2013 Community Tier List

[1MachGO]

You could say that, but that doesn't make it true.

Applies to your post as well so I am not sure what you are trying to say. Perhaps you are philosophizing the merit of posting to begin with?

Marth still has a harder time killing Puff, Falcon and even Yoshi at high percents while Falco does not have the same problem. You can't always get the early kills on these characters as Marth.

Taking longer to kill someone doesn't matter when your neutral is that much better. Marth has far less killing options on Peach than Falcon/Puff at almost every percent and all you have to do is watch PPMD vs. Armada to understand the long game shouldn't be a hindrance at top level.

Its moot to mention anyway since Marth's punish game has never been his problem against Puff, Falcon, or Yoshi; its always been lack of MU knowledge.

 

[Varist]

It should be very obvious to everyone at this point, and will only become more obvious, I've been saying for a couple of years that Marth and Fox are the best characters in this game. Neither of them have glaring weaknesses when played a certain way. Falco's glaring weakness is his speed, Sheik is a less mobile and less disjointed version of Marth. Fox and Marth are SS, Falco and Sheik are S, the other guys are A. This will only become more obvious as time goes on and it looks like it's already obvious to the Europeans because of their nerfed version of sheik. The sheik matchup does not hold Marth back, it's just that old Marth styles were ****ty against Sheik's moveset.

 

[blackfoger]

Why is Kirby so dang low?

 

[EddyBearr]

Why is Kirby so dang low?

People look at Kirby as a Jigglypuff that doesn't work, even though competitive Kirby and competitive Jigglypuff have exceedingly different playstyles. They'll try to combo fair after bair after bair, and then accuse Kirby of malfunctioning since it doesn't work.

 

[Varist]

that's not the actual reason. while playstyle for kirby could definitely be optimized, even with an optimized playstyle all it's going to take to beat a kirby is any other optimized character. kirbys aerials have slow start up that can be punished on reaction by the spacies and sheik, his aerial mobility is ass, his punishes are ass, his weight is ass. a lot of the tier list comes down to hitboxes and frame data, not mistaken communitywide playstyle and kirbys data is just ****

 

[blackfoger]

well that helps, thanks!

 

[EddyBearr]

I definitely wouldn't say you can react to Kirby's aerials, even with 1 frame shine; that kind of reaction time is just unreal. Likewise, fair/bair and all of Kirby's tilts have great hitboxes and other frame data. Uair, dair, and d-smash are all definitely passable and have consistent usage. This ignores a lot of his ground movement (which is bad, but not nearly the worst), his crouch, his grab, his hurtbox + floatiness making him pretty hard to combo, and etc.

Kirby's aerial mobility has little impact on his meta because Kirby is a ground-based character to begin with, and would be even with decent aerial mobility.

If someone states that the tier list should be about hitboxes and frame data (which I mostly agree with), especially with terms of being able to react, then there's no good excuse for Bowser to be above Kirby, and it's very hard to argue Pichu above Kirby as well.

 

[kingPiano]

Yea Varist is exaggerating a bit and in the process throwing out some bogus info.

Kirby's Fair and Bair can't be reacted to really, unless you are a robot. In that case everyone's aerials can be reacted to. His Bair for instance comes out faster than Jigglypuff's, lasts much longer, and also is more powerful in it's damage and resulting knockback.
His Fair and Bair also provide sufficient shield stun and safe pressure. Each hit of Fair benefits from the high base shield stun, so even though they are low damage all three together are equivalent to a 32 damage aerial. The same applies to Dair, but that move is more risky and is a bit less safe unless you space it right (hitboxes are quite generous).

His U-air is hard to time at first, but this can actually be a good thing since I find that opponents never get used to when it's hitboxes become active (and humans can't react within 11 frames). It's not a move that you used to get out of pressure or in clutch situations; but it can still be used to end combos easily, poke up platforms, Kill predictable recoveries, and often KO edgeguarders.

Kirby's aerial mobility has little impact on his meta because Kirby is a ground-based character to begin with, and would be even with decent aerial mobility.

