ZSGD - Now in 3D/HD

[Tobi_Whatever]

@ DeLux So I basically fell asleep in front of my monitor shortly before your tourney started and I just rewatched it.
First congrats on 2nd place and on beating Diddys and Sheiks left and right.
Second, the thing that surprised and impressed me the most were your nSpecial bounce mixups because I've never actually seen that properly in action.

I fell that we really should talk about combo percents though. Like you had situations where you did dThrow > uSpecial and it missed where dThrow > uAir > uSpecial would have been a true combo and would have been safer on miss.
The opposite happened too, when you tried to go for something > uAir > uSpecial and it missed or you were too low for it to hit correctly.
Your uSpecial pressure in general was amazing and you got most of your kills out of that but there were some situations where I was asking myself why you went for it.

Anyway, great games, great to watch, especially against Diddy. You really reminded them how early they die.

 

[Remzi]

Good work DeLux!

Got 7th at Xanadu last night. There were 7 man pools, 3 got out.

In brackets, I beat Shofu, EE, Smash G0D, and Pink Fresh. Lost to Boss and Seagull, both being really close. Beat a bunch more in pools as well, Blur beating the most notable of those. I'll post vids when theyre up.

Officer Jenny was there too, I think she got 17th?

*EDIT: Aaaaand here is the results thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-xanadu-wii-u-monthly.386495/

 

[DeLux]

I fell that we really should talk about combo percents though. Like you had situations where you did dThrow > uSpecial and it missed where dThrow > uAir > uSpecial would have been a true combo and would have been safer on miss.
The opposite happened too, when you tried to go for something > uAir > uSpecial and it missed or you were too low for it to hit correctly.
Your uSpecial pressure in general was amazing and you got most of your kills out of that but there were some situations where I was asking myself why you went for it.

I agree.

I'm not going to john, but let me talk about my mindset a little bit. These are local tournaments for "small money". I use these as testing grounds to see what I can/can't get away with come regional/national time. So I tend to play super YOLO at these locals, and unfortunately that play style tends to carry over into regional/nationals more than I like. Also, from a symbolic interactionist standpoint, I want to be able to look myself in the mirror and see the reason why lost as opposed to letting someone or something else be why I lost. So if the choice is to go for it or not go for it, I tend to go for it. It's a personality flaw/quirk/trait/romance.

That being said, the hard part about the combo guarantees are that it's a multi-variable function. I need to do more lab time, but the added variables of staleness, opponent %, my %, strong/weak hitbox frame data, strong/weak hitbox spacing is a lot to process. I have a few ideas on how to quantify it reliably, but nothing concrete since we lack reliable debug modes.

TLDR - Live by the boost kick, die by the boost kick. Only those who dare to go too far truly know how far they can go. I was born in this age of iron to restore the age of gold to mankind.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I agree.

I'm not going to john, but let me talk about my mindset a little bit. These are local tournaments for "small money". I use these as testing grounds to see what I can/can't get away with come regional/national time. So I tend to play super YOLO at these locals, and unfortunately that play style tends to carry over into regional/nationals more than I like. Also, from a symbolic interactionist standpoint, I want to be able to look myself in the mirror and see the reason why lost as opposed to letting someone or something else be why I lost. So if the choice is to go for it or not go for it, I tend to go for it. It's a personality flaw/quirk/trait/romance.

That being said, the hard part about the combo guarantees are that it's a multi-variable function. I need to do more lab time, but the added variables of staleness, opponent %, my %, strong/weak hitbox frame data, strong/weak hitbox spacing is a lot to process. I have a few ideas on how to quantify it reliably, but nothing concrete since we lack reliable debug modes.

TLDR - Live by the boost kick, die by the boost kick. Only those who dare to go too far truly know how far they can go. I was born in this age of iron to restore the age of gold to mankind.

I really like that mindset, we wouldn't learn new stuff if we wouldn't try it after all.
I started to test combos in training to get percents and I actually could translate some of them in actual fights, especially uAir chains into uSpecial.
I'd really like to help out the board by compiling some data.

Small question regarding training mode, afaik there is no rage but there are stale moves, is that correct?

 

[pichuthedk]

Congrats Delux, the sheik MU is weird because she wins in neutral but we are better at most everything else like damage output, mobility, and kill potential.

Probably depends on stage and how you use zss. When I face shieks that are competent they cross me up etremely easily (although I'm sure it's because I try to retort back at their insabe pressure and then start missing things like tilts because of the way she moves/ lands from her attacked.

