1.0.4 Changes and also apologies - LUMA CAN STILL HIT WHEN GRABBED

[icraq]

So 1.0.4 is out, go grab it and start testing. I need someone with 1.0.3 to confirm some damage tests and possibly KB test if they can, but

First thing's first I WAS WRONG Rosalina CAN still attack with Luma whilst Rosalina is being grabbed. I am very sorry for that, it was irresponsible for me to make a post without confirming it myself, it's very unlike me. I can only chalk up my mistake to a couple things, one being "Playing Smash 4 wii u for the first time hype", it was overwhelming, and I was looking for nerfs. The other reason being possibly it was a different version I played, but several other people there read the same tool tip as me and we briefly discussed it. Again, very sorry, I should have noted in my original post that there was a possibility I was wrong due to the previously listed reasons.

Anyways, I have noticed some things already that appear different and this is why I'm writing this post. Nair used to do 10 damage when it connected at Rosalina's heels, and now it does 7. If it always did 7 someone please confirm with 1.0.3. Also it seems Luma's damage has been lowered by 1 on all it's attacks but I'm pretty unsure about this. Right now fair is 5 dmg, nair front hit is 4 and back is 3, dair is 5, bair is 4, uair is 4.

Also Rosalina's nair, when landed at the heels, used to kill at high percents. As a test, someone please go into the omega jungle japes in training mode and land your nair on Zelda where she spawns when you reset the map and see what percents kill her horizontally. For me its about 170% in 1.0.4. I think it used to kill around 140.

I'm going to continue to edit this with things for people with 1.0.3 to test.


Edit:

More stuff to test:

Rising nair fast falled and dtilt on landing, does Luma attack with Rosalina in the dtilt on landing or is it still stuck in the nair animation? I don't remember that

Dtilt with both Rosalina and Luma connected, what's the total dmg in 1.0.3? It's 8 total in 1.0.4, but Rosa does only 4 by herself and Luma does 3 solo, so they must be 4.5 and 3.5.

THINGS THAT ARE STILL IN:

Luma's infinite spin is still in and all the setups previously discovered to initiate it
Autocanceling Luma aerials
short hop double dair stlil in
rosalina can still control luma's dtilt direction on the control pad
rosalina can still do canceled dash attack grab's with luma

 

[ChikoLad]

No worries about your mistake. Main thing is that he can still attack while Rosalina is being grabbed, and that's cool!

Look forward to seeing what's changed. I cannot test anything now though, as I am in college and cannot download the patch despite having my 3DS and Smash with me.

 

[icraq]

No worries about your mistake. Main thing is that he can still attack while Rosalina is being grabbed, and that's cool!

Look forward to seeing what's changed. I cannot test anything now though, as I am in college and cannot download the patch despite having my 3DS and Smash with me.

thank you very much for understanding!

if you can, please test what i've asked before you update! i fear most people will update immediately, but it seems like this patch has changed a great deal of things, especially for rosalina's aerial game. a lot of damages seem to be changed in .5% increments but i can't say anything for certain until we get some testers on board.

 

[ChikoLad]

I have class right now, but I will test whatever I can as soon as I get a chance.

 

[Krazy4Krash]

My brother has updated to 1.0.4 on his system and I am still on 1.0.3, so I can make very direct comparisons on my own for the time-being. Anyone let me know if they want anything specific tested regarding Rosalina.

 

[ChikoLad]

My brother has updated to 1.0.4 on his system and I am still on 1.0.3, so I can make very direct comparisons on my own for the time-being. Anyone let me know if they want anything specific tested regarding Rosalina.

I will be able to do the same later myself. But the easiest thing to check is the damage outputs on both Rosalina's moves and Luma's moves, and then check knockback.

EDIT: Did some tests (within 1.0.3):

-Rosalina N-air did KO Zelda like the OP said at 140%.
-Luma's damage is the same as the 1.0.4 values described.
-Rosalina N-air does 10%.

 

[icraq]

I will be able to do the same later myself. But the easiest thing to check is the damage outputs on both Rosalina's moves and Luma's moves, and then check knockback.

EDIT: Did some tests (within 1.0.3):

-Rosalina N-air did KO Zelda like the OP said at 140%.
-Luma's damage is the same as the 1.0.4 values described.
-Rosalina N-air does 10%.

That's huge. And disappointing.
Thank you.

