˚ PEACH ˚ Updated! 9/6/2014

[DrakeRowan]

I haven't seen anything on how the online is in Smash 4 3DS - is it better than Brawl?

A lot of people find the 3ds online is FAR better than brawls was atm. They are some periods of lag, but I'm thinking that's largely due to people's ISPs and stuff.

 

[Gerpington]

Lolol why. The pole dancing?

Fine then

Haruhi suzumiya can replace her

Palutena is cool and all but I think rosalina is better imo. Actually peach wins

Yes, but we are speaking in terms of deities and as much as I hate to admit it, Peach is a mortal.

Rosalina isn't a goddess, she just learned how to use the powers of space and time as an age serum. Smart girl she is.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

A lot of people find the 3ds online is FAR better than brawls was atm. They are some periods of lag, but I'm thinking that's largely due to people's ISPs and stuff.

Ok cool thanks for letting me know As someone from the UK, games online with people overseas were essentially unplayable...so fingers crossed that won't be the case so much this time around...

 

[LucinaSuitSamus]

Wow, October 3rd just CAN'T come quick enough!

I'm way too excited for this! I just wanna play as Peach already! Peach not being in the demo breaks my heart.

 

[Gerpington]

Ok cool thanks for letting me know As someone from the UK, games online with people overseas were essentially unplayable...so fingers crossed that won't be the case so much this time around...

I've seen videos of people playing for glory (from america) with players that are obviously from japan (as most for glory players likely are) and the lag was barely noticeable or lasted only a second at a time and happened rarely.

I think you are in the clear, dear.

 

[Camalange]

We'll see how the online fairs when more of the world actually has the game and swarms the servers.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I'm actually am trying to figure out if there is a way you can copy ones SD card file onto yours and play their games. This would make it easier for a lot of people to get their hands on the game quicker

 

[~momentai~]

The demo is such a tease! All those characters and stages just sitting there begging to be selected
The screen size and the controls are so easy to adjust to, I was pretty worried about the size but it's actually just fine.
Nice to see the cpus are still crazy. At 70 percent they barely let me get a bash off of them before they mash out of a grab.
Megaman and Villager will take some getting used to, they have some unorthodox moves lol. It's funny seeing Villager put Pikachu's thunder jolt in his pocket. Link and Pikachu feel great. Link's new dash attack feels so weird though. Pikachu's new fsmash animation is adorable. Mario feels fun to play too but his moves feel like they don't have as much range as they used to, especially his standing grab and jab. I think he'll still be be fun to team with~
Time to go to the Mario boards and snag me a man for dubz

@ Uncle Peach- that isn't possible, pretty sure games saved to an sd card are linked to a single nintendo id; if you put it in another 3ds it will not show the game.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Yea, I just found out.

 

[~momentai~]

Wish it were possible though. That's one major disadvantage compared to the hard copy. With those they're good to go from any 3DS.

 

[Alacion]

http://morchudat.tumblr.com/post/97705258893/beginning-smash-4-thoughts

Obviously it's a bit early but still something to discuss

 

[ZeroBlindDragon]

I immediately stopped when I read "Bowser".

 

[Alacion]

Seriously? Bowser is hella amazing definitely a top tier at the moment.

 

[ihskeyp]

Seriously? Bowser is hella amazing definitely a top tier at the moment.

That's what people said about Ike when the Brawl came out. You have to wait at LEAST a year or maybe half a year for a somewhat reliable tier list.

 

[Alacion]

Well I *did* say it was a bit early and I also said "at the moment".

 

[ihskeyp]

Well I *did* say it was a bit early and I also said "at the moment".

Yeah, I was just pointing out that Bowser is easy to pick up this time, like Ike was in Brawl. The tier list is interesting though, wish he would've gone more into depth but I'm very happy with Zelda's placement. I hope Peach ends up being higher, though.

 

[ZeroBlindDragon]

I apologize for my initial reply, @ Alacion ! I will make a proper reply this time around.

Of course, I read the whole tier list. Personally, I have to say I disagree with most of the placements, including Bowser's. He remains a large target and I strongly believe Peach and many other characters will maintain an advantageous match-up against him.

