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Official 1.1.6 Patch Notes/Patch Discussion

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OFY

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What is your option if you liked bayonetta design, but now she is totally different design, what is he liked that bayo was combo character but now she is a bait and punish character, that bayo will never return, imagine if Samus design was completely changed in one patch, she could became better or worse, but now you dont like how she plays, because say she is now plays like :4dedede: or :4sheik:, would you still like to play as her?? If the nerf are true then she is not the same character but "worse", she is not longer the same character you liked, i dont know but i would be angry if my favorite character design changed to something that i dont like, is not because she is no longer top tier, but because she is not longer Bayo, someone of you fail to see that.
A good rule of thumb with almost all DLC fighting game characters, don't fully invest all your time into them since they will change in an updated game. Option for bayo players now would be to adapt or switch, sucks but thats usually how fighting games go.
 

rm88

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Why did you fear that it would never happen with all of the outcry?
Mostly because I'm not sure they'll keep patching the game for much longer. And seeing how they apparently believe only Bayo needed some changes, I don't see the game getting many more patches.
 

OAM

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I'm saving final judgment personally for when the patch hits. No use in complaining about the extent of Bayo nerfs until the patch actually is there on my console.
 

OFY

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Mostly because I'm not sure they'll keep patching the game for much longer. And seeing how they apparently believe only Bayo needed some changes, I don't see the game getting many more patches.
I remember that Sakurai mentioned that DLC was going to end with the release of corrin and Bayonetta, but was there also a source that patches would also come to an end with those two characters being released? Can't find a source for it.
 

Buddhahobo

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ery few times have I seen someone come out on top against a good Bayonetta
That's an unfair comparison, though.

You're effectively stating Bayonetta players are not allowed to do well, as if you're holding it against (for example) players like 9B or Pink Fresh from doing well at any tournament.

and I have watched many Finals matches from VGBootcamp, MVG, Tourney Locator, Geeky Goon Squad and Unrivaled Tournaments in which Bayonetta has dominated. Very few times have I seen someone come out on top against a good Bayonetta, and none of those times have I not seen them struggle harshly.
And I've tracked down and watched a very good amount of those tournaments. I've looked at what worked and what didn't work. I looked at who was actually playing the character, and who they were playing against.

Do you know how many people thought "playing it safe" meant staying on the complete opposite side of the stage and rush in blindly when they thought they could get something done, thus hilariously telegraphing their moves to a character with a counter (or whatever one wants to call Witch Time. Certainly I'd place it closer to Wario's waft, especially now)? How many people, even in GFs, continually air dodged into Bayonetta for a free nair or something of the sort and didn't expect to be punished for something so obvious? How many people actually bothered to learn how Bayonetta's one (of out only a few) approaching option in side b on the ground actually worked? Or, as I typically saw as a good case stuky (specifically in Portugal), a Captain Falcon player who kept uairing twice to sweet spot knee then gets upset when the Bayonetta player takes advantage of it and it stops working after the C.F. player does it successfully three times in a row?

It was a lot of them, especially early on but even noticeable into May. People took longer than usual to actually play against this character, and not the perception of the character the community has built up.

I had no right to say that she has won "hundreds" of tournaments, but I have seen her win a majority of the tournaments that I watch and there is no doubt in my mind that she has any less favorable results outside of my spectacle experience.
You have every right to say whatever you want to say. You are also most certainly entitled to your opinion. The problem is that the data does not agree with you, and more importantly, your own provided evidence doesn't agree with you, in a textbook "egg on face" moment. The google docs I provided has the Top 16 at each of the tournaments used in the graph and the character used.

By all means, bring up the exact players who are both dominating (and shouldn't be I suppose) while at the same time not actually winning anything (Bayonettas have only won 7 of those 47 tournaments, and most of those were in March and the first week of April, i.e., when some tournaments were still using 1.1.4 and others were trying to relearn Sheik, with only 2 in the past month).

Many of them are members here, we can ask them if they feel they deserved their placement and if they agree with your assertion on their skill.

Or you can mention the particular Bayonetta players at the particular tournaments you're thinking of. I can watch the sets myself or we can, again, ping the player(s) themselves.

Edit: Spelling and grammer.
 
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Roy of Pharae

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about the patch, is Bayo really the only changed character? I really wish some of low tier characters got some of their flaws fixed...
 