But for somereason most of the shieks I've faced have gone for needles at the start I've gotten so many short hop side bs after the announcer said go xD.

 

[David Viran]

I really like that mindset, we wouldn't learn new stuff if we wouldn't try it after all.
I started to test combos in training to get percents and I actually could translate some of them in actual fights, especially uAir chains into uSpecial.
I'd really like to help out the board by compiling some data.

Small question regarding training mode, afaik there is no rage but there are stale moves, is that correct?

Not true, training has no stailing.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Not true, training has no stailing.

K thanks.

 

[DeLux]

Time to understand why

 

[David Viran]

Teach me your ways.

 

[Shaya]

First hit of ZSS Up-B with rage + G&W super light weight + him charging a smash I guess.

 

[BatShark]

I see no possible way the first hit, no matter the rage, and no matter the weight, does that to him at 0%. I can't say for certain how significant the charging-a-smash knockback amplifier is, but I just don't see any of those normal factors adding up to THAT at 0%, unless there's some wonky multiplicative stuff going on.

If I had to guess, much of it has to do with the sort of wonky knockback behavior that the first and last hits of multi-hit moves have.

Wild silly dumb theory? Her wall jump or turnaround had something to do with it. I have no basis for this.

 

[David Viran]

I see no possible way the first hit, no matter the rage, and no matter the weight, does that to him at 0%. I can't say for certain how significant the charging-a-smash knockback amplifier is, but I just don't see any of those normal factors adding up to THAT at 0%, unless there's some wonky multiplicative stuff going on.

If I had to guess, much of it has to do with the sort of wonky knockback behavior that the first and last hits of multi-hit moves have.

Wild silly dumb theory? Her wall jump or turnaround had something to do with it. I have no basis for this.

Actually I think what @ Shaya said was correct. The first hits of up b is set knockback but can get much more powerful with rage and I think charging the smash attack is why he died.

 

[Dakpo]

Just won a 61 person tournament, vids should be up soon

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Time to understand why

Could anyone reproduce this yet?

 

[pichuthedk]

Tournament today and I'm exhausted but Yolo, hopefully I can murder a shiek or two.

If I have the HP afterwords I'll type up yoshi MU post suggestions for what character to cover next, also write what ever you guys have in regards to the MU as well please & thank you.

 

[Vinylic.]

@NickRiddle Dude, excellent ZSS at paragon. Congrats at 2nd place.

I wish I could ask you for friendlies though; I didn't have the chance to.

 

[LordFluffy]

Sunday is another local for me, haven't had a chance to practice at all so i'm gonna be grinding those friendlies like mad. 3DS version only helps so much when all you can manage is online where with your internet its hit or miss whether its a good connection

 

[InfinityCollision]

Could anyone reproduce this yet?

I've done it a few times, albeit never killed with it. Shaya's analysis is probably accurate. It's not something I'd expect to kill in most situations. Maybe from an upper platform, but even then it'd only matter at lower percents where the late hit wouldn't kill. There's still a few moves that can do this (have also done it with Ike's upb etc), but it's pretty finicky.

 

[Jords2Good]

So I fought a ZSS player not too long ago and..........I never got rekt in this many matches in row til now.
This was embarrassing.
I have some videos to share, and yes, I recorded from a phone. Highlights cant be forgotten. I do plan on buying a HD PVR2 though.
Anyways here it is.
4 gameplay videos of me and him.

Spoiler

part 1

part 2

part 3

part 4

These combos are destroying when playing agasint this guy. Most of the time when her lasers hit me I would get combo'd hard and its sometimes hard to escape them.
She has combos that lead to her down B spike! You probably notice I that my main is Sonic and This player has given me the most difficult time that day. I was eager to learn this match up but I've failed miserably. I need help.

Is there something I'm missing? Is sonic just not good against her? Or this specific player?

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

So I fought a ZSS player not too long ago and..........I never got rekt in this many matches in row til now.
This was embarrassing.
I have some videos to share, and yes, I recorded from a phone. Highlights cant be forgotten. I do plan on buying a HD PVR2 though.
Anyways here it is.
4 gameplay videos of me and him.

Spoiler

part 1

part 2

part 3

part 4

These combos are destroying when playing agasint this guy. Most of the time when her lasers hit me I would get combo'd hard and its sometimes hard to escape them.
She has combos that lead to her down B spike! You probably notice I that my main is Sonic and This player has given me the most difficult time that day. I was eager to learn this match up but I've failed miserably. I need help.

