1.0.4 Changes and also apologies - LUMA CAN STILL HIT WHEN GRABBED

[icraq]

@ murasakiame Yeah, that's because you could attack with Luma when Rosa was in hitstun, which was yet another nerf. And it messes me up constantly, I'm instinctively still trying to follow up with Luma after getting hit and it's no longer possible. So Luma would stick around and attack because he was attacking. Luma just comes back any time you do an action, like attack, jump, air dodge, etc, nothing changed, nothing is random.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Yes, I am testing with Rosalina's Up Smash (I KO Luma before doing it). Uncharged Up Smash KOs Mario at 135%, from neutral position (I have him set to Stop).

I'll even upload a video if you aren't getting the same results and want to see.

Maybe it's different between the NTSC and PAL versions? I've done all the tests that you've did, but the results are different on my end. You are doing the tests on an Omega Form stage right?

Maybe I should point out that I never did let the Luma get KO'd, but I did use Luma Shot to separate it from me.

 

[murasakiame]

And now that we know patches are really a thing, we should expect any character who is deemed too strong to get some nerfs in the future.

this is exactly why i'm not playing this game competitively anymore and will not be picking up the wii u version.

 

[Lavani]

Maybe it's different between the NTSC and PAL versions? I've done all the tests that you've did, but the results are different on my end. You are doing the tests on an Omega Form stage right?

I've got Mario being KO'd from the middle of FD starting at 137% on NTSC, though I doubt there'd be region differences considering wifi isn't region-locked.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I've got Mario being KO'd from the middle of FD starting at 137% on NTSC, though I doubt there'd be region differences considering wifi isn't region-locked.

I just tried it on Final Destination. Uncharged up smash on 130% damage Mario. Result, he still survived.

Tried again with Mario's damage set at 140%. Result, a KO.

 

[Lavani]

I just tried it on Final Destination. Uncharged up smash on 130% damage Mario. Result, he still survived.

Tried again with Mario's damage set at 140%. Result, a KO.

Right, maybe I wasn't clear enough.

At 135%-136%, he sometimes is KO'd and sometimes survives
At 137%, he seems to die consistently
At 138%, he's KO'd with black lightning effects

so 1.0.4 usmash should be reliably KOing starting at 137%

 

[icraq]

this is exactly why i'm not playing this game competitively anymore and will not be picking up the wii u version.

I understand where you're coming from, this isn't a game meant to be played competitively necessarily, which is an unfortunate truth. However, it took me about 8 hrs or so and I've adapted. Right now R&L has a very strong juggle game with vertical vectoring being removed, she kills very early now comparatively, around 100 for mediums and 120 for heavies near the top, and a sour spot Uair combos into sweet spot uair at high percents. That is the only buff, not gonna lie, you gotta stop using nair how we used to, and focus a lot on juggles. I think Rosa's meta was headed in this direction regardless, and I've just decided I gotta make up for the lost damage in other ways, like dash attack canceled grabs for that free 3%. Camping out the Luma respawn is lame but a necessary adaptation, but whatever. Still, I often think I should just be playing SF4. I've been going back and forth about the Wii U since I first heard a nerf was coming and I'm waiting to see how I do in tournament to determine whether or not I pick it up. I'm leaning towards not.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Right, maybe I wasn't clear enough.

At 135%-136%, he sometimes is KO'd and sometimes survives
At 137%, he seems to die consistently
At 138%, he's KO'd with black lightning effects

so 1.0.4 usmash should be reliably KOing starting at 137%

All the tests were done in Training. 135% -> 147%; Mario survived all of my KO attempts while he's on the ground, but he does get KO'd at that point while airborne.

Edit: Okay, Mario needs to have 149% damage for an uncharged up smash to start KOing him. Any lower than that, and he survives.

 

[Lavani]

All the tests were done in Training. 135% -> 147%; Mario survived all of my KO attempts while he's on the ground, but he does get KO'd at that point while airborne.

Edit: Okay, Mario needs to have 149% damage for an uncharged up smash to start KOing him. Any lower than that, and he survives.

Mine were in training as well.

He usually survived at 135% for me, but I did get one or two KOs out of who-knows-how-many attempts.