OFY

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about the patch, is Bayo really the only changed character? I really wish some of low tier characters got some of their flaws fixed...
uhhhhh

We will hand out large infractions and/or temporary bans to those who stifle this process of patch note exploration & future patch discussion.
Some examples include, but are not limited to:
1. Posting false changes or future patch news, good intentions or not.
2. Asking if anything has changed when the patch notes are there for you to read.
3. Immature behaviour and complaining over the patch changes.

Feel free to discuss the changes as well as future patches in this thread.
first page homie
 

Gunla

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Sorry, I haven't been home. And I'm still not home. #_#
But paging Gunla Gunla
Added them in, as well as an explanation regarding file sizes, disclaimer regarding if there's more info, etc.
 
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RedMarf78

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To people talking about how the nerfs will force Bayo's meta to advance I ask why do you think so? I get the logic that without zero-to-deaths Bayo players will be forced to find new things to make the the character viable again etc. But what do you envision these new things to be? I for one feel that Bayo's overall combo game has been fleshed out quite well and that there's not much "new tech" to be discovered. With most of her combo tools removed I'm not really seeing where this new tech will spawn from, the most I can imagine is something like down tilt to RAR double back air. Bayo is a combo heavy character so I don't think it's far fetched to say that people have been exploring her combos and that there might not be as much to find as you think .Bayo's meta could advance but it could just as easily not so I don't think its good to just presume that the people who are a bit displeased with the nerfs should relax cause the meta will just evolve.

(As it stands I'm seeing the Bayo described in the patch notes as a character who'll rack up damage at an average speed and then be forced to fish for a witch time or down tilt to up air at 130% while also having to deal with a lackluster neutral.)

Though hopefully I'm wrong and Bayo's meta does advance. Personally though, I just don't see things working out too well for her.
 
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Johnlantern

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My sides. My friends and I were just playing smash 4 yesterday and everyone was complaining about how over powered Mayonetta was, now we're all laughing at mayo mains in our group because we all knew it was coming.
 

Aleis

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I hate to be THAT person, but we should just adapt. This update is a chance to have the Bayo-meta grow, this update is weeding out the people who only wanted a top tier main (not saying that is the only reason people picked out Bayonetta), and we get to be a little ~creative~ with our main lady! Last night I was actually training to use Bayonetta without ABK and WT and she's not that bad just more patient. I know that completely abstaining from using ABK/dABK or WT is ridiculous and unrealistic, but now we get to fully ~explore~ the character depth and design of Bayonetta.
 

Someperson8760

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Good thing they don't have to worry about her at all now. Now it is fun for the receiving end, and not for her.
:(:(:(
It's about time though, she had her fun stomping on everyone else as if this was Bayonetta 3. Karma's a *****.
 
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rm88

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I hate to be THAT person, but we should just adapt. This update is a chance to have the Bayo-meta grow, this update is weeding out the people who only wanted a top tier main (not saying that is the only reason people picked out Bayonetta), and we get to be a little ~creative~ with our main lady! Last night I was actually training to use Bayonetta without ABK and WT and she's not that bad just more patient. I know that completely abstaining from using ABK/dABK or WT is ridiculous and unrealistic, but now we get to fully ~explore~ the character depth and design of Bayonetta.
I wonder how many players will remain after "wedding out the people who wanted a top tier main", lol.
 

Johnlantern

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Bayo is still going to be great because if her ****ing incredible jab. It honestly feels like a special move and I can't believe i'm only pressing a when i use it.
 

exnecross

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I wonder how many players will remain after "wedding out the people who wanted a top tier main", lol.
Well, basically all of the Sheik mains stayed loyal after she lost her thrown at the top.. really the only one who ******* out was Zero to my knowledge, all the top Sheiks remained because she is such an amazing and fun character to play. Same thing for Diddy, really all the Diddy mains stayed loyal.. except Zero..
 

Buddhahobo

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I hate to be THAT person, but we should just adapt. This update is a chance to have the Bayo-meta grow, this update is weeding out the people who only wanted a top tier main (not saying that is the only reason people picked out Bayonetta), and we get to be a little ~creative~ with our main lady! Last night I was actually training to use Bayonetta without ABK and WT and she's not that bad just more patient. I know that completely abstaining from using ABK/dABK or WT is ridiculous and unrealistic, but now we get to fully ~explore~ the character depth and design of Bayonetta.
Such as what?

