Official 1.1.6 Patch Notes/Patch Discussion

[sirchadakiss18]

https://vid.me/UBoA

 

[JAZZ_]

I think with limitations sparks the most creative solutions. People are just going to have to dig deeper to find new things for bayo to do. Smash is a game that rewards adaptability in battle, if bayo players refuse to adapt to these changes than I'm afraid theyre missing the point. She's not worthless, its just time to get creative.

 

[Dr.Megaman]

It is very different to change a move to get a different outcome or get better tools when you had bad tools before. This patch is a clear destruction on the characters play style. They removed 70% of her combos and got nothing in return... Not even less landing lag on her moves or reduce the start up lag on her jabs to counter her very bad neutral game.

It's like a hand or feet ambulation and ask to get good at a sport the way you were before your accident. This patch shows that Sakurai was correct when he said the game did not need any balance patches after 1.4.

The balance team are not working to balance the game properly rather than react to public outcry of casual scrubs with a social network accounts wrecking havoc because they want to win without trying.

I play Bayonetta and I will not stop playing her even after the patch, the thing is I wanted to participate at EVO next year, training real hard every day with her and now all my hard work go to waste because of internet outcry mob mentality.

I wanted to play competitively with Bayonetta, I loved her play style, her combos, she added new addition to Smash Bros. gameplay. I played Ike before her a character that was destroyed when played against Sheik, Zero Suit because of his bad physics and recovery, Bayonetta balanced that and felt great to play.

Bayonetta is slow, has terrible neutral game, a glouton for punishment against floatty grap characters but her mix up/punish game was great. Now they removed the mix up-combo game and we got a 3d model represent Bayonetta in Smash.

Because ZeRo, Spanish Inquisition and 8 people at Russia spread the poison and reel up all the scrubs that could not understand Bayonetta's match up. I am done with competitive smash. If Nintendo are prone to idiots that cry at social media because they are not good at smash then I am not going to support this mentality.

I said my piece when the Spanish people started the debate only one month after the release of Bayonetta crying to ban her because in their scene are a minority of people who do not like the character, that if this mentality of nerfs or bans prevails against hard work and practice I would stop playing smash competitively.

They won, in this day an age hard work does not pay off, next time I want something to happen I go cry on facebook and twitter or reddit maybe it is better than busting my *** training, experimenting, losing sleep with my mates playing till dawn to be better players.

I will try to get gud... At ******** on the internet.

If you can't simply just try and find more combos, exploits, and learn more of your match ups, then you can't survive this game's meta and have NO chances of even getting far at EVO.

 

[Bowserboy3]

https://vid.me/UBoA

1) This has already been posted.
2) The game is at a quarter speed, so that type of SDI from a human is impossible, let alone the human actually SDI'ing on the first few frames of being hit.

 

[Meistermayo]

Revisions.

For ds specifically?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

https://vid.me/UBoA lol now this is a gutted move, what is the point of the move now

I don't see that level of SDI happening consistently.

 

[SM Mystic]

There may be more than just Bayonetta nerfs. Just saying, you all should know how Nintendo works.

 

[SynergySSB]

wow the witch twist nerf is severe

 

[GeneralLedge]

There may be more than just Bayonetta nerfs. Just saying, you all should know how Nintendo works.

We can't really be hyped for what we don't know.

 

[DizzyChicks]

It's always the same. Character gets nerfed, people will claim the character is no longer good and gonna drop to mid tier or something, a week or two later, still very clearly a solid character. It's happened so many times now, most notably with Sheik and Diddy Kong, I doubt this'll be very different. In any case, let's see with an open mind how the changes will affect the character in practice before drawing any hard conclusions.

A character doesn't have to be top tier to be a fine character, you know.

That only happened with shiek, diddy, and cloud.

 

[SynergySSB]

Personally, This patch was much needed for bayonetta nerfs and hopefully buffs for those who need it. But this is almost to much. I do agree that they needed to make it so she cannot 0 to death you so easily but everything else besides witch twist and afterburner kick I don't agree with.

 

[Deleted member]

Here's my theory on why the balancing team hasn't buffed Jigglypuff: They're afraid of letting anything combo into rest. They could still give her a kill throw though? Or make her jabs better? Or adjust some angles/knockback? Never mind, there's probably a million ways to balance her without letting much combo into rest, at least at high percents. Either it's that, or online jigglypuffs are too good. Who knows...maybe they just don't care.
Dedede: They think he's fine with the online match data collected, meaning he's good at what they consider to be mid-level play.
Palutena: They think she'll be busted with customs and an actual good overall moveset combined. She was built with customs in mind, after all.

Y'all need to start doing a lot worse in for glory if you want your characters to be seen as bad enough to warrant buffs, I guess...

