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Q&A Zero Suit Samus- Quick Question, Quick Answer Thread

pichuthedk

Smash Lord
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Yeah I did that , I did the string i mentioned at like 17-40 something % what ever fresh dsmash -> jab 1 -> downsmash -> boost kick. maybe jab had like queues used before i did it.

although I donno man this inconsistency is killing me. I didn't make it out of pools today pretty bummed and not even gonna bother johning about the crap i went through before the tourney , got so salty I borrowed a 3ds and smash time to hit the lab....
 

Animosity

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 31, 2015
Messages
6
I went through the six pages briefly and I want to mention, I didn't see much being discussed about her up smash. If I missed it I'm sorry.

How effective is this move, and how often do you guys use it, if ever? I watch a fairly experienced player play her without using it at all, even in situations where the opponent is obnoxiously hopping back and forth over their head, or coming down from above. See, I use it often. It's always come in handy for me and works for the most part. The only time I really face a penalty for it is when it fails at the edge of a stage and they come up and attack me from the side. If it misses when they're up high, they usually avoid it by jumping and that still gives me enough time to recover from the animation.

I was reprimanded for using the attack and told that it shouldn't be used at all due to its low damage and long-cast rate. ...And I was told the same thing for down air.

What do you guys think?
 

BatShark

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Sep 30, 2014
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146
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Usmash can be really good anti-air, or as a frame trap on opponents overhead, and can cover platforms very well from below. I think it certainly has a place.
 

Dr. Tuen

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Usmash is nice for hitting people as they land on platforms too. It's really safe in that situation, but the reward isn't as high as it would be for hitting a uair. Uair leads to Boost Kick. Boost Kick is ZSS's win stick. Boot? Yeah. Win boot.
 

Jaxas

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Hum hum~ I'll have to see what I can look into for that. I'm going to attend a small local event this Saturday so I'll see if I can work it in (first event in... years? Size aside, I'm hyped!).

I think our jab has a small crouch cancel window too, so that could assist with landing dsmash after the first jab. I haven't even considered something like that before, so some testing will be required.
See, I KNEW I recognized that name from somewhere! It was great having you there, lol.

As for Usmash, though, I'm pretty sure it catches air dodges. Pretty easy to land, but doesn't do much damage.
Pretty sure it generally keeps people above you though, which sets up for Uair strings!

Dair is pretty bad, though, from what I'm aware of; only use I've found for (sheik's which works the same way as) it is that if you Dair on one of Diddy's bananas it clanks so you don't get endlag, while also destroying the banana.
 

NickRiddle

#negativeNick
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You can dair bananas and always land with no lag?!
Why didn't I know that...

My love for dair is now eternal.
 

Dr. Tuen

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See, I KNEW I recognized that name from somewhere! It was great having you there, lol.

As for Usmash, though, I'm pretty sure it catches air dodges. Pretty easy to land, but doesn't do much damage.
Pretty sure it generally keeps people above you though, which sets up for Uair strings!

Dair is pretty bad, though, from what I'm aware of; only use I've found for (sheik's which works the same way as) it is that if you Dair on one of Diddy's bananas it clanks so you don't get endlag, while also destroying the banana.
It was a fun event! I think I'll do better vs sheik when I stop responding to fair into shield with attempted (emphasis on attempted) shield grabs, heh.

I'm not sure usmash can strictly catch an airdodge that's not predicted. Usmash has hitboxes out for 20 frames, and air dodges yield invulnerability for 22-25 frames? I couldn't find concrete numbers. Given that the first few hits of Usmash are as the whip is extending, that means if the falling person is reacting to you using the Usmash, it can be pretty easily dodged through. If the ZSS is predicting your air dodge... whelp, it'll probably hit.
 

Jaxas

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You can dair bananas and always land with no lag?!
Why didn't I know that...

My love for dair is now eternal.
Haven't tested it with ZSS, but that's how it works with Sheik's and I'd assume it's the same with how similar the moves are.

It was a fun event! I think I'll do better vs sheik when I stop responding to fair into shield with attempted (emphasis on attempted) shield grabs, heh.

I'm not sure usmash can strictly catch an airdodge that's not predicted. Usmash has hitboxes out for 20 frames, and air dodges yield invulnerability for 22-25 frames? I couldn't find concrete numbers. Given that the first few hits of Usmash are as the whip is extending, that means if the falling person is reacting to you using the Usmash, it can be pretty easily dodged through. If the ZSS is predicting your air dodge... whelp, it'll probably hit.
Yeah, shield-grabbing Sheik's Fair doesn't work unfortunately; pretty sure that if it's mis-spaced you can UpB OoS in response, though...
Haven't tested it specifically, but I've seen it a number of times.
 

