Meta Zero's Advice: General Matchup Q&A

[ChopperDave]

Yeah, but you can't have it up all the time nor can you keep it up often enough to keep him away. It is only useful if you get enough space to activate it and then for the few seconds you have it up.

Well yeah, duh. The point I'm making is that it's a good tool to use in the neutral against Wario because it (a) stops most of his approaches (b) gives you opportunity to break through Wario's defenses without doing anything too terribly risky. His normal defenses against running shield grab (short hop punish, spot dodge, Bite) won't work when you have Leaf Shield up.

It's not all that hard to get up a LS even under pressure. Just jump back and activate, or fake out by jumping at him and b-reversing back. You give up some stage control, sure, but you can gain it right back once LS is up. Like I said, the main thing you have to worry about is Wario hitting you out of the LS activation frames, and lacking a projectile, his Bike is the only way he can really do that on reaction. As long as you maintain your space and don't get too predictable you'll be fine.

 

[Greward]

Chomp > LS

Leaf shield ain't very good in this matchup actually, he won't use the bike if you got a leaf shield up lol
And he has the mobility to just keep away from us. Fair / Bair should outrange leaf shield, same with ftilt and maybe jab. Anyways using leaf shield is a very safe way for Wario to go for the Chomp.

 

[ChopperDave]

Chomp > LS

Leaf shield ain't very good in this matchup actually, he won't use the bike if you got a leaf shield up lol
And he has the mobility to just keep away from us. Fair / Bair should outrange leaf shield, same with ftilt and maybe jab. Anyways using leaf shield is a very safe way for Wario to go for the Chomp.

Does it? Huh. I play a Wario semi-regularly and have knocked him out of Chomp with LS when he tried to approach with it, and even when I ran into his open mouth. But now that I think of it, he's managed to Chomp me out of it occasionally when the leaves didn't hit him on time. I guess it's unreliable.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

Relevant :

That's not me, but the guys are pretty good players.
All hail the Youtube recommend

 

[Fenrir VII]

That's a good match. Nice intense air spacing.

I kind of wish I saw the Mega use more diagonal down blades, because I have a feeling that they're pretty good in the matchup. I also wish he had gone for more grabs, as the Wario was just abusing shield, and Mega actually gets pretty good reward out of dthrow > bair or dthrow > usmash/uair on Wario. Overall though, that was entertaining.

 

[Blade Knight]

He may have been scared to go in for grabs vs wario's shield because short hop chomps beat out grab attempts.

 

[CopShowGuy]

There's also this one.

 

[Locke 06]

So, discussion has kind of stalled. If someone wants to do a full video analysis of the videos provided, I think that might be super helpful to the discussion. Otherwise, unfortunately, it seems like we've covered everything the collective Mega Man boards know about the matchup (which is not much).

Tomorrow will be the last day of Wario, and then we'll switch to... umm... Link. Yeah. Let's do Link.

 

[Blade Knight]

If I may start the discussion of the Link vs Mega Man matchup here's my take on it.

Link's Hylian Shield is an utter annoyance as it completely disrespects Jab/Ftilt/Nair, Forward Smash, and Crash Bomber. Additionally it oddly blocks Hard Knuckle when Link is standing still in spite of that hitting from above, which removes that as a mixup option while approaching from the air or platforms. It importantly does not block Metal Blades however, meaning we're free to continue using those either as thrown weapons or for aerial approaches. This matchup will have a heavy emphasis on your metal blading abilities, as it shuts Link down close up and prevents his ability to spam at a range. Don't respect the Hylian Shield too much and don't let it get in your head, you'll do better for it if you just consider it a relative non factor, just don't ever charge a forward smash on Link.

Lemons are still important in this matchup as they defeat boomerang and bombs with ease, while the crash bomber can still see some use by blocking charged arrows. All in all, our projectile game is stronger, though on offense is limited by the Hylian shield's defensive properties.

Tacking on percent early isn't too hard either, well spaced Flame Swords, Metal Blades, and Down Throw combos easily get his percent up to comboing range. Once there Link is absolute combo fodder for Mega Man, and when placed into the air has a hell of a time getting back down. Down air is his best reversal in this situation and if we bait it out it's very easy to punish with a Mega Upper. At a range, Up air can also beat it out. Our Back air and Fair activate faster than his Fair and Bair out ranges him. His Back Air is not good for getting back to the ground and is again, beat out by our air options. Sometimes Links will fastfall nair or airdodge to get to the ground, this is bested easily by metal blades and Air Shooter. Getting him into the air isn't an issue as grabs are easy to get in this matchup and Up Smash can scoop up Link's relatively wide hitbox pretty well.