What depth or design of Bayonetta was not being experimented with before this patch?

The Bayonetta meta already had a wealth of variety, it was not stagnant.

Same thing for Diddy, really all the Diddy mains stayed loyal.. except Zero..
M2K says hi, after the second nerf at least.

Once a grab heavy Diddy Kong was no longer a viable strategy, he left.

At that point you either had to go bananas or go home.

That is, effectively, the current fear with Bayonetta. She still has the tools to be a bait and switch character with singular attacks it looks like. Witch Time needs to be treated like Wario's waft. Bair still exists, so she still has ledgeguarding/trumping abilities. Her damage output has been gutted if some of the Twist videos can be completely believed at face value, and the lack of any approach option on a character that never had that many to begin with is noticeable.

But the what her character was built around, aerial special combos, stringing special attacks, might not be there anymore. It's possible she's simply no longer a combo character, and that unfortunately means she's also taking a significant hit to being true to her source material and what Sakurai said the character is meant to do in her initial trailer.
 
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Stick Dude

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Well, basically all of the Sheik mains stayed loyal after she lost her thrown at the top.. really the only one who ******* out was Zero to my knowledge, all the top Sheiks remained because she is such an amazing and fun character to play. Same thing for Diddy, really all the Diddy mains stayed loyal.. except Zero..
ZeRo still uses Diddy and Shiek...
 

Someperson8760

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I hate to be THAT person, but we should just adapt. This update is a chance to have the Bayo-meta grow, this update is weeding out the people who only wanted a top tier main (not saying that is the only reason people picked out Bayonetta), and we get to be a little ~creative~ with our main lady! Last night I was actually training to use Bayonetta without ABK and WT and she's not that bad just more patient. I know that completely abstaining from using ABK/dABK or WT is ridiculous and unrealistic, but now we get to fully ~explore~ the character depth and design of Bayonetta.
YES EXACTLY! To Bayonetta fans: GIT GUD SCRUBS!
 

conTAgi0n

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I wonder how many players will remain after "wedding out the people who wanted a top tier main", lol.
Actually probably a lot. Bayonetta is a very popular character. She did win the ballot after all. The least character-loyal segment of the player base is top level players, and not a lot of them were using Bayonetta in the first place. She will mostly lose low-mid level players who were just going with the flavor-of-the-month top tier, but I suspect that they don't comprise as much of her player base as you might think.

Bayonetta is also in the unique position that she will likely gain a lot of new players as a result of nerfs, since so many prospective Bayo players were deterred from picking her up due to the stigma attached to her.

EDIT: And this is assuming that she drops substantially as a result of this patch. If she ends up remaining high/top tier, then even the mid level tourney players just looking for a serviceable top tier probably won't defect in huge numbers.
 
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Aleis

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Such as what?

What depth or design of Bayonetta was not being experimented with before this patch?

The Bayonetta meta already had a wealth of variety, it was not stagnant.



M2K says hi, after the second nerf at least.

Once a grab heavy Diddy Kong was no longer a viable strategy, he left.

At that point you either had to go bananas or go home.

That is, effectively, the current fear with Bayonetta. She still has the tools to be a bait and switch character with singular attacks it looks like. Witch Time needs to be treated like Wario's waft. Bair still exists, so she still has ledgeguarding/trumping abilities. Her damage output has been gutted if some of the Twist videos can be completely believed at face value, and the lack of any approach option on a character that never had that many to begin with is noticeable.

But the what her character was built around, aerial special combos, stringing special attacks, might not be there anymore. It's possible she's simply no longer a combo character, and that unfortunately means she's also taking a significant hit to being true to her source material and what Sakurai said the character is meant to do in her initial trailer.
Well, I mean we can explore her soon to be new design. Not exactly her current design since that is not going to be accessible anymore.

I guess a new Bayonetta meta is going to come out? It'll mix the things we already know and the things we will learn in the future.

YES EXACTLY! To Bayonetta fans: GIT GUD SCRUBS!
I didn't mean for it to be put quite like that. I mean that I and many others as Bayonetta mains will have to adapt and in this case suck it up. As unfortunate as it is Nintendo isn't going to revoke an entire patch, well from their history at least.
 