Dr. Tuen

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Yeah, shield-grabbing Sheik's Fair doesn't work unfortunately; pretty sure that if it's mis-spaced you can UpB OoS in response, though...
Yeah, I think Nick posted a video regarding the boost kicking ability of ZSS. From the frames, it makes sense too. Boost Kick comes out on Frame 4, as some of the updated data analysis has shown. Which means... if spacing allows... there is only one air normal in the entire game that can hit our shield inside boost kick range, land, and avoid getting hit. Megaman's nair, since it does not incur landing lag within a 3-shot burst.

That's... really cool. I may look up the end lag on ground moves to see how much that holds true there. I'll bet there are jabs that are too fast to boost kick. And there's lots of specials that are ranged, zairs, and things that bounce off shield (bouncing fish, heh).

Is there such a thing as utilt out of shield? Usmash is executed by jumping and pressing up on the c-stick. Maybe if the c-stick was set to attack? I ask cause utilt is out on frame 3 and has invulnerability on her legs on that same frame. It could be a useful tool for stuffing moves when trying to preserve boost kick or for setting up uair to a boost kick at a higher elevation.
 

Tobi_Whatever

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I just thought about something. Do stale moves even influence our combo potential aside from border percents?
Let's say we can start to combo someone with dThrow > uAir > uAir > uSpecial at 35%, stale moves would mean that the hitstun wouldn't last long enough.
But if we would do the same at say 45% at which the combo still works anyway even with only fresh moves, it would also work with a let's say 3x stale uAir. It would work even longer because our uSpecial height wouldn't need to be as high if uAir is stale.

Is there such a thing as utilt out of shield? Usmash is executed by jumping and pressing up on the c-stick. Maybe if the c-stick was set to attack? I ask cause utilt is out on frame 3 and has invulnerability on her legs on that same frame. It could be a useful tool for stuffing moves when trying to preserve boost kick or for setting up uair to a boost kick at a higher elevation.
If you set the c-stick to attack and try to use it in shield you end up doing a grab.
If you press jump and c-stick up you end up doing an uAir or a zAir, depending on your finger on your shield button. You can't cancel your jump.
If you drop the shield and use c-stick up you end up doing the uTilt but you have to wait for the shield drop frames.
 
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pichuthedk

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The only thing I hate about up smash is getting hit when I hit them first I'd be fine with clanging and resetting, but seriously how many times have you guys gotten hit from up smashing someone standing above on a bf platform...

Aside from that the fact that it sets up for up air strings is just sexy.
 

Vaiz

Smash Rookie
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Feb 12, 2015
Messages
2
Hi ZSS mains , I have a few questions regarding the problems I have as ZSS.

How do I close the gap against projectile heavy characters?

Most of the time I use the stun gun + grab + dthrow +uair.

However I end up using this combo too often which leads to the next question.


How do I learn to mix up attack patterns?

I'm not sure if I'm the only one but I'm always ending up using the same combo over and over again thus becoming predictable.


So what are the best attack combos aside from stun+ grab +dthrow + uair?
 

smashkng

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Hi ZSS mains , I have a few questions regarding the problems I have as ZSS.

How do I close the gap against projectile heavy characters?

Most of the time I use the stun gun + grab + dthrow +uair.

However I end up using this combo too often which leads to the next question.


How do I learn to mix up attack patterns?

I'm not sure if I'm the only one but I'm always ending up using the same combo over and over again thus becoming predictable.


So what are the best attack combos aside from stun+ grab +dthrow + uair?
If they spam projectiles, jump above them and make use of your air mobility to get in, or powershield them, walk forward (because you can't shield at the beginning of dashes, and from walking you don't lose a single option you have compared to standing), PS again if necessary and once you get in once close enough (which is pretty easy since ZSS has much good mobility) rush into them and punish them (or pressure them, if not punish is guaranteed). And learn how much lag each chars' projectile has, so that you can be sure when a punish is guaranteed after shielding one, and if . If you're facing ROB I recommend baiting out his projectiles first and then rush him down during the time he can't use them (Robo Beam can only be thrown out again after 4 seconds, and Gyro has to disappear first and it has to first stop rotating on the ground before it does, which takes like 2 or 3 seconds). Zair is also great to frustrate opponents trying to shoot projectiles at you because of its very long reach which makes it easy to poke them out of trying to throw out a projectile. On top of that if it hits them it could lead into dash attacks which then leads into juggles as I've written below. With proper positioning and use of stage control they'll really struggle finding a good place to safely shoot projectiles at you. Paralyser can interrupt some projectiles pretty well too, but not that well vs others, like Sheik Needles.