He's a much bigger threat comparatively on the ground, because forward smash, Up Tilt, Forward Tilt, and short hoped Bairs, Fairs, and Nairs can cause problems for Mega Man but his combo game is limited against Mega Man overall. Just watch out for the second hit of his Fsmash and if possible punish with a charge shot. As I mentioned before, Metal Blades are heavily emphasized in this matchup on the ground since Link's kit is poorly designed for dealing with it, especially if you wait for Link to idlely throw out a boomerang. A lot of your time on the ground will be spent baiting out and punishing his choices, since most of Link's good options have decent lag (smashes, ftilt) or vulnerability (up tilt) to them.

On his recovery don't try for Leaf Shield->Footstool, as Link is plenty vulnerable to Hard Knuckle already while recovering thanks to his fairly slow and linear recovery. Leaf Shield->Footstool attempts in my experience tend to put Mega Man in a bad situation or even cause a death because you just barely get nicked and then can't Up B to recover. If he's recovering high just smack him with a Slash Claw for free damage and likely a kill. While recovering yourself be wary of any Links brave enough to go for a Down Air spike on you, but in general Links don't go for edge guarding beyond arrows or bombs. This makes recovering low and ideal option in most cases, as you can slide up the sides of many stages and even wall jump to safety if need be.

I've got a lot of experience in this matchup, three of my friends play Link and one plays Toon Link as well. Generally I find this a favorable matchup, though one where you can die much sooner than anticipated thanks to Link's very high killing power on Fsmash, Up Smash, and Fair. Both platformed and flat stages are in Mega Man's favor, though I would recommend bringing Link to stages with platforms whenever possible. Lylat Cruise is unfavorable because the platforms are too low, though I've had good success on Battlefield, Halberd, and Town and City. This is a Matchup I'd rate 6:4 in Mega Man's favor.

 

[meleebrawler]

Watch out for Link's jab.

 

[Locke 06]

Yup. Wario matchup is over. Unfortunately, we didn't really cover much, so we'll probably have to revisit it another time. Glad we got some videos though. Those should be helpful and will go into those summaries that will someday get written.

-----------------------------------

C-G... C-C-D-E-F-G!

Back to Hyrule, it's time.

Although Blade Knight already jumped ahead and started, here are some other posts from our the general MU thread. Couldn't find too much on the Link boards, although admittedly I didn't spend a ton of time looking.

Mega Man beats Link. Pellets nullify arrows and boomerangs, and bombs should not give you trouble since they are slow and shieldable/catchable. We have a field day gimping Link, and the only thing he can really use to cover himself is boomerang, which a nair will take care of anyways. Nair gimps, with out without sweetspot. Bair stage spike covers low recovery, Leaf Shield works for stages without walls. Dair if he can't sweetspot ledge.

On stage, his Hylian Shield only ever works if he is idle. Don't worry about it. If Link approaches with short hop aerials, well spaced FSmashes stuff it, as well as perfect shield -> grab. Link is super susceptible to dthrow chains, just look out for nair. Always equip yourself with a Metal Blade and short hop throw it. If it hits, it leads to grab. When in doubt, a thrown Leaf Shield goes through all projectiles.

So far, I've narrowed the banes from my existance down to:

Projectiles, rival my own.
Shield is a deal breaker.
Clawshot outranges my grab.
Master Sword makes approaches much more dangerous due to size and power.

Right off the bat, I'm throwing long ranged attacks out the window, where Link just stands still to deal with them.

Middle-Long range, now it gets tricky. Link will spam arrows, and boomerangs to get me closer. His projectiles are MUCH faster, and much more annoying than mine. The Gale Boomerang disrupts my attempts to throw down a MB and regrab it in mid-air, and will even pull me closer to him which is all kinds of bad.

Middle-Short range, here's where I SHOULD technically shine more. But it's not as simple. My tactic of Proto-Shooting in and out doesn't quite do the trick. Maybe Link is MUCH safer in this area when I play Online due to lag, but he seems to land that Master Sword way more than my pellets manage to rack up damage (and let's not forget the blasted shield). Oh, in this range, Link now has bomb for me to deal with, as well as a boomerang that fluidly transcends into a powerful dash attack.

Short range, all that's left for me is dash attacks, grab attempts, slides, and smash attacks.
Dash Attacks: If he shields, I'm eating a dsmash or a grab for sure.
It's virtually impossible for me to grab Link, when I have to go through a barrage of projectiles, a clawshot, and a Master Sword.
Slide is pretty much the same scenario as a Dash Attack.
Smash Attack: --Forward gets shielded and punished.
--Down, I don't even attempt it anymore, if I miss it, I might lose a whole stock.
--Up, I haven't been using it much but I'm sure the trade off is: Heavy master sword damage, super low damage of the first spark hitbox.