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LordShade67

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I remember that Sakurai mentioned that DLC was going to end with the release of corrin and Bayonetta, but was there also a source that patches would also come to an end with those two characters being released? Can't find a source for it.
That was people jumping to conclusions and not reading the fine print. Also contrary to popular belief, Sakurai himself has also mentioned he has a different team in charge of balancing and the like. Just wanted to get that out.
 

AkiraGr

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YES EXACTLY! To Bayonetta fans: GIT GUD SCRUBS!
Nice contribution. I like to play with you after the patch to see your level with Dark Pit.

I didn't mean for it to be put quite like that. I mean that I and many others as Bayonetta mains will have to adapt and in this case suck it up. As unfortunate as it is Nintendo isn't going to revoke an entire patch, well from their history at least.
Suck it up, why? Did others suck it up when they should learn the Bayonetta match up? No they keep complaining for 3 months strait spreading fud about the character.

No we won't suck it up. We will adapt play with our favorite character and try to make it work. But I will not accept this nerf mentality in the Smash Community. It must stop. 3 months for a nerf is ridiculous, what kind of meta was developed to nerf a character twice in 3 months? Sheik was nerfed after a year and wasn't destroyed her play style.

I voted Bayonetta to be included in smash because that's the way she was developed suit my play style in Smash 4. I wanted combos not a cripple trying to land a hit with 9 frame jabs.

What don't you like about it?
See guys what I mean... This kind of players complained about Bayonetta... SMH
 

Charoite

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I predict that :4cloud::4mewtwo::4diddy: :4sheik: would become even more common, people jumped of :4metaknight::4luigi: when their combos were nerfed, :4bayonetta: case will not be different (if the datamine is correct), top players will not pick her now that she is more difficult to use, they have :4sheik::4diddy::4mario: who are consistent and have advanced metagames, :4cloud: is pretty easy to use, and :4mewtwo:counter play is still underdeveloped, son yes her future looks grim at nationals tournaments.
 

Aleis

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Nice contribution. I like to play with you after the patch to see your level with Dark Pit.



Suck it up, why? Did others suck it up when they should learn the Bayonetta match up? No they keep complaining for 3 months strait spreading fud about the character.

No we won't suck it up. We will adapt play with our favorite character and try to make it work. But I will not accept this nerf mentality in the Smash Community. It must stop. 3 months for a nerf is ridiculous, what kind of meta was developed to nerf a character twice in 3 months? Sheik was nerfed after a year and wasn't destroyed her play style.

I voted Bayonetta to be included in smash because that's the way she was developed suit my play style in Smash 4. I wanted combos not a cripple trying to land a hit with 9 frame jabs.



See guys what I mean... This kind of players complained about Bayonetta... SMH
I understand your frustration, but there's not much we can do except to move forward and keep playing as Bayonetta. I'm sorry if I seemed harsh in my reply to Someperson8760.
 

Buddhahobo

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Well, I mean we can explore her soon to be new design. Not exactly her current design since that is not going to be accessible anymore.

I guess a new Bayonetta meta is going to come out? It'll mix the things we already know and the things we will learn in the future.
New, but not necessarily wanted.

There's more to a character than competitive viability.

People didn't like the 0-to-deaths. Those people also, for the vast most part, ignore how most of those combos never seemed to ever really end in a KO unless the opponent was already at around 80% when the combo began, but I digress.

The way the patch got rid of those particular combos, as it at least appears from what modders have shown so far, was by getting rid of the combos all together as opposed to making it so the combos no longer allowed for the KOs. Bayonetta mains really don't care if her combos lead to a KO or not. The Fun Factor, if you will, was stringing the attacks together. It's what she was built around. It's why she has increased landing lag relative to the number of special attacks she does in the air.

When Sheik and Diddy got nerfed, it was not contrary to what the character was built around. In the case of Bayonetta who got a developer overview video, at the time of this post, it most certainly seems like it is contrary.

Think, for one example, if Toon Link was changed such that he no longer had his projectiles. Yes he can be reworked, but it wouldn't be a zoning character anymore nor, quite possibly, would he be as true to his source material.
 
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ARGHETH

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Nice contribution. I like to play with you after the patch to see your level with Dark Pit.
Because personal attacks are entirely warrented.
3 months for a nerf is ridiculous,
Diddy Kong says hi.
I voted Bayonetta to be included in smash because that's the way she was developed suit my play style in Smash 4. I wanted combos not a cripple trying to land a hit with 9 frame jabs.
You still have a F7 Utilt/Dtilt/Fair and F4 Witch Twist, along with Witch Time being F5.
 

