're at 20XX, and I think the top 8 showed it. The Apex top 4 is quite convincing, but it's just one event to me at the moment. Mango's wins beforehand could be, arguably, just Mango being better than others as opposed to characters, but now Mango's dominance is clearly challenged. I still think Sheik/Peach can win a major (unsure of Jigglypuff), but I think it's quite likely the meta eventually will make it so they can't.
[collapse="What I've been thinking of the tier list lately"]Top Tier: They define the meta and should win all top events
1. Fox (no comment)
2. Falco (I think Falco is the only character that isn't held by anything without being Fox)

High Tier: These can win a major/national with dedication from a top level player, but do not define the meta.
3. Marth (Actually has 1 bad matchup, but is the best high tier and most likely to win a major/national outside Fox/Falco)
4. Sheik (A few matchup troubles but has the ability to win anything)
5. Peach (even without Armada, Peach stands above anyone below her in results and has consistently done so for a while)
6. Jigglypuff (not sure if Fox is too much for Jiggs to compete for 1st)

Borderline Tier: These characters can top 8 a major/national and compete with top/high tier, but something holds them back.
6. Jigglypuff (not sure if Fox is too much for Jiggs to compete for 1st)
7. Ice Climbers (They can compete with any character in the game except Peach.)
8. Captain Falcon (Stands significantly above those below him, but can't compete with too many ascending characters.)

Viable Tier: These characters can consistently top 32 a major/national, but highly unlikely to top 8
9. Samus (Proven. Plup, HugS, Duck,)
10. Dr. Mario (I still think Doc is good, but no one good plays doc. Chain-grabs & gimps with a good neutral game)
11. Luigi (Proven. Abate, Eddy Mexico, Blea Gelo)

Niche Tier: These characters can sometimes see top-level competitive use under specific circumstances.
12. Mario (His frame data & matchups make it hard to place him far below Doc, but he lacks results.)
13. Pikachu (Axe has been losing, even against Fox, when he shouldn't. Pikachu isn't good & is holding him back.)
14. Yoshi (Only good if the user is exceedingly technical/dedicated/fast, but neutral game is largely smoke & mirrors)
15. Ganondorf (only decent if you can read your opponent well, but very easy to exploit)
16. Young Link (Should be Low Tier but works as an okay secondary on some high tiers)

Low Tier: These characters stand above the bottom tiers, but they are not fit for non-local competitive play.
17. Link (Lacks the high tier "counterpick" ability of Young Link)
18. Zelda (I think having 3 good options is enough)
19. Donkey Kong (up-air tricks alongside a not-bottom grab game is all he needs)

Bottom Tier: These characters should not be fit for even local competitive play (something is wrong if they are winning).
20. Mewtwo (awful matchup spread, but movement & teleport leaves plenty of room for mental game)
21. Mr. Game & Watch (Just a good bottom tier)
22. Roy (awful matchup spread, but has a big disjointed sword)
23. Kirby (good matchups for a bottom tier & has an okay neutral/gameplan, but lacks an edge like teleport or a sword)
24. Ness (Has some interesting movement, moves, & combos; but has very unreliable, and even unsafe, set-ups)
25. Pichu (Entire gameplan disappears when remotely disjointed hitboxes appear, movement/speed is smoke & mirrors)
26. Bowser (Doesn't have a gameplan or a neutral game. Should be in a tier of awful by himself)[/collapse]

 

[1MachGO]

S - Godly
Fox

A - Viable (can win a major)
Falco
Marth

B - Popular
Jigglypuff
Sheik
Peach
Ice Climbers
Falcon

C - Specialists
Yoshi
Samus
Pikachu

F - Everyone Else

The specialists you could maybe toss up higher for having decent MU's on spacies at their peak level, but if youre not playing at the peak level they may as well be F tier. Ice Climbers and Marth could be underrated. And yeah I know you can probably group the other characters but between the low data and not being relevant at all at top level I just left it off.

My biggest gripe with this tier list is putting Fox in his own tier because it implies he has somehow achieved MK status; short of DYFWI (which was an anomaly), none of the events in the past year are evident of Fox being on his own level.

But yeah, completely agree with omitting characters we have low data on and acknowledging that Yoshi/Pikachu have outlier status. Samus, however, is definitely popular (Duck and Hugs both made top 48 at Apex and Plup usually makes top 16 at majors). Her general userbase is likely higher than ICs and her high level representation is greater than Puff's.

