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ZSS vs. Meta Knight: an even match-up?

Supermodel From Paris

Supermodel From Paris

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Well, I wasn't too convinced before MLG but after seeing Nick beat Ksiz and Tyrant 2-0 in brackets and MMs and after continuously watching him teabag Seibrik (haha kidding), I'm sort of drinking the kool-aid.

What I don't understand is WHY Nick and his region feel this way, given that ZSS by all rights should not have the tools to deal with MK. She has a few cute gimmicks that are pretty good, but I'd like it if we could have some good players like Nick and Seibrik who say this sort of thing and are familiar with this match-up intimately explain what makes ZSS work here.
 
ph00tbag

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I'm not on Riddle or Seibrik's level by any means, but I can say with certainty that ZSS wouldn't be beating MK solely by her gimmicks. If she does, it would be primarily because of how she can limit his options, and how limited she is by his moves.

With that in mind, it's pretty clear that ZSS certainly shouldn't have a really hard time against MK. She's overall better in the air, with similar range and aerial speed, but much better mobility. Since MK is forced to stay grounded if he wants his best anti-ZSS options available, though, he's prone to ZSS's mid-range SH mix-ups, and he has to be in a range where he's open to dsmashes to punish IDAs with.

Basically, it's ZSS's mix-up game that makes it even. If the ZSS is a smart player with good intuition, and knowledge of the match-up, it's 5:5 on the average. But that's the average, because the results will vary wildly depending on how on point the ZSS player is. Ultimately it comes down to whether the ZSS player guesses right enough times.
 
CO18

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Its not even Seibrik still wins a good majority vs nick, he knows the mu, ill believe nick if he literally starts going even with seibrik but seibrik def has the record in his favor
 
Supermodel From Paris

Supermodel From Paris

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@CO18: that's my feeling on the subject, but then I see Seibrik and Tommy (his room mate, they talk a lot about the game I guess) agreeing with him and it's like o_O
 
Jdietz43

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I'd love to hear more about this, as MK's are prevalent but ZSS's arn't in my area. Exploiting any MU's the local Meta's don't know would be great, though I'm just starting out with her.
 
F

fkacyan

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The results vary widely not only based on the ZSS's mixup game but also the stage terrain and how good you are at abusing it compared to MK.

A platform-covered stage like BF is dangerous because if he manages to get us up his uair can literally cover all of our recovery mixups because of platform cover, but on large stages like FD, PS1, Picto I have a much easier time competing with him.

I played the MU a lot yesterday, and it tended to be even, but it can be aggravating sometimes how easily he can chain moves comparatively.
 
Supermodel From Paris

Supermodel From Paris

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I think ph00t makes the strongest point in that ZSS limits his options aerially and that remaining on the ground makes him more vulnerable to ZSS' devastating short-range and mid-range mixups.

I think that is a strong case, but What about gimping? MK and Sheik are the only two chars I worry about being gimped vs.
 
F

fkacyan

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rise said:
I think ph00t makes the strongest point in that ZSS limits his options aerially and that remaining on the ground makes him more vulnerable to ZSS' devastating short-range and mid-range mixups.

I think that is a strong case, but What about gimping? MK and Sheik are the only two chars I worry about being gimped vs.
Click to expand...
This is essentially about mixing up your recovery so you never do the same thing twice... The issue is, if people know the character they can shut down a lot of your options fairly easily.

If you play an MK who likes to hand around the edge, you're probably going to want to mix up what height you downB at (i.e. go for the edge sometimes, and the footstool others). If you go for either consistently, it's very easy to hit you out of the downB and gimp. That said, a player with good reaction time who hangs around the edge intelligently will probably gimp you more times than you survive.

If the MK aggressively follows you, I've found it's a lot easier to recover because of how broken uAir's spacing is. That said, save your second jump for after your downB if possible so you can upB boost jump at seemingly random times to save your life when you're outside of his dair range.

It really varies by stage and gimp style, I've found. Also, experience against the character tends to be a huge factor.
 
NickRiddle

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On stage ZSS wins.
D-tilt/d-smash destroy most of MKs options.
Uair beats him in the air.
With his limited aerial mobility it is easy to follow up, even with his six jumps, due to ZSS's stupidly high jumps.
Offstage, MK has a much easier time gimping ZSS, but ZSS can still recover.
D-smash beats all mis-spaced MK recoveries. Grab-release > uair is amazing. Anybody who thinks it is impossible to get a d-smash/grab on a MK is ****ing ******** and needs to learn how to play the game.
The thing everybody says is that MK can PS our moves on reaction. You cannot PS a charged d-smash on reaction, nor can you PS a d-tilt.