 

[icraq]

My brother has updated to 1.0.4 on his system and I am still on 1.0.3, so I can make very direct comparisons on my own for the time-being. Anyone let me know if they want anything specific tested regarding Rosalina.

something important is her dtilt, it MAY have been buffed by .5%, i heard it uesd to do 7% when both luma and rosalina hit simultaneously but now it does 8% when combined, meaning rosa does 4.5% and luma does 3.5 now. but test every move if you can and let us know! if you're interested

 

[otter]

we may have escaped this patch.

 

[ChikoLad]

That's huge. And disappointing.
Thank you.

Sabina has found some great buffs for Luma though in the "Upcoming Patch 1.0.4" thread, so check those out (can't post links, on my phone).

 

[icraq]

we may have escaped this patch.

the noobs are easily startled but they will soon be back and in greater numbers.

Sabina has found some great buffs for Luma though in the "Upcoming Patch 1.0.4" thread, so check those out (can't post links, on my phone).

I found something from Bunzy but I'm skeptical about some of it, the cooldowns on grab/dsmash mostly, I couldn't find anything by Sabina

 

[-Jax]

So 1.0.4 is out, go grab it and start testing. I need someone with 1.0.3 to confirm some damage tests and possibly KB test if they can, but

First thing's first I WAS WRONG Rosalina CAN still attack with Luma whilst Rosalina is being grabbed. I am very sorry for that, it was irresponsible for me to make a post without confirming it myself, it's very unlike me. I can only chalk up my mistake to a couple things, one being "Playing Smash 4 wii u for the first time hype", it was overwhelming, and I was looking for nerfs. The other reason being possibly it was a different version I played, but several other people there read the same tool tip as me and we briefly discussed it. Again, very sorry, I should have noted in my original post that there was a possibility I was wrong due to the previously listed reasons.

Anyways, I have noticed some things already that appear different and this is why I'm writing this post. Nair used to do 10 damage when it connected at Rosalina's heels, and now it does 7. If it always did 7 someone please confirm with 1.0.3. Also it seems Luma's damage has been lowered by 1 on all it's attacks but I'm pretty unsure about this. Right now fair is 5 dmg, nair front hit is 4 and back is 3, dair is 5, bair is 4, uair is 4.

Also Rosalina's nair, when landed at the heels, used to kill at high percents. As a test, someone please go into the omega jungle japes in training mode and land your nair on Zelda where she spawns when you reset the map and see what percents kill her horizontally. For me its about 170% in 1.0.4. I think it used to kill around 140.

I'm going to continue to edit this with things for people with 1.0.3 to test.


Edit:

More stuff to test:

Rising nair fast falled and dtilt on landing, does Luma attack with Rosalina in the dtilt on landing or is it still stuck in the nair animation? I don't remember that

Dtilt with both Rosalina and Luma connected, what's the total dmg in 1.0.3? It's 8 total in 1.0.4, but Rosa does only 4 by herself and Luma does 3 solo, so they must be 4.5 and 3.5.

THINGS THAT ARE STILL IN:

Luma's infinite spin is still in and all the setups previously discovered to initiate it
Autocanceling Luma aerials
short hop double dair stlil in
rosalina can still control luma's dtilt direction on the control pad
rosalina can still do canceled dash attack grab's with luma

Kudos to you for admitting you're wrong!

These seem acceptable changes, I can't recall ever dying to nair against Rosalina & Luma, but taking away one of her killing options might have been something she needed. Though I think this doesn't change the core strengths she has, which is good, as she isn't as broken as people make her out to be once you learn the matchup.

Does Luma still have the same amount of HP in 1.0.4?

 

[ChikoLad]

Kudos to you for admitting you're wrong!

These seem acceptable changes, I can't recall ever dying to nair against Rosalina & Luma, but taking away one of her killing options might have been something she needed. Though I think this doesn't change the core strengths she has, which is good, as she isn't as broken as people make her out to be once you learn the matchup.

Does Luma still have the same amount of HP in 1.0.4?

According to dabunzz, Luma has 15 more HP than before.

 

[icraq]

Kudos to you for admitting you're wrong!

These seem acceptable changes, I can't recall ever dying to nair against Rosalina & Luma, but taking away one of her killing options might have been something she needed. Though I think this doesn't change the core strengths she has, which is good, as she isn't as broken as people make her out to be once you learn the matchup.

Does Luma still have the same amount of HP in 1.0.4?

according to bunzy luma was buffed by 15 HP. i tested independently along with another member of this forums and we both concluded it was still 50hp.

her nair wasn't a great killing tool but it was good for setting up edgeguards still. considering nair is one of rosalina's bread n butter moves, especially solo, this seems to be a case of broad stroke balancing.