I'd be more like:

Based on the current meta

Can win a national with little to no CPing (unordered):
Fox
Falco
Marth

Can get top 5 at a national with little to no CPing(unordered):
Peach
Puff
Sheik

Can get top 8 at a national with little to no CPing:
ICs

Can get top 16 at a national with little to no CPing:
Falcon
Samus

Limited data; but there is evidence these characters can get get top 16 or higher at a national:
Pikachu
Yoshi

Limited data; but there is evidence these characters can get top 32 or higher at a national:
Doc
Luigi

Insufficient data:
Everyone else

 

[Tagxy]

The reason Fox isnt like MK is because he's harder to succeed with at non-top level (which isnt something to undervalue), at top level he might be a bit stronger. Fox Falco and Marth can win majors, I put Fox in his own tier because he doesnt have to deal with the same BS Marth and Falco do. Marth and falco have to deal with characters like Sheik, ICs, and Falcon or other MUs being even or disadvantaged against them while Fox at worst has two even MUs in A/S and wins everything else. I have a feeling most wouldnt disagree with that statement, but I also think that sets him a tier above the rest.

I think if you take one step below top level, suddenly the full B tier I listed all become viable. But none of these characters will win a major with most Gods present unless they attach an A or S tier character as well.

Also while its an unlikely chance, Id actually bet on the C-tier specialists against several gods before the B-tiers (not peach right now but I can see it getting there). These characters struggle against the general usable cast, but have better aggregate MU's at top level against S/A then the B-tiers. Theyre also very difficult to use and hard to be consistent with which is why theyre only relevant at top level, in that sense theyre a bit foxesque but with less reward then fox. That makes their placement really weird. Yeah I know Samus is popular too but in some sense I was trying to imply he works on a different level for top level play.

Doc and Luigi probably are after the rest of these groups, but these characters not only seem to stand little to no chance against the smash gods but they rarely even make it far enough to try. Yoshi, Pikachu, and Samus I can see occasionally taking sets from melees god players, can't see that happening with Doc and Luigi.

Also M2K today posted his list for top 7, while just another opinion it did match my thoughts in terms of order.

Top 2: spacies
Next 2: marth puff
Next 3: sheik / peach / ics

 

[Sir Bubbles]

2015 tier list changes:

Sheik and Doc instantly become less viable then they were because Hax and M2K said so.

Pikachu now becomes #9 on everyone's list because Axe was pretty good with him for a year until everyone started beating him. Pikachu will then become unviable in the next tier list due to Axe inevitably dropping him for Falco by the end of this year.

Peach can no longer win a national because Armada dropped her for Fox.

Luigi spikes on everyone's list because Eddy and Abate are doing alright with him.

 

[EddyBearr]

2015 tier list changes:

Sheik and Doc instantly become less viable then they were because Hax and M2K said so.

Pikachu now becomes #9 on everyone's list because Axe was pretty good with him for a year until everyone started beating him. Pikachu will then become unviable in the next tier list due to Axe inevitably dropping him for Falco by the end of this year.

Peach can no longer win a national because Armada dropped her for Fox.

Luigi spikes on everyone's list because Eddy and Abate are doing alright with him.

Pikachu is awful, but other than that, it just means the meta has been evolving.

 

[1MachGO]

The reason Fox isnt like MK is because he's harder to succeed with at non-top level (which isnt something to undervalue), at top level he might be a bit stronger. Fox Falco and Marth can win majors, I put Fox in his own tier because he doesnt have to deal with the same BS Marth and Falco do. Marth and falco have to deal with characters like Sheik, ICs, and Falcon or other MUs being even or disadvantaged against them while Fox at worst has two even MUs in A/S and wins everything else. I have a feeling most wouldnt disagree with that statement, but I also think that sets him a tier above the rest.

Sheik and Falcon only apply to Marth (Falco is better than Fox in both these MUs). As for ICs, Falco definitely wins this MU as well (watch Axe vs. Wobbles).

Falco performs better than Fox vs. every mid tier in the game with the possible exception of Samus. Though its likely neither of them lose this MU.

Fox DEFINITELY loses to Marth at top level and the gap is only going to grow as players improve. Marth's punish game and neutral game potential is only somewhat realized whereas Fox's punish game is basically at its peak (Correct DI and SDI will eventually greatly reduce the effectiveness of uthrow>uair along with his other BnBs).