 

[murasakiame]

I understand where you're coming from, this isn't a game meant to be played competitively necessarily, which is an unfortunate truth. However, it took me about 8 hrs or so and I've adapted. Right now R&L has a very strong juggle game with vertical vectoring being removed, she kills very early now comparatively, around 100 for mediums and 120 for heavies near the top, and a sour spot Uair combos into sweet spot uair at high percents. That is the only buff, not gonna lie, you gotta stop using nair how we used to, and focus a lot on juggles. I think Rosa's meta was headed in this direction regardless, and I've just decided I gotta make up for the lost damage in other ways, like dash attack canceled grabs for that free 3%. Camping out the Luma respawn is lame but a necessary adaptation, but whatever. Still, I often think I should just be playing SF4. I've been going back and forth about the Wii U since I first heard a nerf was coming and I'm waiting to see how I do in tournament to determine whether or not I pick it up. I'm leaning towards not.

i hear you, man. thanks for nailing down the thing about luma's inability to attack while rosalina is in hitstun. i mean, golly, what is the point of having a partner character in that regard? adjusting to these changes is not impossible, i'm sure, and she can still be strong (though i firmly believe not as strong, no matter how comfortable one becomes with the changes). but like, why should i have to? and how many times will i have to? even before the patch, i'd had more than a few conversations with buds about the game and the decisions made and was already on the fence re: wii u. a lot of the adjustments from previous smash (ledge mechanics in particular) are smart and welcome, but the random lag on things like samus' projectiles or palutena's entire moveset (lol) or airdodging>landing are just so frustrating -- empty, transparent attempts to hold characters back, when every character should be racing for the top. i resolved to live with it, but with the release of this patch and the threat of more coming, it's just not my playground anymore. more power to the guys who don't play like i do and still get the same enjoyment from rosaluma -- i'm almost jealous of you, lol.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Mine were in training as well.

He usually survived at 135% for me, but I did get one or two KOs out of who-knows-how-many attempts.

All that I know is that if Mario's damage hits 149%, he's just about guaranteed to get KO'd by Rosalina's uncharged up smash. If his current damage is less than that, then he's pretty much going to survive.

On an additional note, Mario's damage must be at 110% for a fully charged up smash to almost always KO him. Lower than 110%, and Mario will likely survive.

 

[ChikoLad]

He consistently gets KO'd for me at 135%, often a Star or Screen KO. On Omega Battlefield.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

He consistently gets KO'd for me at 135%, often a Star or Screen KO. On Omega Battlefield.

Now, is that how much damage Mario has "before" you used Rosalina's uncharged up smash on him? It would have to be, because if Mario's damage doesn't hit 149% or higher, then he's likely going to survive the uncharged up smash.

 

[Lavani]

Now, is that how much damage Mario has "before" you used Rosalina's uncharged up smash on him? It would have to be, because if Mario's damage doesn't hit 149% or higher, then he's likely going to survive the uncharged up smash.

Perhaps that's where the confusion's coming from; we're talking about the percent before he's hit.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Perhaps that's where the confusion's coming from; we're talking about the percent before he's hit.

That seems to be the case, as the KO damage value estimates that I've displayed on the complete coverage thread are based on what Mario's damage is set at "after" the attack connects.

 

[Steam]

rosalina was not the strongest character in the game and so that is not a justifiable reason to nerf. she was not unbalanced. i do not agree with nerfing even the strongest character in the game, something that cannot really be legitimately determined after a month and a half of play with 3ds controls. balance should be attained by buffing, not nerfing.

I promise you you do not want to see characters like duck hunt or ganondorf buffed to the same level of strength as rosalina.

honestly, either rosalina or sheik was the strongest character prepatch, it kinda depended how you saw it. Sheik was probably the best in terms of where she'd end up on the tier list. Rosalina was the best in terms of invalidating a large portion of the roster because her name was rosalina. if any character needed nerfs the most it was probably rosalina, not because of overall strength so much as how downright oppressive she is to so much of the cast.

 

[murasakiame]

I promise you you do not want to see characters like duck hunt or ganondorf buffed to the same level of strength as rosalina.

honestly, either rosalina or sheik was the strongest character prepatch, it kinda depended how you saw it. Sheik was probably the best in terms of where she'd end up on the tier list. Rosalina was the best in terms of invalidating a large portion of the roster because her name was rosalina. if any character needed nerfs the most it was probably rosalina, not because of overall strength so much as how downright oppressive she is to so much of the cast.

there is a reason that the majority of the community has no patience for the discussion of tier lists at this point of the meta. none of the things you are saying are absolute. rosalina had good matchups and bad matchups, more good than bad, but she was in no way, shape, or form an insurmountable challenge. further, the game has been out for about two months with 3ds controls. i guarantee you perceptions will change, just as they always have. i personally believe diddy is the strongest character in the game at this moment, but the meta is fluid. you clearly have an issue with rosalina and thus support these changes, but that's your prerogative.

i don't really know much about duck hunt, but yes i absolutely would like it if ganondorf players had a way to cancel their aerial lag or at least land safely. that's balance i can believe in.

