Q&A Zero Suit Samus- Quick Question, Quick Answer Thread

[bluesm0ke]

OK here it is http://smashboards.com/threads/new-approach-pivot-ftilt-with-followups.422855/

 

[Duck SMASH!]

HOW THE HELL DO YOU PUNISH HER TETHER RECOVERY?
They were garbage in Brawl but they give ZSS SO MUCH FREEDOM in recovering in this game.
I am aware she isn't invincible but she has free reign over when to reel herself in and get to the ledge, and the tether changes her trajectory as well, making punishes almost impossible because you have ot choose between where she is if she doesn't reel in and where she will be if she does.

Honestly without that tether ZSS's recovery would be much more predictable and punishable....

HOW?

 

[NickRiddle]

Throw a move out in the path she needs to travel.

 

[Tito Maas]

HOW THE HELL DO YOU PUNISH HER TETHER RECOVERY?
They were garbage in Brawl but they give ZSS SO MUCH FREEDOM in recovering in this game.
I am aware she isn't invincible but she has free reign over when to reel herself in and get to the ledge, and the tether changes her trajectory as well, making punishes almost impossible because you have ot choose between where she is if she doesn't reel in and where she will be if she does.

Honestly without that tether ZSS's recovery would be much more predictable and punishable....

HOW?

Definitely aim for where she's going and not where she's at

 

[pichuthedk]

I've been trying to look into what common options players who are always buffering ledge options from fear of the edge trump set ups, so I can better decide how to predict and designate a selected option to punish their choices with.

I've noticed a majority of the time players will try to roll out from it to avoid it.

Is this somewhat the same for at least some of you guys spanning across the mid , high and top levels ?

 

[BatShark]

I've been trying to look into what common options players who are always buffering ledge options from fear of the edge trump set ups, so I can better decide how to predict and designate a selected option to punish their choices with.

I've noticed a majority of the time players will try to roll out from it to avoid it.

Is this somewhat the same for at least some of you guys spanning across the mid , high and top levels ?

Roll or getup attack. I literally don't think I've ever seen anything else, and I don't think I see many mixups on this particular action, either. (Though if I were more proficient at reading and punishing this I probably would.)

 

[pichuthedk]

Roll or getup attack. I literally don't think I've ever seen anything else, and I don't think I see many mixups on this particular action, either. (Though if I were more proficient at reading and punishing this I probably would.)

Well yeah I've been seeing a lot of that as well.

so now I've been looking at just doing fake tether trumps ->tether cancel -> flip jump kick off back off stage, I've caught a number of players with that it's a decent option especially since the hit box lingers for a bit.

 

[BatShark]

Well yeah I've been seeing a lot of that as well.

so now I've been looking at just doing fake tether trumps ->tether cancel -> flip jump kick off back off stage, I've caught a number of players with that it's a decent option especially since the hit box lingers for a bit.

In my opinion (limited to small sample size since I can think of maybe half a dozen players I regularly encounter who do either one of these) there are two types of players who consciously deal with the trump. There are those who deal with it by always buffering their recovery, and that's more often a roll in my experience. And there are those who deal with it by timing their getup attack invuln frames.

I would say gather data from all ledge situations - not just your trumps - and categorize players accordingly. May be worth a correct read or two, but can't vouch for the yomi layers past that, heh.

 

[pichuthedk]

In my opinion (limited to small sample size since I can think of maybe half a dozen players I regularly encounter who do either one of these) there are two types of players who consciously deal with the trump. There are those who deal with it by always buffering their recovery, and that's more often a roll in my experience. And there are those who deal with it by timing their getup attack invuln frames.

I would say gather data from all ledge situations - not just your trumps - and categorize players accordingly. May be worth a correct read or two, but can't vouch for the yomi layers past that, heh.

Mmm fair enough.

Well now that we got that out of the way I have been letting my brain put in some work or rather attempting to lol.

People always recover low vs zss in a majority of the cases and timing the ledge snap people's ability to mix up the timing,

So I was curious if we could not re-innovate NickRiddle 's downsmash footstool from brawl and change it to offstage paralyzers.

I got the idea when I was trying for a Yolo paralyzer to up b on someone in a friendly their words after was the follow.

" I was like if I air dodge this I'm dead " , which was because I had gone low enough with a charged paralyzer.

So my line of thinking is this depending on the character if we go infront of them with a wave bounced paralyzer or behind them with a breverse after full hopping off the stage


1.worst case scenario they hit me with a move I tech it and just recover or I get spike/stage spike like a scrub.

2. They air dodge but die because they are to low anyways.

3. They destroy it and possibly have the same thing happen.

4. I hit them , DJ and foot stool them so they die.

5 I hit them and decide to DJ and flip jump kick spike because Its last stock anyways.

Now aside from the obvious characters this won't work on (reflectors, absorbstion and maybe counters?), how viable is this line of thinking ? Something like this would require a lot of precision. However after awhile vs the same characters should become second nature like alot of our general gameplay.

