ZGD: Livin by a thread.

[Rizen]

^I fell for those.
I remembered the offline MU and played too much like that. Link's wifi/offline metagames are very different too. Zelda's fun to play and is spacing oriented, which I like. She's worth learning.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

I enjoy using Zelda but I don't like her recovery. Probably because I'm not real good at it like I want to be and just don't practice but if it was like Pikachu's Quick Attack then it'd be different.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I don't get it what are you Zelda players spacing with if you're not using her smash attacks? Her safest move on block is fsmash followed by her jab. Someone please let me know how you guys are spacing.

 

[KayLo!]

Fsmash is only one out of three smash moves. x.o Usmash and dsmash are pretty unsafe to "space with" against anyone halfway decent.

Except in lag I guess.

 

[AlanHaTe]

Hey, there's gonna be a national over here in April, but thanks to tkd the ruleset isn't good...

So what do you guys think I could do given the following stages:



Startert list:
Final destination
Batlefield
Yoshi`s island
Pokemon Stadium 1
Smashville

Counterpicks:
Castle siege
Delfino plaza
Frigate orpheon
halberd
Lylat cruise

I know it's a poor stage list with no explanation... but I thought somebody could help me with that ....

P.S. switching to MK doesn't count as a solution because I have already thought of it xD

 

[Rizen]

Why is 2011 the year of Zelda?

 

[KayLo!]

Because someone got real uncreative with the thread title.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Fsmash is only one out of three smash moves. x.o Usmash and dsmash are pretty unsafe to "space with" against anyone halfway decent.

Except in lag I guess.

However, when people try to approach you from the air you use Usmash right? Depending on the character and their dair it should stuff about 95% of approaches from the air. I don't see how dsmash can be used as a spacing tool more so as a GTFO my face type of move. I haven't seen anyone use dtilt for spacing I personal use it for dtilt shenanigans. However, if I'm playing a character without any disjointed hit boxes then Nair jab dtilt all become that much more effective IMO. I also sometimes mix in some pivot grabs. But that's just me.

I don't consider sitting there flicking down on the c stick spacing with Zelda nor is flicking up on the C stick. A lot has to do with your opponents character their range and covering their options. However, I'm willing to attempt trade in just about any situation.

 

[KayLo!]

tl;dr, but @your first sentence: no, not always. Usmash is a solid move and all, but it's really not as safe as you seem to be making it out to be.

Besides, if someone's dairing (or any aerial from above) into you all crazy, they suck.

 

[Veggie123]

Hey, there's gonna be a national over here in April, but thanks to tkd the ruleset isn't good...

So what do you guys think I could do given the following stages:



Startert list:
Final destination
Batlefield
Yoshi`s island
Pokemon Stadium 1
Smashville

Counterpicks:
Castle siege
Delfino plaza
Frigate orpheon
halberd
Lylat cruise

I know it's a poor stage list with no explanation... but I thought somebody could help me with that ....

P.S. switching to MK doesn't count as a solution because I have already thought of it xD

i'm not really one who cares much for stage lists but out of those i'd probably ban delfino or halberd (leaning towards delfino) due to the annoyingness that is sweetspotting the ledge during the moving portion. each has its own jank that can be beneficial but because they are detrimental to an already bad recovery means that it can end up not being pretty. lylat is kinda bad but i find she doesn't do terrible on it. oh yeah, frigate is bad for her recovery too.

zelda can do subpar to decent on the rest of those stages, with battlefield probably being her best stage due to platform shenanigans. yoshis is said to arguably be her worst neutral with those uneven surfaces that more often than not can prevent sweetspot kicks from happening and can make it a nightmare to hit small characters with usmash. on the flipside though if your opponent is higher up it's better for zelda. so it's really up to the one whos in the better position. ps1 can also screw her over pretty bad (hello stage changes while doing a usmash).

castle siege is ok. i find the first part of the stage kind of annoying, the 2nd part has those somewhat useful statues and the 3rd is nothing too special.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

tl;dr, but @your first sentence: no, not always. Usmash is a solid move and all, but it's really not as safe as you seem to be making it out to be.