 

[ChikoLad]

Now, is that how much damage Mario has "before" you used Rosalina's uncharged up smash on him? It would have to be, because if Mario's damage doesn't hit 149% or higher, then he's likely going to survive the uncharged up smash.

Yes, I'm talking about before the attack.

I think it's more important to be listing that, so that's what I look out for. Because the damage an opponent is at after the attack is irrelevant once you know what percents to be looking out for to get that KO in the first place. Once I see Mario at 135% or more, I know to Up Smash him then. Not when he's at 150%. If that's the percent he's at after the attack, that's none of my concern, as he will already be gone.

 

[Steam]

ganon being able to actually do SH aerials wouldn't be on the same tier of strength as rosalina. That would make him decent, but putting someone on Rosalina (or sheik or diddy) level requires some breaking. Maybe if sideB had super armor and was untechable and was faster on top of all those things.

 

[Iron Kraken]

I understand where you're coming from, this isn't a game meant to be played competitively necessarily, which is an unfortunate truth. However, it took me about 8 hrs or so and I've adapted. Right now R&L has a very strong juggle game with vertical vectoring being removed, she kills very early now comparatively, around 100 for mediums and 120 for heavies near the top, and a sour spot Uair combos into sweet spot uair at high percents. That is the only buff, not gonna lie, you gotta stop using nair how we used to, and focus a lot on juggles. I think Rosa's meta was headed in this direction regardless, and I've just decided I gotta make up for the lost damage in other ways, like dash attack canceled grabs for that free 3%. Camping out the Luma respawn is lame but a necessary adaptation, but whatever. Still, I often think I should just be playing SF4. I've been going back and forth about the Wii U since I first heard a nerf was coming and I'm waiting to see how I do in tournament to determine whether or not I pick it up. I'm leaning towards not.

Just want to say that juggling is absolutely how I get the majority of my kills. U-Air kills so early and in general opponent's can only hope to get around the move by trying to run the hell away / air dodging. Very few attacks can trump it from up above. And like you said, it's now much more potent as a kill move because when vectoring existed, the opponent would always be holding down, so it was pretty much always vectored properly. I've definitely been noticing U-Airs killing at really low %s (like sub-100). U-air was already one of Rosalina's trump cards and now it's just that much more dangerous.

Beyond that, Dair is how I get the majority of my kills these days, and sometimes Fair. If you hit your opponent off the stage, Rosalina can cover every return option. Dair if they go low and Fair if they go high. Dair in particular is such a potent gimping option. Relative to other spikes, it's just so easy for Rosalina to hit with.

Who needs to worry about a few percent loss on an up-smash KO when we should all be busy gimping our opponents to hell?

 

[felix45]

Proof that Nair had hitbox changes.

HELLO AND WELCOME TO THE OFFICIAL THINKAMAN CHANGELOG POST

Brought to you by @Dantarion!

Buckle your seatbelts and get your F5 key ready. We're doing this.

As a reminder, these are just changes to character script files--not game engine alterations, and not animations!

IASA and AC data does not seem seem to be stored in these files!!!


U-tilt damage 6.3 -> 5.5
a few unknown line deletions in the misc scripts for subactions 216-21d


F-smash damage 14 -> 15
D-smash back hit angle 0x46 -> 0x3C, base knockback 0x50 -> 0x64
Fair hitbox size 4.8 -> 5.6
subaction 242 hitbox size 1.6 -> 1.7, z-pos 6.1 -> 7.0 (whatever it is, it does 25% at a 0x58 angle)
subaction 246 hitbox size 2.1 -> 2.2, z-pos 4.7 -> 5.5 (whatever it is, it does 20% at a 0x5A angle)


NOTHING


NOTHING


unknown code added to subaction 47
unknown alterations to subactions 20e and 210; probably fixing up-b bugs?