Is there something I'm missing? Is sonic just not good against her? Or this specific player?

Part 1: you could have air dodged the first kill in the first match
the whole uAir sting at the start of the second match was avoidable just by air dodging
Part 2: Again, first kill of first set was dodgeable, the uAir sting shortly after that too.
Second fight, bThrow > dSpecial can be DI'd, at lower percent DI down, at higher percent DI up. You could have DI'd up in the second fight and down in the third.
Fight 4: nAir > dSpecial. That's an ugly one because you can't even DI it. DI just makes it harder but not impossible.
You could have DI'd down to avoid the second kill.

I didn't watch the last two. Anyway, you do 1 major mistake.
You're too aggressive. You threw out attacks instead of dodges when you were in a disadvantageous situation like uAir strings and
you threw out laggy attacks that led to grabs/nAirs and other fancy stuff.
ZSS' neutral game isn't very good, but her punishes are probably the hardest in the game.
Your aim should be to pressure constantly without overcommitting. Don't try to just hit her and hope that it connects, pressure and wait for mistakes to punish instead. ZSS has a lot of laggy moves, capitalize on that.

Now to the good news.
1. That ZSS player was really freakin solid. There is no shame in losing to such a capable player.
2. You have room for relatively easy improvement. You didn't lose because you reaction time was too slow or your character too bad. I'm not saying you should play more passive, but more safe. Don't overcommit and you should be good to go.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Time to understand why

I like the theory on the youtube page. This might work similarly to the "one inch punch" technique of the Mii Brawler. The first hit may be meant to have crazy strong knockback to guarantee at least a few of the follow up hits. Hitting with it by itself may result in a huge single-hit KO for some characters. In this case, rage+charged smash helped, but on the top platform of Battlfield, provided this is the correct explanation, no one would be safe!

 

[pichuthedk]

I like the theory on the youtube page. This might work similarly to the "one inch punch" technique of the Mii Brawler. The first hit may be meant to have crazy strong knockback to guarantee at least a few of the follow up hits. Hitting with it by itself may result in a huge single-hit KO for some characters. In this case, rage+charged smash helped, but on the top platform of Battlfield, provided this is the correct explanation, no one would be safe!

See I knew it people were posting this on Facebook with salt .
I merely laughed cause I was like he charged a smash as one of the lightest characters I the game vs a launch move with someone having rage.

 

[Shaya]

Fair has come to likely be my favourite move on ZSS.

Sakurai angle, kills people, probably her best edge guarding move (go deep, even use your double jump because DOWN B BACK HEH HEH HEH).

Sakurai angles are great because it forces people into the ground where when they don't tech I get free dash up-b's!

Also I thought I could try tap jump off, but then I realised I couldn't Up-B out of shield easily and gave up~

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Fair has come to likely be my favourite move on ZSS.

Sakurai angle, kills people, probably her best edge guarding move (go deep, even use your double jump because DOWN B BACK HEH HEH HEH).

Sakurai angles are great because it forces people into the ground where when they don't tech I get free dash up-b's!

Also I thought I could try tap jump off, but then I realised I couldn't Up-B out of shield easily and gave up~

So... I've heard the term "Sakurai Angle" in some of the conversations regarding Smash 4 data parsing. You've implied what it does in your description here, but I'd like to be sure. Is it anything with a downward, non-spiking (so not meteor cancel-able) angle?

As for tap jump off, I shield with the left trigger and jump with the right (only for OoS stuff). I used to be unable to do so, but Smash 3DS trained a left trigger shield habit. Something to consider, if you still want to turn off tap jump!

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

So... I've heard the term "Sakurai Angle" in some of the conversations regarding Smash 4 data parsing. You've implied what it does in your description here, but I'd like to be sure. Is it anything with a downward, non-spiking (so not meteor cancel-able) angle?

As for tap jump off, I shield with the left trigger and jump with the right (only for OoS stuff). I used to be unable to do so, but Smash 3DS trained a left trigger shield habit. Something to consider, if you still want to turn off tap jump!

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Sakurai_angle

 

[Dr. Tuen]

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Sakurai_angle

Ah, probably should google before I ask! Though I like community interaction better as a rule. What a weird thing to happen in the game. Still, sounds pretty rad to have that on our fair. I'll have to check it out more!