Kirby's Aerial Mobility is the main reason he is so low on the tier list. His terrible air speed and acceleration severely limits his combo and follow up opportunities. It also makes him easy to follow and predict in neutral and recovering, he's moving at normal speed while a Fox or Falcon are moving at Super Saiyan 3 speeds.

His aerials B-air, last hit Fair, and U-air are the three most commonly used and powerful KO moves and they are exclusively limited by his bad mobility in the air. So the last part of your statement makes no sense to me, if he had Falcon's aerial mobility it would greatly impact his meta and tier list standing.


His ground movement is actually not bad either, dash speed is only 0.1 below Falco's, and his wavedash is good (tied with Sheik, Falcon, Pikachu). During about 60% of his Wavedash he is in ducking mode; his jump start-up and air land are both the same as his crouch, there's actually about 3-4 frames in which he goes even lower than his normal crouch/duck. I've been able to wavedash under projectiles and even through attacks quite often.

 

[Varist]

no kirbys dair has the same problem samuss dair has it starts up too slow and is easily reacted to by anyone in the cast who jumps quickly and all his aerial hitboxes are **** and he can't combo at all and he is really just a garbage character with no hope of rising higher than bowser

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Dair does have more startup than ganon's fair, but it can be useful sometimes since people's options tend to get cut off during edgeguards.

Kirby's main problem is mobility IMO. His ground approach is literally nothing and his aerial approach is laughable at best. None of his tilts are safe on shield, at best he can space to avoid punishment, but that doesn't stop them from wavedashing backward and continuing the camp. Maybe i'm thinking too much like fox

 

[kingPiano]

Dair does have more startup than ganon's fair, but it can be useful sometimes since people's options tend to get cut off during edgeguards.

Kirby's main problem is mobility IMO. His ground approach is literally nothing and his aerial approach is laughable at best. None of his tilts are safe on shield, at best he can space to avoid punishment, but that doesn't stop them from wavedashing backward and continuing the camp. Maybe i'm thinking too much like fox

Hmmm I find that dash into D-tilt or WD D-tilts work pretty damn good; has awesome range, and Up-tilt is pretty safe on shield since it has sufficient stun and pushes them back when it's spammed at range (can vary based on traction of course). It's fast enough that it will catch them if they drop shield.

F-tilt is really the only unsafe one I find since it has just a little too much lag to be safe to just throw them out. It's a strong move though with surprising range (for a foot lol)

We're seeing more and more the use of his dash attack at a high level too, it's actually viable to use. It can be punished on reaction if you throw it out too soon but when it lands it has some limited combos out of it and is always safe on hit since it has high initial knockback (also pretty high priority). When you land the fair first 2 hits or floor hitbox it will pop them up often and you can dash attack, hit them with the tail end of the animation (while they are still in hitstun), and then Up air or Bair.

Approaching SHFFL Fairs are also pretty good, they can be considered a "ground" approach because they act like Jiggly's Bairs in neutral (but not as good since Kirby's air speed and acceleration aren't nearly as fast). Also FH double bairs, advancing backwards across the stage with SH Auto-cancelled bairs, and multi-jump Fair and Bair spamming can be hard to get past.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I have better things to do than argue about why kirby is garbage. A lot of the things you mention are not real tactics, but they might work on people that dont expect them. When were talking about matchups we have to assume both sides know what the other can do and is competent at stopping it.

 

[kingPiano]

I have better things to do than argue about why kirby is garbage. A lot of the things you mention are not real tactics, but they might work on people that dont expect them. When were talking about matchups we have to assume both sides know what the other can do and is competent at stopping it.

That's fine I'm sure you do have better things to do. Was curious if maybe you weren't too busy to give you're thoughts on Bowser (who you have at 24th), more specifically DJ Nintendo's Bowser?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Another character I'm not very interested in discussing. But I will say that his ability to KO is so significantly better than Kirby's and Pichu's that there is no doubt to me that he is above them.

 

[kingPiano]

Another character I'm not very interested in discussing. But I will say that his ability to KO is so significantly better than Kirby's and Pichu's that there is no doubt to me that he is above them.

Ok, that's pretty much the reply I expected.