Mix ups are great yeah. That's part of how you play ZSS. Learn to fast fall well and space well, that'll help you with mix ups. For example, ZSS can fast fall pretty quickly after jumping (both short hop, full hop and double jump). Like, a spaced Nair or Bair is safe on shield, but if they shield it and keep doing so and shield the Ftilt, you'll be safe but it can be hard to keep the pressure if that's all you do. But if you mix up FF aerials, with FF empty jumps and non-FF aerials, it'll be much trickier for them to know when they're able to punish you. They won't know when you''ll hit their shield, which regardless they won't be able to punish you, and they won't know even if you'll hit their shield at all. They'll eventually get caught by the aerials or tricked by the fact that you didn't touch their shield and they'll probably attempt and OoS option just to get dash attack or something else like Ftilted by ZSS (I'm able to bait the OoS option very often with empty jumps and then punish the attempt with dash attack on reaction). Or if despite all they just keep holding shield after this jump mix up, you can grab, which can be risky (but also very rewarding), or reset the pressure and again jump and once again force them into this scary situation which when executed properly will result in a reset back into neutral for them at best with a weak punish. These aerials are very difficult to anti-air when spaced correctly, especially when you are unpredictable with them. You might think first that "but they could roll away". However, that's also a risky option for them, because you can react to that after they react to your jump, and then punish the roll away with dash attack (it's easier when you empty jump because you'll more frames when landing, as landing has only 2-4 frames landing recovery frames while Nair has 10 frames and Bair has 11 frames). And if they roll into you, you could Utilt on reaction. And these aerials have too little lag to be punished with sidestepping and doing that could just lead to it getting baited, or if you're able to punish it on time, reset the pressure. Though some chars can crouch under Bair, you can always with with Nair low enough and Bair has very little landing lag and crouching still loses to some options like Dair, and once they push that button after crouching (which they can have a hard time telling when's a good opportunity to do so when you mix your FF and spacing effectively) they'll leave themselves open to a counter attack. So again it's still a situation in ZSS' favour. It's very easy for ZSS to land outside the range of the anti-airs because of her long range moves and her air mobility. So that's an example of how mix ups greatly helps for pressuring opponents.

Another good mix up is to mix between charges of paralyser and that way once again can be difficult to deal with when used correctly. It can be annoying to them because it slowly moves forward to them and when mixed they won't know when to shield and how long to hold it. And from long enough range jumping won't help them much because you'll be too far away to be punished. Be more careful with this vs Diddy and Sheik though cause they have better options than almost everyone else to deal with Paralyser. It's a reason why I'm more careful with that vs them. These kinds mix ups often force opponents into shield, and once you do they'll leave themselves open to grab. ZSS is a pretty read based character, so you often will have to make guesses (although you can be very safe with them as you may have noticed). But the rewards she gets from reads really pay off. So definitely always check how the opponent reacts to your actions and ADAPT to that. Also ocasionally using mixed charged Dsmashes in neutral is pretty safe as the only drawback it has is its 20 frames start-up (watch out for well timed aerials above the Dsmash hitbox though, but even then you could stop the Dsmash early and proceed to anti-air afterwards. Dsmash has too little lag to really be whiff punished on reaction). It can make them think twice before rushing into you from the ground, as it stuffs such kinds of approaches very well and is safe on shield (or at least that's how it seems like from my experience). So yeah mixing up stuff will be more effective once you become good at understanding from which ranges you can be attacked and space your positioning very well in general (like you dash to shield from a range which is safe, from too close you're stuck with not being able to shield for example). Optimal positioning will limit the opponent's options, making it much more likely for a read to hit them and have take control over their actions in general.