The only reliable and safe move for me, is Uair when Link is high up.
I wouldn't even DREAM of winning an aerial clash. Link's Fair and Nair wins everytime.

And the yet unmentioned Leaf Shield? Nobody fears them. Especially not Link with his auto-shield. I could attempt a Leaf-Shield grab, but when they see me coming at them with a Leaf Shield, BAM Ftilt, jab combo, or Fsmash.


I feel like I'm playing really wrong here. Next time I will attempt to record a match vs Link (I'm usually too frustrated after the fight to care to save the replay) and have you guys analyze it.
Is it really such a tough match up?

I don't find a tough match up at all. As far as spammy long range characters go, I find way more of a pain in the ***, due to her ability to charge up, store, and fire a nasty projectile that eats through all of my projectiles.

Here's some advice for , in no particular order:

1) Learn to dash shield, power shield, and perfect shield. This is really the easiest way to get in on Link because his bow and boomerang both have some nicely punishable endlag. When he tries to send a boomerang at you -- and almost all Links seem to do this when you dash at them -- powershield it. If you successfully perfect shield, you'll be able to immediately hit him with pellets, dash attack, or sometimes even fsmash before he can respond.

2) Mindgames are your friend in this matchup because so many of Link's attacks are laggy and easily punished. Try dashing up to a jab or fsmash or boomerang, and roll or perfect pivot back, or powershield. If he takes the bait, you can punish him with pellets, fsmash, utilt, or whatever else fits the situation.

3) If he's charging his bow and you're at midrange, full hop and send a diagonally-thrown Metal Blade his way. This forces him to react. If he's too slow and eats the Metal Blade, you can follow up with a utilt or a dash attack or a grab. If he shields or spot dodges, free grab.

4) You have three attacks that beats all of aerials for range: nair, uair, and dair. Use them.

5) You don't HAVE to approach him. You can always just sit at the opposite end of the stage and powershield his arrows. If you have the patience for it, you can simply bounce up and down on Rush at the opposite end of the stage and Link can't touch you. If you've got a spammy Link on your hands and you get a stock up, make him approach!

6) You're using Leaf Shield wrong. First, try throwing it once in a while -- you need to mix up your uses of it to keep your opponents guessing. Second, don't just dash in and grab. Instead, dash in, slide into him while shielding, see what he does, then react. If he tries ftilt or fsmash, absorb the hit or wait for a leaf to hit him, the grab him afterwards. If he tries to grab you, spot dodge and punish. And if he jabs, you can just sit in shield while your leaves do passive damage to him and interrupt his jab combo. I find that a lot of times players tend to get frustrated when I do this, and just mash the jab button in a futile attempt to hit me. That's when I roll behind them, watch as they lock themselves into a jab combo with their button mashing, and wallop them with a Mega Upper just as my Leaf Shield wears off

Fought a friend online with a really good Link today.

Bombs eat pellets but trades with MB, ocasional leafshield will also go trhough bombs. Thing is, he can pull out bombs really fast so it can get annoying.

I am not with the few people who believe "hylian shield baby i can block EVERYTHING" but it can save his hide sometimes.

As usual, his killing moves are easier to hit than ours, sure we can shield and punish but is the same as always: he misses, either we punish perfectly or he doesn't dies(also a good link will not just throw out his dash attack if it isn't safe for him); we miss, eat a quick fsmash or whatever and that's a stock.

Good thing is, it seems we can keep him away really well, and his bombs can screw him over too if he goes yolo with them.

I will say that my edgeguarding game SUCKS is not the best, but he still seems easy to edgeguard. Fsmash, stick a CB on him, z-drop a MB, throw a MB, run off and bair etc.

Not trying to call what a MU is after figthing one good Link, i just think that it seems evenish for me.

Anyway, i look forward to playing against him more, but anyone here with experience in this MU ?

 

[ChopperDave]

I just want to note that my advice quoted above was almost purely for bad, projectile spamming Links on For Glory. A lot of that doesn't apply to Links who aren't incredibly predictable. I really need to play more Links who are actually good at the game.

I think this is generally a pretty good matchup for us, though. Lemons and powershielding make Link's projectiles a lot less threatening, and our disjoints generally outrange his. Skull Barrier makes him even less of a threat when customs are an option. You definitely have to be careful approaching Link, though, as he has some pretty solid defensive capabilities with his jab (which seems to hit behind him?) and his Usmash OoS. Also don't take the bait if he gets roll spammy--if you try to roll with him he can nail you with his dsmash, which has a very low knockback angle (bad for us). I like to try to bait and jump over his grab, as if he misses that it's an easy utilt punish.

