1.0.4 Changes and also apologies - LUMA CAN STILL HIT WHEN GRABBED

[Sup3rn00b]

Just tried her out in training mode. Movement and overall speed feels pretty much the same. I don't see why so many people are dropping her as a main.

 

[ChikoLad]

Just tried her out in training mode. Movement and overall speed feels pretty much the same. I don't see why so many people are dropping her as a main.

Me neither, she seems buffed all around. The nerfs feel much less significant than the buffs, IMO, especially for those who are skilled with the character.

 

[iimthomas]

Just tried her out in training mode. Movement and overall speed feels pretty much the same. I don't see why so many people are dropping her as a main.

felt normal to me in training ,but try it online please. it just feels off!

 

[Warlock*G]

felt normal to me in training ,but try it online please. it just feels off!

Sounds like lag is to blame and nothing else.

 

[ChikoLad]

felt normal to me in training ,but try it online please. it just feels off!

...you were probably suffering from poor latency issues or something.

 

[truecrisis]

Can anyone test her up-air kill potential? Maybe put Mario at top platform in battlefield and set % to 100+ and see what kills?

I heard u-air may have also lost priority... I used to use it to trump ganondorf / falcon down-b, and greninjas down-a.


EDIT: I have 1.0.3, from Battlefield top middle platform
She kills Mario
u-air: @130%, (and Luma @ 225%)
f-air: @200-210% (210% is more reliable) (and Luma @ 140%)

 

[ParanoidDrone]

To the best of my knowledge this is a complete list of (confirmed) Rosalina changes in 1.0.4:

• Luma takes longer to respawn (8 -> 13 seconds)
• Luma Shot covers 2/3 the distance when uncharged
• Luma returns to Rosalina faster when recalled
• Luma cannot attack once a throw animation starts, including command grabs; pummels can still be interrupted
• Nair does less damage (6%/10% -> 5%/7%) and knockback
• Usmash knockback is at a diagonal angle
• Dsmash has more endlag
• Grab has more endlag on whiff
• Dtilt no longer hits behind Rosalina

 

[NairWizard]

Nerfs to Rosalina:
- Luma timer
- Grab cooldown is longer, slightly
- D-smash has more cooldown
- Up-smash has a different angle, which makes surviving it easier (it's effectively the same as reducing knockback on most characters)
- Luma can't do anything in the middle of a throw animation (such as a command grab), so you can buffer a roll at the end of the animation before Luma can hit you sometimes, which is pretty cool
- N-air is weaker
- D-tilt is harder to use (need Luma)

And then her buffs are like n-air combo'ing better and so on, but honestly the nerfs are pretty significant. Yeah, I don't see how this character was buffed overall. It's definitely an overall nerf, but of these the Luma timer respawn is the most significant one. People are underestimating that nerf because a "skilled Rosalina can still do fine." That's true if the Rosalina has more skill than the opponent. But for two opponents of equal skill level, Rosalina is much worse with it imo.

Still, she's a great character; no one should be dropping her over these nerfs. It will only affect the tippy top of competitive play--so Dabuz dropping her makes sense. Others shouldn't be.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Forgot the dtilt hitbox nerf, silly me.

Even though we got more nerfs than buffs I don't think any of them are so outstandingly bad that we should be shopping around for new mains. Which is basically what you said.

 

[Krazy4Krash]

Here are two GIFs I made displaying the difference in Down Smash endlag. Forgive me for the wobbles, I'll be better next time.

Left is 1.0.3, Right is 1.0.4.

 

[truecrisis]

but of these the Luma timer respawn is the most significant one. People are underestimating that nerf because a "skilled Rosalina can still do fine." That's true if the Rosalina has more skill than the opponent. But for two opponents of equal skill level, Rosalina is much worse with it imo.

They did this because luma was too disposable. Now you have to actually care about him. Also now there is more incentive for an opponent to actually hunt him.

Here are two GIFs I made displaying the difference in Down Smash endlag. Forgive me for the wobbles, I'll be better next time.

Left is 1.0.3, Right is 1.0.4.