 

[EddyBearr]

Bowser's ability to KO is not better than Kirby's. Kirby is able to combo u-tilt into uair at kill percents on most worthwhile characters, which has more kill potential than almost any relevant move Bowser has, given that his stronger attacks like uair have 20+ frames of start-up. Kirby's bair is also almost as strong as Bowser's fair and not siginificantly weaker than bowser's bair; to make matters worse for Bowser, Kirby can hit you with his bair hitbox before you can realize Kirby started a jumpsquat, whereas Bowser's bair should not work because of its 9-frame startup along his 8-frame jumpsquat; unless of course you're floating right in front of bowser in the air, in which case, why aren't you spacing this brick out? The only plausible exceptions are dsmash and maybe usmash, which you basically have to roll or jump into.

Against Mario at 100% with an unstaled, clean hit: s/100 * ([[14*[p+d]*d+2] / [w + 100]] + 18) + b
Bowser fair: 153.784 knockback at 361°
Bowser bair: 121.672 knockback at 24°
Bowser uair: 207.24 knockback at 85°
Bowser dsmash (last hit if all hits hit): 180.854 knockback at 90°
Kirby fair (3rd hit, if first 2 hit): 139.317 knockback at 361°
Kirby bair: 139.73 knockback at 361°
Kirby uair: 168.76 knockback at 361°

Keep in mind that most bowser moves have low KBG and higher BKB whereas Kirby moves have high KBG, so Kirby's bair likely surpasses Bowser's fair not too long after 100% against Mario as a base.

You can charge at Bowser like a bad player and get up-b'd out of shield, but then Kirby can easily just u-tilt you which has extremely good priority, and kill you sooner than up-B OoS does with uair. It doesn't help that Bowser's mobility is tiers lower than Kirby's already bad mobility, and that his perhaps 2 legitimate options can be respected to nullify any chance Bowser has to actually get a KO; it also makes matters even worse that if Bowser goes for a KO and misses, he should be dead given his atrocious overall stats, whereas Kirby has far safer moves while being harder to kill off any particular initiation. This also says nothing about Kirby's edgeguarding.

And idk what's with this talk about reacting to kirby's dair -- Dair should only ever be used off-stage, where it's actually kinda hard to meteor cancel properly thanks to its unique knockback, decent hitboxes, and multi-hits.

 

[kingPiano]

Bowser's ability to KO is not better than Kirby's. Kirby is able to combo u-tilt into uair at kill percents on most worthwhile characters, which has more kill potential than almost any relevant move Bowser has, given that his stronger attacks like uair have 20+ frames of start-up. Kirby's bair is also as strong as Bowser's fair and not siginificantly weaker than bowser's bair; to make matters worse for Bowser, Kirby can hit you with his bair hitbox before you can realize Kirby started a jumpsquat, whereas Bowser's bair should not work because of it's 9 frame startup along his 8frame jumpsquat. The only plausible exceptions are dsmash and maybe usmash, which you basically have to roll or jump into.

You can charge at Bowser like a bad player and get up-b'd out of shield, but then Kirby can easily just u-tilt you which has extremely good priority, and kill you sooner than up-B OoS does with uair. It doesn't help that Bowser's mobility is tiers lower than Kirby's already bad mobility, and that his perhaps 2 legitimate options can be respected to nullify any chance Bowser has to actually get a KO. This also says nothing about Kirby's edgeguarding.

And idk what's with this talk about reacting to kirby's dair -- Dair should only ever be used off-stage, where it's actually kinda hard to meteor cancel properly thanks to its unique knockback, decent hitboxes, and multi-hits.

For once we agree outright, it's a Christmas miracle.

I didn't want to actually bring it up but after reading some of Sveets early replies I think it's definitely relevant.

So Sveet got 0-2'ed by DJ Nintendo's Bowser and he was using Fox, then Sheik...we're talking about the best characters against one of the worst (in mine and many others opinion THE bottom of the pile worst).