Uair strings in the air (especially once it starts putting opponent into tumble state from around 30%, weight dependant) into Uair, Fair, Bair or Up b. Landing Uair into Utilt at low %s. Dthrow Fair and Dthrow Uair. Fair is pretty guaranteed too after Dthrow (though it stops being as guaranteed at high percents compared to Uair) and can put them offstage and in the corner of the stage. I also like to ocasionally attempt to go for a Bair after Dthrow at %s Bair KOes but Uair does not. So depending on the situation Dthrow Fair is better than Dthrow Uair. And yeah doing the same combo over and over isn't always the best idea, because sometimes going for another route (like Fair instead of Uair after Dthrow, and Bair after Uair) gives you better positional advantage or better damage from the combo. Dsmash into almost anything. Uncharged paralyser into stuff depending on from how far away it hits (if hit from too close you'll be earlier in the recovery frames of the moves, making it not combo into grab but still into things like Dash attack or Utilt). Fully charged Paralyser confirms into just about anything however. Nair into grab at low %s and between around 50-80%, Nair into Down b depending on DI. Zair into dash attack at just about any %. Jab 1 can lead into Up b or Utilt from closer range, depending on character (floatier chars will get hit even on the ground easier, chars like Sheik and Diddy have to be hit out of the air or else they'll have time to shield). A lot of ZSS' combos require good hitconfirming and reactions to DI. Like some follow-ups are unsafe but still with quick enough reactions always possible to tell before you do that if that move hit them or not, like Zair into dash attack. So you gotta be very quick with your decision makings. Though practicing them in training mode is still a very good idea to check when different things true combo and to memorise the combos and like when Uair starts to tumble them.

I hope this answers your questions ^_^.
 
Last edited:

Jaxas

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Yeah, I think Nick posted a video regarding the boost kicking ability of ZSS. From the frames, it makes sense too. Boost Kick comes out on Frame 4, as some of the updated data analysis has shown. Which means... if spacing allows... there is only one air normal in the entire game that can hit our shield inside boost kick range, land, and avoid getting hit. Megaman's nair, since it does not incur landing lag within a 3-shot burst.

That's... really cool. I may look up the end lag on ground moves to see how much that holds true there. I'll bet there are jabs that are too fast to boost kick. And there's lots of specials that are ranged, zairs, and things that bounce off shield (bouncing fish, heh).

Is there such a thing as utilt out of shield? Usmash is executed by jumping and pressing up on the c-stick. Maybe if the c-stick was set to attack? I ask cause utilt is out on frame 3 and has invulnerability on her legs on that same frame. It could be a useful tool for stuffing moves when trying to preserve boost kick or for setting up uair to a boost kick at a higher elevation.
Holy crap, that is awesome! (And also concerning as a Sheik main, but...)
I don't think we have cooldown frames on stuff yet though, just startup and landing; hopefully someone can correct me though.
 

Vaiz

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 12, 2015
Messages
2
If they spam projectiles, jump above them and make use of your air mobility to get in, or powershield them, walk forward (because you can't shield at the beginning of dashes, and from walking you don't lose a single option you have compared to standing), PS again if necessary and once you get in once close enough (which is pretty easy since ZSS has much good mobility) rush into them and punish them (or pressure them, if not punish is guaranteed). And learn how much lag each chars' projectile has, so that you can be sure when a punish is guaranteed after shielding one, and if . If you're facing ROB I recommend baiting out his projectiles first and then rush him down during the time he can't use them (Robo Beam can only be thrown out again after 4 seconds, and Gyro has to disappear first and it has to first stop rotating on the ground before it does, which takes like 2 or 3 seconds). Zair is also great to frustrate opponents trying to shoot projectiles at you because of its very long reach which makes it easy to poke them out of trying to throw out a projectile. On top of that if it hits them it could lead into dash attacks which then leads into juggles as I've written below. With proper positioning and use of stage control they'll really struggle finding a good place to safely shoot projectiles at you. Paralyser can interrupt some projectiles pretty well too, but not that well vs others, like Sheik Needles.