 

[CopShowGuy]

His natural shield is a non-issue. Sometimes it will allow him to block the 2nd or 3rd pellet in Mega Man's jab if he decides to just stand still when hit by the first and/or second. The thing doesn't reflect so don't be afraid to use Charge Shots if you think you have an opening.

His biggest projectile threat to us is Bombs. That's only because we can cancel out his other 2 (barring charged arrows) with lemons. Plus Blade Knight said that Crash Bombs cancel out fully charged arrows. Bombs can be caught and dodged pretty easily but it does force a reaction from us.

Link still has his nice jab lock combos but I think that and bombs are all he has above Mega Man. That and Link can kill easier. But who can't?

This one is in Mega Man's favor for sure.

 

[Rush 2112]

I find that spot dodges when in close range are usually a bad idea. You'll often end up eating at least one hit of his jab combo and the second hit of his Fsmash can land too.

If an arrow is charged a certain amount it will miss your standing lemon, so jumping just before firing can work. (I think? If memory serves me)

I've been uploading like crazy lately, here's a Link match I have up so far. I know I have replays of better Link's saved, I'll get some of those uploaded tonight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XAusK4qHXY
I try that Dthrow combo on everybody but it works great on Link. I would say that the best way to kill is a Dair off the side. If he's recovering high, a hit with a metal blade will drop him down a bit. That tends to makes ppl panic and they go for an upB right away. Leaving them wide open for the spike. (When recovering, don't fall to the ledge and do nothing like I did here xD)

I'm a risk taker, so I sometimes try and ride the tornado of the boomerang to quickly close in on Link and land a hit. Very risky, as most good Link's think your getting trapped and will have an attack ready, but so worth it if you connect. There are safer ways to make use of that pull, like jumping as soon as it starts pulling you. You might sail over his whiffed attack and punish.

Edit: Got a few more upoaded now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOYIKvxwNHs
Right off the bat his bomb eats my CB and continues on to hit me. So there's that. Applying lots of pressure and cancelling out his projectiles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvUcee9YHd0
Grabbing much less effective this time around. Things were ok when I was applying pressure. Have to be careful of floating around above his head. I really gotta do more diagonal down blades.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

Little useful note : Mega Man's crouch is low enough to dodge a fully charged arrow. Could someone test this on Link's other attacks ? ( My lab is locked on a 1-player-only 3DS )

 

[Blade Knight]

That is very interesting and could be a good thing to keep in mind. Sadly though, you can't crouch under any of his sword's attacks thanks to it's particularly wide hitbox. Boomerang's range vertically is particularly wide so crouching would be an inefficient option even at point blank. His bombs if thrown from far enough away or the air it's possible to crouch under but there's always the chance the explosion hits you anyway.

I think it could be a funny option to crouch underneath a Zair from him and if he lands close enough come up with an up tilt or another punish. That's about the only other situation I can think of where it'd be useful to go for an empty crouch.

 

[Zelkam]

So I'm not usually very good at matchup advice, but I've seen a few misconceptions floating around so far so I figured I would set those straight. Oh, and all of this assumes you're playing a good Link, not a FG scrub.

1) Hylian shield
Honestly I don't think you have to worry too much about this one. Most Link players won't be looking to block things with the HS too often. It only blocks from the front and only blocks Link's mid-section. It can block hard knuckle, but only if it hits towards the front of Link. If you aim it to hit Link on his head or back then it won't get blocked. Also, it should be noted that the HS blocks while Link is standing and walking. He doesn't have an idle animation where he drops the shield anymore as well so it certainly is better than it was in brawl, but I don't think it's a game changer.

2) Bombs
Bombs are easily our best tool and your worst enemy. Here's an excerpt from my bomb priority list concerning megaman:

• Metal Blade: Both Win
• Crash Bomber: Bomb Wins
• Leaf Shield: Both Win (The bomb will destroy any leaf it touches, but I don't think it's possible for it to hit all four)
• Lemons: Bomb Wins
• Charge Shot: Cancels regardless of charge
• Hard Knuckle: Both Win

Our bombs will push through or cancel every projectile you have. Not to mention that we have several bombs AT's such as Z drops, jump canceled toss, bombslide, bomb smash, bomb Ftilt, and our latest and greatest AT: bomb soft throws. That last AT coupled with Zdrops means that we're capable of placing bombs all over the stage which can limit approach options and still stop projectiles.