D-tilt hitboxes come out on frame 4 -> 5, and have had their sizes reduced 4.0/2.5/2.0 -> 4.0/3.2/2.5; the priorities of the latter two hitboxes has been corrected, and and the x-pos of the last one shifted 0 -> 1; in accordance with the delayed start time, the hitboxes only last 5 -> 4 frames.

F-smash base knockback 0x73 -> 0x6F
U-smash base knockback 0x64 -> 0x5A, primary hitbox size 5.0 -> 4.0 (secondary size unchanged)
Nair early hitbox sizes reduced 5.0/3.5 -> 4.2/3.0, x-pos shifted 4.5/1.5 -> 3.0/2.0
Nair early hitbox damage 6.0 -> 5.0
Nair late hitbox sizes reduced 5.0/3.5 -> 4.2/3.0, x-pos shifted 4.5/1.5 -> 3.0/2.0
Nair late hitbox damage decreased 10.0 -> 7.5
Fair early hits knockback growth adjusted 0x14/0x23 -> 0x37/37
Fair final hit knockback growth reduced 0x3C -> 0x32
F-throw base knockback reduced 0x55 -> 0x4C
B-throw base knockback reduced 0x46 -> 0x3C


unknown additional line added on frame 28 in subaction 16


unknown additional line added to subaction 8F
subactions 231 and 232 do something on frame 1 instead of 2


unknown changes to the misc script of uair
unknown new line and tweak to subaction 290


NOTHING


Repeating jab final hitbox size 4.0 -> 5.0, y-pos 5.0 -> 5.5
unknown line deleted from subactions FC and FD
unknown line and 57 frame timer added to subactions 1A7-1AC
unknown line deleted from subaction 21F; also has an unknown hitbox (1%, hits after frame 6) param changed from 0x3F -> 0x1F
subaction 23E timer changed from 8 -> 9, unknown hitbox-like params of 5.0 and 4.0 reduced by 1
subaction 240 unknown hitbox-like params of 5.0 and 4.0 reduced by 1 or 2



F-smash 1 sweetspot knockback growth decreased 0x3C -> 0x2F



U-tilt damage increased 6.5 -> 7.2
Unknown param on grab hitbox of pivot grab changed from -18.7 -> -15.0



Fair damage reduced 6.8/6.0 -> 5.5/4.8
Uair final hit base knockback reduced 0x9B -> 0x8A
Bouncing Fish base knockback reduced 0x64 -> 0x5A, knockback growth reduced 0x1E -> 0x1A


The following line removed from misc scripting for u-tilt, u-smash and d-smash charge, and subactions 67, 137, 141, 147, 14D, 153, 1A7-1AA, 20E-210, 212-214, 216-218, 21A-21C, 23E, 240, 246-248

unk_010(0x0, 3.000000, 30.000000, 2.000000, 1.000000, 0.000000, 12.000000, 40.000000, 20.000000, 0x32, )

NOTHING


NOTHING


U-smash hit frame slowed 8 -> 10, first hitbox duration increased 1 -> 2


unknown value in subaction 1B3 tweaked from 0x2 to 0x4
subaction 250-252 and 258-25A windboxs unknown parameter changed from 0x3F to 0x1F
unknown value in subaction 2D0 tweaked from 1.0 to 2.0
unknown line added to subactions 2D8 to 2DC


A lot of mystery lines removed from misc scripts like ganon that I don't care about atm
U-smash hitbox duration increased, from frame 23 -> 27 (duration 5 -> 9)
Unknown param of pivot grab tweaked from -19.4 -> -17.4 (like Zelda)


Also has more mystery misc script lines I don't care about right now


212 CHANGES? SCREW THIS DOING IT LATER


Yet more misc script lines deleted
Unknown param at the end of jab2 tweaked from 0x2B -> 0x2F
Unknown line of code added after frame 32 to subactions 260-262
Unknown param at the end of subaction 28C tweaked from 0xF -> 0x16


OH HELL NO NOT NOW


More mystery misc deletions
Fair damage reduced 13 -> 12
D-throw angle changed 0x46 -> 0x50, base knockback increased 0x3C -> 0x52
Subaction 304 hitbox frame reduced 1.0 -> 0.0
Subaction 304 and 306 hitboxs (10%, angel 0x169) has a lot of differences, adds additional hitbox spaced differently (z=40.0)


