Meta Zero's Advice: General Matchup Q&A

[p1ay6ack]

i finally figured out how megaman beats lil mac in up close combat! i usually have to play defeinsive against him, and it annoys me, cuz im aggro. but lil mac is terrible against megaman's slide att (down tilt). why? cuz megaman's slide pops lil mac into the air, and lil mac is very weak at air mobility, you know? and he's free to combo stuff there.

 

[CopShowGuy]

Can you slide under his fsmash?

 

[Blade Knight]

Not possible, nor advisable. If he releases it a proper time he'll armor the hit and you'll get punished instantly. At best you slide past him or knock him out of his charging animation before he swings.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

So... Mewtwo seems to be pretty popular right now... I just think I'll throw my two cents about the early MU.
Mewtwo 's most notable feature in this MU is his weiht and air speed IMO. He is light (dies to rageless Utilt around 85 % I think) and is really floaty, so we can jus Uair all day long while he is above us. Since he is quite tall, lemons are more annoying than anything else for him.
On the other side, Mewtwo has a chargeable Shadow Ball ans a Palutena'ish reflector that actually allow him to get combo setups if he gets close enough, and his regular attacks have quite a good range. (His smashes are still really slow to come out tho)

I believe this MU WITHOUT CUSTOMS is highly in Mega Man's favor as long as we keep our pellet game strong enough. (Megaman should've played Hockey instead of football, seriously)

 

[p1ay6ack]

So... Mewtwo seems to be pretty popular right now... I just think I'll throw my two cents about the early MU.
Mewtwo 's most notable feature in this MU is his weiht and air speed IMO. He is light (dies to rageless Utilt around 85 % I think) and is really floaty, so we can jus Uair all day long while he is above us. Since he is quite tall, lemons are more annoying than anything else for him.
On the other side, Mewtwo has a chargeable Shadow Ball ans a Palutena'ish reflector that actually allow him to get combo setups if he gets close enough, and his regular attacks have quite a good range. (His smashes are still really slow to come out tho)

I believe this MU WITHOUT CUSTOMS is highly in Mega Man's favor as long as we keep our pellet game strong enough. (Megaman should've played Hockey instead of football, seriously)

its too early to say if this mu is in megaman's favor.

 

[Greward]

Shadow ball might be very annoying (outprioritizes our stuff when fully charged or mid charged) but since the charge time is quite high we should be able to deal with it.
Looks like Mewtwo has no customs, so...
M2 can combo easily out of dthrow, dtilt and fair, and he kills kinda early. I really like mewtwo, I think he may be high tier, top15~. We shouldn't discuss M2 matchup now tho.

 

[Neutricity]

Hey guize, I play against a top level Mega Man in my state often with Pac-Man. How do I stop is Mega Shenanigans?

 

[Locke 06]

The more important question is whether our dtilt slide beats Mac's jab, ftilt, or dtilt by sliding under and/or using the disjoint. Challenging mac's fsmash... Are you nuts?

Going to a tournament tomorrow where I will play against a Mac. I'll see how much I can abuse dtilt against him, but I feel like running away is the smarter play.


When the community comes up with patch notes, we'll discuss how they affect matchups we have already discussed. Stay tuned.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Mega man is a scary scary edgeguarder for Mac. Bthrow sets him up perfectly.
As a note, most good macs try going low first (mostly because most bad macs do not). If you guess right, you get the stock.

 

[Sorichuudo]

Mega man is a scary scary edgeguarder for Mac. Bthrow sets him up perfectly.
As a note, most good macs try going low first (mostly because most bad macs do not). If you guess right, you get the stock.

Is dtilt good for when they go low?

Cause at least for me, that's usually what takes the stock if they try to recover that way, given that his up b doesn't sweetspot the ledge.

 

[p1ay6ack]

The more important question is whether our dtilt slide beats Mac's jab, ftilt, or dtilt by sliding under and/or using the disjoint. Challenging mac's fsmash... Are you nuts?

Going to a tournament tomorrow where I will play against a Mac. I'll see how much I can abuse dtilt against him, but I feel like running away is the smarter play.


When the community comes up with patch notes, we'll discuss how they affect matchups we have already discussed. Stay tuned.

i faced a good lil mac on for glory, and he camped me lol. i was throwing out d tilts at him, and popping him off to the air alot in the beginning, but then lil mac started approaching, then shielding, then waiting for me to commit to a move, then punish with their super armor f smashes. it was annoying lol. i guess if lil mac adapts and does this playstyle, maybe go in for grabs and fakeouts?