 

[jmjb]

lol so can we name this patch like.. burn the witch? lmao

 

[Mediocre Dunce]

Here's my theory on why the balancing team hasn't buffed Jigglypuff: They're afraid of letting anything combo into rest. They could still give her a kill throw though? Or make her jabs better? Or adjust some angles/knockback? Never mind, there's probably a million ways to balance her without letting much combo into rest, at least at high percents. Either it's that, or online jigglypuffs are too good. Who knows...maybe they just don't care.
Dedede: They think he's fine with the online match data collected, meaning he's good at what they consider to be mid-level play.
Palutena: They think she'll be busted with customs and an actual good overall moveset combined. She was built with customs in mind, after all.

Y'all need to start doing a lot worse in for glory if you want your characters to be seen as bad enough to warrant buffs, I guess...

Yeah I have no idea what they are doing with Dedede. Pretty sure he's gotten literally ZERO buffs since the start of the game.

 

[Quickhero]

No, she wasn't toxic, she was just questionably unbalanced. The real toxicity came from immediate attempted bans, player shaming, and insults that were flung both ways in debate. Thankfully that should all be over so we can all go back to complaining about Mewtwo's fair or something dumb like that.

Bayonetta was UNQUESTIONALLY unbalanced if she can completely dominate from the start of the match and the only way to beat her is a read of one of at least 4 options every time she does any move. Immediate attempted bans is not toxic at all if people who use it day one go from zero to hero there is a freaking problem and it's perfectly reasonable.

Obviously mudslinging is toxic and should be refrained but don't equate the two.

 

[Blazinglight]

At first, i didn't think there was anything wrong with bayonetta. But today, i looked up a couple videos about her "0-death" combos, and YIKES! I was so lucky that i never had to deal with that on FG.

However, while i am slightly dissappointed that no one else is getting buffed, the fact that many characters didn't get any changes is a sign to me that the dev team thinks that they are perfectly fine.

 

[AkiraGr]

So... Bayonetta's players are whining instead of adapting ? Ironic

Also, stop saying that Bayonetta is destroyed or anything, the patch isn't release yet... Bayonetta's players will probably find new combos/set-ups.

I never said we wouldn't adapt, but the nerf mentality and the bias against a character because most of the trolls were parroting what ZeRo said, which by the way since Bayonetta came out he never participated in a tournament pretending his injured says a lot about a minority thats get loud on social media asking for nerfs when they do not have the skill to adapt themselves.

I played Ike since day one in smash 4. The character was overwhelmed by Sheik, Zero Suit, and other speedy characters with great frametrap game. I never complaint and asked for nerfs online, I cared for balance patches that gives more buffs on Ike to counter some instances like the Ragnel hit box to get bigger and his throws to combo. I was glad the balance team fix that in a sensible manner.

Sheik got nerfs on her option kills, her speed, her neutral game and her frame data never got severely nerfed destroying her way of playing. She still is a combo fair freak with top tier neutral game, this never changed and I wouldn't want it to changed because it would throw her play style out the window. They could balance her other wise adding more landing lag frames on the moves, so not all aerials auto cancel to an insane speedy recovery that goes unpunished.

In Bayonetta's case they destroyed the only good thing her character provided her combos. I play with the best players in Greek Smash scene and they never got problem dealing with my Bayonetta, I even provided them with info of how they could get better and avoid most of her stuff so I could become even better. Greninja is my friends main and in our match ups he always won because of specific gimmicks Greninja had to avoid Bayonetta's combos like fspecial, incredible speed and great set ups and frame traps he does. Now with this nerfs on Bayonetta when I had 50/50 chance to land a combo and punish a mistake I would be limiting myself to use one or two hits. Also Bayonetta is a very light character she dies with a charged smash at 89%, has tremendous bad frame data, awful ending lag if she misses a combo and her Smashes are slow with low priority as a disjoint attack.

If you do not know the meta and you lose to a Bayonetta and asking for nerfs you are clearly a bad player. Nerf mentality is idiotic and never push the meta of smash in right competitive path. The game has 58 characters and people are asking for nerfs after 3 months of the release of Bayonetta... 3 MONTHS because of public outcry from a minority.

If you can't simply just try and find more combos, exploits, and learn more of your match ups, then you can't survive this game's meta and have NO chances of even getting far at EVO.

She wasn't balanced so you must explore other methods of play for Bayonetta, she was gutted. Lost her gimmick, her combos, she cannot play a neutral game, her frame data are slow with big ending lad, most of her moves are punishable by throws, after the nerf she is more unsafe with her faster move dtilt got another 2 frames of ending lag which was at 7 frames, limiting her combos even more, dabk got destroyed as an approach tool good luck trying to approach heavy projectile characters and witch twist is SDIed by slowpokes now.

Also the patch shows the bias against the character which is the only character that got nerfed plus the 3 month period was very early to pass judgment for this kind of a move by the balance team.