Nair initial hit damage increased 7.0 -> 10.0
Nair later hit damage increased 5.0 -> 7.5
Fair initial hits angle changed from 0x16E -> 0x55 on all applicable hitboxes
Bair final hit base knockback increased 0xB4 -> 0xD4
Uair y-pos changed 17.0 -> 19.0
Uair graphics tweaked
Dair y-pos changed 4.5 -> 6.5, z-pos changed 4.5 -> 3.5
Dair graphics tweaked
F-throw initial timer changed to synchronous (shouldn't matter?), additional hitboxes added at different positions.
Unknown line added to subaction 272
Unknown parameter in subaction 274 changed 0x1 -> 0x2


Jab 2 damage reduced 3.0 -> 2.0
Jab 3 damage reduced 8.0 -> 7.0
F-tilt (normal) tertiary hitboxes x-pos -5.0 -> -3.8
Nair unknown parameter changed 1.0 -> 2.0


NOTHING


Fair landing hitbox damage increased 2.0 -> 5.0, z-pos 11.0 -> 12.0, unknown parameter 8.0 -> 7.0
Unknown timer in subactions 213 and 21F moved from frame 9 -> 12
Code removed from graphics and sound scripts for subactions 234-236

so based on this rosalina had the most hitbox nerfs...nerfs hit her the hardest this patch imo. The Nair stuff you wrote really helps thank you.



****ing knew that Nair was off from minute 1. Nair is such **** now, have to learn to use it only situationally.

 

[ChikoLad]

I'm taking that with a grain of salt, since I've not been noticing any difference in accuracy with my attacks, and I've been hitting people just as well.

 

[felix45]

I'm taking that with a grain of salt, since I've not been noticing any difference in accuracy with my attacks, and I've been hitting people just as well.

I'm not because I know I lose most times when trying to out prioritize like I used to. It was my go to move offstage but now it loses out to most up b and side b moves as well as most aerials.


Now I can only get it to consistently beat Fox/falco illusion.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Okay, I had a rather huge scare. I deleted the 1.0.4 patch, hoping to compare KO changes with Rosalina's moves, but when I tried to run the game without the new update, the game wouldn't let me access my game data, and I had to work with a factory condition save file that never saves.

When I reinstalled the update, however, I was able to reaccess my game data, and as such, all of my hard work stayed in tact. I almost thought for a moment that I had to redo everything all over again.

 

[NairWizard]

i hear you, man. thanks for nailing down the thing about luma's inability to attack while rosalina is in hitstun. i mean, golly, what is the point of having a partner character in that regard? adjusting to these changes is not impossible, i'm sure, and she can still be strong (though i firmly believe not as strong, no matter how comfortable one becomes with the changes). but like, why should i have to? and how many times will i have to? even before the patch, i'd had more than a few conversations with buds about the game and the decisions made and was already on the fence re: wii u. a lot of the adjustments from previous smash (ledge mechanics in particular) are smart and welcome, but the random lag on things like samus' projectiles or palutena's entire moveset (lol) or airdodging>landing are just so frustrating -- empty, transparent attempts to hold characters back, when every character should be racing for the top. i resolved to live with it, but with the release of this patch and the threat of more coming, it's just not my playground anymore. more power to the guys who don't play like i do and still get the same enjoyment from rosaluma -- i'm almost jealous of you, lol.

The patch is probably a one-time thing for the Wii U release. The game was still in development until now, so future patches won't be so major. The developers determined that Rosalina was too strong and made balance changes accordingly. They probably made many such balance changes before the 3DS version was even released, which you never saw, of course. Maybe at one point Palutena had no lag on her attacks and was OP with custom moves on, and then they nerfed her. Maybe at one point Luma had 100 HP. Who knows? The game wasn't out then, and it's only really coming out now.

"but I paid for the 3ds version"

Well, good for you. You're still going to be able to enjoy the 3DS version. Rosalina is still in the upper tiers.

Tbh it's hard to take you seriously when you come in here with a condescending attitude and are refusing to listen to what anyone else has to say about anything. I'm sure the smash community won't miss this kind of attitude.

 

[murasakiame]

The patch is probably a one-time thing for the Wii U release. The game was still in development until now, so future patches won't be so major. The developers determined that Rosalina was too strong and made balance changes accordingly. They probably made many such balance changes before the 3DS version was even released, which you never saw, of course. Maybe at one point Palutena had no lag on her attacks and was OP with custom moves on, and then they nerfed her. Maybe at one point Luma had 100 HP. Who knows? The game wasn't out then, and it's only really coming out now.