 

[Locke 06]

i faced a good lil mac on for glory, and he camped me lol. i was throwing out d tilts at him, and popping him off to the air alot in the beginning, but then lil mac started approaching, then shielding, then waiting for me to commit to a move, then punish with their super armor f smashes. it was annoying lol. i guess if lil mac adapts and does this playstyle, maybe go in for grabs and fakeouts?

Mac is a different beast with any sort of lag. His defense really suffers, as he can't challenge your approach as well with his f1 jab or f3/4 f/dtilt, but he's a pain to punish since all of his moves are so quick and safe when spaced.

My advice is to not go in unless something is guaranteed. Mac is just too good in close range and Mega had no boxing game. Dtilt can be used to challenge approaches, but I wouldn't rely on it because it is unsafe AF. Like... Would you be dtilt happy against Mega Man who can utilt you on block?

 

[ChopperDave]

Uair is pretty good against Little Mac in my experience. Because his ftilt and fsmash nudge him forward, and (I think) uair doesn't care about super armor due to the windbox, a retreating landing uair can be pretty handy and safe way to threaten Mac's spacing game. It's also nice for punishing his constant rolls.

 

[p1ay6ack]

Mac is a different beast with any sort of lag. His defense really suffers, as he can't challenge your approach as well with his f1 jab or f3/4 f/dtilt, but he's a pain to punish since all of his moves are so quick and safe when spaced.

My advice is to not go in unless something is guaranteed. Mac is just too good in close range and Mega had no boxing game. Dtilt can be used to challenge approaches, but I wouldn't rely on it because it is unsafe AF. Like... Would you be dtilt happy against Mega Man who can utilt you on block?

this just goes to show how much thinking you got to do with megaman. good luck in tourny.

btw, i was looking at smash4reddit and i found a braindead simple tech to do perfect pivoting. it's so easy, it's like spamming a smash attack to perfect pivot. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2b8-GyspozDUXlaZm5RUm1YNXM/view there's the video on how to do it on gamecube controller, and it works on megaman, and possibly the rest of the cast, but it just feels so awkward

btw, you dont have to dash to perfect pivot. you can just walk normally, and perfect pivot.

ALSO, MEGAMAN CAN MOONWALK WITH THIS

 

[ForteX]

All I'm getting when I do that is turning around on the spot to do a fsmash, nothing like a perfect pivot. There needs to be some actual gameplay in this video, or some other explanation about what to set the second stick to.

 

[p1ay6ack]

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/32rxnu/easy_pivoting_discovery/ here's the original post about the perfect pivot a+b. the comments give insight on how to perform

 

[Locke 06]

Okay. It seems like most of the patch changes have been found and confirmed. The impact of things like Sheik's BAir "nerf" might allow it to string into things better, so we'll hold off on attempting to deal with characters that have been changed. However, I think it will be worth going over how the MU's we've discussed have changed due to the patch, that way we don't have to revisit them later.

When that happens, I will hopefully have updated the OP with more summaries with ratings that I've given myself on how good the summaries are. If it's 3 or below, that means I'm dissatisfied with the quality of the summary is and will edit it later. If you anyone wants to help improve the quality of those summaries, pick one (or more) and PM me. I'll guide you and stuff.

Thanks for the input on how the thread is going. I'm glad people get some stuff out of it, and I apologize for how poor of a job I'm doing on the OP. I really do want to work on it and have dedicated most of the weekend to do just that.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Switching topics to DK. And it will stay for as long as it takes until this MU is understood.

Someone else do research for me/notify the DK boards. I'm tired.

 

[CopShowGuy]

I made a post in their Matchup topic.

Mega Man loves big characters. DK is no exception. He has an edge over us somewhat because his tilt range is about the same as lemon range. Also his cargo carry > up-throw leads to uair pretty easily when tossing Mega Man. But we can heckle him pretty bad with our ranged shenanigans.

Some matches. Both old though:

 

[ForteX]

Anecdotal: Reasonably skilled friend tried out DK for a day and went 2:1 average vs my MegaMan (my favor). I wouldn't say the successes he enjoyed was lack of matchup knowledge on my part, but I would say anything he suffered from was lack of matchup knowledge on his.