3) Recovery
The Brawl stigma is real. Many people still believe that Link's recovery is Little Mac tier. Granted, we don't have the best recovery in the game, but we've seen much improvement since brawl. Our double jump and spin attack go roughly 25% higher, our air speed is slightly faster, and our tether is twice as long. That last one is key, the difference between a good Link and and bad Link is how often they mix up their recovery with tether. A good Link will also save their double jump instead of using it immediately out of hitstun which can lead to some excellent mix ups. We have several ways of stopping a gimp attempt as well. I believe boomerang was already mentioned, but we also have bombs (many Link's will pull a bomb immediately after getting hit off stage as the explosion can aid our recovery), and Fair. If there was one good thing that came from our lack of recovery options in brawl, its that we learned to work around it. Heck, we had an entire guide dedicated to recovery. Bad Links get gimped, good Links don't.

4) Gimping
We actually have several good gimping options. Unfortunately, many new Links are too afraid to go offstage to attempt them. Megaman's recovery is highly susceptible to stage spikes. A simple run off stage to Bair will send you back into the abyss. Of course, Dair spikes are an excellent tool as well and you should look out for them. Our Dtilt is capable if spiking as well, although you probably wont see that much as it's incredibly hard to pull off. Of course, all of our projectiles can be used to edge guard. We even have a fancy little tech with the rang call 'gale guarding' that uses the wind effect to keep you away from the stage.

I've had good success on Battlefield, Halberd, and Town and City.

Those are our best stages as well, so I would be wary about taking a Link there.

bombs should not give you trouble since they are slow and shieldable/catchable.

The same can be said for the sawblade. I can't tell you the number of times I've surprised a megaman by catching his sawblade with a dash attack and punished him with said dash attack.

Watch out for Link's jab.

This is definitely true, our jab is pretty great. Jab 1 combos into itself with jab cancels and can even true combo into Dsmash or Utilt at high percents.

I find that spot dodges when in close range are usually a bad idea. You'll often end up eating at least one hit of his jab combo and the second hit of his Fsmash can land too.

This is also very true. Fsmash and Usmash are both multi hit moves that can easily punish spot dodges. Also, our jab combo can be delayed quite a bit which is excellent for punishing spot dodges.


Alright I think that's enough wall of text for one day. Hopefully that helps at least somewhat. And for the record, I think I probably agree with the matchup being 55-45 to 60-40 in MM's favor.

 

[Blade Knight]

@ Zelkam
If those stages are good for Link, how's Gamer as a counterpick? :y

Though seriously, what stages do you feel lean one way or another in this matchup? I could see Skyloft and Wuhu Island being good for Mega Man, since he adapts very well to transitions, though I imagine that wouldn't be much of an issue for Link either.

I'm still not entirely sure I agree on Link's recovery being as safe as you say it is though I won't deny how improved it is compared to Brawl. While I agree that Battlefield and Town and City can lead to nasty stage spikes on Mega Man, it's true for both sides in this matchup, Mega Man's back air is nothing to trifle with. Link's recovery is still plenty gimpable regardless of if he goes for the tether or not, but in either case it's more on the Mega Man's part to properly react and gimp than anything.

 

[Zelkam]

@ Zelkam
If those stages are good for Link, how's Gamer as a counterpick? :y

Though seriously, what stages do you feel lean one way or another in this matchup? I could see Skyloft and Wuhu Island being good for Mega Man, since he adapts very well to transitions, though I imagine that wouldn't be much of an issue for Link either.

I'm still not entirely sure I agree on Link's recovery being as safe as you say it is though I won't deny how improved it is compared to Brawl. While I agree that Battlefield and Town and City can lead to nasty stage spikes on Mega Man, it's true for both sides in this matchup, Mega Man's back air is nothing to trifle with. Link's recovery is still plenty gimpable regardless of if he goes for the tether or not, but in either case it's more on the Mega Man's part to properly react and gimp than anything.

Keep in mind that I don't really know what stages are best for megaman, I'm just going off of what I know about Link. FD would probably be your best bet. Link tends to do poorly on FD against characters who can out spam him. Link really shines on stages with platforms such as battlefield, smashville, or delfino.

And like I said, our recovery certainly isn't the best in the game, but it's much better than most people give us credit for. Most people play against Links like the purple one in the first video SSJ2Link posted and think Link has a super gimpable recovery. This is how a good Link looks at recovery.

 

[Hitman JT]

Randomly started a discussion on vs. over on the Bowser boards, anyone's free to come weigh in on it. Our thread isn't quite as organized as everyone else but we still do stuff.
http://smashboards.com/threads/carrot-me-bro-the-bowser-match-up-topic.372268/page-9#post-18673343

 

[Blade Knight]

I managed to get some nice, high quality footage of some matches I played against a Link recorded. I think in their total they teach us several important things. The Mega Man has the tag 'Dr. Peace' which is what my internet handle name has been everywhere but smashboards since Fall 2007. Doc Peace/Doktor Peace is usually what I go by now, though.