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Ah, probably should google before I ask! Though I like community interaction better as a rule. What a weird thing to happen in the game. Still, sounds pretty rad to have that on our fair. I'll have to check it out more!

Yeah I first felt like making a short summary but then I thought it would be too inferior to the article anyway.

 

[Shaya]

Yeah, at lower knockbacks it sends them straight downwards.
I know/expect this.

My issue is that I always try to dsmash the non-tech and it's too slow, yet everytime I just dash up-b it, it works. SO MANY KILLS WASTED

Oh yeah, it also exists on our forward tilt. So those two moves are kinda my go-to pokes because they force techs usually / have pretty set trajectories.

 

[CeLL]

I was wondering about dthrow -> up B and also combos off zair. My guess is that zair would combo simply because it forces the opponent to land (or jump, I suppose, but nobody I've played has jumped), which always has lag, even just an empty landing (unless that changed).

Also when you ground someone with down B, but below kill percents, what's a good follow up?

Btw if Fox is below the stage recovering with Fire Fox you can go past him towards the blast zone and down B towards stage and spike him lol. My favorite edgeguard.

About up B OoS without tap jump, I just press Y to jump and then up B. Yes, it starts on the ground still, you just have to be fast.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I was wondering about dthrow -> up B and also combos off zair. My guess is that zair would combo simply because it forces the opponent to land (or jump, I suppose, but nobody I've played has jumped), which always has lag, even just an empty landing (unless that changed).

Also when you ground someone with down B, but below kill percents, what's a good follow up?

Btw if Fox is below the stage recovering with Fire Fox you can go past him towards the blast zone and down B towards stage and spike him lol. My favorite edgeguard.

About up B OoS without tap jump, I just press Y to jump and then up B. Yes, it starts on the ground still, you just have to be fast.

dThrow > uSpecial theoretically works until over 200% but if you don't execute it perfectly and miss you will eat a big punish. That includes soft reading the DI.
Best followup from dSpecial bury is dSmash from ~50% up into uSpecial of if your opponent mashes supersonic just do uSpecial.

 

[DeLux]

dakpo vs denti coming up in wsf soon http://www.twitch.tv/TourneyLocator

 

[DeLux]

I lied he's going Luigi

GGS DOUBLE POST WORTHY

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I lied he's going Luigi

GGS DOUBLE POST WORTHY

Well that was intense nevertheless.
Did he do the whole tourney with Luigi?

 

[Dakpo]

Well that was intense nevertheless.
Did he do the whole tourney with Luigi?

I used Zss against a good Ness. I use luigi against diddy and I had 4 diddy kongs out of 6 opponents....

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I used Zss against a good Ness. I use luigi against diddy and I had 4 diddy kongs out of 6 opponents....

And you used him against Pikachu, which is understandable as well.

 

[Dakpo]

And you used him against Pikachu, which is understandable as well.

This is what my idea of characters to use in certain matchups


Bowser(Intended)Zero Suit Samus
Bowser Jr.Zero Suit Samus
Captain FalconLuigi
Charizard[1]Zero Suit Samus
Dark Pit Luigi
Diddy KongLuigi
Donkey KongZero Suit Samus
Dr. MarioZero Suit Samus
Duck HuntZero Suit Samus
FalcoLuigi?
FoxLuigi? Not sure yet
GanondorfLol does it matter?
GreninjaZero Suit Samus/luigi

IkeLuigi

JigglypuffZero Suit Samus
King DededeZero Suit Samus
KirbyZero Suit Samus
LinkZero Suit Samus/Luigi
LucarioZero Suit Samus/luigi

LucinaZero Suit Samus
LuigiZero Suit Samus
MarioZero Suit Samus
MarthZero Suit Samus
Mega ManZero Suit Samus
Meta KnightZero Suit Samus
Mewtwo(Intended)Zero Suit Samus
Mii Fighter???
Mr. Game & WatchZero Suit Samus
NessZero Suit Samus
OlimarLuigi
Pac-ManZero Suit Samus
PalutenaZero Suit Samus
PeachZero Suit Samus

PikachuLuigi
PitLuigi

Zero Suit Samus
Zero Suit Samus
Zero Suit Samus

Zero Suit Samus
Luigi/Zero Suit Samus
Zero Suit Samus/luigi?

Zero Suit Samus

Zero Suit Samus
Zero Suit Samus
Zero Suit Samus
Zero Suit Samus/luigi?

