ZSS Frame Trap Compendium

[Dr. Tuen]

No he's talking about nB (charged or baby) to grab.

So if your opponent shields one of these, they can't avoid the grab? Is this really legit?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

They can but it's hard, also depends on the distance obviously.

 

[xxpatgxx]

So if your opponent shields one of these, they can't avoid the grab? Is this really legit?

The shield pressure they receive is pretty much how long it's going to take for you to do a quick grab followup. You just have to have relatively quick timing.

 

[Dakpo]

pat! you alive?

 

[xxpatgxx]

pat! you alive?

I'm ****ing living it up!!!

<3

 

[Dakpo]

<3 go **** some tournies plz

 

[Dr. Tuen]

They can but it's hard, also depends on the distance obviously.

The shield pressure they receive is pretty much how long it's going to take for you to do a quick grab followup. You just have to have relatively quick timing.

If someone more frame savvy could help, I'd like the numbers on this. All I can seem to get out of the gigantic spread sheet is that the weak and strong shots take 22 and 42 frames to complete, respectively.

I'd like to know how much shield stun other characters are put into. This could tell us a little bit about the ideal spacing for this on-shield (closer would be bad... they'd get hit an begin shield stun while our move is cooling down).

 

[DeLux]

inb4
frame data indicates it's a risk/reward setup and not a true frame trap

 

[Dr. Tuen]

This has been rendered inaccurate. It will be updated as soon as my knowledge of the paralyzer frame data has been sufficiently updated.

Spoiler

Haha! Found it. Note that our grab is out on Frame 16. Also note that I don't see IASA frames for Neutral B.

OK, I figured out the rest of the pieces here. That excel sheet is really hard to read! In fact... here's a clip.

Please tell me if I have read this wrong!

===============================================
===============================================

Neutral B - Strong
Start - 20 Frames (there is no SpecialNStartH)
Shoot - 41 Frames
Total Animation Duration - 61 Frames
SHOT DURATION - 42 FRAMES [The shot is out 1 frame longer than your animation]

Shield Hitlag - 7 Frames
Shield Stun - 2 Frames
Frames until opponent's next action begins - 16 Frames (shield drop is 7 frames)

COUNTING THE FIRST FRAME OF THE SHOT AS FRAME 1:
The projectile must hit on FRAME 41 OF THE SHOT ANIMATION or later for the combination to be a frame trap.

IF THE OPPONENT SPOT DODGES (they gain invincibility 2 frames after hitlag/shieldstun wear off), THIS IS INVALIDATED.
The projectile would have to hit 5 frames later (allowing us more time to recover)... i.e. on "Frame 46" of the shot animation... which does not exist.

===

Neutral B - Weak
Start - 20 Frames
Shoot - 21 Frames
Total Animation Duration - 41
SHOT DURATION - 22 FRAMES [The shot is out 1 frame longer than your animation]

Shield Hitlag - 6 Frames
Shield Stun - 1 Frame
Frames until opponent's next action begins - 13 Frames (shield drop is 7 frames)

COUNTING THE FIRST FRAME OF THE SHOT AS FRAME 1:
The projectile must hit on "FRAME 24" OF THE SHOT ANIMATION or later for the combination to be a frame trap.

There is no "Frame 24" of this shot animation... SO THE WEAK SHOT CANNOT TRULY FRAME TRAP

IF THE OPPONENT SPOT DODGES (they gain invincibility 2 frames after hitlag/shieldstun wear off), THIS IS FURTHER INVALIDATED.
The projectile would have to hit 5 frames later (allowing us more time to recover)... i.e. on "Frame 29" of the shot animation... which does not exist.

===============================================
===============================================

Summary:

Strong Shot
vs Spot Dodging - This is not a frame trap unless the spot dodge comes out 5 frames late.
vs All Other Options - This is a frame trap if the projectile hits on its last frame.

Weak Shot
This does not frame trap at all.

 

[phi1ny3]

I see my friend Tuen is finding the joy of frame data

 

[B.A.M.]

ahhhhh finally ppl trying to push the compendiums along!

Keep the stuff coming. Ill update them in to the OP soon. And nice to see the exact frames, I knew they were frame traps already though lol. Shouldve said something.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Finished!

TL;DR - Strong shot frame traps on the last frame of the projectile animation if the opponent doesn't spot dodge. Weak shot cannot frame trap at all.

 

[Zero]

So.