 

[Smasher89]

So basicly shooting luma out, close to emidiatly makes luma in wanting to get in position for the stance, and lumas travelspeed when called back is higher. Shorter luma distance seems to be more ideal for lumashot upair,/uptilt, and the dair at the edge sweetspot.

 

[DanGR]

I'd like to see differences in startup and cooldown on fsmash and dsmash.
Also, the range on fsmash (angled?)

 

[icraq]

I'd like to see differences in startup and cooldown on fsmash and dsmash.
Also, the range on fsmash (angled?)

me too, but i think those are the hardest things to test. he claimed rosa's grab cooldown was increased too.

i dont see any good things for rosalina here at all honestly.

 

[ChikoLad]

me too, but i think those are the hardest things to test. he claimed rosa's grab cooldown was increased too.

i dont see any good things for rosalina here at all honestly.

N-air knockback being decreased is a good thing if you ask me. Means you can follow up better, specifically with F-air, which always was the better KO move.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

I can confirm due to being a weird person that Launch Star Attack does 12 damage now instead of 13. It has 6 combo hits instead of 7 previously. Weird change to make, but it's there.

I think that SoRo's Usmash doesn't hit quite as hard as it used to...? That needs testing to make sure I'm not just imagining that one.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I do recall that the n-air couldn't KO Mario at the stage's center unless he had over 175% damage. If Zelda needs to take more damage to be KO'd now, then Mario might need to have over 205% damage to get KO'd by n-air.

Someone might want to use Mario as the test subject, as he's the fighter that I used to get the KO potential estimates.

 

[Krazy4Krash]

I tested Rosalina's aerials in both versions and the only one that's any different is her nair. In 1.0.3, it does 6% damage sour and 10% sweet, and the sweetspot kills Ganondorf from the top platform of Battlefield at 175%. In 1.0.4, it does 5% sour and 7% sweet, and doesn't kill Ganondorf from the same position until AT LEAST 220% when sweetspotted. This was all done in training mode.

From what I can tell, all of her other aerials are the same. Forward aerial does four hits equaling 7% (1, 1, 1, 4), bair always does 11%, uair has a bunch of hitboxes that do 10%, 5% or 2%, and dair is similar to uair, but has hitboxes of 8%, 7%, 6% and 2% (I think). No noticeable knockback changes on any of these.

EDIT: Reading the post above me, I will check nair sweetspot kill percents on Mario.

 

[icraq]

was the knockback messed with on luma's dair? i feel like it was, but i recognize how difficult it would be to test, since it has so many strange properties to it.

thanks for doin all this testing krazy. oh and test dtilt for me, make sure both rosa and luma hit at the same time, please

 

[Smasher89]

From the play ive done today, most of my matches where closer to timeouts, i dont like these changes since it not only promotes, it rewards campy play
Maybe thats why 9B and Rain quit the character, they prob got to play the wii u version.

 

[icraq]

From the play ive done today, most of my matches where closer to timeouts, i dont like these changes since it not only promotes, it rewards campy play
Maybe thats why 9B and Rain quit the character, they prob got to play the wii u version.

she definitely feels slower to me as well, and less fun.
i feel like nair is weaker in some other way besides just dmg/kb but i cant put my finger on it, range or priority or something.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I've always separated the amount of damage that Rosalina & Luma dealt with their attacks. If there really are some decimal value damage ranges, they're most like rounded up to the nearest integer.

 

[icraq]

I've always separated the amount of damage that Rosalina & Luma dealt with their attacks. If there really are some decimal value damage ranges, they're most like rounded up to the nearest integer.

in 1.0.4 individually rosalina does 4% and luma does 3%, together they do 8%
someone said it was 7% total in 1.0.3
if so, what a weird buff

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

in 1.0.4 individually rosalina does 4% and luma does 3%, together they do 8%
someone said it was 7% total in 1.0.3
if so, what a weird buff

Those are the exact same damage values that I've got on my end, and this was before the patch was even announced.

Anyway, am I to understand that Rosalina's movement speed has been tampered with as well?

 

[Smasher89]

No, just the gamelenght due to less good killmoves and damage overall+ waittime for luma.