Only the "F-Tier" (bottom) appears to be more plausible, but I'm pretty sure I am wrong! Mega Man, based from the demo, appears to be a fighter with very limited options and his projectiles are completely walled by Link. Ganondorf seems to be relatively unchanged from Brawl and Falco appears to have received significant nerfs to justify this placement.

There are also other things affecting the tier list, like starter stages, counterpicks and above all else, custom moves. Plus, there are also many skilled players who did not touch the full game yet. Amsa, for example, showed how good of a character Yoshi could be in Melee.

 

[Alacion]

Eh no worries I took you a bit too seriously too.

Bowser might go the way of King Dedede... amazing at first but people learn to deal with him. He'll still be good but maybe not the best? As for Amsa, I think it may be a case of a decent character in the hands of somebody skilled. I can't see Peach ever being low tier and I think her placement in that particular, preemptive tier list is a bit low.

 

[ZeroBlindDragon]

@ Alacion : I did not want to hurt a fellow Canadian. >w< That would be the last thing I'd ever want to do!

And I completely agree with your statement! There are relatively few Peach players now so it might be why her placement is lower than expected. However, I am absolutely positive she's *at least* a solid middle tier character. It will be our job to make her high or top tier!

 

[Meru.]

Why are Smashers so obsessed with tier lists? The game hasn't been out for 10 days even. It's impossible to make an accurate tier list for 51 characters in such a short time. As far as tier lists are concerned we are for now only able to stick to superficial claims like "this character is mid at best" or "probably not that good" or "probably one of the best" and that's not enough to create an entire tier list of.

 

[Gerpington]

Why are Smashers so obsessed with tier lists? The game hasn't been out for 10 days even. It's impossible to make an accurate tier list for 51 characters in such a short time. As far as tier lists are concerned we are for now only able to stick to superficial claims like "this character is mid at best" or "probably not that good" or "probably one of the best" and that's not enough to create an entire tier list of.

Weare in the early days, my favorite days of any fighting game. The days people choose a character they like and get real good with them. Enjoy this time.

Because as soon as it's gone for glory will probably be a hoard of fights that are just the top 2-3 on the most popular tier list. We will actually see character diversity for a while and I'm excited.

You should be too.

 

[DrakeRowan]

I'd like to see a Peach Video Compilation Thread up soon. I'd do it myself, but I rather not be responsible of keeping it updated, especially to what happened to the Peach Tourney Results thread in Brawl.

 

[Hitzel]

My beef with Smash tier lists is that they are an arbitrary list of characters from best to worst instead of a matchup chart. A matchup chart is much less subjective and much more useful.

Aside from that there's nothing wrong with tier lists, since they are a current representation of how well characters are thought to be doing and don't actually do anything negative to anyone.

 

[DrakeRowan]

My beef with Smash tier lists is that they are an arbitrary list of characters from best to worst instead of a matchup chart. A matchup chart is much less subjective and much more useful.

Aside from that there's nothing wrong with tier lists, since they are a current representation of how well characters are thought to be doing and don't actually do anything negative to anyone.

If only people viewed these initial "tier lists" simply as a opinionated list of what the poster feels are the best characters from a glance, then there would be no problem. -_-.

 

[Meru.]

My beef with Smash tier lists is that they are an arbitrary list of characters from best to worst instead of a matchup chart. A matchup chart is much less subjective and much more useful.

I don't agree. Match-up charts provide the illusion that they are more objective by providing number such as 6-4 or 7-3, but in reality these numbers are very arbitrary and subjective. What is 6-4 supposed to mean? That one character wins 6 times out of 10 and the other one 4 times out of ten? Or that the change of winning is 60%? Or does 60 just mean "advantage"? How do you really measure all of this? The interpretation of 6-4 or 7-3 is different for every player since everyone has their subjective idea of how 'advantageous' a 6-4 is: some call it a "slight advantage", yet others think it is a "remarkable advantage" and instead they think of 55-45 as a slight advantage. It's difficult to explain how good or bad a match-up is when everybody holds different criteria.