Can we dash forward after a fully charged paralyser, charge down smash and hit them with through spot dodge? A few of those and most opponents are gonna keep shielding.

Or roll.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

So.

Can we dash forward after a fully charged paralyser, charge down smash and hit them with through spot dodge? A few of those and most opponents are gonna keep shielding.

Or roll.

This is a really strong option, yeah. We have advantage on shield, so unless they jump over the paralyzer shot instead of going for a defensive option you can't lose.

 

[Zero]

If only her dash wasn't so garbage, then this would be absolutely amazing. But I guess we need the length of her dash to make it a "safe" ish option.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Depending on the length you can foxtrot

 

[Dr. Tuen]

The analysis on the dsmash follow up has been rendered inaccurate, and will be updated as soon as it is cleared up.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Dsmash has like 20 frames of startup

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Dsmash has like 20 frames of startup

The spreadsheet claims 16... I fixed my previous post of 12, I read that off of F-smash.

==

I may have thought of something rad... I'll write it up after work. :-D

 

[Dakpo]

Haha! Found it. Note that our grab is out on Frame 16. Also note that I don't see IASA frames for Neutral B.

OK, I figured out the rest of the pieces here. That excel sheet is really hard to read! In fact... here's a clip.

Please tell me if I have read this wrong!

===============================================
===============================================

Neutral B - Strong
Start - 20 Frames (there is no SpecialNStartH)
Shoot - 41 Frames
Total Animation Duration - 61 Frames
SHOT DURATION - 42 FRAMES [The shot is out 1 frame longer than your animation]

Shield Hitlag - 7 Frames
Shield Stun - 2 Frames
Frames until opponent's next action begins - 16 Frames (shield drop is 7 frames)

COUNTING THE FIRST FRAME OF THE SHOT AS FRAME 1:
The projectile must hit on FRAME 41 OF THE SHOT ANIMATION or later for the combination to be a frame trap.

IF THE OPPONENT SPOT DODGES (they gain invincibility 2 frames after hitlag/shieldstun wear off), THIS IS INVALIDATED.
The projectile would have to hit 5 frames later (allowing us more time to recover)... i.e. on "Frame 46" of the shot animation... which does not exist.

===

Neutral B - Weak
Start - 20 Frames
Shoot - 21 Frames
Total Animation Duration - 41
SHOT DURATION - 22 FRAMES [The shot is out 1 frame longer than your animation]

Shield Hitlag - 6 Frames
Shield Stun - 1 Frame
Frames until opponent's next action begins - 13 Frames (shield drop is 7 frames)

COUNTING THE FIRST FRAME OF THE SHOT AS FRAME 1:
The projectile must hit on "FRAME 24" OF THE SHOT ANIMATION or later for the combination to be a frame trap.

There is no "Frame 24" of this shot animation... SO THE WEAK SHOT CANNOT TRULY FRAME TRAP

IF THE OPPONENT SPOT DODGES (they gain invincibility 2 frames after hitlag/shieldstun wear off), THIS IS FURTHER INVALIDATED.
The projectile would have to hit 5 frames later (allowing us more time to recover)... i.e. on "Frame 29" of the shot animation... which does not exist.

===============================================
===============================================

Summary:

Strong Shot
vs Spot Dodging - This is not a frame trap unless the spot dodge comes out 5 frames late.
vs All Other Options - This is a frame trap if the projectile hits on its last frame.

Weak Shot
This does not frame trap at all.

Bleh...i dont get this... Are you basically saying that if the shield a fully charged neutral specal attack then we can get a grab before they can do anything? or what

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Bleh...i dont get this... Are you basically saying that if the shield a fully charged neutral specal attack then we can get a grab before they can do anything? or what

If you use the paralyzer shot and notice that your opponent does not spot dodge (and just shields to... jump or something) then it will frame trap if you hit them with the veeeery end of the shot.

If your opponent attempts to spot dodge, then it will come out before your grab does. You can try to cover it with a different move, but I'm not sure if we can cover that distance and do something useful in time.

 

[Dakpo]

kk thanks, ill try to remember that...although I'm not sure would i could frame trap with though

 

[Dr. Tuen]

kk thanks, ill try to remember that...although I'm not sure would i could frame trap with though

I also may have an idea for an easier way to represent that. Hmm, I'm bursting with ideas today! Work needs to be over >.>

 

[DeLux]

Tuen-

You need to take into account :
- the IGU/Frame velocity of a paralyzer shot in terms of it's a frame trap
- the frame times of ZSS's fastest options (most likely from dash in order to cover that distance)

Based on the numbers you're presenting I don't think it's a true frame trap, but it does acts a giant setup for grab RPS.

