Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
....why are people not making a bigger deal out of this?!
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
ZSS has a one frame jab...
- Thread starter Blistering Speed
- Start date
Kyriel
Smash Cadet
Common knowledge. Any ZZS player who's worth anything knows this, not to mention jabs tend to come out on frame one. Are you going to tell me that her tilts can trip people now?
PltnmNgl
Smash Journeyman
They trip people?
I guess that was sarcasm but, in case it wasn't, it's her ftilt.
Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
Jabs tend to come out frame one? The only characters in the game with a one frame jab are ZSS and Squirtle. Making ZSS the only permanent character with a one frame physical attack.............Im missing the part where this isn't a big deal.
Adapt
Smash Lord
her jab combo sucks badly and her jab canceling isn't that great either
DeliciousCake
Smash Lord
It might be 1 frame, but as Adapt said, it blows big time; it can be shield-grabbed after the second hit.
As for her f-tilt: chance to trip on mid height, higher chance on low height.
As for her f-tilt: chance to trip on mid height, higher chance on low height.
Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
Really? O then never mind, Im sorry for my ignorance. Argh how annoying that the jab combo itself and the characters jab cancelling are both bad. It's squandered potential is what it is!
Snakeee
Smash Master
No, it's definitely worth mentioning even though me and a lot of other ZSS players know this already. I'm actually glad someone brought it up because certain people like Cake here don't think it gives the jab any use lol. It can beat anything, and interrupt a lot. The two most recent uses I've found were hitting a shielding or spot dodging DDD before he can kill me with his up-tilt, and breaking marth's forward Bs in between hits while shielding...actually the DDD one was suggested to me by NinjaLink. But I've always punished spot dodging with jabs because nothing can beat it there. You don't have to do the full jab combo you know guys...
Takumaru
Smash Lord
Jab jab cancel tilt?
DeliciousCake
Smash Lord
I never said the one frame jab was bad, just the combo.
Takumaru
Smash Lord
Cake, what is the render in your sig from?
DeliciousCake
Smash Lord
The background is some random abstract piece, and the foreground is a drawing of Dark Samus, dunno who did it.
Takumaru
Smash Lord
Mmmmm, delicious.
EDIT: You know, more frame data on zamus would be useful.
EDIT: You know, more frame data on zamus would be useful.
DeliciousCake
Smash Lord
I don't have access to a Wii for extended periods of time currently.
Snakeee
Smash Master
Oh alright sorry. Actually though, the combo works on most characters a decent amount of the time, you can often restart the combo because a shield grab can usually be interrupted by more jabs
Kyriel
Smash Cadet
-still on Melee thought process-
Anyway, pretty sure Lucas and Ness come out on frame one, as told to me by a friend who mains them--though he doesn't have an AR, if they even exist for Wii, so I'm not sure how reliable that claim is. Where are you getting your information from?
Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
Nope, it was a rumour for a while that Lucas' jab came out frame 1, but it actually comes out frame 2.
3GOD
Smash Ace
Like this?
Jab:
First hits on frame 1
Dash Attack:
Total: 31 frames
First hits on frame 6
Shield Hit Lag: 7
Shield Stun: 9
Advantage: -23
Dtilt:
Total: 25 frames
First hits on frame 5
Shield Hit Lag: 6
Shield Stun: 7
Advantage: -19
Ftilt:
Total: 28 frames
First hits on frame 6
Utilt:
Total: 45 frames
First hits on frame 3
Dsmash:
Total: 35 frames
First hits on frame 20
Shield Hit lag: 0
Shield Stun: 12
Advantage: -3
Fsmash:
Total: 65 frames
First hits on frame 20
Usmash:
Total: 45 frames
First hits on frame 8
Nair:
First hits on frame 10
Landing lag: 10
Shield Hit lag: 13
Shield stun: 11
Advantage: -12
Dair:
First hits on frame 14
Landing lag: 40
Shield Hit lag: 2
Shield stun: 9
Advantage: -33
Fair:
First hits on frame 6
Landing lag: 16
Shield Hit lag: 8
Shield stun: 11
Advantage: -13
Bair:
First hits on frame 8
Landing lag: 9
Shield Hit lag: 10
Shield stun: 14
Advantage: -5
Uair:
First hits on frame 4
Landing lag: 9
Shield Hit lag: 8
Shield stun: 11
Advantage: -6
Neutral-B first hits on frame 21
Side-B:
Total: 43 frames
First hits on frame 24, end “spark” hits on 33
Shield Hit lag: 17 (spark)
Shield Stun: 16 (spark)
Advantage: -11 (spark)
Up-B:
Total: 43
First hits on frame 6
Standing Grab first grabs frame 16
Dash Grab first grabs on frame 17
Pivot Grab first grabs on frame 17
Jump airborne on frame 5
SH airborne for 46 frames
Spot Dodge lasts 25 frames – invincible frames 2 – 20
Roll Back lasts 37 frames – invincible frames 4 – 19
Roll Forward lasts 27 frames – invincible frames 4 – 15
Air Dodge lasts 39 frames – invincible frames 4 - 29
EDIT: Updated with a little more information including some frame "advantage" stuff and the Air Dodge.