Weare in the early days, my favorite days of any fighting game. The days people choose a character they like and get real good with them. Enjoy this time.

Because as soon as it's gone for glory will probably be a hoard of fights that are just the top 2-3 on the most popular tier list. We will actually see character diversity for a while and I'm excited.

You should be too.

Oh I do enjoy it! I just don't think these early tier lists are insightful. I would appreciate it much more if players would make early tier lists of only the characters they are knowledgable of. At this point I doubt anyone who claims to know where 51 characters are placed. It doesn't hurt anyone to make a one week tier list with all the characters, it's not like I mind it or something, but I don't think it holds a lot of credibility either

 

[SFA Smiley]

IMO Bowser is gonna drop when people figure him out. He's stay in the upper tiers though, Bair is really good and a killing command grab is a strong asset as well. It's actually possible to force people into bad situations this game.

In Brawl if you're scared you just reset but it's not as hard to limit options in this game especially once you're in the air so Bowser will probably stay good. I was skeptical of Bowser staying good at first, but i think he'll stay good just don't think he is (or ever will be top tier)

History has shown you just need more than KO Power to be a top character, because people will do whatever it takes to just not get hit in the first place.

 

[PKIvysaur]

AWW HEEEEEELL NO!

Dk jiggly puff rob and olimar cant be ahead of peach. Shes much better than them I am sure.


HOW THE ACTUAL HELL IS BOWSER HIGHER TIER THAN EVERYONE ELSE!? This is outrageous. Mario cant be THAT high. Bowser jr is supposed to be bad and from his vids I think that is a really accurate description.

 

[Alacion]

Why are Smashers so obsessed with tier lists? The game hasn't been out for 10 days even. It's impossible to make an accurate tier list for 51 characters in such a short time. As far as tier lists are concerned we are for now only able to stick to superficial claims like "this character is mid at best" or "probably not that good" or "probably one of the best" and that's not enough to create an entire tier list of.

It's because everybody likes to see how their favourite characters rank in the grand scheme of things. Also, seeing the opinion of a top player is always interesting and a great discussion starter.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

If there's one thing people like doing, it's making lists Honestly wouldn't be worried by this at all - as he says it's just his initial impression.

Just let the metagame develop - things are likely to seriously change once people actually start taking advantage of the new ledge mechanics. Look at the 1st tier list of Brawl and compare it to the most current one for example - there are some glaring issues with it when you consider the Brawl metagame today!!

 

[Hitzel]

I don't agree. Match-up charts provide the illusion that they are more objective by providing number such as 6-4 or 7-3, but in reality these numbers are very arbitrary and subjective. What is 6-4 supposed to mean? That one character wins 6 times out of 10 and the other one 4 times out of ten? Or that the change of winning is 60%? Or does 60 just mean "advantage"? How do you really measure all of this? The interpretation of 6-4 or 7-3 is different for every player since everyone has their subjective idea of how 'advantageous' a 6-4 is: some call it a "slight advantage", yet others think it is a "remarkable advantage" and instead they think of 55-45 as a slight advantage. It's difficult to explain how good or bad a match-up is when everybody holds different criteria.

"Character A vs Character B is an X-Y matchup" means that if two equally skilled high-level players play ten matches right now with the two characters, one should expect character A to win X times and character B to win Y times.

The "numbers" aren't the reason it's more objective, it's the fact that a matchup chart is generated by looking at one matchup at a time. Comparing two characters at a time to only each other is much less convoluted than comparing each character to the entire cast all at once. There will always be subjectivity involved, but a matchup chart does a much better job at minimizing it with simpler "questions" without leaving out important factors to the outcome of a game.

A matchup chart is also more useful for players looking to learn, because they can look at the tier list and say "As a Character A player, the tier list claims that characters B, C, D, and E are my bad matchups and I should practice them." This is much more useful information than an arbitrary list that effectively says "your character isn't as good as everyone above it on the list."

There are games out there that allows for teams of characters and other factors that make a matchup chart impossibly large to realistically implement, and those games stray away form the matchup chart because it is absolutely necessary to do so. Smash is one of the few popular competitive games that avoids the matchup chart style of tier list when it doesn't have to*, and that's where my issue lies.