Mix ups are great yeah. That's part of how you play ZSS. Learn to fast fall well and space well, that'll help you with mix ups. For example, ZSS can fast fall pretty quickly after jumping (both short hop, full hop and double jump). Like, a spaced Nair or Bair is safe on shield, but if they shield it and keep doing so and shield the Ftilt, you'll be safe but it can be hard to keep the pressure if that's all you do. But if you mix up FF aerials, with FF empty jumps and non-FF aerials, it'll be much trickier for them to know when they're able to punish you. They won't know when you''ll hit their shield, which regardless they won't be able to punish you, and they won't know even if you'll hit their shield at all. They'll eventually get caught by the aerials or tricked by the fact that you didn't touch their shield and they'll probably attempt and OoS option just to get dash attack or something else like Ftilted by ZSS (I'm able to bait the OoS option very often with empty jumps and then punish the attempt with dash attack on reaction). Or if despite all they just keep holding shield after this jump mix up, you can grab, which can be risky (but also very rewarding), or reset the pressure and again jump and once again force them into this scary situation which when executed properly will result in a reset back into neutral for them at best with a weak punish. These aerials are very difficult to anti-air when spaced correctly, especially when you are unpredictable with them. You might think first that "but they could roll away". However, that's also a risky option for them, because you can react to that after they react to your jump, and then punish the roll away with dash attack (it's easier when you empty jump because you'll more frames when landing, as landing has only 2-4 frames landing recovery frames while Nair has 10 frames and Bair has 11 frames). And if they roll into you, you could Utilt on reaction. And these aerials have too little lag to be punished with sidestepping and doing that could just lead to it getting baited, or if you're able to punish it on time, reset the pressure. Though some chars can crouch under Bair, you can always with with Nair low enough and Bair has very little landing lag and crouching still loses to some options like Dair, and once they push that button after crouching (which they can have a hard time telling when's a good opportunity to do so when you mix your FF and spacing effectively) they'll leave themselves open to a counter attack. So again it's still a situation in ZSS' favour. It's very easy for ZSS to land outside the range of the anti-airs because of her long range moves and her air mobility. So that's an example of how mix ups greatly helps for pressuring opponents.

Another good mix up is to mix between charges of paralyser and that way once again can be difficult to deal with when used correctly. It can be annoying to them because it slowly moves forward to them and when mixed they won't know when to shield and how long to hold it. And from long enough range jumping won't help them much because you'll be too far away to be punished. Be more careful with this vs Diddy and Sheik though cause they have better options than almost everyone else to deal with Paralyser. It's a reason why I'm more careful with that vs them. These kinds mix ups often force opponents into shield, and once you do they'll leave themselves open to grab. ZSS is a pretty read based character, so you often will have to make guesses (although you can be very safe with them as you may have noticed). But the rewards she gets from reads really pay off. So definitely always check how the opponent reacts to your actions and ADAPT to that. Also ocasionally using mixed charged Dsmashes in neutral is pretty safe as the only drawback it has is its 20 frames start-up (watch out for well timed aerials above the Dsmash hitbox though, but even then you could stop the Dsmash early and proceed to anti-air afterwards. Dsmash has too little lag to really be whiff punished on reaction). It can make them think twice before rushing into you from the ground, as it stuffs such kinds of approaches very well and is safe on shield (or at least that's how it seems like from my experience). So yeah mixing up stuff will be more effective once you become good at understanding from which ranges you can be attacked and space your positioning very well in general (like you dash to shield from a range which is safe, from too close you're stuck with not being able to shield for example). Optimal positioning will limit the opponent's options, making it much more likely for a read to hit them and have take control over their actions in general.

Uair strings in the air (especially once it starts putting opponent into tumble state from around 30%, weight dependant) into Uair, Fair, Bair or Up b. Landing Uair into Utilt at low %s. Dthrow Fair and Dthrow Uair. Fair is pretty guaranteed too after Dthrow (though it stops being as guaranteed at high percents compared to Uair) and can put them offstage and in the corner of the stage. I also like to ocasionally attempt to go for a Bair after Dthrow at %s Bair KOes but Uair does not. So depending on the situation Dthrow Fair is better than Dthrow Uair. And yeah doing the same combo over and over isn't always the best idea, because sometimes going for another route (like Fair instead of Uair after Dthrow, and Bair after Uair) gives you better positional advantage or better damage from the combo. Dsmash into almost anything. Uncharged paralyser into stuff depending on from how far away it hits (if hit from too close you'll be earlier in the recovery frames of the moves, making it not combo into grab but still into things like Dash attack or Utilt). Fully charged Paralyser confirms into just about anything however. Nair into grab at low %s and between around 50-80%, Nair into Down b depending on DI. Zair into dash attack at just about any %. Jab 1 can lead into Up b or Utilt from closer range, depending on character (floatier chars will get hit even on the ground easier, chars like Sheik and Diddy have to be hit out of the air or else they'll have time to shield). A lot of ZSS' combos require good hitconfirming and reactions to DI. Like some follow-ups are unsafe but still with quick enough reactions always possible to tell before you do that if that move hit them or not, like Zair into dash attack. So you gotta be very quick with your decision makings. Though practicing them in training mode is still a very good idea to check when different things true combo and to memorise the combos and like when Uair starts to tumble them.

