2013 Community Tier List

[Snu?]

Haven't played in a Melee tournament in years (back when I played Yoshi and Zelda in 2009), but I've gotten much better since then. I play with a Canadian player, Tect, when we both find the time and he usually 2 stocks me. There isn't a lot of footage of him on Youtube, but I know he's taken sets off of Kage and other top Canadian players. He recently lost to Lord HDL at Apex in a 2-1 set.

1 Fox
2 Falco
3 Sheik

4 Marth
5 Peach
6 Jigglypuff
7 Captain Falcon

8 Ice Climbers
9 Doctor Mario
10 Samus
11 Ganondorf
12 Pikachu

13 Mario
14 Luigi
15 Link
16 Young Link

17 DK
18 Mewtwo
19 Yoshi
20 Mr. Game & Watch

21 Bowser
22 Zelda
23 Roy
24 Ness

25 Pichu
26 Kirby

Puff is a little overrated by the community due to Mango and Hbox. I think Jiggs should be bumped down a few spots. Other than that, this seems pretty justified.

 

[bubbaking]

I really like that tier list! any reasoning for Dk over the Links?

Well, IMO, they're really close in viability but DK isn't hardcore shut down by Falco like both Links are, and that's a very important Top Tier MU to not do so poorly in (although DK still loses solidly to Falco). DK has near 0-to-death combos for those times he can land a grab on the fast-fallers and he has nigh guaranteed KO set-ups on almost the rest of the cast. His mobility and DD are pretty good too, so his grab game isn't even that bad. I also feel that DK also does better in various other MUs, like Falcon (arguably the Links' worst MU), the Mario Bros (including Doc), and possibly Samus (better than YL does against her at least).

 

[JKJ]

I mained Luigi for the better part of my first year, and to be honest, All of his moves send you up save for his fair, bair, and sweetspotted dair. I could get combo's off by wavedashing into followups, but with good DI it's very hard for Luigi. As for approaches, if your opponent knows the matchup, you can get shut down fairly easily in the 15 blank frames dedicated to the wavedash.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Top

Fox
Falco
Sheik
Marth
Jigglypuff

High

Peach
Captain Falcon
Ice Climbers
Dr.Mario

Semi-High

Samus
Ganondorf
Mario
Pikachu
Donkey Kong

Mid

Luigi
Link
Mewtwo
Young Link
Yoshi
Zelda
Roy

Low

Mr.Game & Watch
Ness
Kirby
Bowser
Pichu

 

[Ballin]

I won a tournament at my University once. 20+ people =P
We mess around with a few local tournies... but i probably place somewhere in the middle... dunno exactly.
Went to POE 3 and SMYM 12, and got **** on.

People that could tell you about how much I raaape: Kels, CunningKitsune, Little England, Lanceindapants, Peef,

A
____
Sheik
Fox
Falco
Marth
Peach

B
____
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff
Ice Climbers
Dr. Mario
Ganondorf
Samus
Pikachu

C
____
Luigi
Link
Mario
Young Link
DK

D
____
Yoshi
Zelda
Mewtwo
Ness
Game and Watch
Roy
Pichu
Bowser
Kirby

Fox and Falco are godlike, but Sheik just has too many tools to not be #1.
Marth is like a Sheik without the safety net, with harder to land combos, and you have to work hard for your kills sometimes.
Peach is up there because she has a pretty even match up with all the top tiers except for Sheik.

I put puff down in B tier because the only notable one is Hbox. There are no other really top puff mains.
Falcon too punishable at high levels.

 

[Codi]

I'm a decently skilled player won a few locals and attend major tournaments and usually make it into bracket the most recent one being Apex 2013. In locals if I don't win I usually place top 3-5 and that's when hax djn g$ and a few other notable names show up. If you need more information then this please ask and I'll put it in!

A
____
Fox
Marth
Shiek
Falco
Peach

B
____
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon
Ice Climbers
Mario
Samus
Ganondorf
Pikachu

C
____
Luigi
Dr. Mario
Link
Young Link
DK

D
____
Mewtwo
Yoshi
Roy
Bowser
Zelda
Ness
Game and Watch
Pichu
Kirby

 

[Baxon]

LOL @ all the Guys/Haters who said Falco > Fox
you guys are dumb.
( i'm talking about ntsc, fox sucks in pal ^^')

 

[Diddy Kong]

I play PAL, and still think Fox is better. Even though one could argue Falco and Jiggz are 1 and 2 in PAL.