Duck Hunt:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brzLsdLowxk

Guar Plains Ω:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0skE8R8pBYA

Battlefield:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bje1iBoFskc

Lylat Cruise:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TtbrgEyj0M

Coloseum Ω:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_IAL7y4ttE

Mario Circuit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ3_FznxLBM

Link's Nair can beat out two Lemons but loses to a third.
Link's jab annoyingly hits behind himself on the third swing, if you dodge roll around him, power shield immediately if the Link's jab is continuing.
Don't try to ledgestall vs Link, he can just stage spike you with bombs or down air.
Platforms benefit Mega Man's movement and combos much more than Link.
Up Smash is very high risk, high reward this matchup as a roll punish.
Crash Bomber is better than I expected, it can put in decent work, but Leaf Shield is still as bad as I thought.
Lemons do snuff out all of Link's projectiles except bombs.
A well spaced Fair can hit Link out of Up Smash and set you upf for a grab or other followup.
Kind of obvious, but you can shieldgrab Link between hit one and hit two of his Fsmash.

 

[shinhed-echi]

That was great info, this matchup is still one of the most difficult ones.

Lately, I would only use Megaman as a counter to these guys:, and maybe . While I normally wouldn't touch him if I were up against these guys: .

But I've seen some really helpful tips against , man this MU is so annoying. Blade Knight makes it look easy. But I did learn from the videos at least.
I have to be really cautious about his boomerang when I'm in mid-range area, because I've taken several direct Usmash follow ups right after it.

 

[Blade Knight]

Is there anything else anybody would like to bring up about this matchup? This is a pretty major one I would say since Link is a very popular character, we should wring this out for all we can. I think at this point more footage might help a lot.

 

[Locke 06]

Tomorrow will be the last day for Link.

I've flip flopped on this MU a bit. I've played a couple matches with Cacogen, a very good Link main, and they have all been close with me losing due to a general lack of experience and sealing stocks. I've had trouble edge guarding Link, due to tether and slowness of our DAir. And getting kills is annoying when bombs eat charge shots and he's constantly throwing out projectiles to ward away RAR BAirs. What's worse is that my perception of Link is always skewed by terrible For Glory Links and good Links are a rarity. Like usually, we win neutral, but bombs are legit along with Z-air spacing and it ends up being mostly trading damage. The idea of bombs laying on the ground makes Link's neutral a lot scarier, so I'm interested to see how that trap play develops. Rage link is scary, because jab>dsmash will end Mega, and ftilt is a solid kill move (despite being f14). His uthrow kills too, which is very handy for him. His aerials have low landing lag and combining that with his really fast fall speed (jarring compared to his normal fall speed), his aerial approach isn't bad. Link punishes hard with range on his normals, so missed grabs = jab1+whatever, while missed kill moves or blocked DA/dtilt are fsmashes (which do over 20% of damage). You can't space aerials on his shield due to the tether, but I think cross up FAir is safe. I have it as even or slightly in our favor, due to us being able to dictate the MU flow mostly, but I could see it being closer to even. While you can say, "pellets cancel out boomerang+bow," SH arrows are hard to deal with if you're trying to snipe them.

Dtilt slide under grounded bomb throws and NAir gimping are the 2 pieces of advice that have helped me with the matchup.

PS: Next topic will be Samus and there will be a surprise introduced mid-way through the discussion period.

 

[Greward]

I'd agree with +1 for MM. Bombs and jab are super annoying tho. Luckily without bomb in hand he really can't do a lot to get past a pellet wall. This matchup feels like an easier Lucario.
We aren't taking into account the famous jab infinite, although I'm not sure if it's that reliable. If he can do it realiably we might be facing a hard matchup, but I have yet to see any Links doing that.

 

[Locke 06]

With the modification of how diagonals work on the 3ds, I want to say that it will be patched to match it on the Wii U increasing the input difficulty. I thought about bringing it up, but I'm not sure if it's worth worrying about. Link mains can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong though.

Edit: I think this is a harder matchup than the Lucario one for Mega Man. Link's bombs, ranged/disjointed normals, and fast fall sex kick makes his neutral and disadvantage better than Lucario's. That said, he doesn't have aura stuff that makes his neutral better at high %'s, but Lucario's projectiles are strictly horizontal.

Yeup. Changing topics after I eat dinner. Get in your last words here otherwise, move the Link discussion to the general thread (like the Wario discussion that is going on in there). New topic post ETA: 8:30 PST

 

[Douchuumen]

Hey Mega Man players

Which characters would you guys say have a good matchup against MM/can effectively shut down his projectile game? Even with powershielding and stuff it seems like it'll be hard to shut down for a lot of characters.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I don't think anybody can effectively shutdown mega's projectile game. The chars that I feel are disadvantages for us are the ones who have effective ways to get around it (sheik, CF, possibly Pit, for example)

I'm a bit sad that I missed the whole link discussion, but I think he and samus are incredibly similar to play against. As long as we hold our pellet spacing, we win both matchups, imo. But both of them have options to beat us up close AND from far away, which is pretty rare. I'd call both of them 6-4s in our favor, as they have a heck of a time getting OUT of the midrange, but they win other aspects of the matchups.