"but I paid for the 3ds version"

Well, good for you. You're still going to be able to enjoy the 3DS version. Rosalina is still in the upper tiers.

Tbh it's hard to take you seriously when you come in here with a condescending attitude and are refusing to listen to what anyone else has to say about anything. I'm sure the smash community won't miss this kind of attitude.

sorry, but "probably" doesn't work for me. comparing an unreleased game to smash for 3ds is problematic for obvious reasons. saying smash for 3ds is really only coming out now is similarly problematic and suggests an accepted arrogance on nintendo's part, especially considering they are likely to sell far more copies of the 3ds version, and, you know, it came out two months ago.

"but i paid for the 3ds version." i don't know who you're quoting but i never said that.

your difficulty taking me seriously is none of my concern. i've listened to and engaged with everyone who's responded to my comments. where others have pushed back, i have responded in kind. if that makes me condescending in your eyes, so be it. these are just words on a page in a corner of the internet. all your comments have basically amounted to get over it, she's not that different. except she is to me, and unlike you, i'm not telling you how to feel about it.

edit: lol at you claiming i refuse to listen to what anyone has to say about anything and yet the first sentence in my quote you referenced is "i hear you, man."

 

[icraq]

Who needs to worry about a few percent loss on an up-smash KO when we should all be busy gimping our opponents to hell?

rosa probably still is the gimp queen, some characters i dont have an answer for their recovery but most you just jump off and dair em and they die
now fair gimps better too, and you can do it on the stage. sh ff fair if your opponent recovers high, if you catch them and ff it and land after the 2nd hit of fair it'll pull them down off the stage, voila, semi spike. i'd like to find a way to maybe space fair so i dont have to land after the 2nd hit to spike, but i havent figured it out yet.

something else we missed is dtilt was made more laggy apparently, found due to data dumps, something i suspected but hadn't confirmed yet. i think it starts on frame 6 as oppoesd to frame 5 now.

also i feel like usmash combos better with solo rosa, but im skeptical. not true combos, but your opponent doesnt have much choice in the matter of catching 2-3 usmashes at early percentages in the right circumstances.

if the patches continue like this i gotta find a new hobby, plain and simple, i'm still reserved about whether or not i'll continue to play after my next tournament. i wasnt really diggin the way competitive smash 4 was headin anyways, i was kinda hopeful for ATs to save us but.. yeah that isnt gonna happen. they seem keen on slowing down aggressive play and making character worse, as opposed to making bad characters better.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Rosalina's nair is still really good, I just think punishing it is a little easier now so it's not so bread and butter. Which I think is a good thing because IMO bread and butters are stupid.

@ Sunnysunny - come and tell them of the nair please

You got it bossu~

So, for anyone who hasn't been abusing the ever loving **** out of it, Rosalina's n-air is something I can only describe as "the perfect move."

The best way I can explain it, is if I break it apart in chunks. The move starts up quickly with Luma punching in the front, while Rosa begins her own hitbox starting from the back. This Automatically covers both sides of her right off the back and will catch pre-mature rollers who try and get behind her, while locking down the opponent in front with the first punch of luma. By the time the move ends, luma then kicks to the back, as rosa's dress hitbox falls to the front. Again, luma will catch anyone who rolls to the back of her now with the hitbox that swipes back, while the dress hitbox of Rosa can catch anyone infront of her. As she lands, both her air mobility coupled with the range of this move allows it to be safe on shield if you jab afterwards, as luma will stop even the longest range grabs from catching her by knocking them out of follow up.

It's something that I can only describe as Samus's n-air merged with Charizards n-air. Coupled with Rosa's air mobility this makes for a COMPLETELY safe move, with quick start up, and incredible lock down that also happens to catch rolls. The initial hit from luma at the start also makes this insanely easy to just throw out and start up pressure whenever your close. Even SH n-airing into another SH-N-air is a very viable option to slowly put pressure on your opponent.

It's a move I can only describe as mindless, and steam is most definitely not over-exaggerating when he says how dumb it is. Granted, I think some characters can deal with it MUCH better then others, such as shiek, who could probably make Rosa think twice about throwing it out with a well timed running u-smash between Luma and Rosa's hits. However, there are just some characters without any answers to it like Lucario, and I believe there's much more out there.