I mean, M2K has been beating Foxes by just spamming grab in neutral and then converting with stylish, inefficient, and over the top punishes lol. I just don't see how top Foxes could ever have an "even" mu against a top Marth who played as precise and as optimized as they are. Especially if they have to approach.

I think if you take one step below top level, suddenly the full B tier I listed all become viable. But none of these characters will win a major with most Gods present unless they attach an A or S tier character as well.

Also while its an unlikely chance, Id actually bet on the C-tier specialists against several gods before the B-tiers (not peach right now but I can see it getting there). These characters struggle against the general usable cast, but have better aggregate MU's at top level against S/A then the B-tiers. Theyre also very difficult to use and hard to be consistent with which is why theyre only relevant at top level, in that sense theyre a bit foxesque but with less reward then fox. That makes their placement really weird. Yeah I know Samus is popular too but in some sense I was trying to imply he works on a different level for top level play.

Doc and Luigi probably are after the rest of these groups, but these characters not only seem to stand little to no chance against the smash gods but they rarely even make it far enough to try. Yoshi, Pikachu, and Samus I can see occasionally taking sets from melees god players, can't see that happening with Doc and Luigi.

Also M2K today posted his list for top 7, while just another opinion it did match my thoughts in terms of order.

Top 2: spacies
Next 2: marth puff
Next 3: sheik / peach / ics

Interesting observation with Pikachu/Yoshi doing better against top tiers than high tiers. Though I would argue Pikachu stands a better shot in this regard since his MU vs. Falco is way better than Yoshi's.

Doc/Mario both get rocked by Marth but all of his other MUs are alright; I think he has to play pretty lame to win vs. floaties though.

Pikachu is awful, but other than that, it just means the meta has been evolving.

Pikachu's mobility makes him better than half the cast on principle. The fact his options are actually somewhat well rounded in comparison to Samus/Luigi/Falcon is just icing on the cake.

 

[Tagxy]

Well I wasnt specific on who was hard for who. Ill give it a go

Bad/Even MUs-

Best case for Fox:
Fox: Falco
Falco: Fox, Marth, Puff, Peach, Samus, ICs
Marth: Fox, Falco, Sheik, Falcon, Pikachu, Puff

Worst case for Fox:
Fox: Falco, Marth
Falco: Fox, Marth, Puff, Peach, Samus
Marth: Fox, Falco, Sheik, Falcon, Pikachu

I dont wish to imply that Fox is the best at every MU. Falco may do better against one character then another for fox but fox still wins all the same MUs. The most distinguished top level players believe Fox beats Marth with few exceptions, I think at best we can consider it even in the current metagame unless theres drastic changes (I think its possible Fox beats Falco as players get better with PowerShield but Im leaving that off too). Wobbles has been losing a lot lately and doesnt wobble it seems, so I'm not sure how reliable he is as a barometer for the ICs/Falco MU. But I dont know and havent heard enough about this MU so I can see it potential falcos advantage. And while Marth seems to do better against Puff I dont know if its certain he wins.

I think in either case Fox looks a step above. Maybe instead of calling him S people might be more accepting of A+. Maybe some want to argue Falco actually wins against Puff, Peach, and Samus?


And yes I've grown on pika regarding his MU vs Spacies. Part of it is because I think Axe himself has become better at it. Among other things I think he has close to Marth level punishes but obviously with a worse neutral game. His tech chasing ability is outstanding (amazing dash speed, air speed, and dash dance. If they end up behind you uair, far away SH Nair, get up/get up attack = grab or upsmash, all of which leads to combos and more tech chasing). Axe at Paragon was looking good his biggest issue is consistency and impatience. His set vs Leffen came down to counterpicks and impatience (for instance he tried to get too aggressive on a bad transformation of PS in a match he couldve won, on FD his counterpick he kept rushing Leffen and Leffen just took advantage playing defensive).

 

[1MachGO]

Well if by "distinguished" you are probably referring to the top 6; in which case, its pretty split. However, I would argue that opinions of Leffen (Marth wins), Mango (Marth slightly wins), and PPMD (Unclear, but given his Apex performance, he'd probably say Marth wins or Marth slightly wins) hold more weight than the others just because they seem to have a higher understanding of player mindset and/or fundamentals of the game. M2K (Marth loses but loses just as much as Sheik) and Armada (Unclear, says Marth wins on FD) have always come off as far more jaded and its hard to say how often their arguments stem from passion vs. rational observation.