General observations/opinions are pretty much the same from me as from CopShowGuy. DK is a hulking big target to hit with basically everything, but like a lot of heavy characters, I find it hard to actually close out a stock on him, which is actually troublesome with him since he has good options for getting in and securing kills on MegaMan. I've caught hell from his bairs, which I think I've heard come out with less end lag now? If that's the case, I expect more hell in the future.

The matchup is made easier because of his size - putting a disruptive Metal Blade in there doesn't require the finesse it takes on smaller characters, so going in for grabs or the rare utilt is made just that much easier. I enjoy this matchup quite a bit, and this reminds me that it's been a while since I've played a DK of any particular note, so until I change that, these really broad things are all I'm qualified to say on the matter.

 

[p1ay6ack]

btw, DK is very vulnerable to danger wrap. if you find an air bender kong, trying to recover on platforms, and its recovery trajectory is predictable, you can dangerwrap him through the cyclone. this is like 70-80% that danger wrap hits through his DK air bender up b. the times danger wrap doesn't hit is when the up b is in the beginning frames, but towards the middle to end, you get your window of opportunity.

 

[CopShowGuy]

I suppose I could post some of my old vs replays too.

 

[Blade Knight]

In my experience DK's total combo fodder and he's definitely a matchup where we can theoretically avoid most damage if played well enough. Even with his improvements this patch he still struggles a lot vs Metal Blade, Danger Wrap, Lemons, and Up Air. Back Air's disjoint is farly safe vs a recovering DK and if one is for some reason trying to recover low that's about as free of a spike as we can get. Leaf shield is good too if he initiates his recovery from a long distance out.

He can juggle us a lot off a grab, but lemons and downward metal blades can help get us out of situations like that. We should be careful not to fall into his close range normal cyclone with dtilt, jab, ftilt, and throws. We really need to exercise good judgement in teching, rolling, and spacing vs DK, as he can rack up a lot of damage quickly given a chance and kill early.

The big thing I wonder about in this matchup is who benefits more from platforms? DK can poke through them easily with his deadly up tilt and SH nair and gets a much improved combo/mixup game, but we get more mobility with which to keep him out. What do you guys think on it?

 

[Fenrir VII]

DK has among the worst problems getting down through uair of anybody in the game. Even retreating offstage isn't all that positive of a position for him.

Matchup wise, this is similar to the Bowser matchup, but without DK having the standing armor, so everything just...works. I think this one is solidly in our camp.

 

[Locke 06]

DK has among the worst problems getting down through uair of anybody in the game. Even retreating offstage isn't all that positive of a position for him.

Matchup wise, this is similar to the Bowser matchup, but without DK having the standing armor, so everything just...works. I think this one is solidly in our camp.

If by among the worst at getting down through uair, you mean not really that bad. He has Mario like airspeed and just drifts away. He has a large problem getting off the ledge, but you shouldn't really be able to uair him too much.

And by similar to the Bowser matchup, you mean they're big targets. Bowser and DK are pretty different and DK thrives off of one of the things Mega Man is weak to - vertical juggling. Bowser does not have DK's utilt or uair, or cargo uthrow>uair.

We'll have to play the MU more. I remember us going even-ish last time.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Look at you getting feisty.

The problem with uair is that DK is huge. Regardless of horizontal air movement, his fallspeed isn't all that fast, and his size makes it so that a) we don't have to guess as much to cover his space and b) even on airdodge, if he is slightly early, the uair will still hit him. Of course he can retreat offstage, but that's a fairly large negative position for him as you said.. I don't think he's the worst at dealing with uair, but 'among the worst' as in top 10 or so seems inarguable to me.

DK and Bowser are fairly similar in that they both play similar strategies,have some speed in attacks and movement, but suffer lag on a number of attacks. They're also both huge. They're obviously not identical, but playing against them is similar. Bowser may not be as good of a juggler, but he's arguably better at punishing landings, so it's just 2 shades imo.
I also disagree with the mindset that mega does all that much worse against juggles than the rest of the cast, given our tools and mobility. Our weight makes us susceptible to low percent combos, but I don't think that extends to a large degree to all juggle conditions

 

[Locuan]

I'm back, this time though we are discussing the match-up on the Marth Match-Up Thread. It'd be great if you could help us out!
http://smashboards.com/threads/marth-match-up-discussion-update-mega-man.383174/

 

[Big O]

I'd say the DK Megaman MU is evenish (maybe a slight advantage for Megaman).