I hope this answers your questions ^_^.
Thank you for answering my questions. :)I get sometimes stuck in one attack pattern and didn't know what to do. I will try to translate your advice into my playstyle
 
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Dr. Tuen

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Holy crap, that is awesome! (And also concerning as a Sheik main, but...)
I don't think we have cooldown frames on stuff yet though, just startup and landing; hopefully someone can correct me though.
Exactly. Though since we know start up and hit frame end, research can be done to find the answer. If move X (cause I'm too lazy to find a real move) has active hit frames on frames 10-20, just do the move and hold shield. Well, during 1/4 speed training mode, blah blah, whatever people do to count frames. If the total move is 30 frames long, you know the cool down is 10 frames. That method of seeking move cool down will become obsolete as soon as the game data is parsed well enough to get that though... so do it just for the moves that give you trouble :-p.

If you set the c-stick to attack and try to use it in shield you end up doing a grab.
If you press jump and c-stick up you end up doing an uAir or a zAir, depending on your finger on your shield button. You can't cancel your jump.
If you drop the shield and use c-stick up you end up doing the uTilt but you have to wait for the shield drop frames.
... Damn. I was really hoping this could be an answer to things like Diddy's flip kick. I mean, you could still try it, but you can't shield first if you want the fastest utilt response. Or if you are intending to use it for the invincibility.

======
======

What are people's thoughts on ZSS control schemes? I'm currently trying tap jump off, R set to jump (GC controller). I'm considering putting tap jump back on to make OoS options (see: BOOST KICK) easier. And lightly considering setting c-stick to attack. I've heard there are issues with aerial momentum when using smash-stick to perform air moves.
 

smashkng

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NP, Vaiz.

Yeah, I think Nick posted a video regarding the boost kicking ability of ZSS. From the frames, it makes sense too. Boost Kick comes out on Frame 4, as some of the updated data analysis has shown. Which means... if spacing allows... there is only one air normal in the entire game that can hit our shield inside boost kick range, land, and avoid getting hit. Megaman's nair, since it does not incur landing lag within a 3-shot burst.

That's... really cool. I may look up the end lag on ground moves to see how much that holds true there. I'll bet there are jabs that are too fast to boost kick. And there's lots of specials that are ranged, zairs, and things that bounce off shield (bouncing fish, heh).

Is there such a thing as utilt out of shield? Usmash is executed by jumping and pressing up on the c-stick. Maybe if the c-stick was set to attack? I ask cause utilt is out on frame 3 and has invulnerability on her legs on that same frame. It could be a useful tool for stuffing moves when trying to preserve boost kick or for setting up uair to a boost kick at a higher elevation.
Yeah, but you don't jump cancel when you OoS Utilt like you do with Usmash. Instead you shield release Utilt, and shield release takes about 7 frames to do, so if Utilt is a 3 frame move, then OoS Utilt will be 3+7=10 frames. BUT if you powershield, you can ignore these 7 frames of shield release frames and go for Utilt immediately, making Utilt OoS after PSing 3+0 = 3 frames fast, which is amazingly quick. Utilt is an amazing move overall. So yeah with jab being frame 1, we have a 1 frame OoS option from PSing. That's why I highly recommend ZSS mains to learn to PS well (which is a 4 frame window in this game, it was 3 in Brawl so it has become easier to do), because it makes shield pressure against us (especially by someone like Sheik) that much harder. I think Sheik never has enough frames to shield after her Fair a PS Utilt (or at least a PS jab) On top of that, it also almost completely negates shield push, making it more likely for us to be close enough to punish OoS.
 

Dr. Tuen

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NP, Vaiz.