 

[icraq]

right by slower i meant more in a general sense. way more cautious. i definitely feel luma's absence when i need a KO. it hurts. and nair is a pretty big loss, im not even sure about whether i should use it much anymore.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

right by slower i meant more in a general sense. way more cautious. i definitely feel luma's absence when i need a KO. it hurts. and nair is a pretty big loss, im not even sure about whether i should use it much anymore.

Since some of Smash Wii U's controller options have an additional Control Stick, inputting certain aerials will likely be easier to accomplish.

 

[Krazy4Krash]

@Mario_and_Sonic_Guy
In 1.0.3, a sweetspotted nair kills Mario on the right platform of Battlefield at 147%. In 1.0.4, it's 190%.

@icraq
It's hard to be consistent with Luma's dair, partly due to Luma Shot's changes that makes identical placement in both versions quite difficult to achieve. In 1.0.3, I started from the default training mode set-up on Battlefield, shorthopped, did an uncharged Luma Shot, then shorthopped again and performed a down aerial. Luma killed Mario at 152%.
In 1.0.4, I jumped up to the top platform, rolled left, used Luma Shot, then fell through the platform and performed a down aerial. This placement of Luma killed Mario at 152% as well. Due to this, it is to my belief Luma's dair is unchanged until somebody convinces me otherwise.

Regarding dtilt, it is to my understanding it is the same in both versions. It does 4% when Rosalina hits on her own, 3% when Luma hits on his own, but 8% together. I don't know where the extra 1% comes from. Does Luma's dtilt have two hitboxes?

 

[icraq]

@ Krazy4Krash you're awesome, thanks for going through the trouble of testing dair, I realized it would be a pain but I'm comforted to know my favorite gimp is still gimpy. Dtilt I believe is just 3.5 and 4.5 added together, making 8. Thanks for testing! That's a huge difference on Mario there, yeesh.

Also @ Mario & Sonic Guy I've wondered how she could be played differently. But really I don't see anything possible with a c-stick that would be great. Retreating fair might be okay but I can't imagine that, and fast fall uairs are the other possibility? I don't see a huge advantage gained for Rosalina.

However I am super stoked to test around and see if it's possible to desynch luma in other interesting ways with the cstick!

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

@Mario_and_Sonic_Guy
In 1.0.3, a sweetspotted nair kills Mario on the right platform of Battlefield at 147%. In 1.0.4, it's 190%.

What about the stage's center? Test to see how much damage Mario needs before the n-air can KO him from the center of Final Destination or any Omega Form stage.

 

[Nstinct]

One thing I noticed from training was that the Luma Shot (neutral-b) end hitbox is gone. On training mode I kept hitting Mario with Luma when trying to space to try Luma's attacks, but on 1.0.4 Luma can end through Mario without harming him.

 

[Krazy4Krash]

What about the stage's center? Test to see how much damage Mario needs before the n-air can KO him from the center of Final Destination or any Omega Form stage.

On Omega Rainbow Road, it kills Mario from the centre at 165% in version 1.0.3. In 1.0.4, it kills at 213% in the same circumstances.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

On Omega Rainbow Road, it kills Mario from the centre at 165% in version 1.0.3. In 1.0.4, it kills at 213% in the same circumstances.

Odd. Mario survived when he had over 165% damage from the stage center when I did the tests. It wasn't until his damage went over 175% that it was a guaranteed KO.

 

[Krazy4Krash]

Odd. Mario survived when he had over 165% damage from the stage center when I did the tests. It wasn't until his damage went over 175% that it was a guaranteed KO.

That is odd. I did it in Training mode, ensured Mario was in the centre by KOing him first (thus having him stand right beneath his spawn point) and made sure the sweetspot hit by checking the damage indicator on the top screen (which should say 10% in 1.0.3 or 7% in 1.0.4).

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

That is odd. I did it in Training mode, ensured Mario was in the centre by KOing him first (thus having him stand right beneath his spawn point) and made sure the sweetspot hit by checking the damage indicator on the top screen (which should say 10% in 1.0.3 or 7% in 1.0.4).

It pays to test this multiple times. You'll know that you're getting somewhere if Mario gets KO'd before he tries to do his mid-air jump.

 

[Nat Goméz]

Apparently Luma's recall speed after Luma Shot is buffed, can anybody confirm this? Like you send Luma away and when you call him he comes to Mama faster.

 

[iiGGYxD]

Apparently Luma's recall speed after Luma Shot is buffed, can anybody confirm this? Like you send Luma away and when you call him he comes to Mama faster.

That is confirmed. Luma shot distance is shorter. dsmash cooldown is longer.