Zero Suit Samus

Zero Suit Samus

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

This is what my idea of characters to use in certain matchups


Bowser(Intended)Zero Suit Samus
Bowser Jr.Zero Suit Samus
Captain FalconLuigi
Charizard[1]Zero Suit Samus
Dark Pit Luigi
Diddy KongLuigi
Donkey KongZero Suit Samus
Dr. MarioZero Suit Samus
Duck HuntZero Suit Samus
FalcoLuigi?
FoxLuigi? Not sure yet
GanondorfLol does it matter?
GreninjaZero Suit Samus/luigi

IkeLuigi

JigglypuffZero Suit Samus
King DededeZero Suit Samus
KirbyZero Suit Samus
LinkZero Suit Samus/Luigi
LucarioZero Suit Samus/luigi

LucinaZero Suit Samus
LuigiZero Suit Samus
MarioZero Suit Samus
MarthZero Suit Samus
Mega ManZero Suit Samus
Meta KnightZero Suit Samus
Mewtwo(Intended)Zero Suit Samus
Mii Fighter???
Mr. Game & WatchZero Suit Samus
NessZero Suit Samus
OlimarLuigi
Pac-ManZero Suit Samus
PalutenaZero Suit Samus
PeachZero Suit Samus

PikachuLuigi
PitLuigi

Zero Suit Samus
Zero Suit Samus
Zero Suit Samus

Zero Suit Samus
Luigi/Zero Suit Samus
Zero Suit Samus/luigi?

Zero Suit Samus

Zero Suit Samus
Zero Suit Samus
Zero Suit Samus
Zero Suit Samus/luigi?

Zero Suit Samus

Zero Suit Samus

Do you think Falcon is a bad MU for ZSSamus or just a better one for Luigi? I always hear it's a good one for us but I really struggle against good Falcons.

 

[Dakpo]

Falcon isn't bad for us, be luigi can do it better. Falcon is a very shield based character. Run shield run shield.nthat aggressive shield play style makes have to commit to grabs more.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Went to a small tournament for the first time in years. Got 8/16, which I can't complain about... given the amount of matchup knowledge that was lacking.

Questions!

Shulk - What do we do here? His range is more impressive than I gave it credit for, and things like the shield art with rage and the jump art used offensively are a bit intense. I found out in some friendlies after the tournament loss that offensive jump art isn't great in the neutral if you shield + grab out of it, but if you get popped up, it gets tough to get away. Either way, the fair coverage and bair range are crazy.

Sheik - Can fair be shield grabbed? I feel like that's what I was reading the best, but I got stuffed so much trying to go for a punish of any variety. Am I just not buffering the grab fast enough, or what? I realize that's an option since my fingers are quite rusty. Overall, I also had trouble establishing a mid-paced neutral game. Sheik wanted a fast neutral game, she got it, and I had little say in the matter. Any time we separated, zair was a nice way to keep her away, since she wanted jump-in options so frequently. But dash to grab made me respect the ground game too. I dunno, the pace was just tough to deal with overall.

 

[David Viran]

Went to a small tournament for the first time in years. Got 8/16, which I can't complain about... given the amount of matchup knowledge that was lacking.

Questions!

Shulk - What do we do here? His range is more impressive than I gave it credit for, and things like the shield art with rage and the jump art used offensively are a bit intense. I found out in some friendlies after the tournament loss that offensive jump art isn't great in the neutral if you shield + grab out of it, but if you get popped up, it gets tough to get away. Either way, the fair coverage and bair range are crazy.

Sheik - Can fair be shield grabbed? I feel like that's what I was reading the best, but I got stuffed so much trying to go for a punish of any variety. Am I just not buffering the grab fast enough, or what? I realize that's an option since my fingers are quite rusty. Overall, I also had trouble establishing a mid-paced neutral game. Sheik wanted a fast neutral game, she got it, and I had little say in the matter. Any time we separated, zair was a nice way to keep her away, since she wanted jump-in options so frequently. But dash to grab made me respect the ground game too. I dunno, the pace was just tough to deal with overall.

Shulk has bad aerial deceleration so he has to commit to jumps. When he uses something like speed art I don't know if it makes aerial deceleration better though but ever benefit from an art comes with a weakness too.

Fair cannot be sheild grabbed because our grab is slow but we can oos up b any non spaced move especially at higher percents. This makes the sheik player play a lot more careful. We might be able to sheild grab her ftilt.