There probably is a way to either set this up
A wave bounce or jumping off and b reversing back so your behind them aiming for their recovery path.

I am going to wait till I have a moment to test this hopefully with a real person and see what's good.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Mmm fair enough.

Well now that we got that out of the way I have been letting my brain put in some work or rather attempting to lol.

People always recover low vs zss in a majority of the cases and timing the ledge snap people's ability to mix up the timing,

So I was curious if we could not re-innovate NickRiddle 's downsmash footstool from brawl and change it to offstage paralyzers.

I got the idea when I was trying for a Yolo paralyzer to up b on someone in a friendly their words after was the follow.

" I was like if I air dodge this I'm dead " , which was because I had gone low enough with a charged paralyzer.

So my line of thinking is this depending on the character if we go infront of them with a wave bounced paralyzer or behind them with a breverse after full hopping off the stage


1.worst case scenario they hit me with a move I tech it and just recover or I get spike/stage spike like a scrub.

2. They air dodge but die because they are to low anyways.

3. They destroy it and possibly have the same thing happen.

4. I hit them , DJ and foot stool them so they die.

5 I hit them and decide to DJ and flip jump kick spike because Its last stock anyways.

Now aside from the obvious characters this won't work on (reflectors, absorbstion and maybe counters?), how viable is this line of thinking ? Something like this would require a lot of precision. However after awhile vs the same characters should become second nature like alot of our general gameplay.

There probably is a way to either set this up
A wave bounce or jumping off and b reversing back so your behind them aiming for their recovery path.

I am going to wait till I have a moment to test this hopefully with a real person and see what's good.

I'm thinking that pinning the recovering party between you and the stage as you fire the paralyzer may be best. It prevents the scenario where you get stage spiked, so that's nice. I'm super curious to see if paralyzer to flip kick is true. Maybe if I get a few minutes later I'll give that a go. It'd be nice if the paralyzer hit can go straight into flip kick... so that we have our double jump saved in case we miss!

 

[pichuthedk]

I'm thinking that pinning the recovering party between you and the stage as you fire the paralyzer may be best. It prevents the scenario where you get stage spiked, so that's nice. I'm super curious to see if paralyzer to flip kick is true. Maybe if I get a few minutes later I'll give that a go. It'd be nice if the paralyzer hit can go straight into flip kick... so that we have our double jump saved in case we miss!

at certain ranges it is I did it in balanced dubs today because if they are at that right distance you can catch them when they are flung back in the air.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

at certain ranges it is I did it in balanced dubs today because if they are at that right distance you can catch them when they are flung back in the air.

I uh. Hmm. I was going to do a quick frame data analysis on this sequence, but I ran into a hitch. I have no idea how stun works in this game. I know it keeps you locked for way longer than hit lag, but I have no other specific knowledge on it. This may require frame counting somewhere.

Which I will not do. Not yet. Too busy >.>

 

[pichuthedk]

I uh. Hmm. I was going to do a quick frame data analysis on this sequence, but I ran into a hitch. I have no idea how stun works in this game. I know it keeps you locked for way longer than hit lag, but I have no other specific knowledge on it. This may require frame counting somewhere.

Which I will not do. Not yet. Too busy >.>

That's ok I also forgot to mention something that I was trying to account for regarding the threat of a stage spike.

The reason you may want that to be an option Is really for 2 simple reasons.

1. If your % is really low you might just get thst soft hit that doesn't t cause a stage spike

2. If you are on the other side of them it's alot harder to recover if you are knocked away lightly or at a downward angle at least when you are stage spiked even if it's not at a high % you can still recover a majority of the time with a simple dj -> flip jump wall jump.

 

[Honor]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaYtBBESBdo

Remzi
7:21 - Is this a true combo at roughly that percent?

 

[Remzi]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaYtBBESBdo

Remzi
7:21 - Is this a true combo at roughly that percent?

Yep! But you don't have time to angle your flip kick perfectly afterwards, so the key is to space your nair at those percents such that the immediate flip kick afterwards gets the spike hitbox.

 

[Claire Redfield]

I can't seem to figure out the proper distance to hit with ZSS' Plasma Whip to get the big knockback push, rather than the multi-hit into the flaming tip. I much prefer the big knockback because you can edge-guard or totally disrupt an opponent's momentum, and in midair it's the best. What's the right distance to do that?

For that matter, how does Bengal do the controlled fast fall into neutral air so fast? Short hop fast fall NAir that quickly, I've been trying to do it and can't really come close. Do you think he uses "tap up to jump?" I usually don't, but if you're supposed to hit up to jump then down again real quick to fast fall into an air attack, I'm willing to learn it.

 

[RenoInMO]

So I'm going to apologize in advance if this has already been answered at some point, but figured I'd throw it out there.