Nice gifs, I also noticed that the galaxies last longer too, so there might be a hidden buff in the hitboxes duration.

Tested on 1.0.3: vs Mario @center of FD sending Mario to the right wall
First galaxy kills @ 200 (luma first kick @ 190 )
2nd galaxy kills @160 (luma second kick @ 170 )

 

[Iron Kraken]

I'm curious about Rosalina's D-Tilt.

In 1.0.3, a D-Tilt make Rosalina & Luma hit in opposite directions. In 1.0.4, they still hit on opposite directions, but only if you hold down diagonally towards Rosalina's back.

My question is, holding diagonally in 1.0.4, is her D-tilt the same as it was in 1.0.3, or is it different?

 

[NairWizard]

I'm curious about Rosalina's D-Tilt.

In 1.0.3, a D-Tilt make Rosalina & Luma hit in opposite directions. In 1.0.4, they still hit on opposite directions, but only if you hold down diagonally towards Rosalina's back.

My question is, holding diagonally in 1.0.4, is her D-tilt the same as it was in 1.0.3, or is it different?

Her head is no longer a hitbox in 1.0.4., so it's been nerfed slightly, I think (I don't recall its being a hitbox before, actually)

 

[truecrisis]

Also luma does not hit in opposite directions by default on the d-tilt in 1.0.3
Its the same, have to tilt it a little.

Also this is only the case when hes tied to her, when he is free from her, he always goes the same direction as her.

 

[DanGR]

I think that's it. Only odd thing is it definitely was a little harder to KO Bowser with it earlier. Do heavier characters gain more of an advantage from "angled" attacks or something?

I don't know if it's in this game, but in Brawl survivability isn't as simple as "weight." It's categorized into horizontal and vertical endurance. Most characters' vertical endurance ranking is different from their horizontal endurance ranking. For example Brawl Lucario has the 11th best horizontal endurance and 16th best vertical endurance. And then you have to take into account vertical momentum canceling via aerial+fast fall, and horizontal momentum canceling via fastest aerial+jump, each of which vary with differing fast fall, aerial, and jump characteristics. I haven't bothered testing if these properties exist on the 3ds though.

edit: I've got a request for someone with access to both versions.

In 1.0.3, when Luma respawns, there's a small window of opportunity where you can input an attack and Luma will use the attack upon respawning (buffering?). I'm wondering if that window has been adjusted or otherwise removed in 1.0.4. Keep in mind an animation change(?) would potentially make it appear like it's been adjusted/removed.

 

[icraq]

I'm wondering now if Luma can't attack when Rosalina is in hitstun. I'm noticing a lot of times where I'm being thrown or hit where I used to be able to punish my opponent and not ebing able to anymore. Could be placebo.

Also running usmash without tap jump is harder in the initial frames of your dash. It seems about as easy with tap jump or doing a jump canceled dashed usmash. It might be impossible in the beginning of the dash, not the very beginning, you can still stutter step an usmash/fsmash, but once the dash begins.

edit: I'm hating this patch.

edit 2: I did notice luma shot is much better for "don't approach me" tacics. Nair feels nearly useless, though it's still okay in some situations.

 

[ChikoLad]

I think the buffs are more significant than the nerfs. The nerfs are literally just slaps on the wrist that will punish you a bit more of you play poorly, or are otherwise extremely minor in that they effect something that is a not a major part of her play style.

The buffs, however, make it flat out easier to play well, which makes the nerfs feel like they have less presence than they otherwise would. Luma's recall speed in particular just makes him so much harder to hit than before, making the respawn timer nerf feel very insignificant. I can also be much more aggro with Luma Shot now, because it has much less cool down, and I now have a short range Luma positioning tool.

Also I really love the new combo/follow up potential with N-air.

 

[icraq]

I think the buffs are more significant than the nerfs. The nerfs are literally just slaps on the wrist that will punish you a bit more of you play poorly, or are otherwise extremely minor in that they effect something that is a not a major part of her play style.

The buffs, however, make it flat out easier to play well, which makes the nerfs feel like they have less presence than they otherwise would. Luma's recall speed in particular just makes him so much harder to hit than before, making the respawn timer nerf feel very insignificant. I can also be much more aggro with Luma Shot now, because it has much less cool down, and I now have a short range Luma positioning tool.