 

[CopShowGuy]

Hey Mega Man players

Which characters would you guys say have a good matchup against MM/can effectively shut down his projectile game? Even with powershielding and stuff it seems like it'll be hard to shut down for a lot of characters.

What Fenrir said. He can just throw so much stuff that the only way to shut it down is to constantly shield or reflect. That's a bad idea.

 

[Locke 06]

Decent Link discussion. I encourage more, because I think this matchup hasn't really been fully explored at a high level. The run of the mill For Glory Links really tarnish the image of the character, and you could probably split the matchup into two discussions - For Glory Links and High Level Links.

But thanks. Shoutout to @ Zelkam for coming over and helping us out.

-----------------------------

It's been a while since we've been in outer space, so we'll go back to fight the fully equipped bounty hunter.

discussion now.

There has been a lot of talk of how Samus can be very dangerous to Mega Man. ~Half charged charge shots eat through pellets, crash bombs, and metal blades. However, there is also talk of how Mega Man shuts down Samus with his mid-range game. Hopefully we can clear this up and talk about how this matchup plays out at a high level.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

I think this matchup is all about spacing, you have to be right around pellet range the whole time. Too close and samus has really good melee and aerial attacks that out prioritize us. Too far and we let him get his buster and missiles going.

 

[CopShowGuy]

You really have to keep pressure on Samus to discourage her from getting fully charged Charge Shots ready. If she does, suddenly a lot of stuff Mega Man does is very very unsafe.

 

[meleebrawler]

You really have to keep pressure on Samus to discourage her from getting fully charged Charge Shots ready. If she does, suddenly a lot of stuff Mega Man does is very very unsafe.

Not even fully, about half-charged shots still do a good job of blowing through Rock's stuff.

 

[Xygonn]

I happened to show up because I like Megaman a lot. I think this is 60:40 Megaman. For reference Xyro thinks megaman is a hard counter to Samus.

Charge shot is main thing we have going for us. Lemons eat missiles and even super missiles, which takes away some of our spacing options while not really hurting your spacing options at all.

Like someone said earlier in this thread, you guys want to be out of ftilt range but in lemon range. Even if we get in, you have that super annoying sliding dtilt that sets up your favorite move against us. Samus is very susceptible to air shooter. She is tall (easy to hit a landing air shooter), floaty, and slow horizontally (about the same speed as megaman when we are in morph ball after dropping a bomb). Total air shooter fodder (basically the full component of megaman > samus). Plus you have usmash, which is pretty fast and puts us up, and utilt which is an out the top kill move which are relatively more effective on samus than horizontal kills.

On the plus side for Samus, you guys are fairly gimpable, and the only change up on your recovery is that you can use rush then jump rather than jump than rush. Lots of stuff works if we get you off stage. Basically everything is on the table: zair, fair, dair, stage spike bair, nair, missiles, bomb, charge shot. You guys are ok at gimping Samus with your fair and bair, but nothing really more particularly interesting than any other character.

You guys have a pretty bad dair, which is the biggest hole we can exploit. Basically, my goal against megaman is to get my CS so he can't safely stay at long range, then stay below him whenever possible (dash attack and dtilt especially), but you have so many options to get Samus above you, it's hard to actually maintain that location.

 

[meleebrawler]

Do keep in mind that Zair is a good tool for Samus in fighting Rock when he's in his mid-range
comfort zone.

 

[HeroMystic]

Megaman pretty much shows everything that is wrong with Samus in this game.

75:25 in Megaman's favor. If anyone disagrees with this then you obviously haven't seen a Megaman who knows how to use pellets to invalidate -a lot- of Samus' options.

If Megaman has Samus cornered she is hard-pressed to do anything that'll get her punished. Megaman's U-tilt is the perfect punisher for rolling and can kill her at 120% without rage. Raged U-air stops Samus from landing safely and since she is a floaty character this is especially bad, and Megaman's D-air beats tether and Up-B and is a great spiking move, and pellets stop almost everything.

(Half) Charged Shot and Z-air are Samus' best friends this fight, and I find that Z-air should definitely be your go-to option for this MU because it's always ready. Samus' goal here is to combo Megaman as much as possible and then knock him away to get a charged shot ready so she can have a way to keep Megaman uncomfortable, then mindgame her way to victory.

Pellets are -that- much of a problem though.