The crybabes have won, the trolls are now our new meta overlords. If you enjoy this good for you, I choose to move on from this game competitive scene. I will find some other game to play.

 

[Eureka]

The reason Jigglypuff or the other lower teirs don't get any buffs, is because Sakurai's "Vision" lives on the moral standard that, Some characters have to be bad, because if they buffed bad characters and made everyone good, the game, to him, wouldn't be fun. I guess i could Kinda understand to some extent. I could grab you the quote, but that be a little while. You can find it in one of his Interviews.

That's not quite right. What Sakurai said that if you make everyone the same for the sake of balance it wouldn't be fun. For example, he could make every character minor variations on Mario, and that game would be extremely balanced, but it wouldn't be fun. Every other character has gotten some sort of buff or nerf since the game came out. Heck even the Miis got buffs, and they were made just so people could fool around by adding anyone they wanted into the game to fight. The fact that Jiggs is the only exception is a bit too conspicuous.

 

[Flamegeyser]

I've got the perfect way to balance bayo guys hear me out:
Give her a combo throw. Doesn't have to have kill confirms, but it'll let us rack up percent, and give us a viable neutral mixup.

On another note, even if that video is 1/4th speed, there are many situations in which WTw is the only thing that you can even hit with, so people can react real easy anyways, and given how we could do it when the SDI multiplier was half of what it is now, it won't be that hard.

And on a final note, WHAT THE HELL DOES CHANGING WTW2'S KBG EVEN MEAN?

 

[Buddhahobo]

Bayonetta was UNQUESTIONALLY unbalanced if she can completely dominate from the start of the match and the only way to beat her is a read of one of at least 4 options every time she does any move. Immediate attempted bans is not toxic at all if people who use it day one go from zero to hero there is a freaking problem and it's perfectly reasonable..

Well, good thing she never did that then.

 

[itsmeMOB]

She will most likely be in the lower high tier spectrum at WORST now AKA still a good character. People seem to forget that a huge chunk of people who play this game have their character be a measly mid/low tier and still put in the work... I wonder how they feel when they see people complain about their character no longer being TOP top tier? put in the work mang, if you love Bayo you should just do your best to keep pushing her forwards.

She's not going to be low-mid tier like people have been really exaggerating, she still has really dumb stuff (like every top tier has) that will keep her in the high tiers. Her combo game has been severely changed and that's a shame because she is a combo character. A lot of her tools being changed makes it harder to land the aerial combos that she was designed for.

 

[Buddhahobo]

She's not going to be low-mid tier like people have been really exaggerating, she still has really dumb stuff (like every top tier has) that will keep her in the high tiers.

Like what dumb stuff, though?

A character built around aerial combos losing her aerial combos sounds pretty significant, especially when nothing was added to compensate.

 

[shininimuss]

long story short, basically the patch is up on the nintendo update servers, so you can access it, but not through a wii u, as they can't download it yet.

so how does one access it?

 

[KayJay]

so how does one access it?

Downloading into a PC via tools and injecting the patch to the wii U through softhack.

 

[iLink]

Looks like Bayonetta's gameplan is going to revolve around actually landing witch time now.

 

[Ulk]

I really don't see much keeping Bayonetta up in the higher tiers either to be frank. It honestly currently looks like almost every combo move was made very unviable, and she looks more like a Hit & Run character with these new changes than a combo fighter. She doesn't really have much except for her combo game. Her frame data is bad, her grab game is bad, her ground game is bad, her air game really isn't too impressive without the combo moves, she is not a good killer, her damage output will decrease heavily after her combo potential has decreased so much, she does still have a good recovery and the absolute best counter. I don't really see much potential for her to stay up there with just that.

Though of course that's just based on what I have seen by now. Who knows, maybe it's not half as bad as it looks, and maybe there are combos that are still viable.

 

[Buddhahobo]

Looks like Bayonetta's gameplan is going to revolve around actually landing witch time now.

That's rather like Wario having to revolve around landing his wafts to do anything meaningful.

To again emphasize to the people calling it that, Witch Time shouldn't be considered a counter. You can't spam Witch Time.

 

[Grandpa Knowledge]

I hope you are satisfied, she already a weak neutral

 

[CaP_Omega]

Well, good thing she never did that then.

Heelslide, SH ABK, FH downward ABK and B-air have all been shown to be safely mixed in neutral at local, regional and national tournaments, with three of those moves leading into high damage combos. Needless to say, it was near impossible to punish any of these moves and be rewarded an opportunity to tack on a decent amount of damage, unless you were willing to take around 40% or risk losing a stock.
All that's seemingly changed about her neutral at this point is that she just has to work a little harder to keep her opponent in the air, and her combos can be SDI'd out of more reliably. What it boils down to now is how people use her tools and not which ones to use based on DI.

 

[Flawed]

I think a lot of you are forgetting what made bayonetta powerful.