I mean, if we're taking player opinions, you might as well cross Peach and Puff off Falco's list and Puff off Marth's since PPMD (the best all-around Marth and Falco in the world right now) says Falco > Peach/Puff, and Marth > Puff.

So that leaves Falco's "non-winning" MUs as Fox, Samus. This would put him tied with Fox in your "worst case for Fox".

As for Marth, again, I would argue that he is only even against Falco and mayyybe Falcon whilst losing to Sheik. Pikachu is probably Marth's new Puff MU. Everyone says he loses because Marth's suck when they have MU unfamiliarity, but in all likelihood he wins with the correct playstyle. Everyone likes to **** about Pika's neutral but they have no problem arguing he beats a character with one of the best neutrals in the game. This isn't to argue that the MU is fantastic for Marth, but he definitely wins by at least a little bit.

Marth promptly trounces every other high tier in the game and annihilates all of the mid tiers and lower significantly harder than Fox/Falco with a few exceptions (though he isn't as good as Sheik).

 

[Tagxy]

Leffen has stated he doesnt know or practice the Marth MU, aside from him I havent heard anyone else claim Fox beats Marth outright (not just on one stage or another). I only used testimony because I feel results already speak for themselves and theres not much else that indicates Fox wins the MU, Fox has a disproportionate amount of success against Marth.

Maybe Falco beats peach and puff, I wont say Id find it surprising if thats the case as compared to Marth beating Fox. I know westballz used his platform camping strategy that Armada said was unbeatable. However results kind of indicate its more even, and I think its a bit telling that when players look for a counter to Peach and Puff for a rough MU they look to Fox.

Ultimately this is also why I think Fox deserves his own tier as well. With Fox anyone can have a secondary that can beat your mains counter MU without risk of encountering a tough MU.

For instance, I do think its possible Marth has a negligible advantage on pika (or not, could be the other way). However one of the primary reasons PPU has a fox for tournament is for Pikachu. Fox is the ulimate "my character struggles with this MU so Im going to use someone I can't lose a MU too" character. It's a popular path towards eventually maining Fox. I dont really think theres anything wrong with this and it seems common in fighting games I just think it is what it is.

 

[1MachGO]

Leffen has stated he doesnt know or practice the Marth MU, aside from him I havent heard anyone else claim Fox beats Marth outright (not just on one stage or another). I only used testimony because I feel results already speak for themselves and theres not much else that indicates Fox wins the MU, Fox has a disproportionate amount of success against Marth.

Is this a typo? You said: "aside from [Leffen] I havent heard anyone else claim Fox beats Marth outright"

But Leffen is well known for saying Marth > Fox. As evident by his Twitter or this statement from Paragon 2015: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5e_DlfQTxUE#t=1110

Regardless, Leffen believing he isn't able to play at his peak in a MU doesn't mean he can't formulate an opinion on it. His belief that Fox beats Samus isn't invalid just because he lost to Plup, is it?

I also don't think results have ever been in disproportionately in Fox's favor and I am not sure where you are getting this from. Mango is still the only Fox in the world to have a decent record against M2K's Marth, and even then, its 50-50: http://www.meleeitonme.com/tafostats-a-deeper-look-at-mango-and-mew2king/ . M2K has an extremely positive record against Leffen and Hax... and this is without considering deeper contextual evidence. M2K's punish game is extraordinary but he generally opts for flair over optimization in most circumstances. It gets even more ridiculous when you consider M2K's neutral is still stuck in 2010 and Melee isn't the only game he plays.

PPMD has a positive record against Leffen and Armada. And again, I would argue he was playing far less optimal than both of these players in their respective sets. He is essentially the opposite of M2K with a 2015 neutral and a shaky punish game.

The Moon has beaten Hax (double eliminated), Ice, Silent Wolf, Slox, and Fiction in the past two weeks. To be quite honest with you, I wouldn't have bet him over any of these players a month ago. I suppose Hax shouldn't count since he has an injured hand though.

PPU has a positive record over SFAT and barely lost to Hax at MLG (he self destructed last stock, last game). He doesn't travel too much, but PPU doing poorly against a Fox would be an upset.

Maybe Falco beats peach and puff, I wont say Id find it surprising if thats the case as compared to Marth beating Fox. I know westballz used his platform camping strategy that Armada said was unbeatable. However results kind of indicate its more even, and I think its a bit telling that when players look for a counter to Peach and Puff for a rough MU they look to Fox.

