ZSS Matchup is no longer in our favor

[CRASHiC]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7095339

She has a chain grab to 60. On a side note, as of yesterday, ZSS is now my second main.

Dededee is a pimp, and every pimp needs his hoe.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I don't think the match-up was ever in D3's favor, and if it was, not by much.

Give me some time and I'll be able to tell you if I think this is worth anything to the matchup. I play a pretty solid player frequently who mains D3. The problem I foresee is that I like using the pieces heavily in this match-up if I can do it (same with Snake) so doing the CG means the pieces will either fade or get used against me. Not cool.

Dededee is a pimp, and every pimp needs his hoe.

Great choice. ZSS is one of this game's best characters IMO and extraordinarily underrated.

 

[CRASHiC]

it was only like by 5 points I think.
But this could tip it to 60 in yours I think.
If we could find a set up after the chain grab that leads to down smash, then that would put Dededees at around 100 and in range for a downsmash-upb combo. I think it potentially is a loss of stock for us Dededees.

And yeah, I think ZSS is increadibly underrated, and will be among the the top final tier.
Yes, she has her basic flaws, but so did Melee Fox and Marth, and players overcame that.

 

[Blistering Speed]

I don't think the match-up was ever in D3's favor, and if it was, not by much.

Give me some time and I'll be able to tell you if I think this is worth anything to the matchup. I play a pretty solid player frequently who mains D3. The problem I foresee is that I like using the pieces heavily in this match-up if I can do it (same with Snake) so doing the CG means the pieces will either fade or get used against me. Not cool.
Great choice. ZSS is one of this game's best characters IMO and extraordinarily underrated.

Worth anything to the matchup? Very slow large character who freaking lives in his shield ready to grab you and a character who outranges said character's grab range can CG him 0-60%. No, no effect at all.
Second, why would you use the armor pieces when it means you MIGHT get a percentage from them (very likely not 60%) and risk having them used against you, when you could get the grab and get a guaranteed 60%. And that armour logic is still only applicable to the first stock.

 

[CRASHiC]

Because the glide toss is an amazing way to maneuver about the field, as it by passes tripping, and takes you half way across FD, as well as being a set up for the down smash, which can be done three times in a row for about 30 damage.

However, I still believe this is a big deal. For the first reason you posted. The matchups where we don't have a chain grab, but our enemy does are all 65:35

 

[Gates]

On a side note, as of yesterday, ZSS is now my second main.
Dededee is a pimp, and every pimp needs his hoe.

I got some blisters on my feet yesterday.

Oh wait, this thread isn't about posting things that nobody cares about? My mistake, the first post confused me.

it was only like by 5 points I think.

No. Do you know how to read my matchup thread?

However, I still believe this is a big deal. For the first reason you posted. The matchups where we don't have a chain grab, but our enemy does are all 65:35

Marth has a chaingrab on Dedede and that matchup is even at worst.

Yes, this will affect the matchup. That doesn't mean ZSS is now a hard counter for Dedede. She's still techchaseable, light, can't camp very well except for on the first stock, and her recovery is reasonably easy to deal with especially if you can get her far off the stage. She's got more on us now but I doubt she's in the same area as Falco, Olimar, and Pikachu, and she's still lightyears behind Ice Climbers.

Spoiler

Peach is hotter.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I agree mostly with you, Gates, but think you're overstating her weaknesses. ZSS camps pretty well and is a very strong punisher.

 

[Coney]

I play with two great ZSS' all the time. Honestly I'm not sure if the matchup was ever in DDD's favor, but I've always had an issue with the matchup anyway. I was under the impression it was pretty even, personally.

I thought the fthrow CG was already known about for a while though? They've gotten me in it for months now, though I don't think they ever got it up to 60%...though I s'pose that's what this whole buffering thing is about.

My friend and I went DDD/ZSS at a recent tourney and did really well. I don't know why, but I love these two as a pair. Jabba and the ****, we calls 'em.

I'm just rambling now. More **** no-one cares about.

Anyway.

Good job ZSS'!

 

[CRASHiC]

Yeah, its 5 in her favor, so i misread.
And Gates, you can't gimp a good ZSS. She has to many options.

 

[Gates]

I agree mostly with you, Gates, but think you're overstating her weaknesses. ZSS camps pretty well and is a very strong punisher.

Yes but can she camp as well as Falco or Olimar? I doubt it.

And Gates, you can't gimp a good ZSS. She has to many options.

I realize that and I apologize for making such a generalization. I tried to word the gimping part carefully because I knew someone would call me out on it but I guess I didn't do a good enough job of it. I know that ZSS has good enough recovery so that if you know what you're doing she won't get gimped but if she gets far off the stage she likely won't come back.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yes but can she camp as well as Falco or Olimar? I doubt it.

I realize that and I apologize for making such a generalization. I tried to word the gimping part carefully because I knew someone would call me out on it but I guess I didn't do a good enough job of it. I know that ZSS has good enough recovery so that if you know what you're doing she won't get gimped but if she gets far off the stage she likely won't come back.

Wrong again. I'm sorry. Have you ever even played a ZSS? There's virtually nothing I can't come back from. unless I'm knocked into some weird under-the-stage position in FD, and even then I can get back if I have all my jumps (down-b jump).

 

[CRASHiC]

down b is jump
up b is slight jump

 

[Jupz]

The King is the only character meant to have a chaingrab Now you guys are being mean

 

[7ACE7]

I'm not too worried. The matchup is still close.

 

[Commander_Beef]

lol What the ****??? A penguin cannot be considered attractive to Zero Suit Samus. . .that's just plain wrong. They're completely different species! King Dedede is a pimp but not to humans =D. Good job crashic though.