Yeah, but you don't jump cancel when you OoS Utilt like you do with Usmash. Instead you shield release Utilt, and shield release takes about 7 frames to do, so if Utilt is a 3 frame move, then OoS Utilt will be 3+7=10 frames. BUT if you powershield, you can ignore these 7 frames of shield release frames and go for Utilt immediately, making Utilt OoS after PSing 3+0 = 3 frames fast, which is amazingly quick. Utilt is an amazing move overall. So yeah with jab being frame 1, we have a 1 frame OoS option from PSing. That's why I highly recommend ZSS mains to learn to PS well (which is a 4 frame window in this game, it was 3 in Brawl so it has become easier to do), because it makes shield pressure against us (especially by someone like Sheik) that much harder. I think Sheik never has enough frames to shield after her Fair a PS Utilt (or at least a PS jab) On top of that, it also almost completely negates shield push, making it more likely for us to be close enough to punish OoS.
For all the frame counting I've been doing, I haven't considered power shields! I didn't know that PS shield drop was zero frames. That's... really really good. Which reopens all of the things I was considering for utilt. I just have this feeling that utilt will be an even more important part of ZSS's aerial interrupt game going forward.

Thanks for the info!
 

smashkng

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For all the frame counting I've been doing, I haven't considered power shields! I didn't know that PS shield drop was zero frames. That's... really really good. Which reopens all of the things I was considering for utilt. I just have this feeling that utilt will be an even more important part of ZSS's aerial interrupt game going forward.

Thanks for the info!
Just to clarify, it's more like a cancel than an actual shield drop. You can't cancel PS shield drop frames with walking or dash for example, but you can with any normal or special attack (not pivot Fsmash for some reason). And yeah when it comes to anti-airing Utilt is a really good move. It straight out beats a lot of things nobody would have expected, so priority wise it's like a sword.
 
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Tobi_Whatever

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Exactly. Though since we know start up and hit frame end, research can be done to find the answer. If move X (cause I'm too lazy to find a real move) has active hit frames on frames 10-20, just do the move and hold shield. Well, during 1/4 speed training mode, blah blah, whatever people do to count frames. If the total move is 30 frames long, you know the cool down is 10 frames. That method of seeking move cool down will become obsolete as soon as the game data is parsed well enough to get that though... so do it just for the moves that give you trouble :-p.



... Damn. I was really hoping this could be an answer to things like Diddy's flip kick. I mean, you could still try it, but you can't shield first if you want the fastest utilt response. Or if you are intending to use it for the invincibility.

======
======

What are people's thoughts on ZSS control schemes? I'm currently trying tap jump off, R set to jump (GC controller). I'm considering putting tap jump back on to make OoS options (see: BOOST KICK) easier. And lightly considering setting c-stick to attack. I've heard there are issues with aerial momentum when using smash-stick to perform air moves.
We should get more into the crouching thing against Diddy's flip kick.
Also My GC layout:
Z = jump (LR bumpers are awful for jumping imo)
L/y = shield, x = grab, tap jump off because I hate it, never had problems with OOS stuff like boostkick.
C-stick set to attack.
 
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Dr. Tuen

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We should get more into the crouching thing against Diddy's flip kick.
Also My GC layout:
Z = jump (LR bumpers are awful for jumping imo)
L/y = shield, x = grab, tap jump off because I hate it, never had problems with OOS stuff like boostkick.
C-stick set to attack.
Oh, crouch --> utilt with the attack-stick is apparently good because there are less transition (see: more vulnerable) frames.
 

David Viran

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I have brought this up before but I was thinking about PP utilt to counter diddy's rising fair. I was thinking that since her legs were invincible that the rest of her body was low enough to get under it and just hit him out of it. Man I still need to test it though.
 

Jaxas

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I think Sheik never has enough frames to shield after her Fair a PS Utilt (or at least a PS jab) On top of that, it also almost completely negates shield push, making it more likely for us to be close enough to punish OoS.
Just a heads up, but half the reason Sheik's Fair is safe on shield is for a similar reason to Pikachu's stupidity; it puts her really low to the ground, so Utilt and Jab1 are likely to miss. Diddy's Fair may be the same way, as he leans way back.

Haven't tested it for sure though, and there are a number of other moves (such as Boost Kick) that will hit even super low opponents, so there's always that.
 

DeLux

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I've decided to overhaul my control scheme as I switch over to maining Diddy after this next tournament.

Right now I use -

A - Jump
B - Special
C - Attack
D - Taunt
L - Shield
R - Attack
X - Attack
Y - Grab
Z - Jump


I will probably switch to starting next week-

A - Jump
B - Attack
C - Attack
D - Taunt
L - Shield
R - Grab
X - Special
Y - Shield
Z - Jump
 

BatShark

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Aw, you're really switching? Even after they strongly hinted at Diddy nerfs incoming? Do you think ZSS is that limited at high-level play, or just kind of everyone-that-isn't-Sheik-or-Diddy?
 