Also I really love the new combo/follow up potential with N-air.

i'm stoked you're able to see this positively but i dont want anyone to think this is the general consensus.

nair was already low enough knockback at low percents that you could follow up with it, i used to do it pretty regularly, using dash attack, grab, usmash sometimes even.. it's about the same knockback at low percents, it just scales much slower at higher percents. and it's not lkie it's a true combo above like 0% for much of anything.

luma shot was never really a good move and being able to recall luma quicker doesn't help anything because it's generally a bad idea to throw luma out in the first place, especially with the respawn timer being extended. the cooldown compensates for it's inferior range and stage control.

also recalling luma was better when it was slow bcause you had more time to actually input an attack as it returned, now you have a very limited window in recalling luma.

her dtilt nerf is awful. dsmash being nerfed is just benefiting rollers more, yay for rolling. christ they love rolling.

her whiffed grab delay is AWFUL, uthrow to utilt to uair is like her #1 BEST WAY TO RACK UP DAMAGE.

nair is completely neutered. it was such a solid move, now i have to retrain myself to just not use it.

and the worst thing about this is no one will even care, they'll still cry about rosalina being OP because she's a weird character dynamic. this did nothing for the cmopetitive scene.

edit: oh and up smash, her one reliable kill move when solo was messed with for god knows why

 

[NairWizard]

The grab delay is a slight change, nothing that major from what I can gather. It doesn't prevent her from getting grabs.

The net effect of the patch is to make Rosalina less defensive and more aggro. It almost forces her to play aggressive because defensively holding on to Luma will just get you pressured and Lumaless, and then you're out of luck for 13 seconds.

But an aggro Rosalina is far, far easier for most characters to handle than a defensive one.

Thus, this patch is a nerf because more characters have a positive match-up vs. Rosalina than previously. But it's very clever of Nintendo to nerf in this way: they gave her some new strengths in an area where she is far less dominant than the likes of Diddy and Yoshi. It's cool, nothing to fret over imo. She won't drop to mid tier or anything with it.

 

[Iron Kraken]

I think the buffs are more significant than the nerfs. The nerfs are literally just slaps on the wrist that will punish you a bit more of you play poorly, or are otherwise extremely minor in that they effect something that is a not a major part of her play style.

The buffs, however, make it flat out easier to play well, which makes the nerfs feel like they have less presence than they otherwise would. Luma's recall speed in particular just makes him so much harder to hit than before, making the respawn timer nerf feel very insignificant. I can also be much more aggro with Luma Shot now, because it has much less cool down, and I now have a short range Luma positioning tool.

Also I really love the new combo/follow up potential with N-air.

So far I'm feeling an overall nerf. The power reduction of Nair is noticeable, and at least as of yet I haven't noticed any significantly better ability to follow up on its reduced knock back. Over the course of the match those 3/1% reductions in power are taking away a significant amount of the damage that I was racking up before with Nair.

The biggest thing I've noticed by far is that Luma's ability to attack immediately after a throw has been nerfed greatly. I used to be able to do this reliably. I don't think I've been able to do it once in 1.0.4. It's a pretty big deal. Although in fairness, this was by far the cheapest thing RosaLuma was able to do, and I think the change is justified. But at least Rosa can still avoid being pummeled.

There have been some instances when up-smash didn't get me the KO where it would have had before. I haven't really noticed the increased cool down of down-smash and grab yet, but those obviously won't be helping things.

The 3.8 second increase in Luma's respawn time... well, that is what it is. It's noticeable, but it's definitely not detrimental.

I will say this though: the improvements to Luma recall are really, really nice. Before, I often shied away from separating Luma for a couple of reasons. One was that I felt the Luma Shot sent out Luma too far, creating a situation where it was easy for the opponent to jump over Luma and avoid punishment. The decrease in distance from the Luma Shot is very welcome, as the spacing makes a lot more sense defensively. Now the opponent can't get in between Rosalina and Luma so easily.