 

[Strong Badam]

LOL @ all the Guys/Haters who said Falco > Fox
you guys are dumb.

Holy crap! What a convincing argument. Changing my vote now. Thanks for enlightening me Baxon <3

 

[FourStar]

Fox is such a good overall character. i don't know why people think Falco is better. Falco has shorter recovery which sucks ass

 

[darkatma]

Discussion is moot. We all have a good understanding of what works and who's good by now, and slight place changes on a tier list won't affect anything.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Well falco has lasers which are likely the best projectile in the game. He also has a 1 frame move that lets him hit shields safely and there is an insane range of time for the player to hit confirm in (you can do an entire attack after your shine hits and still have plenty of time to follow up). His up and side b's are shorter than foxes, true, but he has one of the best double jumps in the game and he can shine stall which makes it one of the most versatile and hard to gimp recoveries in the game. His bair and utilt out prioritize nearly every move in the game if timed right and have very few frames to punish. Did I mention he has one of (if not the) best combo games out of any character which easily starts from his 1 frame anti-shield, anti-CC move.

 

[Purpletuce]

If you think of any reason why Falco could be considered the best character in the game, then you must not have been to a real tournament before. I consider Falco to be the best in the game, but I can at least understand why anybody would argue for anyone of the top 7 being the best in the game.

Also, this whole ranking thing where people describe their results seems pretty vague. The range between casual and Regional level players can't really be shown. Most people describe themselves relative to people you probably haven't heard of, and for most players to describe themselves in terms of people you know, it is usually two degrees out and doesn't really tell you anything. For example, if I say I think I'm around the same level as a guy in my region who has taken a friendly off Scar. that hardly tells you anything.

If you say how good you are relative to tournaments and your scene. Although if I say I get 7th at a state tourney, that would mean I'm a really great player if I'm from California, a pretty good player if I'm from Washington, an average player if I'm from Oregon, or a newer player if I'm from Idaho. With the expection of California, all of those regions have roughly the same entrants number (~20 for their monthlies).

If I talk about local tournaments, I've won a 20 man tournament, but everyone there sucked, so it wasn't like I actually won a 20 man tourney. If I talk PR, I probably wouldn't be top 20 in California, probably about 15 in WA, I'm around the bottom half of top 10 in Oregon, and would be a top player if I were from Idaho (I go evenish with their #1)

 

[BTmoney]

Discussion is moot. We all have a good understanding of what works and who's good by now, and slight place changes on a tier list won't affect anything.

I don't understand these comments at all. Not to be rude but if you don't want to to paricipate in the discussion, post a list, or if you think a new tier list is objectively useless (which it can't be) then don't post here.

Of course tier lists don't affect anything. Some people think they are interesting. I think what you said is pretty silly.

 

[omgwtfToph]

I particularly like the posts in this thread that are like "Here are my accomplishments in tournament. Oh and here is my haphazardly-thrown together tier list, so that it looks like I'm doing more than bragging for no reason."

 

[FourStar]

LOL all about the tier list from people with no experience! :D

 

[bubbaking]

One could argue it means exactly the opposite. Maybe more good players are playing fox, but maybe players are placing better with fox because they are playing a better character.


edit- not saying this is true, just pointing it out. everyone should make up their own mind

I think this should be worded a bit differently to be truly accurate or at least to refute the argument you were opposing. I would have said, "Foxes are becoming more common in tournament and one could argue that his popularity is what is causing him to net more top placements in tourneys, but maybe more good players are playing Fox simply because [they realize] he is a better character."

 

[FourStar]

Fox is beast. Now people realize that they want to see if they can get there chance of success with him. it was lik when people used marth becuz of ken

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I think this should be worded a bit differently to be truly accurate or at least to refute the argument you were opposing. I would have said, "Foxes are becoming more common in tournament and one could argue that his popularity is what is causing him to net more top placements in tourneys, but maybe more good players are playing Fox simply because [they realize] he is a better character."

I meant what I said. I do not mean to say that those players are necessarily consciously deciding to play fox because he is better, but rather they are deciding to play fox and are doing better.