And Sveet says he puts himself on the level of ORLY.....well ORLY's Falcon got beat by Triple R's Kirby. And there are no match-up johns there, ORLY has watched and matched/friendlied Triple R many times I'm sure. So basically Sveet could get beat by Triple R's Kirby if him and ORLY are on the same level. Sveet thinks Bowser and Kirby are garbage and laughable....well then I guess bottom tier garbage can beat his top tiers. By extension he's calling himself garbage.

Now I only bring this up because Sveet has been asking for credentials from everyone who makes a tier list. Okay so what are your credentials that make you able to place and judge Kirby and Bowser. Seems to me like you are not qualified to even place them on a tier list since both your top tiers lost to a Bowser and it would appear you have no experience winning against a competent Kirby.

Are you exempt from your own rules you created?

Technically from your own experience you'd have to put Bowser above both Fox and Sheik on your tier list since you got 0-2ed by one. Imagine that.

 

[Comet7]

Another character I'm not very interested in discussing. But I will say that his ability to KO is so significantly better than Kirby's and Pichu's that there is no doubt to me that he is above them.

pichu isn't a slouch at KO'ing. with the same mario eddy used, his up smash does 214.16 knockback at 95°.

for kirby, king and eddy nailed it.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

So Sveet got 0-2'ed by DJ Nintendo's Bowser and he was using Fox, then Sheik...we're talking about the best characters against one of the worst (in mine and many others opinion THE bottom of the pile worst).

And Sveet says he puts himself on the level of ORLY.....well ORLY's Falcon got beat by Triple R's Kirby. And there are no match-up johns there, ORLY has watched and matched/friendlied Triple R many times I'm sure. So basically Sveet could get beat by Triple R's Kirby if him and ORLY are on the same level. Sveet thinks Bowser and Kirby are garbage and laughable....well then I guess bottom tier garbage can beat his top tiers. By extension he's calling himself garbage.

Now I only bring this up because Sveet has been asking for credentials from everyone who makes a tier list. Okay so what are your credentials that make you able to place and judge Kirby and Bowser. Seems to me like you are not qualified to even place them on a tier list since both your top tiers lost to a Bowser and it would appear you have no experience winning against a competent Kirby.

This is the type of toxic inui logic that makes me never want to post. Yes I lost to the single best bowser in the world, I must have no clue what Im talking about.

Tell me kingPiano, what was the last tournament you won, when was the last time you made it out of pools at a national? You really have no idea what you're talking about and you're honestly being pretty rude.

 

[kingPiano]

This is the type of toxic inui logic that makes me never want to post. Yes I lost to the single best bowser in the world, I must have no clue what Im talking about.

Tell me kingPiano, what was the last tournament you won, when was the last time you made it out of pools at a national? You really have no idea what you're talking about and you're honestly being pretty rude.

The difference here is that I'm not claiming a character is garbage and then talking misinformed nonsense about their options, moves, approaches, and meta. You do have me at a disadvantage in that I don't have public matches and sets for everyone's viewing. But you'd think because you do that you'd be a bit more careful and wise about how you rank and discuss characters.

If Kirby is such garbage, and your bud ORLY lost to him then that logically means that you are saying that both you and him are even worse than garbage since he got beat by a Kirby with his Top Tier main and you got sweeped by a Bowser (24th on your list) with your top tiers.

Please tell me how this logic doesn't make sense to you, it's pretty straight-forward.

I'm holding you to the same standard you expect from everyone else that you asked to vote on the tier list. How can you call character garbage if they are able to beat your top tiers? How can you then also rank, compare, and talk about them if you have no winning record or real experience against them? How can you say so certainly " that his (Bowser's) ability to KO is so significantly better than Kirby's and Pichu's that there is no doubt to me that he is above them."?

It's just puzzling to me when people talk with such hyperbolic certainty about MUs and characters they actually have little to no experience with. That's the real toxic of this site.

And I do not bring up those sets with malicious intent, but they are quite obvious examples that completely disagree with what you say. They outright contradict your points and current position.

 

[EddyBearr]

pichu isn't a slouch at KO'ing. with the same mario eddy used, his up smash does 214.16 knockback at 95°.