The other reason I would often hesitate to send out Luma previously is because it was a disadvantage to have to find an opportunity to call back Luma, which if you're planning on separating Luma from you, is always needed. But often times I had to delay calling back Luma because I didn't want to risk being punished. The faster recall time makes things a lot easier.

So the combination of Luma's shorter separation distance and the faster Luma recall, overall, make separating Luma feel like a much improved option. It's definitely a buff, and it's also a more fun way to play RosaLuma as well.

So, overall...I don't think the patch changes are going to be changing our personal RosaLuma win rates by all that much. I feel like she's slightly nerfed overall, but not significantly nerfed as some are making it out to be, and as I initially feared when I heard about all the changes.

 

[ChikoLad]

i'm stoked you're able to see this positively but i dont want anyone to think this is the general consensus.

nair was already low enough knockback at low percents that you could follow up with it, i used to do it pretty regularly, using dash attack, grab, usmash sometimes even.. it's about the same knockback at low percents, it just scales much slower at higher percents. and it's not lkie it's a true combo above like 0% for much of anything.

luma shot was never really a good move and being able to recall luma quicker doesn't help anything because it's generally a bad idea to throw luma out in the first place, especially with the respawn timer being extended. the cooldown compensates for it's inferior range and stage control.

also recalling luma was better when it was slow bcause you had more time to actually input an attack as it returned, now you have a very limited window in recalling luma.

her dtilt nerf is awful. dsmash being nerfed is just benefiting rollers more, yay for rolling. christ they love rolling.

her whiffed grab delay is AWFUL, uthrow to utilt to uair is like her #1 BEST WAY TO RACK UP DAMAGE.

nair is completely neutered. it was such a solid move, now i have to retrain myself to just not use it.

and the worst thing about this is no one will even care, they'll still cry about rosalina being OP because she's a weird character dynamic. this did nothing for the cmopetitive scene.

All of Rosalina's other aerials were and still are the better KO moves, though. They simply increased that follow up potential on N-air, since it doesn't need to be a KO move at all anyway. And it still has enough knockback to be used as a "get away from me" tool if you wish.

Luma Shot doesn't have inferior range at all, it just has more variance depending on charge level. The new uncharged allows you to send Luma out just enough so that you can easily create very wide hit box combinations with their various attacks.

It's also easier to hit people with Luma on the way back if he is farther away, because he moves so fast. Luma essentially gained a direct approach option.

Other than that I've been playing Rosalina just the same as before. Holding onto Luma still works fine, no worse than before, so continue doing that if it works for you. I already sent Luma out sometimes, so they just made the more unpredictable part of my play style better and more effective in general.

 

[Iron Kraken]

i'm stoked you're able to see this positively but i dont want anyone to think this is the general consensus.

nair was already low enough knockback at low percents that you could follow up with it, i used to do it pretty regularly, using dash attack, grab, usmash sometimes even.. it's about the same knockback at low percents, it just scales much slower at higher percents. and it's not lkie it's a true combo above like 0% for much of anything.

luma shot was never really a good move and being able to recall luma quicker doesn't help anything because it's generally a bad idea to throw luma out in the first place, especially with the respawn timer being extended. the cooldown compensates for it's inferior range and stage control.

also recalling luma was better when it was slow bcause you had more time to actually input an attack as it returned, now you have a very limited window in recalling luma.

her dtilt nerf is awful. dsmash being nerfed is just benefiting rollers more, yay for rolling. christ they love rolling.

her whiffed grab delay is AWFUL, uthrow to utilt to uair is like her #1 BEST WAY TO RACK UP DAMAGE.

nair is completely neutered. it was such a solid move, now i have to retrain myself to just not use it.

and the worst thing about this is no one will even care, they'll still cry about rosalina being OP because she's a weird character dynamic. this did nothing for the cmopetitive scene.

edit: oh and up smash, her one reliable kill move when solo was messed with for god knows why

Nair is still really good. It's just not as good. Training yourself not to use it would be an absurd mistake. And as @ ChikoLad said, Nair was by far her weakest aerial KO even before the patch, so its loss in kill power isn't a big deal.

