2.6 impressions so far

[MrWeavile]

Felt the exact same way going from 2.1 sonic to 2.5 sonic. Spent months and months practicing and mastering SideB WD and the Homing Attack Cancels. Only to have it taken away.

It honestly makes the character unplayable. Your hands will try to do the same **** but none of it will work.

This is probably terrible advice, but I'd recommend just not playing Sonic anymore. I had to learn a new character - went with wolf. He turned out to be a lot of fun and probably improved my overall smash game.

Careful- It's PM's vision of Wolf. The more people who play him, the bigger nerfs he'll get.

 

[Yeroc]

I'm with the people on Sonic. WD out of spin dash, I admit, was really good and he needed to be nerfed a little but not the way he was. They should have taken out the ability to just bust out a move on contact when you hit them with spin dash (besides air dodge/WD), lowered the range of homing attack, and nerfed his damage output and kill power but still maintained his WD game for his mobility. I'd much rather the great mobility over kill power.

We actually tried this approach for a while. It forced Sonic to camp more than he needed to in 2.5 in an effort to build damage and score KOs. He was a supremely annoying character to (attempt to) fight, and (if I may be so bold) had we gone through with the idea I'm absolutely sure people would have screamed bloody murder about his lack of KO power, as much if not more than they are complaining right now. Sonic still has ridiculous mobility. We just took away those options that made him impossible to fight honestly.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I'm with the people on Sonic. WD out of spin dash, I admit, was really good and he needed to be nerfed a little but not the way he was. They should have taken out the ability to just bust out a move on contact when you hit them with spin dash (besides air dodge/WD), lowered the range of homing attack, and nerfed his damage output and kill power but still maintained his WD game for his mobility. I'd much rather the great mobility over kill power.

I find myself playing my second way more now :/

As someone already said, not many characters have the luxury of being able to cancel their special moves freely, and even examples where they can like shine are really pushing the envelope. Take into consideration that maybe Sonic can be played without touching the B button (Sethlon did so and won quite a lot of tournaments in 2.5).

 

[whitmorethetoadpirate]

Sonic still has amazing mobility. o_O

It's like people forget about DD and moonwalking. Not only that, but you could even maybe make an argument to pivot with him sometimes due to the low recovery time it has. Maybe.

 

[EastCoastEddie]

Ugh, we really need a changelist with the patch next time! Its killing me listening to people theorize on what was changed. (but at the same time it is a little fun trying to figure out what has changed! haha)

That being said I'm enjoying 2.6 a lot so far! Having a blast trying to implement new grenade strats with Snake and trying to mix in up smash mind games.

Also Squirtle took some adjusting but I am loving him so far!

 

[Raccoon Chuck]

MetaKnight is a KO BEAST, but he's a balanced chaos. You guys implemented him perfectly! I can't wait to have a small smashfest with 2.6, the game feels more like Melee (engine-wise), and more complete with every update!

Has anybody formed a early ranking for 2.6 Link yet? The boomerang intrigues me.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I'll reiterate and expand on my thoughts on, in particular, MK's ability to fake with his empty jump.

Like Fox and Wolf, MK has a very short short hop and fast fall speed, along with a fast neutral aerial and fast ground game. These traits add up to make a character that is really great at jumping and either doing a fast attack, or faking to bait a shield or side step. He has a better dash than Wolf and still retains his awesome grab game from brawl, making slight delays and false pressure (empty hop grab, for example) really viable. He's a character that seems to be just seeping with delays alongside solid fundimentals that make for both a fun character, and a strong one as well. His specials feel a little lackluster, but they do what they're made to: follow up in specific situations to open up or set up further positional advantage. He's less Marth with wings and more Fox with a sword, and I think that is just great.

 

[Malart]

K I haven't mained Lucario since he first came out. Could you always on-hit-cancel his up-smash into a jump? Because that would have made u-smash>forward-b so much easier lol.

 

[standardtoaster]

yeah you could haha

 

[Malart]

Well wtf. I guess there was a reason I didn't stick with him. Didn't give the character the respect he deserved and test everything. Also I'm still developing my skills hardcore, and the magic series messed up my timing with every other character once I got used to it hehe.

 

[JOE!]

Careful- It's PM's vision of Wolf. The more people who play him, the bigger nerfs he'll get.

He may be a spacie, but he isn't a sacred one

 

[Shadic]

Nothing is sacred.

 

[JOE!]

It's about 8x better because I pictures Alakadoof saying that like, all foreboding-like.