Also pretty easy to set-up with Pichu's amazing tomahawk and/or dash dance. Pichu may only have like.. 2 options to KO with, but it's the set-up that matters.
How about unstaled nair (always an avenger KO option)?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

If Kirby is such garbage, and your bud ORLY lost to him then that logically means that you are saying that both you and him are even worse than garbage since he got beat by a Kirby with his Top Tier main and you got sweeped by a Bowser (24th on your list) with your top tiers.

No, that is not what that means. Players win games, not characters.

Also this is the 2nd time I will warn you., watch who you are calling garbage. ORLY, myself, DJN, and Triple R would all destroy you.

I'm holding you to the same standard you expect from everyone else that you asked to vote on the tier list.

No, youre not. Youre being a ****.

How can you call character garbage if they are able to beat your top tiers? How can you then also rank, compare, and talk about them if you have no winning record or real experience against them? How can you say so certainly " that his (Bowser's) ability to KO is so significantly better than Kirby's and Pichu's that there is no doubt to me that he is above them."?

Because surprise surprise i've had matches outside of that one on stream. GASP maybe i've even played the matchup before. Perhaps I just happened to lose because DJN is better than every other bowser in the world and hes also a better player than me.

It's just puzzling to me when people talk with such hyperbolic certainty about MUs and characters they actually have little to no experience with. That's the real toxic of this site.

Says the 2015 scrub who doesn't attend tournaments. You honestly have no clue what you're talking about.

And I do not bring up those sets with maliciously intent, but they are quite obvious examples that completely disagree with what you say. They outright contradict your points and current position.

No they really don't. Its 1 set, it means virtually nothing.

 

[kingPiano]

Also this is the 2nd time I will warn you., watch who you are calling garbage. ORLY, myself, DJN, and Triple R would all destroy you.

I didn't call you garbage you called yourself and ORLY garbage according to these sets and your opinions of the characters you lost to.

I have no doubt you all could beat me, never said you couldn't. I actually have much respect for Triple R and DJN.

And if it's the players and not the characters then I guess you are saying that they surpass your skill and ORLY's skill by a factor of 10 or more if they can beat your top tiers with such "garbage" low tiers. But that can't be true since both DJN and Triple R still have trouble defeating the top players (even DJN with his top tiers). I see a lot of players with these types of silly excuses when they lose to low tiers. DJN knows Bowser well (not even his secondary) as does Triple R his Kirby....and you know your main top tiers well. So what is the problem? Just because they actually know how to play the low tier character they choose it invalidates everything? I guess you will only be satisfied when you beat a Bowser or Kirby player that just started playing the character and is clueless...

Many more of your points are empty too....like claiming "it's only 1 set". Okay well then where are the sets where you beat a Bowser or Kirby so easily? What are you basing all this Kirby and Bowser comparison and trash talking on? Even if it was only streamed or never even captured you have yet to even bring up any anything even in this conversation.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

And now you realize how deep melee is, that the top 5 players can 4 stock the players in the top 20. And the top 20 players can 4 stock the top 50 players.

Now stop being a pompous ****.


edit- response to your edit- Honestly where do you get off asking me for all my sets? This is borderline ad hominem. You have literally nothing to contribute to this discussion, no experience, nothing. I could list off my sets and whatnot, but you've been nothing but rude this entire time so I have no desire to converse with you. You really need to learn how to respect your elders.

 

[kingPiano]

And now you realize how deep melee is, that the top 5 players can 4 stock the players in the top 20. And the top 20 players can 4 stock the top 50 players.

Now stop being a pompous ****.


edit- response to your edit- Honestly where do you get off asking me for all my sets? This is borderline ad hominem. You have literally nothing to contribute to this discussion, no experience, nothing. I could list off my sets and whatnot, but you've been nothing but rude this entire time so I have no desire to converse with you. You really need to learn how to respect your elders.

You keep dodging the point and also seem oblivious to why I'm asking these things once again. You have yet to even say that you've played a Kirby or other Bowser and beat them easily (and who).

It's not ad hominem because I haven't laid out a tier list, I haven't talked crap ignorantly on a character, and I haven't compared two characters without providing an actual reasoning (others have provided complimentary info as well).