Rosa's D-Tilt still hits in both directions, but you need to push down at an angle, towards Rosa's back. It still seems very effective to me when you do it that way. For every D-Tilt you can choose whether you want Luma hitting in front of you or behind you. I'm not exactly sure how it compares to what existed in 1.0.3 overall, but it's still really good.

Luma Shot wasn't such a good move before, but for the reasons I mentioned in my previous post, I think it's much improved now.

 

[NairWizard]

So, overall...I don't think the patch changes are going to be changing our personal RosaLuma win rates by all that much. I feel like she's slightly nerfed overall, but not significantly nerfed as some are making it out to be, and as I initially feared when I heard about all the changes.

Just want to say that this is exactly why this is such a brilliant balance patch. It doesn't make Rosalina feel that much worse at most levels of play from the Rosalina side, but from the other side for many characters it's tons easier. It requires someone to be effective at playing his character and also at getting rid of Luma, however. As for the timer, you should keep in mind that most people don't know how to fight Rosalina, and that the timer will get more significant when you're facing players who do (I've said it many times but For Glory is kinda bad for meeting players who know what they're doing: practicing spacing there is legit though).

Facing some Rosalinas just now (offline), I found this matchup to be significantly easier as characters like Diddy, Marth, Peach, and even Sheik who was nerfed in KO power too. Space careful taps on Luma (watch out for Luma Shot now!) until he's gone. Safe f-airs from all of these characters are good choices. Rosalina's options to punish you for going in are all worse (d-tilt, d-smash, even grab: getting shieldgrabbed by Rosalina was the most frustrating thing, because sometimes you were trapped between her and Luma, and you couldn't avoid the shieldgrab), so you can more easily invade her space. This means that it's much easier to KO Luma than it was before, and the reward for doing so is greater, so you should definitely do it more.

I've also managed to get way more grabs off successfully without worrying about Luma as much thanks to the small nerf to the Luma knocking you out of a throw animation thing. As Diddy I can get command grabs and push up to jump off of her if Luma is near, for instance. Before, I would get hit. Many of the characters who struggled against Rosalina did so because grabs just weren't rewarding enough against her in many situations. It's easy to feel powerless against Rosalina's defense if she's sitting in her shield and you can't grab her and throw her out because Luma is right there. Now that Rosalina both can't sit in her shield as much AND throwing her successfully without getting punished is easier, you don't feel powerless at all. Indeed, you have numerous options.

This is a fairly substantial buff to characters *against* Rosalina, but Rosalina is still a good character. It's just a much fairer fight now for many characters.

Also up-smash is more nerfed than I thought it was: it used to be my go-to KO move. I had a little more trouble vs. Marth as Rosalina because of this, for instance, because I used to be able to punish Marth's difficulty landing (no n-air interrupt, slow d-air) fairly often and get the kill. It does make a difference: those tipper f-smashes kill you really early, so you need every bit of kill power that you can get.

 

[icraq]

Nair is still really good. It's just not as good. Training yourself not to use it would be an absurd mistake. And as @ ChikoLad said, Nair was by far her weakest aerial KO even before the patch, so its loss in kill power isn't a big deal.

Rosa's D-Tilt still hits in both directions, but you need to push down at an angle, towards Rosa's back. It still seems very effective to me when you do it that way. For every D-Tilt you can choose whether you want Luma hitting in front of you or behind you. I'm not exactly sure how it compares to what existed in 1.0.3 overall, but it's still really good.

Luma Shot wasn't such a good move before, but for the reasons I mentioned in my previous post, I think it's much improved now.

fair isn't exactly an easy move to line up for KOs, dair has very litlte horizontal, nair was one of your two methods of getting a kill when you were solo rosa. you could kill around 120-140%! now 1.0.4 upsmash doesn't even have as much power as nair used to. even if it didn't kill, it was a good enough move for getting your opponent off the stage and that is no longer the case. i am almost certain now the hitbox is smaller as well, which doesn't help things at all.

the dtilt thing i've known about for a long timeand it isnt always the best move you lose out on a lot of range from your front if you do the backwards luma attack. for example, you could perfectly space a nair before and dtilt right after and it would punish most character's roll options or safely poke their shield. your head would cover their roll towards you and luma would poke their shield at a safe distance. this is no longer possible and is a great loss to rosa's approach game.