Ultimately this is also why I think Fox deserves his own tier as well. With Fox anyone can have a secondary that can beat your mains counter MU without risk of encountering a tough MU.

For instance, I do think its possible Marth has a negligible advantage on pika (or not, could be the other way). However one of the primary reasons PPU has a fox for tournament is for Pikachu. Fox is the ulimate "my character struggles with this MU so Im going to use someone I can't lose a MU too" character. It's a popular path towards eventually maining Fox. I dont really think theres anything wrong with this and it seems common in fighting games I just think it is what it is.

Fox being a popular secondary is a social trend and it isn't necessarily indicative of him being in his own tier. Armada is honestly the first instance where I've seen a Fox secondary possibly be worth more than the potential time put into improving your main (though Marth would have been just as useful given the MUs he needed CPs for). Even M2K's success with Fox as a secondary is somewhat meh.

And I'm pretty sure PPU had a Fox for Sheik and Yoshi; not Pikachu. (Lets be honest here, a secondary Fox wouldn't cut it vs. Axe; I don't think the next best Pikachu could beat PPU's Marth) Though judging from his tweets, I think he has all but retired the Fox for tournament usage.

 

[Tagxy]

Yes that was a typo, meant the reverse. I think leffen is entitled to his opinion, but you were qualifying how reliable opinions were.

I wasnt aware of the moons recent success, although I think itd need to be measured against his loses as well. Aside from that Marth's success against Fox has lived and died with M2K, he gets to play on the stages he likes as Marth and yet still loses to high level foxes. With aformentioned caveats with the moon, all other Marths tend to fall short against high level foxes. I can see a possibility on some theoretical level calling this MU even, but advantage marth just seems out of reach.

The problem with choosing not fox as a secondary is your secondary then has bad MUs and can end up counterpicked. Its likely the primary reason MK was so popular as well. Regarding PPU I know he had fox for other characters (which is why I said "one of"), but PPU himself said he had fox for pikachu.

 

[Fortress]

I'd honestly think samus struggles more vs sheik than gannon

I agree with this, I think that Ganondorf and Sheik, with their powerful aerial toolkits, have good options against characters that are easy to keep in the air, and Samus has typically been shown to be a character that is much better on the ground than the air.

 

[1MachGO]

Yes that was a typo, meant the reverse. I think leffen is entitled to his opinion, but you were qualifying how reliable opinions were.

I think Leffen offers a very fresh perspective compared to the other top players. Along with PP and Mango, I would say he is one of the few players who can provide a lot of insight in regards to the mental aspect of the game. Armada/M2K and other players such as Hax seem to view the game as far less organic and more flowchart-esque.

Leffen's ability to peg Diddy as the best char in Smash 4 wayyyy before everyone else should given some credence to his analysis and understanding of games.

Mango also saying the MU is even or slightly in Marth's favor should also mean something.

I wasnt aware of the moons recent success, although I think itd need to be measured against his loses as well. Aside from that Marth's success against Fox has lived and died with M2K, he gets to play on the stages he likes as Marth and yet still loses to high level foxes. With aformentioned caveats with the moon, all other Marths tend to fall short against high level foxes. I can see a possibility on some theoretical level calling this MU even, but advantage marth just seems out of reach.

Your argument relies on a lack of examples. Just because there hasn't been any Marth players good enough to compete with top foxes doesn't indicate Fox beats Marth. Its no different than everyone saying Marth sucked vs. floaties and couldn't win a national in 2011 because talent in the Marth playerbase was in a lull. It took PP's win over M2K's sheik at Apex 2014 for people to start taking Marth seriously again.

The Moon's recent success is an indication that he has improved as a player. His lifetime career vs. Foxes at his skill level is excellent. PPU is definitely better/more consistent than the Moon, but he doesn't travel particularly often.

M2K has gone entire sets as Marth vs. Mango/Leffen/Hax. His performance vs. these players is significant since he [kinda] is at the forefront of the Marth meta. Lower level examples of play are far less significant.

PPMD's performance with Marth vs. Fox is also significant. Armada had three sets to figure out how to fight PP's Marth and still got 3-0'd in the end. It's also important to note the strengths/weaknesses of ppmd's play when compared to m2k's (neutral oriented vs. punish oriented). So we're seeing two totally different styles of marth performing very well against different styles (albeit, more optimized) of fox.