If you ask Seibrik, he'll probably say that half the reason he beats me is because he knows me, and my habits. Some of the stuff I do to his character is ********, which is why he says it is even.

I should really stop typing with so many line breaks, but whatever.
 
Zero

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It is quite easy to powershield on reaction, but a charge downsmash is impossible to powershield on reaction. (It comes out on frame 21, 20 frames of startup, or some garbage like that).

Unless you're incredibly lucky all the time.
 
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fkacyan

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kaleidoRuby said:
It is quite easy to powershield on reaction, but a charge downsmash is impossible to powershield on reaction. (It comes out on frame 21, 20 frames of startup, or some garbage like that).

Unless you're incredibly lucky all the time.
Click to expand...
It has five frames of release, which is obscenely fast.
 
Supermodel From Paris

Supermodel From Paris

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You have to outplay MK on the ground. Xonar is correct.

However, ZSS' ground mix-ups are pretty devastating when they connect, whereas MK's are just really good and more consistent.
 
#HBC | ZoZo

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D-tilt Raw Data:
Advantage: -19

Shield drop - 6
Buffered dash attack -4

Makes for 10 frames. Maybe 1 or 2 more depending on how far away you are. MK can easily punish dtilt. A shield approach is really devastating even if you Dsmash. You see, dsmash is -5, that means that there's 1 frame for him to grab armor your jab, and it's bufferable. So, it's just a guessing game... downB > avoid grab/get punished or spotdodge etc etc.
 
Zero

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Remember Xonar, for a grab to connect they have to be in range. If you space a dsmash right, there's no way it can be grabbed, since a dash takes away any advantage there would be.
 
#HBC | ZoZo

#HBC | ZoZo

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True, but with MK's movement speed, you'd have to predict him to dash at you and start charging before he's close, otherwise he can shield closer and start the guessing/prediction game. If he simply takes it slow, he can actually punish dsmash because you whiffed it. So yeah, you have to outplay the MK on the ground, the thing is, MK has way more mixups, even if yours are more devastating.

I really do like versing MK in the air though :3
 
Supermodel From Paris

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Mew2King said:
after playing nick riddle i found out tornado sucks against ZSS
Click to expand...
The best way to use Tornado vs ZSS is at an angle where it is above her and slightly to the left or right because she has no real defense. However, yes it is easier than average for her to avoid it. She can also blatantly beat it by using rising uair.
 
Supermodel From Paris

Supermodel From Paris

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Xonar said:
True, but with MK's movement speed, you'd have to predict him to dash at you and start charging before he's close, otherwise he can shield closer and start the guessing/prediction game. If he simply takes it slow, he can actually punish dsmash because you whiffed it. So yeah, you have to outplay the MK on the ground, the thing is, MK has way more mixups, even if yours are more devastating.

I really do like versing MK in the air though :3
Click to expand...
That's what I said :(
 
noradseven

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I think the matchup is in MK's favor(6-4/5.5-4.5), but considering the ratio of ZSS/MK players the ZSS will have a **** ton more match experience. So unless its the dude you play against all the **** time, I think the ZSS player has the advantage, especially because of some of the oddities in this match.

Mew2King said:
after playing nick riddle i found out tornado sucks against ZSS
Click to expand...
I wouldn't say sucks, just not as good.

Xonar said:


D-tilt Raw Data:
Advantage: -19

Shield drop - 6
Buffered dash attack -4

Makes for 10 frames. Maybe 1 or 2 more depending on how far away you are. MK can easily punish dtilt. A shield approach is really devastating even if you Dsmash. You see, dsmash is -5, that means that there's 1 frame for him to grab armor your jab, and it's bufferable. So, it's just a guessing game... downB > avoid grab/get punished or spotdodge etc etc.
Click to expand...
While I spout frame data all the time, frame data isn't the gospel truth you can often get away with unsafe things, that being said, d-smash owns against MK, and d-tilt is better as a punish then a poke. ZSS really shouldn't be poking much.
 
Eddie G

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After what BigLou and ESAM have done with their characters...I'll believe anything is possible...:laugh:
 
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