i am still of the mind that nair does not provide better follow ups, as soon as 20-30% you can no longer follow up on it even in 1.0.4, which was pretty much identical in 1.0.3, it was only good as a first opening hit and you could possibly lead into it with a grab or an usmash or an ftilt or a dash attack. it's the same knockback essentially in lower percentages, but you only lose out at later percentages.

the only advantage from faster recall speed on luma is if you have luma VERY far away from you and you're able to get out an aerial as it returns, the hitbox on luma will cover more ground, but before you could start an aerial much sooner as luma was returning and actually aim it and you could set up smash attacks mid recall more easily. now your only option is to throw out a move and hope it hits as it returns to you, but odds are it wont because you can't actually aim it at anyone.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Just want to say that this is exactly why this is such a brilliant balance patch. It doesn't make Rosalina feel that much worse at most levels of play from the Rosalina side, but from the other side for many characters it's tons easier. It requires someone to be effective at playing his character and also at getting rid of Luma, however. As for the timer, you should keep in mind that most people don't know how to fight Rosalina, and that the timer will get more significant when you're facing players who do (I've said it many times but For Glory is kinda bad for meeting players who know what they're doing: practicing spacing there is legit though).

Facing some Rosalinas just now (offline), I found this matchup to be significantly easier as characters like Diddy, Marth, Peach, and even Sheik who was nerfed in KO power too. Space careful taps on Luma (watch out for Luma Shot now!) until he's gone. Safe f-airs from all of these characters are good choices. Rosalina's options to punish you for going in are all worse (d-tilt, d-smash, even grab: getting shieldgrabbed by Rosalina was the most frustrating thing, because sometimes you were trapped between her and Luma, and you couldn't avoid the shieldgrab), so you can more easily invade her space. This means that it's much easier to KO Luma than it was before, and the reward for doing so is greater, so you should definitely do it more.

I've also managed to get way more grabs off successfully without worrying about Luma as much thanks to the small nerf to the Luma knocking you out of a throw animation thing. As Diddy I can get command grabs and push up to jump off of her if Luma is near, for instance. Before, I would get hit. Many of the characters who struggled against Rosalina did so because grabs just weren't rewarding enough against her in many situations. It's easy to feel powerless against Rosalina's defense if she's sitting in her shield and you can't grab her and throw her out because Luma is right there. Now that Rosalina both can't sit in her shield as much AND throwing her successfully without getting punished is easier, you don't feel powerless at all. Indeed, you have numerous options.

This is a fairly substantial buff to characters *against* Rosalina, but Rosalina is still a good character. It's just a much fairer fight now for many characters.

Also up-smash is more nerfed than I thought it was: it used to be my go-to KO move. I had a little more trouble vs. Marth as Rosalina because of this, for instance, because I used to be able to punish Marth's difficulty landing (no n-air interrupt, slow d-air) fairly often and get the kill. It does make a difference: those tipper f-smashes kill you really early, so you need every bit of kill power that you can get.

Well match ups are a zero sum game, so if you think the patch makes things much easier for opponents, then in essence you're saying that Rosalina has become much worse. Things can't be both much easier for the opponent and not so bad for Rosalina.

And I respect your opinion on that. I definitely think the Rosalina nerfs are significant, but not detrimental.

 

[icraq]

and something i should note is i think nair's knockback scaling was reduced, not it's overall knockback. some moves scale very strangely, like luma's utilt will knock opponents very high at 0% but it scales very poorly, it won't KO until, well it used to be 140% or so, im not sure what it is now, im guessing worse since thats around when usmash kills now.

so nair still has about the same knockback at low percents but scales worse at higher percents. upsmash is similar, you can't combo upsmash any better now than you could before.

 

[NairWizard]

Well match ups are a zero sum game, so if you think the patch makes things much easier for opponents, then in essence you're saying that Rosalina has become much worse. Things can't be both much easier for the opponent and not so bad for Rosalina.