As annoying as Metal Blade can get, in a low/no lag environment you can just dash attack to catch it or super armor though it with Up B and trade. Blocking it lets you pick it up and prevents him from being able to use it as long as you hold it.

As annoying as lemons can be, the fact that they only do 2% and oftentimes don't combo into each other means they don't really do much. They are the epitome of low risk low reward gameplay and as long as you don't get frustrated, they shouldn't really be that big a deal. A successful trade with Down B/Up B or a sneaky aerial only needs to happen like once every seven times you get shot for it to go even.

Crash Bomber is pretty bad once you know what it does. The fact that you can transfer it over to him just by contact means you aren't necessarily forced to block or dodge when it explodes to avoid it. Even if you can't get close to him, all you need to do is air dodge or roll and you get a free hitbox while being invincible.

Megaman's Uair is never really an issue to avoid with how lenient the timing is to air dodge through it. Even if for some reason you can't air dodge through it, you can just drift away to avoid like 90% of any Uair juggle situations. The only time Uair is scary is when Megaman SHFF Uairs at close range.

The most annoying thing about Megaman to me is probably how fraudulent his grab range/speed is. That combined with being combo food in general is a pretty easy way to exploit DK's biggest weakness.

Megaman's spaced aerials and his ability to KO absurdly early with Utilt/Dsmash are what I'm afraid of going into the MU. Every time DK whiffs a move that isn't like Jab or Dtilt, I fear the Shoryuken punish. Spaced Fair, Bair, and even Dair are surprisingly safe and their disjointed nature makes them hard to trade favorably with.

Fsmash is also pretty scary sometimes. When I'm on the ledge or when I am landing, charged Fsmash always seems to catch me by surprise. I am always caught off guard at how big it is, how fast it goes, and how far it reaches all the time. Random uncharged Fsmash is pretty decent in footsies too.

Most of my KO's against Megaman come from edgeguarding and juggle traps. He only has a slow Dair to protect himself from below and an Up B that just delays the next juggle attempt by a couple seconds. Since his Up B has no hitbox, I get a lot of mileage from stage spikes and just intercepting it in general. On stages that don't let him wall jump, you can hit him too far for his Up B to recover from.

As long as DK exercises patience, the MU against Megaman isn't really bad at all. It's usually a slower paced MU, but DK can win in a battle of attrition.

 

[CopShowGuy]

You seem to be underestimating a few things though.
Holding onto his Metal Blade does prevent him from using more. Unfortunately, it prevents you from grabbing or attacking (outside of specials). The trade off is greatly in Mega Man's favor if you decide to hold onto a blade in hopes of depriving him of a ranged tool.

Lemons are low risk and low reward. And it is key to not get frustrated. And it is true that one good attack per every few salvos of shots keeps things even. But that's just how Mega Man keeps the pace of the match in his favor most of the time. It also stuffs out a LOT of approaches. The reward is a little higher than low.

Crash Bomb is pretty easy to avoid the damage on, but it forces the person who is stuck with it to:
A. Shield.
B. Dodge.
C. Charge Mega Man in hopes of passing it off.
(D. Take damage)
All 3 can be pretty easily punished with decent reading.

Leaf Shield is a great way to get back to the stage as he can dodge and still hit you. It's probably his best anti-juggle/anti-rushdown move.

That said, Mega Man sounds a lot better on paper than he actually is sometimes. That's why he isn't toppest of the tiers yet. You have to patient to fight him.

 

[MegaBlaster1234]

I can speak from experience using both characters that Mega Man can maintain the lead and punish everything DK does, albeit not as hard as characters like Falcon.
Comboing DK is very easy, and the DK player has to approach you, giving the MegaMan player a reason to run away and pester DK until kill percents. Metal Blade hits DK three times because of his huge body, and diagonal MB to Mega Upper works to great effect against DK since you'll almost always get the sweetspot, and the DK can't Nair or air dodge in time. Offstage, Z-dropping MB and threatening with Hard Knuckle is completely safe and will scare DK into recovering earlier.


However, a good DK won't just sit there and take it. DK is much faster than MegaMan, and trades are always in his favor. MegaMan gets juggled and comboed just as hard as DK does in this matchup and after some good strings, reads and punishes, the MegaMan player will be forced to attack and DK has the range and priority to beat most of MegaMan's moves.

The player with the most patience will come out on top in this matchup, but MegaMan has an edge in neutral since he can rack up damage free of harm and make it hard to land safely.