 

[leelue]

[2.1 sonic] had a lot of stupid stuff he could do on a lot of stages (infinite walljumps)
That was Mario

plus he had fox upsmash ranking knockback and speed on most of his smash attacks.
Absolutely, demonstrably false.

When those things were taken away, people were claiming he was 'a sloppy unfinished character' because of it.
Up smash got stronger, forward smash was given an invincible fist.

Now in 2.5b at least, people forgot that he got nerfed and are still doing perfectly fine with him.
Nerfed?

Spoiler

Sonic's Back Air adjusted in knockback, and is stronger at lower %s
-Sonic's Up Air 2nd hit comes out slightly faster, sweetspot does a little more damage, and knockback slightly adjusted
-Sonic's Up Air autocancels much earlier and IASA is a bit earlier
-Sonic's Down Air initial hitbox spikes on both grounded and airborne opponents
-Sonic's Down Air no longer has disabled air mobility, and can be fastfalled to change the dive speed
-Sonic's Neutral B on-hit cancel is removed
-Sonic's Neutral B can be shortened by pressing Attack before he homes-in, this is called Blast Attack
-Sonic's Neutral B IASA is earlier
-Sonic's Neutral B hit animation is now reversible
-Sonic's Side B can no longer be jump canceled immediately, and the invincibility is completely gone
-Sonic's Side B initial hitbox sends outward, and halfway through aerial Side B it will send upwards
-Sonic's Side B can only be used once per recovery, he must land on the stage or grab the edge to regain Side B usage in the air
-Sonic's grounded Side B goes into a multi-hit somersault instead of a spindash
-Sonic's grounded Side B somersault is jump cancelable, and if you press Attack Sonic will perform a slide kick
-Sonic's grounded Side B somersault and slide kick are both edge cancelable
-Sonic's aerial Side B can grab ledges
-Sonic's Down B releases into spindash sooner
-Sonic's Down B can be B-reversed
-Sonic's Down B startup is faster

This is what happens when I leave? People start saying crazy things? (assuming I'm reading properly and you are talking about 2.1 sonic)

 

[ItalianStallion]

This is what happens when I leave? People start saying crazy things? (assuming I'm reading properly and you are talking about 2.1 sonic)

He put Sonic by mistake. He was talking about Ike.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I didnt notice any mario changes (which is a good thing, please keep him exactly how he is)

except maybe downtilt being a little faster but i could be imagining things

is mario still the same as 2.5?

as far as I can tell, his cape got fixed (that's FIXED, not nerfed). It used to have it's own knockback that stacked with the momentum you were already carrying, which made it so he could not only turn you around, but actually just throw you off stage with it, while leaving you helpless. It doesn't seem to do that anymore, it functions more like melee's cape, which was fair instead of insanely broken.

 

[Rick Rockmann]

Hold on, is the C-stick the ONLY way to do MK's quick out-of-teleport slash? That's kind of strange, and I don't really like the idea of attacks that it's impossible to do with just the face and shoulder buttons. I don't see why it couldn't also be mapped to Z, or even just A.

Also, come on. There's no reason for Ike's charged Quick Draw/instakill to still produce red fire. Eruption is blue, his final smash is blue, finish the job already!

 

[Jacob29]

Did they change wavedashing? I was getting pretty alright at it but now I can't do it at all with R.

 

[Revven]

Hold on, is the C-stick the ONLY way to do MK's quick out-of-teleport slash? That's kind of strange, and I don't really like the idea of attacks that it's impossible to do with just the face and shoulder buttons. I don't see why it couldn't also be mapped to Z, or even just A.

It's because it conveniently fixes the Infinite Dimensional Cape glitch that existed in Brawl where you could turn invisible forever by mashing down on the C-Stick.

 

[yahyakun]

you can do both types of mk's out of teleport slash holding b after downb. train a lil bit and get used to it, its way easier than using c stick.
/////////
as for my impressions, i like mk, its balanced.
i like link more, lucas, ddd, cf, and ganon, esp utilt.
i dislike they didnt add kirby and that wolf isnt still as strong he should be. wolf should be at falco's lvl or so.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I'm ok with Kirby being added last. If they do him up right, it makes sense for them to want everyone else to be finished first.

 

[yahyakun]

i want kirby so bad!
/////////////////
did u guyz knew that u can use Utaunt jump over ppl and make them go down like in brawl?
its a cool add, i like it xD

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Are you talking about footstooling? That's not new, that's been in since at least 2.5.

 

[standardtoaster]

Holding A or B does a full power slash at the end of the teleport (same input as brawl). Hitting the cstick during the teleport does the attack immediately but is a weaker attack.

