ZSS Stage Discussion

[Supermodel From Paris]

Zero Suit Samus: Stage Discussion
Currently Discussing: Stage Ranking
​

We are currently in the process of ranking stages. This means figuring out which stages are currently good stages for ZSS and which are not. As a point of reference: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=155975

There hasn't been much discussion on what stages to pick against which characters (or really, much discussion about anything...) here on the ZSS forums, so I thought it would be a good idea to make a thread for us to talk about this aspect of character match-ups specifically. I think it makes sense, especially since the character match-up thread is apparently dead.

I'd be interested in hearing who everyone wants to talk about first. I definitely think the MK/Snake thing has been beaten into the ground, so we should probably discuss another high or top tier character like Wario, Dedede, or Falco.

After a post or two, I'll edit the original post to reflect the discussion direction.

The format for contributions to this thread should be primarily in this vein:
1. Stages to take the other guy to
2. Stages to ban
3. Comments as to why

 

[DeliciousCake]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=155975
I would say compile Snakeee's old thread info into this one and go from there.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=155975
I would say compile Snakeee's old thread info into this one and go from there.

With due respect to Snakeee, I'm not sure I would use that kind of data for this thread. First of all, it's a year old. Second, stages aren't really just "good" or "bad." I don't think it's that simple when we're using a character-to-character format.

Other than that I see a few things that have definitely changed in the past year. I can copy+paste his data into the OP for reference purposes, but I don't think it's a good idea to use it as a basis for discussion.

 

[Snakeee]

With due respect to Snakeee, I'm not sure I would use that kind of data for this thread. First of all, it's a year old. Second, stages aren't really just "good" or "bad." I don't think it's that simple when we're using a character-to-character format.

Other than that I see a few things that have definitely changed in the past year. I can copy+paste his data into the OP for reference purposes, but I don't think it's a good idea to use it as a basis for discussion.

I agree, although some of that I think should at least be considered with this even with it being outdated.

I think it would be best to discuss what she is overall good on, and vice versa first. Then aftewards, we should focus on what to use and avoid for specific match ups.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

OK, then. I'll edit the OP to reflect that our first goal will be ranking the various stages. and edit in your data for now.

OK, to get the ball rolling, here are some opinions on the various neutral stages:

Final Destination: Personally, I am a fan of this stage in virtually any match-up. Occasionally, you run into characters that make it difficult, however. Those are characters that finish to the side and are capable of out-camping you at long range. Some examples of the offenders are Yoshi, Diddy Kong, and Samus. The Links used to be more difficult, but I've recently been able to deal with them. If Link or Toon Link take you hear, the idea is that you want to try to stay in mid-range and don't let them have room to camp.

Smashville: The problem with Smashville is that the platform tends to aid in your opponents' recovery, especially in cases where your opponent's recovery is poor to begin with. I used to think this stage made it harder to gimp as well, but I don't have that problem anymore unless I'm trying to Up+B spike (which you can just opt out of doing here). The down-b spike hits through the platform and if you catch someone offstage with a dsmash you can dair them through the platform. It's rare, but fun.

With that said, I prefer this stage to Final Destination because there's less of a chance of a borked tether, which of course makes recovery easier on your part. Also, I believe the ceiling is lower. While that's usually a good thing (uair kills are love), watch out for characters like Luigi and Snake who have very strong upward finishers.

Yoshi's Island: This is by far my favorite neutral stage. The platform running over top the center rotates, which creates a lot of really fun dsmash opportunities if you find yourself on top of it (which can also suck, which I'll talk about later). The sides of the stage are walls, obviously, which makes recovering as ZSS quite easy compared to the other neutral stages. And against characters that out-aerial you, the center platform also makes a great refuge you can camp under.

Yoshi's is also not a very large stage, meaning that you can glide toss clear to the other side (well, almost) and land a dsmash or grab early in the match. Overall, I'm very comfortable here and love taking characters with aerial approaches such as Marth to this stage.

Battlefield: I do not dig this stage in many cases. The platforms can be a blessing and a curse, but are most of the time the latter. Getting stuck on top of them when fighting Yoshi, Snake, or the space animals will almost always spell bad news for you and ZSS doesn't have great out of shield options, especially when your opponent is below you.

The positive side is that when you're below the platforms and controlling the stage You can get some very nice air combos going and up+b on heavy characters stuck on platforms is a good way to get some easy damage in.

 

[Kaitou Ace]

For one, we should reconsider Lylat Cruise as a viable stage for ZSS. There's lots of air room and the 3 platforms are spaced in such a way that makes it great for ZSS to attack from underneath with minimal risk. The bent edges also make it more difficult for some characters to recover here and should really be considered a great CP in ZSS's belt.