 

[FlAlex]

Megaman pretty much shows everything that is wrong with Samus in this game.

75:25 in Megaman's favor. If anyone disagrees with this then you obviously haven't seen a Megaman who knows how to use pellets to invalidate -a lot- of Samus' options.

If Megaman has Samus cornered she is hard-pressed to do anything that'll get her punished. Megaman's U-tilt is the perfect punisher for rolling and can kill her at 120% without rage. Raged U-air stops Samus from landing safely and since she is a floaty character this is especially bad, and Megaman's D-air beats tether and Up-B and is a great spiking move, and pellets stop almost everything.

(Half) Charged Shot and Z-air are Samus' best friends this fight, and I find that Z-air should definitely be your go-to option for this MU because it's always ready. Samus' goal here is to combo Megaman as much as possible and then knock him away to get a charged shot ready so she can have a way to keep Megaman uncomfortable, then mindgame her way to victory.

Pellets are -that- much of a problem though.

/\ This. Ive gone against one of your MegaMen. Pain in my chozo-butt those lemons.... We went at least five games and I had no wins. I tried everything against MM. ftilt, SH>AirDodge, FJ, Jab1, uncharged CS. I got nothing. Just space well and you can make MELEE Marth feel insecure about his mid-range game.

 

[Blade Knight]

Have to agree with these Samus players on this one. Playing from Mega Man's side well spaced Lemons arre absurdly safe and good in this matchup. They rack damage for free, destroy both kinds of missiles, stuff uncharged shots, and punish anything she can try for at that range, even Z-air if you're short hopping even periodically to stay mobile. Plus the buster sweetspot can bully Samus if you're closing in, it takes even more of the stage away from her forcing her to play from the corner. Up Air, Fair, Nair and Bair all prevent her from jumping over us to reclaim land, meaning she has to fight us head on, which requires getting past the lemons.

Even once she has a charge shot our up close game can still do well against her if we have a metal blade in hand. One grab basically nullifies anything she can do until she hits the ground again, which is easily her biggest weakness overall in Smash 4 and we prae on that well. I'd argue this one's at least 70:30 in Mega Man's favor.

Samus can combo us pretty well and rack damage up too, plus we're not even approaching safe off stage but we just dominate her so hard on stage regardless of platforms that it's an uphill battle for her.

 

[wildvine47]

Hey Megaman boards, you're this week's Diddy Kong matchup! Please come on over and discuss the matchup with us, and share your expertise on how best to deal with Megaman, and how you counterplay against us Diddies.
We promise we'll refrain from hoo-hah'ing whilst you're visiting.

 

[DungeonMaster]

I absolutely love megaman, in game and out, I was one of those people who when they revealed him in smash literally jumped out of their seat and screamed yes for 20 minutes.
He's my secondary in this game, I know him very well and I know the megaman boards very well.

I'm going to respectfully disagree with my fellow Samus players, with the caveat that they are likely all better players than me, I'm not a pro and my job currently prevents competition (will change in ~6 months). It could be that at very high level the matchup switches into megaman's favour but for mere mortals this is a terrible, awful matchup for megaman. Quite possibly the worst. I cannot recall ever losing to mega as Samus. I play a *very* mellee+charge shot focused Samus, missiles are rarity from me.
The break-even point is about 60% damage. If mega has not won the stock by about 60% damage on him pretty much any move that Samus throws out gives her 1.5 seconds which is enough to get a half-charged shot. The other problem is Samus can dish out damage in the blink of an eye with just one combo. Once the shot is loaded - nothing is safe. Jump? Charge shot timed to your landing. Ok, so up-B before landing -> she knows this, starts charging another shot immediately since your up-B sends you sky high, worse problem now. Pellets? Charge shot. Lemons? Charge shot. Blade? Charge shot. Leaf shield... lol, just no. If she's sitting at f-tilt range what do you do? You both dash and walk at the same speed, there's no mixup possible. Nothing is safe. Literally nothing. We play can and mouse for awhile but if the reads are equal you're basically dead, every trade means another charge shot and it starts to get fully charged which is downhill slope fast.
I feel extremely safe in short hop aerial pursuit against megaman, I know his hitboxes really well, and it is possible to win out with Samus in the air at a high ratio move vs. move. Z-air I feel is mixup, not focus, but Samus can literally start an air-dodge and cancel it with z-air at any point, so if she sees pellets, z-air. Megaman has huge cooldown on his ground game, the Samus up-tilt can land after his dash, a spot dodged f-smash, the d-smash, the d-tilt, the up-tilt, and Samus' up-tilt is a major combo starter, you can eat a 38% pack of damage instantly from one punish. Megaman just simply can't do that in return.
Again, for mere mortals, this is hard as hell.