*Yes, this means that I don't think that the presence of stages in Smash clouds the concept; It should be made clear to the reader that the more influential stages to the matchup are outliers and can affect the matchup when counter-picked, and that the matchups shown on the tier list are assuming stages that are relatively neutral to the outcome of the matchup.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

You could argue the same for the tier list though - characters higher up the tier list are much more common in tournies than those lower down and therefore, looking at the tier list can give you an idea on what match ups you will likely encounter.

Both can be useful. For example, if I'm playing DK in Brawl, looking at the tier list will tell me that I am likely to encounter characters like MK, Snake, and Marth - therefore they are worthwhile match ups learning. Looking at the match up chart will tell me that a character much lower down the list (DeDeDe) has a standing infinite on DK and therefore, it's worthwhile learning that match up too...

....although really, you should learn all match ups if you're planning on winning!!!


In an ideal situation, the tier list isn't arbitrary but rather the result of combining all the match up charts generated from looking at match ups one at a time (with tourney data mixed in as well). Of course it's open to bias but then again so is establishing match ups


Let's be honest though - charts (tiers or match ups) are not very helpful. Actual discussions are much more worthwhile but unfortunately, people are often much more focused on numbers than actual content when discussing match ups :/

 

[Meru.]

"Character A vs Character B is an X-Y matchup" means that if two equally skilled high-level players play ten matches right now with the two characters, one should expect character A to win X times and character B to win Y times.

The "numbers" aren't the reason it's more objective, it's the fact that a matchup chart is generated by looking at one matchup at a time. Comparing two characters at a time to only each other is much less convoluted than comparing each character to the entire cast all at once. There will always be subjectivity involved, but a matchup chart does a much better job at minimizing it with simpler "questions" without leaving out important factors to the outcome of a game.

A matchup chart is also more useful for players looking to learn, because they can look at the tier list and say "As a Character A player, the tier list claims that characters B, C, D, and E are my bad matchups and I should practice them." This is much more useful information than an arbitrary list that effectively says "your character isn't as good as everyone above it on the list."

There are games out there that allows for teams of characters and other factors that make a matchup chart impossibly large to realistically implement, and those games stray away form the matchup chart because it is absolutely necessary to do so. Smash is one of the few popular competitive games that avoids the matchup chart style of tier list when it doesn't have to*, and that's where my issue lies.

*Yes, this means that I don't think that the presence of stages in Smash clouds the concept; It should be made clear to the reader that the more influential stages to the matchup are outliers and can affect the matchup when counter-picked, and that the matchups shown on the tier list are assuming stages that are relatively neutral to the outcome of the matchup.

I acknowledge a match-up chart can be convenient for reasons you have stated, mainly the fact that we are assessing one particular situation at one time instead of several at once. My main gripe with a match-up list is nobody can accurately measure well how many matches should be expected (unless we are going to base it on emperical data but that isn't happening and this also has obvious flaws). Usually people label match-up based on their own intepretations of their ratios. One player may call a match-up a 55-45 and the other one may call it a 60-40 even though they both mean the same and they both think the match-up is just as good. Some boards may also like their character too much and give a match-up a positive ratio even though it's an absolutely terrible match-up, or vice-versa. Both of these factors can cause distortions when all of the match-ups are accumulated into final score determining the character's placing.

That said, I do think match-up list can be very useful if done well and I do think the tier list should mainly be based on a match-up tier list. Granted, most match-up lists turn out quite fine too. However, given the possibility of human error in these kinds of lists, I find we should feel free to shuffle character's placings if we don't agree with them.

Let's be honest though - charts (tiers or match ups) are not very helpful. Actual discussions are much more worthwhile but unfortunately, people are often much more focused on numbers than actual content when discussing match ups :/

OMG this x10000000.

I absolutely detest it when match-up discussion become nothing more than a fight about the match-up number rather than an actual discussion of both characters' tools. I don't care whether it's a 55-45 or 60-40 or whatever, I just want to know what options each character has against the other, what good strategies are, what can be punished with what etc. The numbers shouldn't be anything more than a simple verdict.