 

[Snakeee]

For one, we should reconsider Lylat Cruise as a viable stage for ZSS. There's lots of air room and the 3 platforms are spaced in such a way that makes it great for ZSS to attack from underneath with minimal risk. The bent edges also make it more difficult for some characters to recover here and should really be considered a great CP in ZSS's belt.

That's Always been one of my best stages. It's better for her than Battlefield

 

[DeliciousCake]

I've always hated Lylat since the game first came out, simply because Plasma Whip sometimes is completely useless when the ship is tilted to an extreme. Flip Jump recovery also gets messed up in that situation as well. On the other hand, it's fairly similar to Battlefield, which in my personal opinion is my best stage for her.

As far as banned stages go, the first thing that comes to mind is to ban Skyworld if the tournament is considering it a CP. Although I can't think of any tournaments that have...

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Does anyone else really, really hate Pokemon Stadium 2?

I like Lylat, too. You just have to pay attention to which way the stage is tilted. The platforms aren't as large as the ones in Battlefield so I don't often get that 'trapped' feeling I do in that stage.

 

[Snakeee]

I've always hated Lylat since the game first came out, simply because Plasma Whip sometimes is completely useless when the ship is tilted to an extreme. Flip Jump recovery also gets messed up in that situation as well. On the other hand, it's fairly similar to Battlefield, which in my personal opinion is my best stage for her.

As far as banned stages go, the first thing that comes to mind is to ban Skyworld if the tournament is considering it a CP. Although I can't think of any tournaments that have...

Everyone's going to have personal likes and dislikes about stages. Like I hate Yoshi's a lot, but it's really neutral or better for ZSS. I also love RC even more than I should....even though it is a good stage for her anyway

EDIT: sasook, Norfair is pretty much her best stage of all, but it's usually banned now

 

[sasook]

I love Norfair with her, personally. The mindgames you can pull on that stage are crazy, especially using upb from just above the middle platform and somehow tethering to the end of the top platform. Plus, it's hard to gimp her there.

And if you get lucky enough, dsmash stun someone underneath the top platform when the wave is in the back. It's the funniest stage spike you'll ever see.

 

[Nefarious B]

I think Lylat, Battlefield, (and Brinstar below) are probably her best stages overall. The lower platforms help her out so much for comboing and, if your opponent is a tard, possibly dsmash.

IMO which one you use should depend on whether or not your opponent can out camp you. I'd obviously take Falco to Lylat over Battlefield for example because messing his laser game up is more important to me than retaining a good plasma whip game.

I've actually been liking Brinstar a lot. You can do some awesome things with the suit pieces at the start, like using the tendril things on the sides to keep them in the stage (and the tendril extends the hitbox to the platform above it), or dropping one on the... bulb things in the middle, and letting it bounce to separate the stage and try and force a poor recovering character into the middle. You can also leave the thing bouncing and I believe its hitbox extends through the entire bulb, keeping its timer from running, and you can just grab it before it breaks through to prevent it from falling. I also find this stage to be pretty easy to stall on with its higher platforms against slower opponents, with ZSS's good aerial speed. The lava will force people into the air where ZSS usually dominates. Heh after reading this I actually consider this one of her best stages.


Norfair is another great stage for the jump kick trixies and having plenty of platforms to maneuver around and tether to, but if it's usually banned not much point in discussing it really.

I do like Rainbow Cruise but it's not great only because you can be gimped very easily if you're aggressive and don't conserve your jumps. Also, the blast zones are so close, so while you can kill people at low percents you die at stupid low percents, and with down b as a good momentum stopper I'd probably rather have more room than less as it can even out the weight factor is some cases.

I really like Green Greens with her even if I can't really pinpoint a reason why. The tournies near my house are very lenient on stage picks so I can choose it, but I think most people wont have that option.

I consider FD and SV pretty neutral for her, not really worth picking or banning.

I don't really like yoshi's, it's an awkward stage and I've had my tether glitch on it a couple times.

I don't think she has many bad stages, Japes sucks because of the whip issues, but even Frigate is not that bad since she can camp pretty well underneath the platforms on both transformations. I'd probably just ban your opponent's best stage unless they are good on Japes.

 

[PepsiMista]

That's Always been one of my best stages. It's better for her than Battlefield

this.
I am not very tactical

Everyone's going to have personal likes and dislikes about stages. Like I hate Yoshi's a lot, but it's really neutral or better for ZSS. I also love RC even more than I should....even though it is a good stage for her anyway

EDIT: sasook, Norfair is pretty much her best stage of all, but it's usually banned now

I really like Rainbow Cruise more than i should and norfair is my 2nd favorite.
We should start on stages we should avoid.