Aleis

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New, but not necessarily wanted.

There's more to a character than competitive viability.

People didn't like the 0-to-deaths. Those people also, for the vast most part, ignore how most of those combos never seemed to ever really end in a KO unless the opponent was already at around 80% when the combo began, but I digress.

The way the patch got rid of those particular combos, as it at least appears from what modders have shown so far, was by getting rid of the combos all together as opposed to making it so the combos no longer allowed for the KOs. Bayonetta mains really don't care if her combos lead to a KO or not. The Fun Factor, if you will, was stringing the attacks together. It's what she was built around. It's why she has increased landing lag relative to the number of special attacks she does in the air.

When Sheik and Diddy got nerfed, it was not contrary to what the character was built around. In the case of Bayonetta who got a developer overview video, at the time of this post, it most certainly seems like it is contrary.

Think, for one example, if Toon Link was changed such that he no longer had his projectiles. Yes he can be reworked, but it wouldn't be a zoning character anymore nor, quite possibly, would he be as true to his source material.
The new Bayonetta play style is going to be interesting. Too bad that the original intent of Bayonetta is so largely changed. I can't lab anything until the patch comes out, but I'm sure that there is going to be an informative thread for Bayonetta mains that'll come from this.
 
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Abyssal Lagiacrus

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I'm looking forward to the patch so I can learn newBayo and develop some custom combos and cool things with the changes.
 

Ghidorah14

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So... Bayonetta's players are whining instead of adapting ? Ironic :awesome:

Also, stop saying that Bayonetta is destroyed or anything, the patch isn't release yet... Bayonetta's players will probably find new combos/set-ups.
How can we adapt if, as you say, the patch isnt even out yet?

-facepalm-

lol are bayo mains really crying about the nerfs? YOU CAN ADAPT. Just like you told us to do when WE complained about your character!
Difference is, bayo mains actually will adapt, as opposed to the scrublords who just did nothing but stomp their feet and cry for nerfs.
 

Abyssal Lagiacrus

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However, there is something I want to address

Difference is, bayo mains actually will adapt, as opposed to the scrublords who just did nothing but stomp their feet and cry for nerfs.
This right here, I agree with 100%. Yes, Bayonetta was a good character before this patch (assuming the whole thing isn't a big load of nonsense). Yes, playing a good character will generally net you better results than playing a low or mid tier character. That's just common sense.

I co-main Iggy and Bayonetta and my best friend mained Bayonetta (he's probably going to drop her after the patch because he's sick of how bad they hit her due to all the public outcry). I don't usually ditto, so most of our matches was my Iggy vs. his Bayonetta. I got beat pretty handily for a bit while I was learning the matchup, but once I got my footing in how to play against her, we started going 50/50 in wins like we usually do.

It's almost like learning the matchup is beneficial.

Just because Bayonetta has the chance to 0-death you, doesn't mean she's busted. She doesn't have the best neutral or the best frame data, and the combos were how she went about things. She was made to be a combo character. Yes, even now with all my Bayonetta experience, I still get 0-deathed by my friend. But guess what? I also SDI out of a lot of his combos and avoid a lot of setups like crazy as well. I don't get mad when I get 0-deathed. It's just a part of who she is (was) as a Smash character, and that's something I'm going to miss, because Bayonetta became my #1 favorite character to fight as well as being tied with Iggy for my favorite character to play as.

But the bottom line is, I'm getting tired of all this boasting and gloating from all the Bayonetta haters. Stop with the "LOL NOW YOU'RE EXPOSED" "ADAPT LIKE WE HAD TO" (that one usually makes me laugh because as Ghidorah said, most smashers didn't adapt to Bayonetta, they just flooded the internet with hate for her and calls for nerfs) and things like that; it's such a childish thing to do now that a good character was hit so hard with nerfs.
 

Aleis

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Knowing that a maintenance is so close by is really anxiety filling... I'm actually really scared to see the new Bayonetta. It took me a long time as it is to learn her combos and even to do the diagonal After Burner Kick (which still Witch Times occasionally), and now it's just hard. I'm gonna stick with her, but I now get what Sheik, Diddy, and Meta Knight mains felt like.
 
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