 

[Locke 06]

So, couple days with no discussion. Has anyone played against windy Kong and have tips how to play against it? The way I see it, is it basically forces you to not commit to anything so that you can be ready to shield/air dodge... But that allows DK to get into tilt range where he can do DK stuff. I have very little experience with it (refuse to use it as a DK secondary) and I've only played against it a couple of times and it was bad.

 

[MegaBlaster1234]

So, couple days with no discussion. Has anyone played against windy Kong and have tips how to play against it? The way I see it, is it basically forces you to not commit to anything so that you can be ready to shield/air dodge... But that allows DK to get into tilt range where he can do DK stuff. I have very little experience with it (refuse to use it as a DK secondary) and I've only played against it a couple of times and it was bad.

It makes it ridiculously easy for DK to reset the neutral, and the enormous windbox is way too unpredictable sometimes. The only reason the move is so effective is because of the aerial version having windboxes that cause hitstun and effectively disrupt the floe of the match. Even if you don't plan on using it on custom DK, you should at least familiarize yourself with that playstyle and find ways to see through gimmicks.

Never hold down while air dodging or else the windbox will drag you all the way down. The same applies to any direction you hold once you get caught in the air. With good timing you can dodge in between the two hits if the first hit didn't land and you just got caught in the windbox.
The best course of action is to not challenge it. The humongous windbox will ruin you if you don't play carefully. Staying in shield until it's over is the best move since even if he autocancels Kong Cyclone he still remains a big target that can be easily zoned out.

 

[Locke 06]

I understand the move/have familiarized myself with it, which is why I think it is dumb as a "you did something? Up-B. I win the trade."

It works as a zone breaker as well in that respect. The way I usually play around it with other characters is to rush and pressure him always so he doesn't have time to use an f15 aerial, but Mega doesn't really have that capability against DK's normals. Or at least in my experience he doesn't.

 

[MegaBlaster1234]

I understand the move/have familiarized myself with it, which is why I think it is dumb as a "you did something? Up-B. I win the trade."

It works as a zone breaker as well in that respect. The way I usually play around it with other characters is to rush and pressure him always so he doesn't have time to use an f15 aerial, but Mega doesn't really have that capability against DK's normals. Or at least in my experience he doesn't.

That's what happens when Nintendo decides to give an armored move the ability to disrupt and beat mostly everything thrown at it.

And yeah, MegaMan can't very well punish and stay safe as often as he'd like against Kong Cyclone, so ultimately it boils down to catching on to habits the other player has. The move just can't be challenged. It's great for DK and DK players, but I can see how it would make anyone feel it's unfair.

The way I play against Windy Kong keep him above me at all times and to pester him offstage with angled MB and Charge shot. He can't recover that low so the threat of being spiked or Side Smashed is very real. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is a point during Kong Cyclone where it doesn't have super armor right? I don't know the exact frames, but sometimes I've played as DK and have been able to eat a Wizard's Foot and power through it, while other times something as weak as a hit from Leaf Shield has hit me.

 

[Kirby Phelps (PK)]

Has anyone discussed the match-up of Mega Man vs Falco?? I feel like he's at a severe disadvantage considering Falco's reflector. Not only does it reflect all of Mega Man's projectiles, but it also knocks him back whenever he tries to get close. It really limits Mega Man's options.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

His reflector does shut us down pretty well. It seems if we get in pellet range his reflector will stop us from pelleting him as well as knock us back.

 

[p1ay6ack]

i found what works good against windy dk is pester him, and get him in the air, then force him to up b into a platform, and throw a danger wrap under him. it'll bounce him back in the air, and if he up b's to another platform, predict his recovery and danger wrap him from below again. this works well in battlefield

 

[Fenrir VII]

I only have experience against one Windy DK on the ladder, and he used it non-stop. In that scenario, it was fairly easy to bait and punish with much of anything.

The Wind UpB is just a trading nightmare, that beats practically every other move. It is still punishable on bait/shield/etc but it negatively affects the matchup for us. in a non-custom environment, I think we win the matchup. In custom, I'm really not sure.

 

[Blue24]

has pit been talked about?

 

[Diamond Octobot]

I think people talked a bit about him on the General MU Thread.
I don't know how far it sunk in the boards through...

 

[Locke 06]

If anyone's wondering why the MU thread has gone stagnant, it's because a new thread is gonna be put up so that I can edit the OP without breaking Smashboards.

Unless someone wants to play facilitator in my place, a new thread will get put up when I feel like it.