 

[Hitzel]

Don't all of these issues also apply to the Smash style of tier lists though? Bias, the impossibility of being 100% accurate, etc, all of those things are going to be there no matter how you construct a tier list. Highlighting matchups instead of explicit tier placement isn't going to make those problems any more or less significant.

And I'll be completely honest here, this is the first time I've seen people have an issue with "the numbers." Most people I've talked to can hear something like "this match is 7-3" or "this match is 5-5" and know exactly what is being said without any misunderstanding. Maybe you guys just aren't used to it?

 

[Meru.]

Don't all of these issues also apply to the Smash style of tier lists though? Bias, the impossibility of being 100% accurate, etc, all of those things are going to be there no matter how you construct a tier list. Highlighting matchups instead of explicit tier placement isn't going to make those problems any more or less significant.

And I'll be completely honest here, this is the first time I've seen people have an issue with "the numbers." Most people I've talked to can hear something like "this match is 7-3" or "this match is 5-5" and know exactly what is being said without any misunderstanding. Maybe you guys just aren't used to it?

At a certain stage in Brawl's match-up discussions, everybody got so confused with this 55-45 60-40 65-35 stuff that the BR had to think of a "new" system with added explanations to each number (+4, +3, +2, +1, 0) in order to create a decent match-up chart. This worked somewhat better but it still didn't solve the problem. Some people would call a really bad match-up a +2 whereas would call it a +3. It was dependent on your interpretation of "really bad" match-up. I have seen pleeeenty of discussion which basically went like

"This match-up is 40-60"
"No its more like 45-55"
"No way, it's clearly 35-65"
"Are you crazy that's way too crazy! I'd just call it 40-60"
"Guys this is clearly a 30-70"
...
...

 

[Hitzel]

Well that's weird lol. The precedent in fighting games is to use single digits (6-4 instead of 60-40) so maybe using double digits confused people? It's really strange to me that your entire community would have such a hard time understanding that.

 

[Gerpington]

I don't agree. Match-up charts provide the illusion that they are more objective by providing number such as 6-4 or 7-3, but in reality these numbers are very arbitrary and subjective. What is 6-4 supposed to mean? That one character wins 6 times out of 10 and the other one 4 times out of ten? Or that the change of winning is 60%? Or does 60 just mean "advantage"? How do you really measure all of this? The interpretation of 6-4 or 7-3 is different for every player since everyone has their subjective idea of how 'advantageous' a 6-4 is: some call it a "slight advantage", yet others think it is a "remarkable advantage" and instead they think of 55-45 as a slight advantage. It's difficult to explain how good or bad a match-up is when everybody holds different criteria.



Oh I do enjoy it! I just don't think these early tier lists are insightful. I would appreciate it much more if players would make early tier lists of only the characters they are knowledgable of. At this point I doubt anyone who claims to know where 51 characters are placed. It doesn't hurt anyone to make a one week tier list with all the characters, it's not like I mind it or something, but I don't think it holds a lot of credibility either

I agree 100% why can't people just play around with the characters and figure it out over time while getting good with characters they like rather than just writing up far from accurate tier lists off of half baked knowledge. :I

 

[zachmundell]

Lol do people actually take tier lists seriousy? I don't care how powerful a character is, it's how good the player is. Always. Peach looks fun! I can't wait to kick ass with her.

 

[Carrill]

I don't really have a problem with tier lists. If a character's put at top tier, it basically just means they're just harder to win against. That doesn't discount player skill in any way. You just have to acknowledge that it's really hard to beat a skilled Meta Knight when you're playing as Ganondorf in Brawl.

That being said, it's pretty depressing when your favorite character's placed low.

 

[PKIvysaur]

Lol do people actually take tier lists seriousy? I don't care how powerful a character is, it's how good the player is. Always. Peach looks fun! I can't wait to kick *** with her.

This.
Just all of this.

I'm gunna destroy bowsers ass with peach's ass. Bair and peach bomber ftw!

 

[Genome Squirrel]

it's like she spent all the time after brawl working out her gluts at the expense of her arms and legs