 

[ph00tbag]

Everyone's going to have personal likes and dislikes about stages. Like I hate Yoshi's a lot, but it's really neutral or better for ZSS. I also love RC even more than I should....even though it is a good stage for her anyway

EDIT: sasook, Norfair is pretty much her best stage of all, but it's usually banned now

Norfair is also a real double-edged sword. If you play it even the slightest bit wrong, you'll probably get wrecked, so make sure you're aware of everything you can do, and make sure you do all of it to keep your opponent on their toes.

 

[FIERCE]

Although highly dependent on character I will usually just take Metaknight to Lylat Cruise so that I can camp on a platform hoping he'll hit a downsmash. It's actually one of my favorite CP's next to Rainbow Cruise. Against Snake I tend to go towards Lylat Cruise as well since the stun will hit him through the platform and it gimps his recovery if he messes up with the C4.

But I ALWAYS ban Jungle Japes. You can't Plasma Whip on the middle platform if you jump & do it. I got taken to Japes by Praxis and it was hard to get out of the habit of using the whip for kills. If you're more reliant on f-airs & b-airs for KO's it shouldn't be too bad but the whip is rendered useless here in the main platform. ):

 

[fkacyan]

I love how people keep referring to stages that aren't even legal in my region.

>_>

 

[CRASHiC]

The attitude of the ZSS board.
You wanna get good????
Go here what snake has to say.
He knows everything there is to know.

 

[fkacyan]

The attitude of the ZSS board.
You wanna get good????
Go here what snake has to say.
He knows everything there is to know.

Snakeee is the only ZSS who has consistently placed well in teams and singles since the release of Brawl.

I'd say asking him about stuff is a safe bet.

 

[Snakeee]

The attitude of the ZSS board.
You wanna get good????
Go here what snake has to say.
He knows everything there is to know.

I think I even said in the opening that I don't know everything and if other ppl have things to add that they're pretty sure about then they should.

And Cyanide, Dazwa, and probably Claw are up there too...but thanks

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Snakeee is the only ZSS who has consistently placed well in teams and singles since the release of Brawl.

I'd say asking him about stuff is a safe bet.

Dazwa and Claw are also quite good. I actually wish Claw was more active here.

Edit: I thought Jungle Japes was banned in most regions?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Sorry, double post...

 

[sasook]

And Cyanide, Dazwa, and probably Claw are up there too...but thanks

Faded deserves a mention too, IMO.

ph00t, I agree with the double edged sword thing. But....when Norfair is Link's best stage, all that stage experience helps a lot ^_^

Supermodel, I'm fairly sure Japes is a legal stage.

 

[CRASHiC]

Atlantic South bans nearly everything lol.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'd really appreciate some more opinions on some stages so I can get the good, bad, and ugly into the OP in the next week or so. Trust me, you don't want it all based on my POV.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

Hey, this is a random stage-specific tidbit of info I'm not sure people know about, I don't think it is worth its own thread, and this thread seems most applicable since it's about specific stages...

On Battlefield, when you're hanging on the ledge, if you have less than 100% damage (so you don't do ZSS's slow get-up attack), you can use your get-up attack, down+b from where you're standing, do the down+B kick in either direction, and it'll edge-cancel on the platform, cutting the lag to 0 and letting you follow up with anything.

It's pretty specific stuff, but the down+B's strong high-priority long-lasting hitbox, combined with no landing lag, it's a decent way of securing the stage if you're fighting your way back on.

EDIT: I call this the Samus Knee

 

[Snakeee]

Hmm that's pretty good to know Dazwa.

 

[noradseven]

Hey, this is a random stage-specific tidbit of info I'm not sure people know about, I don't think it is worth its own thread, and this thread seems most applicable since it's about specific stages...

On Battlefield, when you're hanging on the ledge, if you have less than 100% damage (so you don't do ZSS's slow get-up attack), you can use your get-up attack, down+b from where you're standing, do the down+B kick in either direction, and it'll edge-cancel on the platform, cutting the lag to 0 and letting you follow up with anything.

It's pretty specific stuff, but the down+B's strong high-priority long-lasting hitbox, combined with no landing lag, it's a decent way of securing the stage if you're fighting your way back on.

EDIT: I call this the Samus Knee

Yeah I found out about this months ago, back when I was using down+B too much for my own good, this is one of the few good things I found out randomly, you can also do this on a few other stages but its more difficult, I didn't want to post about it because I thought it would be common knowledge.