And I respect your opinion on that. I definitely think the Rosalina nerfs are significant, but not detrimental.

While it's true that more characters have positive match-ups against Rosalina now, she also has new tools which give her some more positive match-ups too. I think that's she worse overall, but not by a lot, maybe 4-5 places if we have to do tier list math (that's not very many places in a game with such tight balance).

And what I mean by "not so bad for Rosalina" is that, while other characters now have more options against her, she also has new options against them. Match-up ratios are zero-sum, but they don't tell the whole story imo: actual match-up dynamics fluctuate on a match-to-match basis as players adapt and counter-adapt (optimal option selects change based on player behavior: if your opponent grabs in 30% of situations compared to, say, an average of 15%, then shield becomes a less optimal option selection, even if shield is really good for your character and is one of the reasons that the match-up is deemed to be "favorable").

During the first stock of a Diddy vs. Rosalina match, it could be 60:40 Diddy, but on the second stock, once Rosalina adapts to what the Diddy player is doing, it could be 60:40 Rosalina. Before, Diddy couldn't swing the match into that 60:40 Diddy situation very easily. Now, he can. But that's not to say that Rosalina can't swing it back and make the match-up 60:40 Rosalina just as easily; in fact, maybe she can do that more often than not. Adapting is easier for Diddy now, but how easy the ratio is to swing in a particular match against a particular player doesn't affect the overall ratio imo.

Example: I think that smash 4 Ike is better vs. Yoshi than smash 4 Marth, in a match-up ratio sense. But that's just the general case: Ike's best options (f-air, jab) are better than Marth's best options (f-air, side-b) against Yoshi's best options, but as a real human Yoshi player I won't necessarily be using Yoshi's best options, because I know that my opponent will be trying to counter those options. It's definitely easier for me to adapt to any particular Ike, because Ike is so much slower and leaves more room for adaptation (getting "outplayed" in other words). How easy it is to adapt is some intangible x factor in smash and fighting games. Ratios are just about optimal option selects, imo.

If this sounds like a mess it's probably because it's so late at night, so you'll have to forgive me for that.

Anyway, this patch was so great that I kind of want to pick Rosalina up again. The gameplay style being encouraged by this patch is definitely cool and will make Rosalina matches more interesting to watch, for sure.

 

[truecrisis]

I still have 1.0.3, I just tried up smash on Mario FD from the respawn point. He dies at 118% both at the front of the attack, and from her head arching backwards.

Since some people are saying Mario might be heavier in 1.0.4, i also did this with Zelda, who dies at 108%

If you dont test before me on 1.0.4 I'll test later. But I hear that theres no nerf to her upsmash - just the trajectory changed. Also I can say that most of my upsmashes in 1.0.3 went straight up, but depending on where it connected, it did sometimes send them at about 10 degrees to an angle.

Edit: Zelda is now 123%
And Mario is 133%

 

[Steam]

someone data mined the patch and APPARENTLY...

Rosalina's base knockback on F-Smash is reduced
The first few hits of Rosalina's F-Air received some knockback growth

http://www.twitch.tv/dantarion

you can find under past broadcasts.

 

[ChikoLad]

I still have 1.0.3, I just tried up smash on Mario FD from the respawn point. He dies at 118% both at the front of the attack, and from her head arching backwards.

Since some people are saying Mario might be heavier in 1.0.4, i also did this with Zelda, who dies at 108%

If you dont test before me on 1.0.4 I'll test later. But I hear that theres no nerf to her upsmash - just the trajectory changed. Also I can say that most of my upsmashes in 1.0.3 went straight up, but depending on where it connected, it did sometimes send them at about 10 degrees to an angle.

I already tested yesterday, and it is just the angle that changed. Bare minimum KO percentage on Mario for the uncharged is 135%, bare minimum for fully charged is 95%. Which is the same as before.

Anyway, I'm still going to wait and see about how Rosalina does in the future, and on Wii U specifically. I'm feeling too many buffs to her to think she is nerfed overall, I've overall just been playing better no matter the opponent. I think people are just being presumptuous or need to adapt still. Changes are changes, so not everything that worked before will now. But in exchange, many new things are possible that might become potentially better than what we lost. So I'm not worried about dropping tiers or anything like that.