It's a move with little risk and a lot of reward, to the point where in certain match ups, there's almost little reason to use anything else in the nuetral game. In a fighting game, it's fine for a move to make a character, or a move to do it's job and do it well. But a move that does every job to the extent that there's little reason to use any other moves is...ridiculous. Ha.

Again, this is only in certain match ups, but as someone who has been doing nothing but consistently taking 1st and 2nd here in colorado using Rosa and Lucario I can safely say that this move has **** on match-ups that I most definitely don't deserve to win so mindlessly.

I have no quarrel with how good Rosa was pre-patch. Bad match-ups exist. It's a given. But when a single move makes the match up easy enough to turn off your brain, that's just bad game design. I say this with 100% certainty. Depending on the match-up that move is mindless as ****. Rosa already polorizes match-ups to a lesser extent on grab-reliant character. It's best not to add onto the pile.

I heard it lost some of it's base knockback, so, that's atleast a step in the right direction, but still, when it comes to the nuetral game, I really can't think of any other move that's as dominant as it is. Please keep in mind i'm talking pre-patch. Again, havn't touched her post patch. Waiting for wii-u version, but i'll probably stick by her, regardless of the nerfs.

 

[icraq]

@ Sunnysunny I think that's mostly all true for 1.0.3's nair, but it's a different beast now. And I've yet to find a single character who didn't have a response to nair except maybe like, DK. Even then, I have no idea, no one uses DK in high level play.

Shrinking the hitbox has reduced it's efficiency significantly, specifically in regards to it's disjoint being removed entirely. It's not nearly as safe on shield poke now. Not even remotely, and the ground that it covers underneath Rosa is basically non-existent, whereas before you could actually SHFF it and land it on someone with the end of her dress, but now you have to literally be right on top of your opponent to land it. At that point it's completely punishable. You can be punished before you can get a jab.

How do you mean Lucario has no response to it? Almost every character has a fast enough forward attacking aerial, Lucario actually has a very fast fair, I don't see how you could say he just has no response to it. Luma's jab in front is tiny and lasts for almost no time at all and has extremely little range and **** priority. Sheik's usmash isn't even the scary response, she can do literally anything in the air to interrupt Rosa's nair.

The thing is, Rosa's fair is a terrible approach option, dair is probably 2nd best aerial approach, but this was one of her only safe approach moves, and despite it's obvious strengths,I think the fact that if you saw a Rosa jump in the air you had a 99% chance they were going to nair you, which could easily be read and countered with nearly any fair in the game. In Rosa dittos you can just stand there and Fsmash them, I'm sure other characters share similar abilities.

Not to mention almost every character in the game has a nair that is good for getting opponents off of you mid-combo, like a sex-kick or something spinny like villager's, nair is **** at getting opponents off of you and Rosalina's only ability to get opponents off of her was using Luma, which is now impossible due to being unable to control Luma whilst taking in hitstun.

So like, yeah, I think everyone agrees with you, nair was pretty good. The issue is it required people to learn how to counteract it, and since this is a new game and we're using ****ty controllers it was hard, but I've actually played people who know what they're doing and throwing a nair out was hardly ever safe. Now it's barely safe and hardly useful, except against the random people on for glory who still don't understand the move.

 

[Sunnysunny]

@ Sunnysunny The issue is it required people to learn how to counteract it, and since this is a new game and we're using ****ty controllers it was hard

That's what I meant by characters having no answer pre-patch. I was hoping the controls went without saying. The metagame will change once wii-u comes out and people learn how to space. However, Lucario's f-air was most definitely not an answer to it, I can safely say a large chunk of the cast didn't have much reliable options against it either. You literally just run up n-air then hold back. Rosa's air mobility made it easy enough to weave in and out your opponents and attack range. The range of Luma's first kick was more then enough to space it properly to get in and out of a lot of characters attack range, and the gap was hard to make up. Not to mention you could even mix this up by crossing over the opponent which lets Luma hit them with both kicks if they shield. Ha! Part of what made it great was it was amazing at baiting punish attempts with it. Lucario's f-air is fast, but fast does doesn't mean **** when your mobility is trash, and range your range is fair at best. Luma even sponged up aurasphere attempts if you just dash in with it. If you're getting punished by anyone with less then stellar mobility you're spacing her n-air wrong. Again, pre-patch. To add on to this, with how quickly it came out, and with how little commitment you had to it, you could even go ahead and train the opponent to block the first hit in hopes to barelys punish it, which let's you go for grab attempts. The very presents of that move alone completely ****s with the mentality your opponent has to have. Getting hit by a an aerial every once in awhile, by the few cast members that can reliably punish it is like a slap on the wrist with how much mileage you could get out of that move in the previous patch.