If you were to go up to Triple R and tell him his character is garbage, or if after he beat your top tier you tell him Kirby is garbage and that it doesn't count...it'd be pretty rude and wouldn't make much sense. You keep accusing me of being rude, but you've started it and you've continued it.

Elders? So you've been playing Melee this long and you been on this site for this long and you have 15K posts yet you lose to a Bowser with all that experience and playing an OP broken character who has a huge MU advantage? Sorry but age and time does not equal skill or actual experience gained. Some people can take 10 years to learn what others learn in a matter of months. Some people just have crap reaction time and bad intuition for Melee. Everyone has a different glass ceiling and learning curve.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Money match me for any amount. This conversation is over.

 

[1MachGO]

Pretty sure kingPiano is flaming. Just ignore him, Sveet.

 

[Comet7]

Also pretty easy to set-up with Pichu's amazing tomahawk and/or dash dance. Pichu may only have like.. 2 options to KO with, but it's the set-up that matters.
How about unstaled nair (always an avenger KO option)?

there's well timed f smash as well, but it's not nearly as reliable. it hits like a freight train though, so it's something to keep in mind. nair does 145.76 knockback. dair's base knockback is 2 more than nair's, which is 18, so it would do 147.76 knockback. both are at 361 degrees.

i wish i could find the data for fully charged skull bash just for laughs, but i don't know how to find that with master hand.

 

[Griffard]

Wooooow KingPiano for biggest troll NA. What an awful 'argument'. Reminds me of people who say Climate change is imaginary because sometimes it's really cold/hot outside.

 

[kingPiano]

Wooooow KingPiano for biggest troll NA. What an awful 'argument'. Reminds me of people who say Climate change is imaginary because sometimes it's really cold/hot outside.

Okay so let's say someone had never played a Sheik before (even one on their level) and they Main Fox. Or more like this scenario they had only played a Sheik once and they lost 0-2. They hadn't really seen any other matches of high level Sheik vs Fox match-ups. They had also never really even tried playing the character in a competitive environment and it became quite obvious they didn't even know much about how to use the character on an intermediate level.

Do you think they are qualified to talk about Sheik or their placement on a tier list, or say that Sheik is "garbage" and is WAY below Fox even though they've been beaten by one and have no other real experience. Then they also ask others for credentials and question other's reasoning for tier placements....

Your shallow analogy goes both ways, it's like saying Climate change is confirmed just because sometimes it's really hot/cold outside. There is no evidence, proof, or experience it's based in or actual explanation given.

Myself and like 3 other people gave ample explanations and basically corrected all the misinformation that both Sveet and Varist were spouting. Their responses were "I don't feel like discussing or explaining"


Well in that case then all there is left are the matches where you lost 0-2 to a Bowser and your bud who you say is of comparable skill lost to a Kirby 1-2....both using Top Tiers.

But those characters are "garbage"...hmmm :/

 

[Comet7]

why don't you just discuss kirby and not other users? i'm pretty sure that's what this thread is for. how about what kirby can do from grabs, since the issue of kirby's approaches being stuffed by shields came up earlier? this seems like a big problem since on most important characters kirby has to really commit if he wants to tech chase from down throw, and his other throws are pretty underwhelming unless at those weird %s where he can do back throw to up air (i don't even know if this is reliable but that's just me).

 

[Dolla Pills]

The thing about Bowser is he just doesn't have many good options, a good move set, or good movement. He's slow, his weight makes him combo food, he is a huge target, and he has very linear recovery. You don't have to beat a good Bowser to understand that. On the other hand, Sheik doesn't have these problems so it wouldn't make sense to rate her that low.

Sveet losing to DJ Nintendo really just speaks to differences in skill level, and I'm not sure what that has to do with tier lists.

 

[kingPiano]

The thing about Bowser is he just doesn't have many good options, a good move set, or good movement. He's slow, his weight makes him combo food, he is a huge target, and he has very linear recovery. You don't have to beat a good Bowser to understand that. On the other hand, Sheik doesn't have these problems so it wouldn't make sense to rate her that low.

Sveet losing to DJ Nintendo really just speaks to differences in skill level, and I'm not sure what that has to do with tier lists.