Besides, if someone's dairing (or any aerial from above) into you all crazy, they suck.

*sigh* I don;t know why I bother anymore. Thanks kaylo.

 

[KayLo!]

Well, I didn't mean that response to be so discouraging. XD But usmash is too laggy at the end to be an effective spacing tool imo.

Maybe we see spacing as different things, but to me, good spacing moves are meant to provide a relatively safe "bubble" around your character. Usmash can't do that because it's too easily baited + punished. Yeah, it's good at intercepting aerials and landings, but that's prediction or punishing bad decision-making on the part of your opponent (or they're **** out of landing options). =\

idk, just my opinion.

 

[MrEh]

Bowser can punish Zelda's Usmash on shield with a friggin Bowser Bomb. That move is hella unsafe.

And yeah, like KayLo said, no one will be jumping at you like that.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Well, I didn't mean that response to be so discouraging. XD But usmash is too laggy at the end to be an effective spacing tool imo.

Maybe we see spacing as different things, but to me, good spacing moves are meant to provide a relatively safe "bubble" around your character. Usmash can't do that because it's too easily baited + punished. Yeah, it's good at intercepting aerials and landings, but that's prediction or punishing bad decision-making on the part of your opponent (or they're **** out of landing options). =\

idk, just my opinion.

the move doesn't get baited the player does.

 

[MrEh]

That doesn't stop it from being an inherently punishable and spammable move, which is good criteria for being baited.

 

[Kisamealex3]

quote:
Originally posted by fuujin
oh lawd yes, hes too good. I'll never be able to match him getting 25 out of 55 in a tournament while going mk , i should just quit right now.
---------------------------------------------
you're really cool. I embarrassed you like...2 or 3 months ago and you're still butthurt.

Not only that but, you're stalking my results and posting about them in places other than the zelda results thread.

=/

-____-

Why can't we zelda mains ever put anything behind us? We can't advance if we're too busy holding petty grudges.

 

[Fuujin]

-____-

Why can't we zelda mains ever put anything behind us? We can't advance if we're too busy holding petty grudges.

I'm not grudging, you're the one who was sayinh I was bad for placing 33 at a 117 tournament when you got 25 out of 55.

You had that comment coming.

 

[Kisamealex3]

I'm not grudging, you're the one who was sayinh I was bad for placing 33 at a 117 tournament when you got 25 out of 55.

You had that comment coming.

Was is past tense (not being disrespectful). I said that like...3 months ago. Also kinda funny how you have nothing to say about my placement in doubles from a tourney during that same time period...seeing how you have so much time to record my results.

You had everything I said 3 months ago coming as well. But, I'm not here to discuss w/e was said 3 months ago regardless of who is at fault. I'm just saying this:

I wasn't even arguing with you. You were arguing with Nakat and although he brought me up, you still posted about me with a grudge being the fuel. And yes, it is a grudge regardless of what title you want to give it.

 

[Rizen]

'Feels like home already

 

[Fuujin]

Was is past tense (not being disrespectful). I said that like...3 months ago. Also kinda funny how you have nothing to say about my placement in doubles from a tourney during that same time period...seeing how you have so much time to record my results.

You had everything I said 3 months ago coming as well. But, I'm not here to discuss w/e was said 3 months ago regardless of who is at fault. I'm just saying this:

I wasn't even arguing with you. You were arguing with Nakat and although he brought me up, you still posted about me with a grudge being the fuel. And yes, it is a grudge regardless of what title you want to give it.

It's not a grudge if I'm not angry.

Kinda funny how you had nothing to say after my four singles placements I posted not too long ago.
Haven't heard a word from you since then.
I personally don't feel they're great but we don't have Zelda doing much better.