I particularly like the posts in this thread that are like "Here are my accomplishments in tournament. Oh and here is my haphazardly-thrown together tier list, so that it looks like I'm doing more than bragging for no reason."

Or mine, I didn't even bother to post a list

 

[Strong Badam]

within the top 7 characters, character selection is rarely decided on which characters are better. especially when you consider that the vast majority of the community chose their mains when they had a poor understanding of the game.
and I've always been in the camp that feels that tournament results is a poor indicator of character strength. it's a decent general guideline to see trends and such, but people don't seem to realize that character selection is only one aspect of skill in this game. when Dr. Peepee 3-stock's Mew2King's Marth on Final Destination with Falco, that doesn't mean Falco beats Marth on that stage. it means PP beat M2K on that stage.

 

[Kimimaru]

when Dr. Peepee 3-stock's Mew2King's Marth on Final Destination with Falco, that doesn't mean Falco beats Marth on that stage. it means PP beat M2K on that stage.

I'm perfectly fine with that line of thought, but the only thing that irks me is how do you decide who beats who purely by theorycrafting? We can say anything in theory, but the only way to contradict it is to look at how or if it works/holds true.

 

[FourStar]

can we mutually agree pika has improved in the current metagame?

 

[hungrybox]

I'm hungrybox. I won a few tournaments here and there and my ness is cute.

Fox
Falco
Marth
Peach
Sheik
Falcon
Puff
ICs
Doc
Samus
Ganon
Pikachu
Luigi
Mario
DK
Young Link
Roy
Link
Zelda
Yoshi
Ness
Bowser
Mewtwo
G&W
Kirby
Pichu

 

[FourStar]

I'm hungrybox. I won a few tournaments here and there and my ness is cute.

Fox
Falco
Marth
Peach
Sheik
Falcon
Puff
ICs
Doc
Samus
Ganon
Pikachu
Luigi
Mario
DK
Young Link
Roy
Link
Zelda
Yoshi
Ness
Bowser
Mewtwo
G&W
Kirby
Pichu

wow as one of the best puff's u put her behind Falcon?

 

[Kosine]

fox
falco
sheik
jiggs
marth
peach
falcon
ICs
doc
samus
ganondorf
mario
luigi
pikachu
donkey kong
link
yoshi
zelda
young link
roy
game and watch
ness
mewtwo
bowser
pichu
kirby

 

[bubbaking]

If that's the case, then what business does anyone have trying to place Jiggs on a tier list? Literally no one other than Hbox (I guess one could argue Mango as well) knows that character extensively enough, which is why we don't see anyone else picking up Jiggs and doing well. We have no data. Going by results, Jiggs doesn't deserve to drop; she might even deserve to rise past one or both of the spacees. Hbox usually nets top 4 in any tournament he enters......if he doesn't just win it. Going by MUs, well, why are we going off of MUs when no one even really knows what Jiggs MUs truly looks like? Nobody can figure out exactly who beats Jiggs and who doesn't. It's just people's uneducated opinions that cause them to believe that Jiggs is worse than Sheik or Marth, I feel. There's only one Jiggs player who matters and he hasn't given any indication of Jiggs not being a top 3 character.

Hbox being the only notable Jiggs main brings up another problem with trying to place her on a tier list. We have no idea if she's being played optimally or not. We're assuming that Hbox's style of playing is the perfect style for Jiggs because he wins tournaments, but what if there's something better that he simply isn't doing. We'd never know because he doesn't do it and it would be a very long while before we found out because he is the only person playing Jiggs well. In a nutshell, we can't claim to really know anything about Jiggs aside from what we've seen, because no one else can pick up the character and do things with her.

within the top 7 characters, character selection is rarely decided on which characters are better. especially when you consider that the vast majority of the community chose their mains when they had a poor understanding of the game.
and I've always been in the camp that feels that tournament results is a poor indicator of character strength. it's a decent general guideline to see trends and such, but people don't seem to realize that character selection is only one aspect of skill in this game.

This topic was brought up on Smashmods and I quite thoroughly proved that there is a large portion of the community that dropped their old mains to pick up Fox (or other Top/High Tiers), and most of those players have been placing more highly ever since. This doesn't necessarily prove anything, but it does show a correlation between character selection and success and it also refutes the argument that "the vast majority of the community chose their mains when they had a poor understanding of the game."

 

[goateeguy]

wow as one of the best puff's u put her behind Falcon?