Tobi_Whatever

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Aw, you're really switching? Even after they strongly hinted at Diddy nerfs incoming? Do you think ZSS is that limited at high-level play, or just kind of everyone-that-isn't-Sheik-or-Diddy?
Diddy nerfs incoming... I lold.
 

BatShark

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Diddy nerfs incoming... I lold.
In the run-up to Apex some Nintendo rep was onstream and while he didn't say anything too specific, a lot of people came away from it agreeing that there were definitely some hints in that direction. Take it for what it's worth, I guess.
 

pichuthedk

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I'm pretty close to just caving in and sacrificing c stick smash for c stick attack.

PP downsmash is something I really want to get down but pp up tilt seems like it would be a much better dps option since it's faster then down smash and I seem to keep doing upsmash out of PP (gaming since I was 5 one would think I have precise control over fingers).

I take it I'm going to have to go into training at a slower speed to get the input down.

About diddys monkey flip I was curious how good turning your back to him more and just trying for sh reverse nairs.

Anyone got anything to pitch on that.
Also when the hell is nintendo going to let me buy a gc adapter ? -_-#
 
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DeLux

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I'm not actually switching, I just wanted to see how people would react if I did :p

(Not switching mains, definitely switching controls)
 
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Tobi_Whatever

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I'm not actually switching, I just wanted to see how people would react if I did :p

(Not switching mains, definitely switching controls)
I knew you were joking. You love that boost kick way too much.
 

Duzzzyy

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How should one play the neutral game and what tools should be utilized? Right now I play a pretty passive hit and run style where I rely on paralyzer, sideB and flip for spacing, fsmash, jab, zair and nair for pretty much my entire neutral. I don't know the optimal moves to use and only wait for them to make a mistake or leave an opening for a quick dash attack that might string into more.
 

Fangblade

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Can opponents DI out of Uspecial? I just could not land the final hit on a fox. I know weight is a factor & he's really lite.
 

smashkng

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Can opponents DI out of Uspecial? I just could not land the final hit on a fox. I know weight is a factor & he's really lite.
I think it's possible when it doesn't connect in the right spot or you don't angle Up b optimally. If you do connect it right, they can, at least in theory, Smash DI out of the very first hit (the other hits except the very last one have a 0 Smash DI multiplier). But that's very very difficult to do not only because there's very little hitlag and therefore there are very few frames to do so, but also because the first hit has a 0.5 Smash DI multiplier, which is a very low multiplier (default is 1.0). And they also would have to predict that first hit. So I don't know if people will ever become good at that. So go to training mode and learn how to angle up b and find the part where they won't get out of it no matter their DI. Most of the time, vs grounded opponents, I just angle it slightly forward. Too far forward and they'll get out. It's all about getting the feeling of where they won't be able to escape.
 

comp666

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any tips for playing against rosalina? Other than kill luma
 
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Crioca

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How do I get past villager's zoning pattern of Side B, Fair, Fair? I'd roll past the rocket and get hit by the 2nd fair, or jump over the rocket and get hit by the first fair.

Edit: in fact now that I think about it, I suck against ranged+roll spam in general.
 
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David Viran

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How do I get past villager's zoning pattern of Side B, Fair, Fair? I'd roll past the rocket and get hit by the 2nd fair, or jump over the rocket and get hit by the first fair.

Edit: in fact now that I think about it, I suck against ranged+roll spam in general.
Run at his loyd rocket and either PS it and second fair or if you're close enough just hit him because loyd doesn't become active for a while and with zss's speed you can easily punish it a lot.

If they roll backwards let them they are giving stage control so all you have to do is walk towards them. When they try to cross you up read it and punish because it can be very predictable.
 
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Tobi_Whatever

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How do I get past villager's zoning pattern of Side B, Fair, Fair? I'd roll past the rocket and get hit by the 2nd fair, or jump over the rocket and get hit by the first fair.

Edit: in fact now that I think about it, I suck against ranged+roll spam in general.
If he does the Loyd you are able to dash attack him without getting hit. Do it until he stops.
You need a lot of patience in this MU and personally, I really hate it.
 

Sandfall

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What is the optimal DI for when you get caught in ZSS's up-b? I have this bad habit of being KOed hilariously early by it.
 

DeLux

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It sort of depends where you are when you get hit.
 
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