I don't know/care how you did in doubles, but you and Riot can't seem to get it into your heads doubles doesn't really have much of an effect on getting Zelda anywhere on the tier list.
Being able to spamming Din's isn't much of an accomplishment.
People don't care about doubles results nearly as much as they do singles.

 

[Kisamealex3]

It's not a grudge if I'm not angry.

Kinda funny how you had nothing to say after my four singles placements I posted not too long ago.
Haven't heard a word from you since then.
I personally don't feel they're great but we don't have Zelda doing much better.

I don't know/care how you did in doubles, but you and Riot can't seem to get it into your heads doubles doesn't really have much of an effect on getting Zelda anywhere on the tier list.
Being able to spamming Din's isn't much of an accomplishment.
People don't care about doubles results nearly as much as they do singles.

You haven't heard a word from me because I don't care about you xD.

I just brought this up so we could come to neutral terms but, I see that's not gonna work. So, instead of embarrassing you again, I'm gonna just go to sleep lol.

 

[Fuujin]

You haven't heard a word from me because I don't care about you xD.

I just brought this up so we could come to neutral terms but, I see that's not gonna work. So, instead of embarrassing you again, I'm gonna just go to sleep lol.

You mind clearing me up on this embarrassing thing?
It's all you seem to be clinging onto against me.

I can't really think back of anything I've been embarrassed by on smash boards.
It's a video game website...

 

[Beluina]

Intro!


What's up with all this saltiness? PM that shiii.

Hello errbody!
Name: Beluina
Region: Gainesville, FL
Tournament or Casual player: Casual, but I'm starting to enter tourneys.
Former teammates and the characters they used: N/A
Costume: Pink!
Sheik: Ehhh. On occasion, but I'm definitely a Zelda girl. :]
Picture...

Fun Facts!
- I'm Japanese.
- If you try talking to me about an anime, chances are, I won't know what you're talking about. Aka, I don't watch anime.
- I go to school at UF, studying classics and psych. [Significant? Probably not...]
- Mehhh, I don't know what else to type.
- I wanna get better at playing Zelda! So, holla. :]

 

[ぱみゅ]

What's up with all this saltiness? PM that shiii.

What an amazing way to intro. You already gained too much points lol

Hello errbody!
Name: Beluina
Region: Gainesville, FL
Tournament or Casual player: Casual, but I'm starting to enter tourneys.
Former teammates and the characters they used: N/A
Costume: Pink!
Sheik: Ehhh. On occasion, but I'm definitely a Zelda girl. :]
Picture...

Fun Facts!
- I'm Japanese.
- If you try talking to me about an anime, chances are, I won't know what you're talking about. Aka, I don't watch anime.
- I go to school at UF, studying classics and psych. [Significant? Probably not...]
- Mehhh, I don't know what else to type.
- I wanna get better at playing Zelda! So, holla. :]

Japanese + not-anime? O_o ... do not compute....

But w/e, welcome to Zelda boards! (:

 

[Beluina]

What an amazing way to intro. You already gained too much points lol

Ha, thanks.

Japanese + not-anime? O_o ... do not compute....

I probably would, but I'm lazy when it comes to looking for the thing to watch, then keeping up with it, etc.

 

[Rizen]

What an amazing way to intro. You already gained too much points lol

welcome to Zelda boards! (:

Tournament or Casual player: Casual, but I'm starting to enter tourneys.
- If you try talking to me about an anime, chances are, I won't know what you're talking about. Aka, I don't watch anime.
- I go to school at UF, studying classics and psych. [Significant? Probably not...]
- Mehhh, I don't know what else to type.
- I wanna get better at playing Zelda! So, holla. :]

Great first impression!

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

That doesn't stop it from being an inherently punishable and spammable move, which is good criteria for being baited.

How can a move with such much cool down be spammable ? It's still up to the player to decide how to use the move. Actually none of Zelda's move a really spmmable maybe dtilt however, you've already pointed out the dangerous associated with usmash. I don't see how you can consider that move spammable.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

- I go to school at UF, studying classics and psych. [Significant? Probably not...]
- Mehhh, I don't know what else to type.