If anything, I find that people who play a certain character tend to rate them lower because they know their weaknesses better.

 

[Bones0]

If anything, I find that people who play a certain character tend to rate them lower because they know their weaknesses better.

In the same way, they also understand all of the little things that have to go right in order for them to completely destroy their opponent. Like I know as Falco, I have to approach almost perfectly or else I get grabbed and punished super hard, but my opponents obviously tend to notice the few times my approaches do hit and I get a huge combo from it.

 

[john!]

within the top 7 characters, character selection is rarely decided on which characters are better. especially when you consider that the vast majority of the community chose their mains when they had a poor understanding of the game.

so you think that new players understand that 7 characters are better than the others (hence their high popularity), yet they don't understand that fox and falco are better than falcon? why wouldn't they?

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

Falco
Fox
Sheik
Marth
Peach
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon
Ice Climbers
Dr. Mario
Samus
Ganondorf
Pikachu
Luigi
Mario
Donkey Kong
Link
Young Link
Yoshi
Roy
Zelda
Mr. Game & Watch
Bowser
Ness
Mewtwo
Kirby
Pichu

 

[Kink-Link5]

Placings: --

Fox
Falco
Sheik
Peach
Jigglypuff
Marth
Ice Climbers
Captain Falcon
Doctor Mario
Samus
Pikachu
Ganondorf
Luigi
Yoshi
Mario
Young Link
Link
Donkey Kong
Zelda
Mewtwo
Mr. Game and Watch
Roy
Ness
Pichu
Kirby
Bowser

 

[chenjesu]

Sheik
Fox
Falco
Peach
Jigglypuff
Marth
Falcon
Pikachu
Dr. Mario
Mario
Ice Climbers
Ganondorf
Samus
Link
Yoshi
Luigi
Donkey Kong
Young Link
Zelda
Mewtwo
Roy
Bowser
Pichu
Ness
Mr. Game and Watch
Kirby

I beat DP in friendlies once. I've been to ~10 sacramento area tournies (usually ~10-15 people) and place near the middle. Mooninite can vouch for how good I am at this game.

 

[kiw1]

^Ok on your PAL tier list.. how is Yoshi even lower placing then in the NTSC tier list....when Yoshi has nothing but buffs in PAL...

So confused...

well yoshi got only tweaked a bit in pal, i actually don't think that any lowtier change from NTSC -> pal makes any difference for the middleish-lower tiers.

maybe ganondorf, but i'm still thinking that ganon gets beaten by the same characters equally hard.

LOL @ all the Guys/Haters who said Falco > Fox
you guys are dumb.
( i'm talking about ntsc, fox sucks in pal ^^')

well, i explained as well, fox got bigger edges in some matchups but also got actual losing matchups, while falco goes everywhere even or has an advantage

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

It matters for those who had important glitches removed. Bowser doesn't have flame canceling, the Links can't hookshot glitch, and Yoshi was changed. But I'm pretty sure Yoshi was nerfed in PAL not buffed; I always remember it because it never made sense to me why HAL would nerf a character who was already so bad. His weight is reduced and his down air does less overall damage (apparently this was too strong).

The glitches were also fixed in NTSC versions after 1.0, but there is technically no official stance on which version must be played in tournament.

 

[Landry]

I remember hearing Leffen talk about how Yoshi is significantly better in PAL than NTSC.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Hmm okay I could be wrong. If someone has the actual change list, I would be very interested in reading in. Hearsay is poisonous to discussion.

 

[MountainGoat]

In PAL, Yoshi is heavier, his forward smash is more powerful and his down air does less damage. Not that different but definitely a slight buff.

 

[Bones0]

I've always assumed Yoshi's dair was nerfed because it made Master/Crazy Hand LOL-2-easy mode. I'm also pretty sure Kirby is the character that benefits the most from PAL. Iirc, his dash was sped up a significant amount.

 

[Purpletuce]

The biggest difference is Shiek can't chaingrab Yoshi in PAL.

 

[Kimimaru]

Here's the changelist:

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_regional_version_differences_(SSBM)

One thing that this list doesn't mention is that Yoshi's U-smash is 1% stronger as well, so it kills around 15% earlier. The weight difference doesn't seem like much but the multiplier on his superarmor makes his double jump break around 30% later, which is pretty significant in my opinion.