 

[ph00tbag]

I've actually been on the look-out for good ledge-cancel options for a while. Norfair and Brinstar are amazing stages for that kind of stuff. Smashville can be too.

 

[Nefarious B]

What do other people think about Brinstar in general?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'm not comfortable on Brinstar, but I think it's said that it's one of her better CP stages. It isnt' a -bad- stage by any means. It has a low ceiling, which means easy uair kills but I always get caught on the node where the stage separates (similar to getting stuck on platforms on Battlefield) and get punished for it. Also I hate rising lava.

 

[Kaitou Ace]

I like Brinstar's node because it's a strategic way of refreshing your moves. This means your Bairs will always have fresh KB and on a stage with close blastzones, that sounds pretty good for ZSS. I think she takes less of a risk even though the stage is crooked but she can just use Dsmash to her advantage as it'll paralyze people underneath her if she's at an angle. Also, the lava helps her recovery, if she ever gets gimped so one of her huge weaknesses is thus sort of taken care of.

I'd just be iffy about CPing this stage against like Snake, or any other character with a lot of KB in regular moves which will bite ZSS in the butt. D: Other than that, it's a good stage.

 

[Negi Kun1]

I myself like Brinstar, its a little hard to explain for me but I'll try. I like that this stage forces my opponent to the upper levels of the stage, I myself like it when my opponent is forced onto platforms or into the air. Also the kill zones to me, seem a bit small, so the ease to kill is nice.

But mostly, I like the lava, it serves as a distraction to the opponent which makes things easier for me, its a nice thing to have when your opponent doesn't frequent Brinstar.

Also, I didn't know you could refresh your moves on the hittable parts, thats nice to know.

 

[Nefarious B]

What move do you use to refresh on the middle? I tend to just jab the tendrils on the sides since all the moves that I can think of don't actually hit or lag too much on the middle. For example, dtilt and dsmash don't hit it IIRC, and dair is like 5 secs of lag luls.

 

[Zero]

OK ZSS collective conscious, this is a thread we really should be maintaining. Our metagame has been advancing forward fairly well in the past month and a bit, but compared to other boards, we're pretty lousy, mostly due to the small size of our community. Our matchup thread is probably the most underdeveloped on these boards, and our stage discussion, well, yeah. So instead of a new thread, how about we create a new stage ranking list? I'll start.

Advantageous

• Rainbow Cruise - Just ask Snakeee, I think he's written a guidepost about it somewhere.
• Battlefield - Platforms do us well, stage size works well for survival and it doesn't particularly hinder fresh kill moves.
• Final Destination - Plenty of space for spacing, against character who are both slower than you and have no projectiles, your strong spacing game should totally stonewall them.
• Lylat Cruise - not even sure.

Borderline

• Halberd - Ceiling height works both to our disadvantage and our advantage.
• Brinstar - Technically ungimpable on this stage, however at the cost of damage that we usually cannot afford to lose, and even moreso on this stage, due to it's tiny size, both horizontally and vertically. It works very well for us, allows us plenty of stage control and the tendrils allow for fresh kill moves. I expect this to be one of the more discussed stages.
• Delfino Plaza - Saving your second boost jump and flipjump can keep you out of trouble, water cancelling can work for safely when above opponent, constant walkoffs are potentially fatal for a dashlocked opponent/grab released Meta Knight. wide edges in many parts of the stage are a serious detriment to our kill ability, however assist our horizontal survivability.
• Castle Siege - really not sure, same for most of Delfino, except walkoffs are more constant.

Neutral

• ???

Borderline Disadvantageous

• Smashville - I think that the stage is much too small, the platform gets in the way often.
• Yoshi's Island (not pipes) - Same as for Smashville, except for more small and more platform.

Disadvantageous

I hope you guys know more about stages than I do.

 

[FadedImage]

it's easier to talk about the things that make a stage good/bad for zss and in what situations.

Stage Size:

ZSS greatly benefits from having a nice large stage for multiple reasons. At the beginning of the match, ZSS can use her suit pieces to gain a great advantage. The larger the stage, the easier it is to use the suit pieces effectively. Also, and more importantly, ZSS has great spacing capabilities with her plasma whip. Her spacing is severely hindered when she has no room to do it!


Platforms:

With most of ZSS's damaging moves being centered above her, (utilt, usmash, uair, and up-b), having platforms is a great advantage. Having platforms makes a ZSS that much harder to approach, and makes it much easier for her to spam those up-centric attacks. Also, since it is difficult for ZSS to perform rising aerials, platforms allow her to hit her opponent with aerials that otherwise would be impossible on level ground. However, platforms can also be a curse for ZSS; since ZSS has no reliable form of attack for when she is coming down on an opponent, getting stuck on a platform above your opponent can spell disaster. So, while platforms may aide her while she is under them, they can cripple her while she is above them, using them correctly is the key to gaining the advantage.