If anything, fox/marth being an even MU is the safest claim (it's been the general consensus for ages) with marth beating fox a theoretical, but human possibility and fox beating marth a theoretical, but tas realm possibility.

The problem with choosing not fox as a secondary is your secondary then has bad MUs and can end up counterpicked. Its likely the primary reason MK was so popular as well. Regarding PPU I know he had fox for other characters (which is why I said "one of"), but PPU himself said he had fox for pikachu.

It really depends on the circumstance. As stated earlier, ppu could have used sheik and armada could have used marth. Obviously you want to pick a secondary that can't be counter picked, but that's something that is more dependent on the opponent than anything else. Armada's young link worked against hbox for years and he finally had to switch to fox. Even then, I feel like now he'll struggle against pp since neither fox or peach can cp a marth or Falco

 

[dharper7]

cool info, thanks

 

[Tagxy]

I think Leffen offers a very fresh perspective compared to the other top players. Along with PP and Mango, I would say he is one of the few players who can provide a lot of insight in regards to the mental aspect of the game. Armada/M2K and other players such as Hax seem to view the game as far less organic and more flowchart-esque.

Leffen's ability to peg Diddy as the best char in Smash 4 wayyyy before everyone else should given some credence to his analysis and understanding of games.

Mango also saying the MU is even or slightly in Marth's favor should also mean something.

lol, well if Im being honest I think this is just your preference speaking. Also Diddy is a popular pick as best character among common folk, but the game's top level players only agree he is the easiest.

Your argument relies on a lack of examples. Just because there hasn't been any Marth players good enough to compete with top foxes doesn't indicate Fox beats Marth. Its no different than everyone saying Marth sucked vs. floaties and couldn't win a national in 2011 because talent in the Marth playerbase was in a lull. It took PP's win over M2K's sheik at Apex 2014 for people to start taking Marth seriously again.

The Moon's recent success is an indication that he has improved as a player. His lifetime career vs. Foxes at his skill level is excellent. PPU is definitely better/more consistent than the Moon, but he doesn't travel particularly often.

M2K has gone entire sets as Marth vs. Mango/Leffen/Hax. His performance vs. these players is significant since he [kinda] is at the forefront of the Marth meta. Lower level examples of play are far less significant.

PPMD's performance with Marth vs. Fox is also significant. Armada had three sets to figure out how to fight PP's Marth and still got 3-0'd in the end. It's also important to note the strengths/weaknesses of ppmd's play when compared to m2k's (neutral oriented vs. punish oriented). So we're seeing two totally different styles of marth performing very well against different styles (albeit, more optimized) of fox.

If anything, fox/marth being an even MU is the safest claim (it's been the general consensus for ages) with marth beating fox a theoretical, but human possibility and fox beating marth a theoretical, but tas realm possibility.

Well we can talk about how there isnt a ton of info at top level, but with whats there your information and examples agree with what Ive said, the MU is even at best or favors Fox. If we're talking about Marth and Fox players "good enough" the only example we have is Mango vs M2K where M2K gets to pick the stages he wants to use for Marth. I havent done extensive research of non top level marth fox but I would be surprised if it didnt strongly leans fox's favor.

I feel like the only evidence of Marth beating Fox exists if we selectively pick M2K's wins over Leffen/Hax/Other good foxs, while ignoring notable Marth's records against notable fox's.

It really depends on the circumstance. As stated earlier, ppu could have used sheik and armada could have used marth. Obviously you want to pick a secondary that can't be counter picked, but that's something that is more dependent on the opponent than anything else. Armada's young link worked against hbox for years and he finally had to switch to fox. Even then, I feel like now he'll struggle against pp since neither fox or peach can cp a marth or Falco

Its only dependant on the opponent if fox has a bad MU, which doesn't appear a popular opinion. The reverse of this is why I listed it as a reason for Fox being in his own tier, Fox is a popular secondary because people believe they can't be counterpicked. According to Armada's post game interview he's picked Fox for Marth as much as Jiggs.

 

[1MachGO]

lol, well if Im being honest I think this is just your preference speaking. Also Diddy is a popular pick as best character among common folk, but the game's top level players only agree he is the easiest.

Perhaps the original point was lost. Of the 6 best players in the game, 5 have high level experience in the MU, 3 would say its even/Marth's favor and 2 would say its Fox's (one of those 2 being M2K who always undersells any character he plays + himself)

Well we can talk about how there isnt a ton of info at top level, but with whats there your information and examples agree with what Ive said, the MU is even at best or favors Fox. If we're talking about Marth and Fox players "good enough" the only example we have is Mango vs M2K where M2K gets to pick the stages he wants to use for Marth. I havent done extensive research of non top level marth fox but I would be surprised if it didnt strongly leans fox's favor.