 

[Rick Rockmann]

It's because it conveniently fixes the Infinite Dimensional Cape glitch that existed in Brawl where you could turn invisible forever by mashing down on the C-Stick.

But can't it be both, then? C-stick OR Z, or A, or even a literal translation, smash+A? Introducing a C-stick only move isn't cool.

 

[Strong Badam]

why not...? that seems like a fairly arbitrary distinction as to what is and isn't acceptable for an input. none of the MK players so far have minded it.

 

[Rick Rockmann]

Well, the actual combat controls for the whole SSB series work with combinations of just three buttons and an analog stick, which is really awesome and interesting from a design standpoint.
Introducing something fundamental to how a character plays that deviates from this design philosophy takes something important away from the game, in my opinion.

 

[Revven]

Well, the actual combat controls for the whole SSB series work with combinations of just three buttons and an analog stick, which is really awesome and interesting from a design standpoint.
Introducing something fundamental to how a character plays that deviates from this design philosophy takes something important away from the game, in my opinion.

Er, lots of special moves have their own quirks and special inputs that happen to make the move do something else. For instance, Diddy Kong's Side B: pressing A performs a kick, smashing vs tilting the stick when pressing Side B alters the distance, when you grab someone with the Side B you can press X/Y to jump off their head or press A to do an attack that sends the foe downwards. Given that example, MK's Instant DC isn't so foreign and doesn't break that design philosophy you're speaking about.

And while yes Diddy's Side B is a grab, there's other examples where special moves in Melee and Brawl have different functionality upon pressing a different button or smashing the stick a certain way. Making it so you have to press the C-Stick to perform something different for MK's DC thus isn't at all breaking the norms set by the game...

Think of it as a special Smash attack where the instant DC is a C-Sticked smash attack and the normal DC is a fully charged Smash attack. Makes sense to me!

 

[Rick Rockmann]

Er, lots of special moves have their own quirks and special inputs that happen to make the move do something else. For instance, Diddy Kong's Side B: pressing A performs a kick, smashing vs tilting the stick when pressing Side B alters the distance, when you grab someone with the Side B you can press X/Y to jump off their head or press A to do an attack that sends the foe downwards. Given that example, MK's Instant DC isn't so foreign and doesn't break that design philosophy you're speaking about.

And while yes Diddy's Side B is a grab, there's other examples where special moves in Melee and Brawl have different functionality upon pressing a different button or smashing the stick a certain way. Making it so you have to press the C-Stick to perform something different for MK's DC thus isn't at all breaking the norms set by the game...

But those attacks still use those three buttons and one analog stick. This one doesn't.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

But those attacks still use those three buttons and one analog stick. This one doesn't.

sounds to me like you're just mad that you don't ever use the c-stick, and now you have to. How about you just learn to play the game, and stop whining?

 

[9bit]

The reason it uses the C-stick is so it can have 3 different attacks. While in the Dimensional Cape, pressing up or down on the C-stick causes one type of slash, and pressing left or right causes 2 different slash attacks. Combine this with which direction you press on the control stick and which way you're facing and you have a lot of versatility in the move.

You should be used to using the C-stick anyway. It's incredible.

 

[standardtoaster]

There's only two attacks the DC can do. Cstick (any direction) does a weaker version and holding A or B does a strong version at the end.

 

[9bit]

I guess what I meant was the position or location of the slash.

Essentially, it does matter which way you smash the C-stick.


For instance, if you are facing to the RIGHT, hit down-b, and move the control stick LEFT and the c-stick RIGHT, you will move forward and slash backwards. If an opponent was right in front of you, you would teleport behind them and slash their back.

If you face LEFT and hit the control stick RIGHT and the c-stick LEFT, you would do the opposite: teleport left and slash to the right.

If you down-b in place and hit c-stick left, you will slash a bit behind you. If you c-stick right you will move forward and slash. And c-stick up or down would keep you in place and slash.

 

[Minor Pandemic]

Hopefully this is an alright place to ask since there seem to be an okay number of PMBR present:

Was the point in Wolf's Blaster during which you can air dodge made later in the animation? IIRC, you could air dodge as soon as the projectile came out on frame 15 in demo 2.5b. It feels like I have to wait longer in 2.6, such that I'm finding myself unable to waveland a SHL. Can I still waveland with proper timing?

 

[Mithost]

This is what happens when I leave? People start saying crazy things? (assuming I'm reading properly and you are talking about 2.1 sonic)

I was talking about Ike, not sonic.

 

[leelue]

OH thank goodness I thought there was crack in the water near you

sounds to me like you're just mad that you don't ever use the c-stick, and now you have to. How about you just learn to play the game, and stop whining?