I totally agree with both of you. Kirby and Bowser are very limited (Bowser far more). But the main point is that how can you call a character garbage and then get beat by them, the skill gap is not that large either (especially in the case of ORLY and Triple R, they are even. DJN Bowser to Sveet's top tiers the MU gap would still put the favor heavily on Sveet's side). That pretty much already qualifies them as not "garbage" and also seeing results against other top tier respectable players that disagree completely with the "Kirby is garbage" sentiment. Most smashers that have never faced a "good" Kirby think it will be a piece of cake and lol at the fact that there are "good Kirbys", they usually get massacred. Those that know the match-up and have played against a Kirby usually hate the match up because they know it's actually kind of frustrating and more difficult than what the tier list would suggest (can duck attacks and grabs, Fair is pretty annoying and hard to counter, grab range is actually good, kirbycides, Tilts can space well, Dsmash has a dangerous KB angle and has reach, Up Air is very powerful, Dair can be weird to meteor cancel, etc)

And if personal experience and tournament experience has nothing to do with giving an opinion on a tier list then why does Sveet ask for credentials. Why don't we all just sit and talk about hypothetical imaginary match ups, experience doesn't matter? ummm... okay

The other main point was to correct both Varist and Sveet who were obviously misinformed about Kirby's options and approaches and clearly had no experience themselves with the character even at an entry level. Many of us corrected them outright.

For Kirby specifically I've never seen a competent Kirby get destroyed and in the case of Mooninite, Triple R and others (Malkasaur and C.Rabbit) they've been able to hold their own and win over top tiers from equally skilled players. Even Bizarro Flame and Mew2King who far exceed their skill level and use MUCH more viable characters....and in those sets concerning Triple R he SD'ed a few times and wasn't even playing at his fullest (probably nerves), yet he still kept it very close. With other characters that are above Kirby you can routinely see them get demolished and gimped in 10-15 seconds even in the hands of their top mains.

So again not "garbage", the main point.

You can't really gimp or kill a Kirby since his recovery while most will blab about being bad will still keep him alive much past other 0-death combos and ledge guards on Fox, Falco, Falcon, Ganondorf, etc. This combined with his weight and floatiness can make him hard to combo to death fast, he's easy to kill fast once above 70-100, but you have to land a KO move not many guaranteed combos into kills at high percents.

Sample size is also a huge factor. Kirby has MUCH MUCH MUCH less representation than the top tiers. This can be argued either way and that his placement feeds into the lack of mains, but it's still a large factor in discussing him. Scientifically you don't ask one person a question and then publish your results on the behalf of a large population. Yoshi has way more potential than Kirby, but just as an example of sample size no one was using the character seriously for a LONG time at nationals until AmSa took 5th at APEX 2015. Even then it's one person, the chances of just one person being that amazing to propel such a forgotten underrated character are exponentially less than the sea of 10s of thousands Fox/Falco, Sheik Mains out there who can't even place at nationals.

 

[Dolla Pills]

That's fair I suppose. The only other thing I would add is that if you are facing a good low tier for the first time and are losing you will probably get frustrated and play worse, so I would assume that has an impact as well. Bowser and Kirby are limited, but they do have options and can definitely beat high tiers sometimes.

I think it is unfair to totally reject Bowser/Kirby discussion although I'm pretty sure Sveet was just saying he wasn't interested in discussing them himself (at least I hope so anyway).

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Kirby, Bowser and Pichu are all garbage characters, I don't know why you are struggling to understand that.

Up-tilt is pretty safe on shield since it has sufficient stun and pushes them back when it's spammed at range (can vary based on traction of course). It's fast enough that it will catch them if they drop shield.

We're seeing more and more the use of his dash attack at a high level too, it's actually viable to use.

Approaching SHFFL Fairs are also pretty good, they can be considered a "ground" approach

Also FH double bairs, advancing backwards across the stage with SH Auto-cancelled bairs, and multi-jump Fair and Bair spamming can be hard to get past.

And you accuse me of misinformation.

A lot of the things you mention are not real tactics, but they might work on people that dont expect them. When we're talking about matchups we have to assume both sides know what the other can do and is competent at stopping it.