-Hard to DI combos
-Decent damage
-Good knock back /kill potential on certain moves
-Easy to do combos
-Argueably average neutral game dtilt/ bair/ occasional Witch twist/Heel kick.
-Good edge guards with Witch twist and nair.


On paper, it looks really bad. Combos easier to get out of , Hitboxes smaller so they are harder to do, a slowing of a move critical to her neutral game, and less damage.

What does she have left? A safe back air? A ABK into a up air? The character lost a lot of its unique and cool functions, and unfortunately its not a limitless character that has other means of doing amazing things like Diddy or Cloud.

Witch Twist and ABK were a giant part of the character.

And anyone saying adapt should really be silent after all of the amazing cries we heard before- just let the bayos deal with it themselves.

Personally that dtilt nerf, is what scared me the most.

 

[Buddhahobo]

Heelslide, SH ABK, FH downward ABK and B-air have all been shown to be safely mixed in neutral at local, regional and national tournaments, with three of those moves leading into high damage combos. Needless to say, it was near impossible to punish any of these moves and be rewarded an opportunity to tack on a decent amount of damage, unless you were willing to take around 40% or risk losing a stock.

His assertion was Bayonetta completely dominated the metagame and controlled the flow of the battle to the point where beating her was a matter of luck.

She came out in the beginning of Feburary. It is now May 19th. When in that three and a half month period did she dominate the meta?

She also typically controlled the flow of battle because the opponent would give it to her on a silver platter. How she could control the match better than Sheik with worst tools at her disposal is beyond me.

Very few people bothered to learn how heelslide actually worked.

The downward dive kick was by far her most important move and the one most in need of developer intervention. Making it seemingly useless, however...

 

[S_B]

Again folks, they nerfed Diddy pretty badly, then buffed him later to compensate.

They'd rather overreact and nerf too hard at first when a character is perceived as very OP and then slowly buff back up later.

It's a good strategy, TBH.

 

[<Chewy>]

Even though I used to main Bayonetta, i'm not that upset. I personally think that this nerf is bigger than the Sheik or Diddy nerf. But that's just my opinion. Just so mad that there was no buff for puff....

 

[KayJay]

I think a lot of you are forgetting what made bayonetta powerful.

-Hard to DI combos
-Decent damage
-Good knock back /kill potential on certain moves
-Easy to do combos
-Argueably average neutral game dtilt/ bair/ occasional Witch twist/Heel kick.
-Good edge guards with Witch twist and nair.


On paper, it looks really bad. Combos easier to get out of , Hitboxes smaller so they are harder to do, a slowing of a move critical to her neutral game, and less damage.

What does she have left? A safe back air? A ABK into a up air? The character lost a lot of its unique and cool functions, and unfortunately its not a limitless character that has other means of doing amazing things like Diddy or Cloud.

Witch Twist and ABK were a giant part of the character.

And anyone saying adapt should really be silent after all of the amazing cries we heard before- just let the bayos deal with it themselves.

Personally that dtilt nerf, is what scared me the most.

Adapt.

 

[Ninety]

most of the trolls were parroting what ZeRo said, which by the way since Bayonetta came out he never participated in a tournament pretending his injured says a lot about a minority

Stopped reading there. That's a very **** ish thing to imply, dude. The man posted a video and thorough details of his injury, and you say he was faking it because he was afraid to fight a Bayonetta? Not only is that super rude, it's stupid.

 

[Meshima]

shrooby
Her d-tilt FAF would be 26 -> 27 due to her FSM, please fix OP.

 

[shininimuss]

Downloading into a PC via tools and injecting the patch to the wii U through softhack.

so they don't download the data to wii u first then move it to pc, instead they download it directly to pc first?

Edit: nvm

 

[S_B]

I hope you are satisfied, she already a weak neutral

This raises another point that needs to be addressed (not trying to single you out here, but this does raise the point)...

When people talk about Bayo's weaknesses, we need to be talking about REAL weaknesses exploitable by the majority of the roster, not just weaknesses that are exploitable by S tier characters (making a character lighter is an attractive option because it makes them UNIVERSALLY easier to defeat for the whole roster).

And we also need to consider just how badly Bayo murdered certain characters, such as heavyweights who were stupidly easy for her to carry off the top of the screen due to their size, making it nigh-impossible to DI out of the combo.

The end goal of SSB4's balancing will be to place everyone at C-tier. If other characters have yet to receive those nerfs, I have faith that it's a temporary situation.

 

[Vipermoon]

And on a final note, WHAT THE HELL DOES CHANGING WTW2'S KBG EVEN MEAN?

+1

Someone considered knowledgeable in the SB community please answer this. It really doesn't make sense.

 

[Lavani]

It helps it true combo into uair, which was probably the intended compensation buff out of this changelist.

I think SDIing away puts you outside of uair range anyway though.