I feel like the only evidence of Marth beating Fox exists if we selectively pick M2K's wins over Leffen/Hax/Other good foxs, while ignoring notable Marth's records against notable fox's.

I don't understand how you can reach that conclusion.

For starters, I explicitly said that the evidence points to the MU being even as a safe bet. Marth > Fox is an easier sell than Fox > Marth.

Secondly, I don't understand why you are ignoring PPMD's results. M2K/Mango is not the only example of top Marth vs. top Fox play. PPMD just beat two top foxes at Apex lol putting him 8-4 in matches vs. Leffen (or 2-1 sets) and 3-3 in matches vs. Armada (1-1 in sets; its interesting to note that PP never took Armada to FD). If you want, we can throw in PPMD's three stock vs. Mango at MLG and Mango's Marth winning two matches vs. Hax to close out their set at BH4.

You are also ignoring many details with M2K vs. Mango/Leffen/Hax. Of all the "gods" in the game, Mango is essentially the only one M2K actually has a decent record against. Combined with the fact that M2K holds a positive record against other top Foxes with completely different styles... I'd say it becomes very telling about the MU; especially when considering how unoptimal M2K plays in neutral or how over the top his punish game has evolved.

The fact M2K gets to pick the stage is moot since his opponent gets to pick their best stage as well (M2K goes predominantly to exclusively Marth vs. Mango/Leffen/Hax. The stats I linked you between Mango and M2K shows that it isn't just Marth on FD). The legal stage list should be a factor in the MU.

Top level play is also more significant than mid or even high level play for two reasons: 1. the players are more consistent and 2. the players at the top level are demonstrating the current development of their respective character's meta. I haven't looked extensively into the records of PPU/The Moon (though they both perform very well vs. Foxes in their tier from what I hear) but their results are ultimately less important since they aren't at that level of play yet (PPU is getting pretty close though).

Regardless, the combined evidence of top Marth vs. top Fox is dead even if we're being selective or somewhat in Marth's favor if we are considering a slightly broader spectrum.

Its only dependant on the opponent if fox has a bad MU, which doesn't appear a popular opinion. The reverse of this is why I listed it as a reason for Fox being in his own tier, Fox is a popular secondary because people believe they can't be counterpicked. According to Armada's post game interview he's picked Fox for Marth as much as Jiggs.

Fox and Jiggs had wayyyyyy more to do with Armada's Fox switch than Marth (hence Armada still trying Peach vs. Marth in winners + Armada talking about using Fox more a year ago having to do with Fox/Puff). As stated earlier, Armada most likely believes that Fox wins, but I would still argue his opinion is less credible than the collective opinions of Leffen, PP, and Mango.

I am not denying Fox doesn't have many bad MUs and definitely not any severe ones, but the same can be said for Falco and Marth/Sheik in many situations. They all make great secondaries.

 

[Tagxy]

@ 1 1MachGO Keep in mind Im only speaking of the current meta, not the different theoretical potential people see that may or may not occur.

The only player I know who's outright said its Marth's favor is leffen, who's also stated he doesnt know the MU well enough or practice it enough.

The reason I stated results are more in agreement with my position is because even if the MU is even, it still puts Fox in a notably stronger position for reasons I mentioned earlier and definitely makes him peerless as a secondary. I presented a case for Marth being an even MU vs Fox, and dont think it makes much a difference between even and fox slightly winning. And regardless of how much Armada picked fox for each character in his post apex interview he stated after going peach the first time he realized peach couldnt cut it against marth and was part of his decision in choosing fox. And I do know sheik or other characters are probably worse for Marth, as I said I dont think Fox is the best vs every character.

The difference in our interpretation of top level play of Fox and Marth comes from the fact that Armada and Leffen have both stated theyre not very good at that MU yet. I didnt ignore PP, I feel including these at top level is as useful as including Mango vs a notable marth main. You may feel theres a difference between them, but the bigger point is PP vs Leffen/Armada is not top level Marth-Fox.

And yes I know M2K v Mango isnt just FD, I think the bigger point is that M2K gets to avoid stages he doesnt want to go to more often (he essentially never plays on BF) which certainly skews win/loss results.