It actually sounds like a legitimate concern, unless it works fine with B sticking or tilt sticking. Then I got nothin

 

[SpiderMad]

what are you noobs talking about I can't understand

 

[Nausicaa]

Edit: Mild essay, but nothing big.
/Warning.
lol





First impressions thread, figured I'd post.
Haven't read much, but checked out a few threads before downloading. Things like 'Prepare Yourself' I wouldn't have found without reading it.
That's classy stuff PMBR.

Missed the smash-fest last night, made Kale Chips in the other room for everyone (hundreds of them all day omg) and after playing, I can't wait to have another smash-fest. haha

Screwed around with every character for about 10 minutes each last night, and it feels good.

Notable things I really like.
Maybe it's just because I didn't play/see Smash for almost (over maybe?) a month, so it's placebo, but it definitely feels smooth and solid. As if the attacks hit 'harder' and actually have more 'thud' to them in this patch. A responsive feel in it too, and accurate.

Overall the edits done to the existing characters are taking that all-mighty turn for the better that everything 'in development' does. The elimination of never-bad/all-encompassing tools, turning them into what they're there for in the first place, but giving them some dynamics to what it's 'supposed' to mostly do (the intention in the first place).

Character things I really like.
Questions in Red. (just curious about PMBR decisions/thoughts)

Bowser
What is the PMBR consensus on getting the Melee-esque Down-B horizontal aerial momentum in the game?

Spoiler

Basically his changes seem to give him some of that 'lessening the universal-ishness' of his 'stuff' that I mentioned. The weakening/strengthening of things to give dynamics. Great work.

Charizard
What is the PMBR reasoning on removing the Jumps after Gliding?

Spoiler

The no jumps after Glide thing is kind of weird. It made a great stall/tool for him in a lot of areas, and now he's more limited. Interesting choice to do this, would like to know what the reasoning was.

Diddy

Spoiler

Good change to Dash-Attack. If Side-B was like this in 2.5b, I would've been satisfied, and changing FROM this TO that would've made me confused. I like the change, it's pretty dramatic (everything about it) but I won't be surprised if it gets tweaked back a little bit again.

G&W
lol sweet
Ike

Spoiler

Really like this stuff. D-Air/N-air feel proper now. Playing Ike makes me feel like there was an 'engine change' more than anyone else. He feels better than usual, but again this might be placebo because I hadn't played in a month+

Ivysaur

Spoiler

Great overall re-work on tools and flow of the character. D-Smash, N-air, and Synthesis all stood out for me. Good mix of hilarious tools that seem like they'll be pretty bread-and-butter to my game, and even chain into each-other as an effective option.

Link

Spoiler

That boomerang was a funny thing to use for the first time. After reading the update-thing on the site, I just jumped right into a combo and did some crazy things with the throws, rang, Z-air, seeing them for the first time as I went with it.
Really great tools for exactly what the update 'write-up' was talking about. Even with literally 0 preparation for what's about to happen. Awesome.
F-tilt is still my favorite move with him (and TL), and maybe it's placebo again, but I feel it gets better EVERY TIME I USE IT! (and every patch)

Lucas

Spoiler

I loved the 2.5 B-air, a lot, but it wasn't a core tool for him and I was likely a serious minority there. These changes are key aerials now, and F-air is more solid it seems, better grab duration too I think.
I like it. My game with him will be less centralized around WD F-tilt/DD Grab/AD Snake stuff for sure.

Luigi
Up-B feels weird, but the character is so that's ok.
Mario
I read the Cape is more Melee-ish and less silly. Cool.
Pika
What's the PMBR consensus on returning Melee Up-B familiarity to him?

Spoiler

Mostly I'm just curious about the Up-B lacking a change. It seems to be a 'hot-topic' among common Pika forums, yet it doesn't 'seem' to be getting attention. At least not from behind the closed doors.
Nice effects, hits feel good, someone really wants F-air to be core-Pika game.
Or should I say MARTH/DEDEDE with that Grab.......................

Pit

Spoiler

Setting up Up-B's Out of Shield used to be one of my favorite (if not my MOST favorite) things to do with Pit. Now it's not nearly and interesting, but it's definitely better. A lot better, awesome.

ROB

Spoiler

Same as Pit's grounded Up-B, but with B-air. It's still my favorite move with him, but I liked it more before. Much better now, just not as 'cool' now.
Very interesting changes overall to him. Seems like more emphasis on HOW you use what he has, rather than using WHAT he has at the right time regarding the mobility-game. AKA dynamics. I like it.