Both of these are significant.

 

[The Phazon Assassin]

Startert list:
Final destination
Batlefield
Yoshi`s island
Pokemon Stadium 1
Smashville

Counterpicks:
Castle siege
Delfino plaza
Frigate orpheon
halberd
Lylat cruise

I know it's a poor stage list with no explanation.

That would be my ideal stage list. We have Norfair and Rainbow Cruise.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

I agree that people bait themselves to be hit by Zelda's smash attacks. Just how I see too many people attempt shield grabs half way through Zelda's Fsmash and part of her Usmash or shield through half way of them and let go of the shield to be hit by the rest of her smashes. I just feel Zelda can't spam that well. In lag maybe since I only feel she is more dangerous in lag than without.

 

[KayLo!]

Welcome, Beluina! Don't mind the little arguments..... that's just how it is around here half the time.

the move doesn't get baited the player does.

True, but some moves are naturally more baitable than others.

It's like this: when a character only has one or two good options in a given situation (very common for Zelda lol), it's easier to bait the move you want because there are less viable choices for the player to make.

If someone is above you or seems to be approaching from the air, you said it yourself:

However, when people try to approach you from the air you use Usmash right? Depending on the character and their dair it should stuff about 95% of approaches from the air.

That mentality is exactly why usmash is easily baited.

But fact is.... if someone still has their double jump or is on the ground, usmash isn't safe at all because it's ridiculously punishable on block or whiff. It's only safe on a guaranteed shield stab or if the opponent has nowhere else to land. Otherwise you're relying on prediction/hope that they're going to run into it.

Fsmash/jab/dtilt on the other hand are relatively okay to use whether you hit, hit shield, or whiff from a reasonable distance, so they're what I would call good spacing moves.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Welcome, Beluina! Don't mind the little arguments..... that's just how it is around here half the time.

The other half of the time the thread is too quiet...
Just sayin'

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I agree that people bait themselves to be hit by Zelda's smash attacks. Just how I see too many people attempt shield grabs half way through Zelda's Fsmash and part of her Usmash or shield through half way of them and let go of the shield to be hit by the rest of her smashes. I just feel Zelda can't spam that well. In lag maybe since I only feel she is more dangerous in lag than without.

I don't think Zelda is that good in lag. Slow start up on her moves long cool down on other it's not cool. At least not for me.

Welcome, Beluina! Don't mind the little arguments..... that's just how it is around here half the time.



True, but some moves are naturally more baitable than others.

It's like this: when a character only has one or two good options in a given situation (very common for Zelda lol), it's easier to bait the move you want because there are less viable choices for the player to make.

If someone is above you or seems to be approaching from the air, you said it yourself:

So lets say I have 2 good options in any given MU. Option A or option B. How does my opponent make me press a button ? If I don't commit to an action it won't happen. However, if I decide to commit to the action and I get baited and then punished. Then that's on me. However, if I decide to use neither option where do we go from there? Back to neutral ?

That mentality is exactly why usmash is easily baited.

But fact is.... if someone still has their double jump or is on the ground, usmash isn't safe at all because it's ridiculously punishable on block or whiff. It's only safe on a guaranteed shield stab or if the opponent has nowhere else to land. Otherwise you're relying on prediction/hope that they're going to run into it.

Fsmash/jab/dtilt on the other hand are relatively okay to use whether you hit, hit shield, or whiff from a reasonable distance, so they're what I would call good spacing moves.

So if I start to factor in my opponent's double jump and predict where they're going to land then that increase my odds of landing usmash. Ya know that sound like solid play Kaylo I think you just improved my Zelda. Also I find it funny that the Zelda player can be baited read punished but God forbid the Zelda actually try to read her opponent.

Once again the move can't be baited I'm not sure how many times I need to say this however, it's really silly to continue that notion. Moves don't get baited players get baited into using lagging moves. So can we please get past it better yet how bout this going into try mode set the CPU to Zelda or control. Then see how many times you bait Zelda's usmash. Just have the CPU stand there or just have it set to control. If you bait Zelda's usmash I'll retract everything I've said. If you don't will you finally admit that it's the player and not the move that get's baited?