Orichalcum
Smash Journeyman
Im havin a hard time to believe the dodge and roll frames are true LOL
DeliciousCake
Smash Lord
There is absolutely no way her first invincibility is 2 frames in for her spot-dodge. Other than that it's good to see that the frames are consistent in comparison to my old ones.
3GOD
Smash Ace
Well unless there is something odd about ZSS jab that I don't know, the info for the rolls/dodge is correct.
ZSS is invincible to another ZSS jab on frame 2 of her dodge and frame 4 of both of her rolls...I'll try checking it out with some other attacks and see if it makes any difference.
She also dodges the initial frames of Wario's Chomp on frame 2 of her dodge...I think the data is accurate.
Takumaru
Smash Lord
3GOD, <33333. I looked through most of the topics in the ZSS Resource center and couldn't find this info.
DeliciousCake
Smash Lord
It's incomplete, but it was right there. Look harder next time.
Adapt
Smash Lord
Mind if I add this to my attack statistics thread? Maybe I can add the stuff you have as well Cake? The only things with large discrepancies are the dodges, everything else seems ok
DeliciousCake
Smash Lord
Go for it. I still don't know how 3GOD is getting his information though.
3GOD
Smash Ace
I capture the video using a lossless codec and then "deinterlace" it to get 60 frames per second.
For the dodges, I hooked up two controllers and chose two ZSS (one for jabbing since it's a 1 frame hit box). Time the spot dodge and jab almost simultaneously. When I analyzed the video, ZSS was never hit on frame 2 even when the other ZSS jabbed on that frame. I did similar tests for rolling (using a platform to ensure that she didn't roll out of the range of the jab).
Then, just to make sure that something wasn't funny about her dodging ZSS's jab, I had Wario Chomp (neutral B) which first grabs people on frame 8. Then I did several tests and analyzed the video. ZSS again was not vulnerable to the beginning frame of the chomp grab box when she was on frame 2 of her spot dodge.
Also, I noticed a couple of discrepancies (small though) with the data you posted in that other thread - Utilt was different by one frame, Side-B by a couple of frames, etc.
I'm not sure how you determined the invincibility for the spot dodge, but if it's based on a visual cue of the "blinking" for invincibility, that could account for that difference. For some reason, the characters don't blink until a few frames after their invincibility begins for dodges, rolls, and air dodges (not sure about ledge grabs).
Feel free to include it. I'm almost certain that the stuff I've presented is accurate, but I'm willing to investigate things further if needed.
Takumaru
Smash Lord
That sounds insanely complicated and time consuming.
DeliciousCake
Smash Lord
Your information is probably more accurate than mine, as I didn't have a capture card to read the frames with at the time. However, you can look at all the raw data on the wiki page. For the dodges I used the initial invincibility blink animation as the start time.
3GOD
Smash Ace
Yeah, it does take a while - mainly things like figuring out shield stun and invincibility frames, etc. Actually, finding the initial frames for hit boxes only takes a few minutes though. Probably all the data I listed took 30-45 minutes to collect.
Ah, that's the difference on the dodges for sure. I don't know why, but the makers of Brawl decided to make the blinking/flashing appear 5 frames after the actual invincibility begins. I'm very curious how you got estimations so close without a capture card before? Did you use a VCR or something and capture it later?
Takumaru
Smash Lord
No, Cake is just that awesome. Thus proving Cake > Pie.
DeliciousCake
Smash Lord
I used a stopwatch in 1/4 time in training. 30 trials per move. Then some math. Presto. It was never meant to be perfect.
Data I collected over a 3-4 day period:
http://smash.scribblewiki.com/Zamus/raw_data
Also, calculating hitboxes for her U-smash is literally impossible without being able to actually see the hitboxes. Because of the time-freeze effect on each of the hits, you'll never get the actual frame that the hitboxes come out, as they'll be spaced further apart due to the increasing amount of extra frames in the animation. Unless you attempt to jump a character into her U-smash at certain points, which would be pretty much a pain to attempt.
Data I collected over a 3-4 day period:
http://smash.scribblewiki.com/Zamus/raw_data
Also, calculating hitboxes for her U-smash is literally impossible without being able to actually see the hitboxes. Because of the time-freeze effect on each of the hits, you'll never get the actual frame that the hitboxes come out, as they'll be spaced further apart due to the increasing amount of extra frames in the animation. Unless you attempt to jump a character into her U-smash at certain points, which would be pretty much a pain to attempt.
James Sparrow
Smash Master
this thread got really interesting.
3GOD
Smash Ace
Yeah, that sounds like more of a pain than my method. As for the Usmash and other multi-hit attacks, you are correct that it's a major pain to figure out all the hit boxes which is why I only do the first hit box. This is also the reason I don't figure out how long hit boxes "stay out."