 

[truecrisis]

someone data mined the patch and APPARENTLY...

Rosalina's base knockback on F-Smash is reduced
The first few hits of Rosalina's F-Air received some knockback growth



you can find under past broadcasts.

F-smash kills mario at 123 from center of FD on 1.0.3
Edit: Updated to 1.0.4 and its now 129-130

 

[Dabuz]

So like, Rosa is worse for sure. Not significantly worse though, her biggest nerf IMO is downsmash, it's no longer a very spammable move that does everything.

The Luma shot buff is being super underrated, it basically replaces dsmash not in terms of utility, but how useful it is as a whole.

Return speed buff is definitely amazing, it really makes Rosa harder to pressure while Luma is living.

Don't mind the Luma being gone longer, TBH it kind of helps because in situations where I would lose Luma, I felt like 8.5 seconds was a bit too early for it to come back/ often times i wouldn't have strong stage presence yet.

Upsmash nerf is...weird. With Luma is basically always means both hits connect, without Luma, well, it stinks.

Nair nerf is horrid, that move is one of her BnB moves. Dtilt nerf isn't too bad, I find using dtilt super close is a recipe to get punished anyway.

Someone mentioned Fair got buffed based on data mining, that I can believe and it explains why lately I can fair someone, land mid move, and not get jabbed for free, heck, fair -> jab can COMBO now, and sometimes the first or second hit of fair causes a weak launch effect, definitely not possible pre-patch.

Can't use Luma while in the middle of a throw, hurts in some MUs (sheik and rob most notably in my experience)

Still think this character is a completely viable pick at top levels of play, will probably be maining her until Apex 2015, then re-evaluate her afterwards.

 

[truecrisis]

apparently from the video the upsmash angle is the same at 86 degrees
But the knockback went from 100 to 90, so its 10% weaker

you can see this at 31:57 on twitch.tv/dantarion/b/590460042

 

[icraq]

something Dantarion showed was also a knock back reduction with Fsmash, but no info on Luma's changes.

edit2: fair's second hit is what got significant knock back growth. it can spike now, if you just hit with the escon dattack it will slam your opponent into the stage or off the stage if you're lucky.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

About the grab lag thing, is it for if Rosalina misses her grab? I need some more specifics on that.

F-smash kills mario at 123 from center of FD on 1.0.3
Edit: Updated to 1.0.4 and its now 129-130

I'm quite sure that Mario needed more damage than 123% for Rosalina to potentially KO him from Final Destination's center with an uncharged forward smash.

 

[truecrisis]

I'm quite sure that Mario needed more damage than 123% for Rosalina to potentially KO him from Final Destination's center with an uncharged forward smash.

I'm not going off of memory or anything, I did it in front of my computer before sending the message.
If he needed more damage at 1.0.3, and in 1.0.4 its 130%... yet it was nerfed... how does that add up?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I'm not going off of memory or anything, I did it in front of my computer before sending the message.
If he needed more damage at 1.0.3, and in 1.0.4 its 130%... yet it was nerfed... how does that add up?

It does depend on the adversary's knockback resistance. Mario can still be KO'd by Rosalina's uncharged up smash when he has over 135% damage, but Bowser takes longer to KO with up smash than before.

 

[icraq]

About the grab lag thing, is it for if Rosalina misses her grab? I need some more specifics on that.

I can't honestly say but bunzy said he compared the standing grab when missed. Apparently it's slower to recover from. I don't know that affects dash grab too, but I think so.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I can't honestly say but bunzy said he compared the standing grab when missed. Apparently it's slower to recover from. I don't know that affects dash grab too, but I think so.

I see, so you obviously have to be more careful when grabbing, since if you miss it, opponents may punish you more easily for failing to grab them.

 

[Lavani]

Reminder that you'll get percents where something may or may not KO the CPU depending on what it decides to do when hit. Launch Speed's more consistent to look at.

Rosalina fsmash vs 150% Mario
1.0.1: 154
1.0.4: 149

So it was slightly nerfed.