You guys seems to neglect the fact that there's a person behind the sticks controlling Zelda and how easily you can be baited into using one her laggy moves. You can just as easily God forbid not take the bait. Eventually we're going to have to stop blaming Zelda tools and cowboy up and actually step our game up. Instead of going *shrugs* LoLoL it's Zelda and my opponent is good oh n0es.

 

[KayLo!]

I mean, Zelda's a bad character. Never said someone can't do relatively well with her, but it's a fact that her lack of options is one of her weaknesses and makes her more of a predictable character. Her effective mixup game is almost nonexistent compared to better characters. No amount of your denial is gonna change that.

If she was decent enough for us to "cowboy up", there would be results to show for it by now. (Not bashing the few players who do good things with her, but there's a reason she's at the bottom of the tier list.)

Feel free to be that guy who proves us all wrong tho.

EDIT: Oh, and @the original debate on usmash as a spacing tool: we'll agree to disagree, whatevs. It's not that serious.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

So I got not lazy and dug up my photo from the Smasheducation thread for the op.

Spoiler

I still refuse to get a haircut. Should probably shave a bit more often.


Also, that tournament stagelist is awful. I hope your region doesn't have very many Ice Climbers. That is a trash starter list.

Then again, this is coming from somewhere where we have a 9 stage starter list.

GTA's awesome stagelist is:

Neutral:
* Final Destination
* Battlefield
* Yoshi's Story
* Smashville
* Lylat
* Pokemon Stadium 1
* Castle Siege
* Delfino
* Halberd

Stages for Counter pick:
* Frigate Orpheon
* Rainbow Cruise
* Brinstar
* Jungle Japes
* Pokémon Stadium 2
* Norfair
* Pictochat

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I mean, Zelda's a bad character. Never said someone can't do relatively well with her, but it's a fact that her lack of options is one of her weaknesses and makes her more of a predictable character. Her effective mixup game is almost nonexistent compared to better characters. No amount of your denial is gonna change that.

If she was decent enough for us to "cowboy up", there would be results to show for it by now. (Not bashing the few players who do good things with her, but there's a reason she's at the bottom of the tier list.)

Feel free to be that guy who proves us all wrong tho.

EDIT: Oh, and @the original debate on usmash as a spacing tool: we'll agree to disagree, whatevs. It's not that serious.

Kaylo I think you should go back and read my post. I don't think you can say that I argued for up smash as a spacing tool. If that's how my post come off then I haven't made my self clear. However, I did bring up her smash attacks and then continued to explain myself. You did tl;dr that post. Have you even gone back to read the post that you tl;dr that I got upset over? If you haven't then I'll just stop.

I'd take Zelda's moves > 80% of the cast. That's not say her moves can't be improved because they can be.

 

[KayLo!]

@AL (collapsed so people don't have to keep seeing all this):

Spoiler

I didn't go back & read it. But if you weren't disagreeing, there's no point for me to read it since my first point still stands lol.

The majority of my last post was @you saying "it's the player getting baited!" over and over. Which is true, but Zelda as a character makes it much harder as a player to be unpredictable. She just doesn't have the tools to be (effectively, anyway, compared to better characters).

I mean you can put all the fault on the player if you want, but the biggest mistake imo is picking Zelda in the first place. Still love her tho and love seeing people do well with her.

@Alan: Strike PS1 and YI/FD (depends on the character.... like vs. Pika or MK, I'd strike FD); ban whatever you're least comfortable on.

 

[MrEh]

How can a move with such much cool down be spammable ?

Dunno, ask Riot.

 

[GodAtHand]

What move are we talking about?

 

[MrEh]

What move are we talking about?

Usmash. But to a lesser extent, Zelda's entire moveset.

KayLo summed it up pretty well already though. lol