Uneven Stage:

This is a big one for me. Because the side-b (which is oh so important) doesn't form to the ground, uneven stages can cause a lot of missed attacks. Also, a more minor, but still significant issue, is with suit pieces. Uneven stages can cause suit pieces to land on the ground awkwardly (if thrown down) or even roll away when the match is started, which creates a large inconvenience for any ZSS player.


Ceiling:

Now this is one I might get arguments on, but I almost never find myself Star KO'ing with ZSS (relying more heavily on the side-b and side aerials) and as we all know, ZSS is a rather light character. Not only that, but since she suffers from being susceptible to attacks from below, (dair being a last resort in my opinion), she can easily be roof KO'ed herself. With all of these factors, it is best to avoid low ceiling stages.

lol @ year old post

anyways, it's still pretty legit info.


Also, stages that force people into the air (brinstar, norfair, rainbow cruise) are good and bad, if we're playing someone that's better at air control than us, it's a problem... (MK, Lucario, Peach, Ness, Luigi, etc.)


and zero, lol, the SV platform gets in the way but the BF platforms are fine? ):

 

[noradseven]

Okay in all seriousness if Norfair and RC are legal you will pick one of those like everytime. Brinstar and BF are p. good too, we don't have too many bad stages.

lololol I kinda disagree with peach and lucario there lucario may have alot of good aireals but they also love flat stages far more than we do.

Also ban jungle against Rob, he didn't die until above 300% >. I had no idea rob was good on that stage.

 

[ph00tbag]

Yoshi's is fine for ZSS. I think it's neutral or better for her. She controls the area under the platform really well, and she can rack up tons of damage just by getting under there and forcing her opponent to approach.

 

[Zero]

and zero, lol, the SV platform gets in the way but the BF platforms are fine? ):

Well, it's put rather badly, so I'll elaborate here.

BF has three static platforms, which, when controlled smartly, are your territory. The stage is fairly small, but the vertical layers are a viable compensation.

However, Smashville is a small stage, both horizontally and vertically, constricting your options as you approach the edges. It's not a particularly bad stage, though. Thinking it through a bit more thoroughly, I'd rate it a solid neutral, leaning towards a disadvantage against aggressive characters, such as Fox, MK, Marth.

Okay in all seriousness if Norfair and RC are legal you will pick one of those like everytime. Brinstar and BF are p. good too, we don't have too many bad stages.

lololol I kinda disagree with peach and lucario there lucario may have alot of good aireals but they also love flat stages far more than we do.

Also ban jungle against Rob, he didn't die until above 300% >. I had no idea rob was good on that stage.

Isn't Norfair illegal everywhere?

300% haha, Japes is so bad :[ Your opponenet can basically platform camp since the edges attract your side-B and your options then are practically short hop air dodge into an uair/utilt/something equally predictable.

Who was it that posted proclaiming Castle Siege's greatness? I'd like to get full stage synopsis' and analysis beginning soon, starting with the weird stages.

 

[sasook]

Norfair isn't banned officially, but most TOs ban it anyway. Why? Because they hate ZSS, Link, and Ganon. Lol

Dazwa is pretty amazing on castle siege.

 

[Nefarious B]

Interestingly enough, I disagree with Phoot on a lot of things about what makes a stage good. The main things I look for in stages are:

Things that force opponents into the air.

Close blast zones (especially off the top). On FD, we'll die at 110 anyways, whereas playing snake he can live to 150, often higher. Close blast zones means everyone's in kill range by 110. The exception to this is MK, since he can get random SL kills even at absurdly low percents, but this never happens on FD and he can have a difficult time killing without those.

Things that help us deal with camping (platforms, slopes)

Anything that can give us added gimicks (walk off CGs, wall jumps and attacking under stage for ex.)

With that, these are ordered within tiers too:

Top:

Norfair
RC
Brinstar: seriously more people need to use this stage, it's really really good for us.
BF

High:

PS1
Lylat
Siege: I'm thinking this could be really good against campers (besides ROB) because the slopes and statues nullify projectiles on every transformation.
Halberd: Nice big, mostly flat, stage, but with closeish blastzones. I need to play this one more to see how I like it.

Neutral:

FD (very matchup dependent)

Delfino

Sucky: None of these are really that aweful for us, maybe Japes. The problem is that they force us to change our playstyles. IMO ZSS has no aweful stages.

Yoshi's
SV
Japes