Sheik/Zelda

Spoiler

Feels good. Needles instant cancel or something? So fast, awesome.
Good death kick stuff there, and overall tweaks to normals.

Sonic

Spoiler

I really like this Sonic. He was a good example of the extreme (like Bowser) about trying to add too many cool things (gimmicks almost) to a character because 'we can' and he's finally becoming a 'character FIRST', with cool things added to him. Limiting the silliness brings out the highlights.
Love the more neutralizing of his mobility, less linearity, while still keeping him to the end of the spectrum. This is my favorite Sonic for sure, and would be happy with him as he is now, as I can tell I'll have to work for what I get, but it's totally get-able because of using speed and precision. Exactly what I want from speed-based game-play.

Squirtle
What's the PMBR consensus on Up-B changes?

Spoiler

The Up-B change feels really awkward, but I'll get used to it. Was it an SDI reason to change or what? I loved the move, but I'll be using it a LOT less now.
My game with him will be a LOT less centralizing. Used to be a game of suffocatingly forcing people off-stage with F-air and WD F-tilt pushing. Now, with solid D-tilt(s), a beefy U-air, etc, he has some really functional and effective dynamics and options.
Little sad on the F-tilt, as it was borderline silly and loved it for that, but this is a much more dynamic and non-linear version, since it can have inconsistencies on quick pokes with it that actually change the out-come, rather than the target just flying off-stage again from it every time regardless of events or actions (or whatever they're doing since it's so fast and easy to connect). Un-breaking something that was secretly probably broken, good work.

TL

Spoiler

He has my fave auto-chain in the game. F-tilt > Grab > F-tilt > etc at the proper %. So good, and more in-tact it seems (maybe placebo?), but not as broken as 2.1, which is very good.
Up-B is... cool.

Wario

Spoiler

Brilliant Side-B change.
That is all.

ZSS

Spoiler

Grabs are better, and I already spammed them 'too much' for my own good. This is cruel.
Up-B is... cool.

Wolf, Snake, Marth, Ness, Peach, Falcon, DK, Falco, Fox, Lucario, Jiggs
Feels good, they're cool.
Dedede

Spoiler

Up-B is... cool... but I 'still' think he's a little too silly/linear/not gonna last as he is...
Unless...
THAT N-AIR!!!

Finally

Metaknight
Playing him for the first time felt awkward. Then I realized I was playing as if he translated from Brawl, and that I should be playing him like a different Metaknight.
The Metaknight I saw updated on the DOJO web-site 5 years ago, that was the Metaknight I was playing. The one I hoped for and was stoked to play.
Then it clicked properly.
This Metaknight is not at all what I expected, but it's almost as if this is the Metaknight I wanted all along.

Spoiler

D-tilt and Grab (B-throw) were the first 2 things I did with the character, and again, little did I know that after checking everything else out, those 2 would be the CORE of my game with him.
I thought he was going to be that good everywhere else too (awesome) but this is good to. haha
It took a bit to get a hang of all the Down-B movement and direction facing slashes. It'll take a while, but I like it. It's really unique, and makes a fun challenge in something that I'm expecting to have as a fundamental part of my game-play with him. A good solid foundation of tools in that kit, this looks like it'll be a fun one.
That D-tilt... my whole game is gonna be D-tilt-focused. LOL

I never would've guessed that half a decade ago, and up until now, I've spent many hundreds of dollars on Wii's and Disk's, to play a long sought-after, community fan-base made, classily managed, modifiable version of Smash in 2013...
G
G
R
E

 

[cmart]

I can answer your Bowser and Squirtle questions.

For Bowser's down B - we actually ported melee's drift physics a long time ago, probably pre-demo 2. If it feels different, it's probably a placebo effect or due to Bowser's larger size.

For Squirtle's up B - The 2.5 version of this move had kinda just evolved from the brawl move and become a mess of huge asymmetrical hitboxes with varying amounts of possible SDI and a lol-huge ending hitbox. We'd kinda been piling more wood onto a janky truckbed, and decided it was time to take all that crud off and look at what we were covering up. This led to the current iteration of up B, which has a noticeable startup "tell", moves faster, and has more sensible hitbox coverage centered on Squirtle rather than way out in front of him. Landing the final hit is now more up to Squirtle's positioning and ability to use the move rather than his opponent's SDI as well. In short we're more satisfied with this new up B from both a design and practical standpoint.

 

[SpiderMad]

I never would've guessed that half a decade ago, and up until now, I've spent many hundreds of dollars on Wii's and Disk's, to play a long sought-after, community fan-base made, classily managed, modifiable version of Smash in 2013...

You mean attending tournaments? Or you bought multiple Wiis?