For example:

Paralyzer > Opponent Shields > Zss chases projectile being covered on approach:

Option A, opponent doesn't drop shield: Punished by dash grab > beaten by spot dodge
Option B, Opponent does drop shield and attacks: Dash attack/Usmash quickly or shield grab > beaten by shield hold
Option C, Opponent does spot dodge: Run past opponent and pivot grab > beaten by dropping shield and attacking early

Mixing up using a read for Option C imo is the safest since spot dodges are slow enough that you can react to them. If the opponent decides to hold their shield up, instead of going for the pivot grab, one can then SH > Bair frame trap behind them while they are in shield in hopes they drop their shield. They can also reset the paralyzer scenario with a reversal paralyzer out of run, only this time your opponent's shield will be under a substantial amount of more pressure, forcing an option on the opponent's end.

If going for a kill to punish a spot dodge, a player can reliably replace a pivot grab with a reversal plasma whip


I say this fairly confidently in that while I don't play ZSS, this is how the entire IB chaser game functions for Ice Climbers. I'm anywhere between competent and a master off reading grab setups with ICs in that regard.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

The spreadsheet claims 16... I fixed my previous post of 12, I read that off of F-smash.

==

I may have thought of something rad... I'll write it up after work. :-D

16 isnt everything.

16 is what gets negated when you charge. You have to add 4 (or 5, idk) because of charge release

 

[Dr. Tuen]

@Brosuke - Yeah, I think I get it now. That spreadsheet is not the easiest thing to figure out.

===

Also, I need help from somebody with a hacked wii.

The Paralyzer data needs to be updated

Nowhere on there does it tell me when the projectile is first active. It gives startup, "shoot" time, and projectile duration. Which for the strong shot is as follows:

Start: 20 Frames
Shoot: 41 Frames
Projectile Duration: 42 Frames

If you shot on the first "shoot" frame, the projectile would fade away 1 frame after you are able to move. Watch ZSS as she shoots though, this is clearly not the case. The projectile becomes active sometime during the "shoot" frames, I need to know where.

If anyone can get this information, I can update the previous posts about the paralyzer. I also have another idea for a paralyzer frame trap, but I don't want to compile the data before I know this.

Thanks!

 

[rPSIvysaur]

It shoots on frame 2 of no charge and frame 22 for full charge

 

[Dr. Tuen]

It shoots on frame 2 of no charge and frame 22 for full charge

Excellent! This explains why full charge looks so awesome. The projectile lasts 20 frames longer than the firing animation! Thanks a bunch!

I'll have the previous frame analysis updated sometime tomorrow.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

The correction has been made, and the verdict is great!

Strong Paralyzer to grab is a frame trap! (on certain frames)

The text is a bit small, but it should still be understandable. I'll do my best to improve the method of presentation, but for now, this should suffice. Basically, if the opponent gets hit on the last frame of the strong-shot paralyzer, then we have 13 frames to get in to position for a grab. There is some leeway, since getting hit on an earlier paralyzer frame puts the opponent closer to us.

Spoiler

Using this, I can answer the d-smash follow up question too.

If a strong paralyzer shot hits on the last frame, then we have 29 frames to get to the opponent and do something. If you can get to your opponent in 8 frames or less, then the dsmash (20 frames start up, hits on frame 21) will hit.

===

Oh, this also works on power shields. The timing is much more strict (you must hit pretty freaking close to the last firing frame... so space well) and you get 8 movement frames if you're perfect.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Looks pretty good.

After this discussion I decided to try out some more nB and it's working out really well for me. Thanks for the information Tuen!

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Hey all!

Here is the second Paralyzer Frame Trap I thought of. Well, it wasn't exactly my idea, I just saw Nick Riddle do something similar and thought of this.

Strong Aerial Paralyzer --> Opponent Air Dodge --> Weak Aerial Paralyzer

This is a Frame Trap!

The alternative is getting struck by the shot, but that leads to ZSS jumping in to a fair (this is what I saw Nick do). I'd add frames for that... but I don't know how long the strong and weak shots stun for. They might be damage dependent too... so there's that.