I'm glad you are interested in this game, but being mean to people online gets you nowhere. Normally I would be happy to discuss, but I have better things to do than teach someone who is ungrateful.

 

[kingPiano]

Kirby, Bowser and Pichu are all garbage characters, I don't know why you are struggling to understand that.

I'm glad you are interested in this game, but being mean to people online gets you nowhere. Normally I would be happy to discuss, but I have better things to do than teach someone who is ungrateful.

Alright everything you quoted is misinformation?....geez. Guess all that "misinformation" worked on ORLY


Not really being mean, if bringing up relevant sets and counterpoints makes me mean then I guess you might need to grow a thicker skin.

I'm going to be brutally honest here again: "Normally I would be happy to discuss, but I have better things to do than teach someone who is ungrateful"

I'll give you a few glaring reasons why you wouldn't make a good teacher:

- Again you've been playing this long maining top tiers, 16,000 message later, yet you lose to a Bowser....A "garbage" character beat your top tiers? So what can you teach me about that match up teacher?

- You seem to have no problem speaking about characters you really aren't experienced with or know much about. How can you teach something you don't have much knowledge on or experience with. This is probably indicative of how you treat other subjects too (even the ones you think you know well), giving advice and insight into things you don't yet fully understand yourself.

- I don't main top tiers, so what could you teach me?

- You seem to have quite a problem with pride and stubbornness. I already said you'd probably beat me in a MM, yet you keep trying to beat your chest, basically saying "Money Match me bro" like a broken record. It's hypocrisy since beating me and my DK or Roy or Kirby (who I've had the least time with) won't prove much as you'd say yourself. If you weren't biased you'd blame the MU knowledge, skill level difference, and other johns even if I had beat you.

- From the start when I was simply asking about Kirby and then Bowser, you shut down "Don't want to discuss those garbage characters"....okay hadn't even been "mean" to you yet and you were already bowing out. You don't seem "happy to discuss" these characters at all. Perhaps you should be taught by DJN about Bowser and Triple R about Kirby before you "teach" anything to anyone.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Talking about the person at all is a logical fallacy. It has no place in discussion, and is downright rude.

Also, thanks for making tons of assumptions about me I'm ready to take your money whenever you get off the internet and decide to come to tourneys

 

[kingPiano]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Talking about the person at all is a logical fallacy. It has no place in discussion, and is downright rude.

Also, thanks for making tons of assumptions about me I'm ready to take your money whenever you get off the internet and decide to come to tourneys

Don't think you quite understand the meaning of that word, you've used it wrong twice so far.

A person's credibility is extremely relevant, otherwise it wouldn't be used as such a large deciding factor in courts of law and in pretty much every social setting or job interview.

Schools don't just hire people off the street cause they walk in and say "I know stuff, let me teach". You have to have the right temperament, credentials, schooling, and experience.If you walk into a school and expect to get hired with no resume and they turn you down, that's not ad hominem. Especially if in the past they show a tendency to teach the wrong information, not fact check, and teach subjects they aren't qualified to.

If in court of law a child molestor is having his past transgressions brought up to show that he has a track record of being a deviant, that ALSO is not ad hominem.

An objective point I made is that I don't play top tiers, so why would I want to get taught by a top tier main? That also is not ad hominem if you weren't aware. That's about as logically sound as a point can get.

 

[Comet7]

A person's credibility is extremely relevant, otherwise it wouldn't be used as such a large deciding factor in courts of law and in pretty much every social setting or job interview.

>lost to a bowser
>the bowser was dj nintendo
>dj nintendo definitely knows the MU way better than most people ever will at high level

i'm not sure how this impacts anybody's credibility at all. as far as this goes to say, nobody here has a right to say anything.

 

[Dolla Pills]

Child molesters really don't have much to do with smash.

Are Bowser and Kirby amongst the worst characters in the game? Yes.
Will better players using them beat worse players using better characters? Sometimes, but there are many variables to consider here

I don't really understand the argument here and it would be nice if the points could be stated without any personal attacks or irrelevant conversation about child molesters and the court of law.