Also, small note, but how is shieks u-smash not a scary option? It's one of her best kill moves. :V

Regardless, the nerfs kinda blow but i'll deal.
It seems like they're having a hard time trying to figure out a good balance for it. When I get the wii-u i'll play around with Rosa I guess and see if I should adapt or just switch. but I won't lie. I picked up a pocket rosalina purely because at the time it was easy to see she was one of the better characters out there. Lucario is my true home boy. B)

 

[KuroganeHammer]

i main rosalina

i am also a frame data goddess

rosalina is still really good, just not the best character in the game anymore (but still close to it)

stop crying

 

[Sunnysunny]

Can confirm. @ KuroganeHammer is prettiest goddess.

 

[truecrisis]

Seriously, dont need 3 pages of crying.

Id rather talk about her changes, and/or ways to improve.

People say that Luma can still attack during stun, but I'm seeing opposite. For example, when in stun from Yoshis flutter kick (d air) Luma sits there doing nothing.

 

[icraq]

People say that Luma can still attack during stun, but I'm seeing opposite. For example, when in stun from Yoshis flutter kick (d air) Luma sits there doing nothing.

no one's saying that
everyone's saying the opposite
all hitstun renders luma useless

@ KuroganeHammer dont think it's necessarily whining, there just seems to be a lot of confusion regarding nair. most are saying it's still as good, some saying better, but for some reason i find myself still writing essays about how it was changed fairly drastically.

@ Sunnysunny i still dont think we're disagreeing too much, except that i've seen a lot of good players find ways to punish nair pre-patch. that could just be my sole experience, who knows. and yes the controls were an issue but my point was some people have overcome it.

 

[truecrisis]

i still dont think we're disagreeing too much, except that i've seen a lot of good players find ways to punish nair pre-patch. that could just be my sole experience, who knows. .

i think that is just your experience, because usually for someone who spams a move good players will adapt and start punishing you. and it sounds like that was your bread and butter move.
for someone who would use it sparingly i think people would have a hard time with it

 

[Krazy4Krash]

Last thing I wanted to do before updating my system, display the new whiffed grab cooldown. Left is 1.0.3, right is 1.0.4. Shown at roughly half speed. Dash grab is the same difference.

Also, here's Down Smash again because I've done it better this time.

 

[felix45]

i think that is just your experience, because usually for someone who spams a move good players will adapt and start punishing you. and it sounds like that was your bread and butter move.
for someone who would use it sparingly i think people would have a hard time with it

It was any good Rosa player's go to move because it was useful in almost any situation. Now it is a really crappy situational move and now Rosa has no aerial approach options. We pretty much now only can throw out luma and try to make them come to you. Rosa has bad offensive options in using fair or Bair because of high endlag and dair doesn't hit far enough in front to use it while approaching.

So yeah losing the hitbox on Nair is a big deal. I would prefer to have the old hitbox and only 3% damage than have its current form.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

guys

nair is basically the same

its hitboxes got reduced in size and positioned to make up for it

 

[Steam]

@ Sunnysunny I think that's mostly all true for 1.0.3's nair,

How do you mean Lucario has no response to it? Almost every character has a fast enough forward attacking aerial, Lucario actually has a very fast fair, I don't see how you could say he just has no response to it.

In theory that works but in practice you'd often just get outdisjointed by the really fat hitbox rosalina used to have. the only punish that worked was dash attack and even then it was inconsistent and required near instant reaction. It was actually kinda sad because nair was also what usually killed me in my matches against sunny because it was just that reliable in the matchup. and tbh they were the worst smash matches I've ever had.: get completely bodied by one move for four and half minutes -> win anyways because he air dodged into me and died to fsmash at 35%. But that's as much a lucario problem as a rosa one :I

 

[Clemente]

After the nerfs, I'm actually pretty happy with where Rosalina is (post patch, playing on Wii U).

For example, there's now (IMO) real incentive to going after Luma. How do R&L mains feel, and are you finding it tougher?