I covered two options (Strong Paralyzer to Strong Paralyzer and Strong Paralyzer to Weak Paralyzer) vs two different types of opponents (those with 39 frame air dodges and those with 49 frame air dodges... 95% of the cast falls into those two categories).

The breakdown is below:

Spoiler

This also only works on people who have similar falling speeds to ours. Here's a short list of people who are close to our falling speed (characters above ZSS fall slower, characters below fall faster).

10. Donkey Kong (1.58)
10. Sheik (1.58)
12. Marth (1.50)
12. Pikachu (1.50)
14. Sonic (1.45)
15. Diddy Kong (1.43)
15. Zero Suit Samus (1.43)
17. Pit (1.42)
18. Wario (1.40) [he may be able to just DI away fast enough to provide himself with a 3rd option]
19. Bowser (1.39)
19. Meta Knight (1.39)
21. Lucas (1.37)
22. Charizard (1.35)
22. Ivysaur (1.35)
24. Ness (1.31)

Thanks to DeLux for the fall speed link!

===

Fixed the images so they are huge and easy to read.

Enjoy!

 

[DeLux]

Tuen, for fall speed comparison: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=244329

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Tuen, for fall speed comparison: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=244329

Thanks a bunch. Various Smash Lab member support in this analysis has been very efficient and helpful :-).

==

I also edited the first frame trap to discuss what happens when an opponent power shields. If done perfectly, the frame trap still works.

 

[infiniteV115]

Is bair>bair ever a frame trap?
Or landing bair>uair?

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Are you talking about bair>opponent air dodge>bair/uair?

If so, we can look at the best case scenario and go from there.

=======================================
Relevant Data

bair
duration - 38 Frames [no IASA frames]
Hit frames - 8 to 10

air dodge
long - 49 frames
short - 39 frames
invincible - 4-29 (generally works for either length)

=======================================

If your opponent air dodges (long air dodge) so that the hitbox frames of bair align with the FIRST invulnerability frames (Frames 2-4) of their air dodge, then you'll both have a certain amount of time left to wait...

ZSS - 28 Frames
Opponent (long air dodge) - 45 Frames

You'll have 17 frames to act before your opponent can move again.
So this can frame trap. Our uair comeso out on frame 4. If you were close enough for the bair to go through your opponent, you can either fast fall or jump to catch up and rail them with the inevitable uair :-p.

Let's look at a worse case scenario: long air dodging opponent but they time it so that your bair goes through their LAST invincibility frames (Frames 27-29). The time you both have to wait before acting again is listed below:

ZSS: 28 Frames
Opponent (long air dodge): 20 Frames

Your opponent can act 8 frames before you can[/I]. So this no longer frame traps. :-/. To make it work (in a frame perfect sense) we have to back up the timing of the air dodge 8 frames plus the frames it takes to execute a move (uair, hits on frame 4). If you subtract 12 frames off of the air dodge timing, you get this:

If a LONG air dodging opponent air dodges such that the bair hits their invincibility frames between frame 2 and 15, this frame traps into uair.

This analysis can be done again for the quick air dodge, but the last frame this applies to has to be backed up 10 frames since the dodge ends faster.

If a SHORT air dodging opponent air dodges such that the bair hits their invincibility frames between frame 2 and 5, this frame traps into uair.

So it's WAY harder to do here. Keep a list of the long and short air dodges with you... [http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=225510]

=======================================

TL;DR

bair --> opponent air dodge --> uair CAN frame trap if the opponent times the air dodge to utilize early invulnerability frames.

Fancy pictures will be added later.

 

[infiniteV115]

Didn't know about long/short air dodges. DAMN Peach's air dodge SUCKS LOL
And thanks, but I meant bair hits opponent>bair hits opponent again before they can do anything about it
And I also meant bair hits opponent> land and uair before they can do anything about it

That was definitely useful info though. I often go for the kill with bair, have it miss and then don't do anything else. I'll uair from now on!

 

[infiniteV115]

Intentional double post.
Is ac nair-->utilt a frame trap? It seems like it is at lower percents.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

No it's not.

Nair is -10.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

No it's not.

Nair is -10.

On landing. And when reviewing the data, I'm not 100% sure the advantages are calculated correctly... Even so, that serves well as an approximation for landing advantage.

The advantage in the air (if you had intended to do this to a shielding opponent on a platform) is even WORSE. My mental calculations put the advantage at -39, but the page says it's -44. So it's pretty bad.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

-10 feels about accurate, using it.

God I love shorthop uair, landing nair for shield pressure.