I have a lot of trouble dealing with projectile-spamming, campy characters (Link is a big one). What is the best way to approach when your opponents keep throwing out projectiles from the edge?

 

[Honor]

So I'm going to apologize in advance if this has already been answered at some point, but figured I'd throw it out there.

I have a lot of trouble dealing with projectile-spamming, campy characters (Link is a big one). What is the best way to approach when your opponents keep throwing out projectiles from the edge?

Practice perfect shielding (once you get the hang of it it's really not that hard) and short hop over projectiles or crawling under them. Most campy characters lose a lot of their options once we get close. ZSS bodies Link and multiple other projectile spammers pretty hard.

 

[Honor]

I can't seem to figure out the proper distance to hit with ZSS' Plasma Whip to get the big knockback push, rather than the multi-hit into the flaming tip. I much prefer the big knockback because you can edge-guard or totally disrupt an opponent's momentum, and in midair it's the best. What's the right distance to do that?

For that matter, how does Bengal do the controlled fast fall into neutral air so fast? Short hop fast fall NAir that quickly, I've been trying to do it and can't really come close. Do you think he uses "tap up to jump?" I usually don't, but if you're supposed to hit up to jump then down again real quick to fast fall into an air attack, I'm willing to learn it.

Plasma Whip is very very situational. Spacing it is difficult (at least for me) even in the best of circumstances.

I use X to jump and short hop when I play ZSS and I rarely jump too high or don't fast fall when I want to. The key thing is to input the fast fall almost on top of whatever attack you are doing.

 

[KyroChao]

I've been picking up ZSS as of late, is there anything really specific i should know to get started and anything i should be aware of?

 

[Honor]

I've been picking up ZSS as of late, is there anything really specific i should know to get started and anything i should be aware of?

One of the most helpful things for me when I was learning the character was watching VaBengal on YouTube. Give that a shot

 

[The_SMILE]

I have a few questions.
1. What determines if the down-b kick spikes?

2. Is b-throw to down-b kick a legit combo at the right percentages?

3. Does the amount of stun time from down-smash and neutral-b depend on percentage? Does everyone just use intuition to choose what punishes they can get off the stun?

 

[M32]

1. you have to hit with the foot, not the leg
2. unless they DI in, it's never true combo, but if they DI in I'm pretty sure it works at a few %
3. neutralB doesn't care about %, dsmash does a lot.

 

[free33]

Hey everyone. I read somewhere that some characters can combo out of jabs that move forward by sliding off the ledge for a ledge cancel. I know ZSS's jab moves her forward. Are there any implications/ combos we can pull off with this? it doesn't seem like it to me, but it would be cool if it worked.

 

[free33]

HOW THE HELL DO YOU PUNISH HER TETHER RECOVERY?
They were garbage in Brawl but they give ZSS SO MUCH FREEDOM in recovering in this game.
I am aware she isn't invincible but she has free reign over when to reel herself in and get to the ledge, and the tether changes her trajectory as well, making punishes almost impossible because you have ot choose between where she is if she doesn't reel in and where she will be if she does.

Honestly without that tether ZSS's recovery would be much more predictable and punishable....

HOW?

If your characetr has a strong up B, run off the stager, then up B and hold down. You can catch the ZSS reeling herself in, and holding down will allow you to move past the ledge and get the full hitbox. Or just run off and Bair. Throwing a projectile down at the edge. is also very powerful due to the predictable recovery trajectory

 

[Reizilla]

How does the tether recovery work? Is it like Brawl wgere you can use it 3 times before it stops working? And is there a pic that shows the range?

 

[pichuthedk]

How does the tether recovery work? Is it like Brawl wgere you can use it 3 times before it stops working? And is there a pic that shows the range?

Yes except the mechanics are wonky at times based on when you last tethered /get hit in cases where you want to try and tether after words you need to wait a certain amount of time before attempting to tether again.

You will get used to it really fast after a bit of salty sds because samus just side bs normally or nairs (if you try to zair tether).


Ok so guys I have a question I ended up losing 2 sets to a rob yesterday, I have better things to do then John so I'll just ask if I made an error with my line of thinking.

I lost winners finals the won set 1 of grands,

When I won game 3 of set 2 I banned fd and dreamland. My line of thinking was this " a majority of my deaths were things like up air , up smash (one of which was the gyro set up) and a few downsmashes"

So I wanted to avoid the obvious camp from fd while also being unable to recover under the stage if things go south.

For dreamland I just felt like the kill potential of the down throw up air from ron wasn't worth the trade off.

Mistakes were made but I did get all sorts of kill set ups like up air to up b strings, I am trying to put serious effort into getting significantly better at this game now so any discussion would be appreciated.

 

[Jams.]

Yes except the mechanics are wonky at times based on when you last tethered /get hit in cases where you want to try and tether after words you need to wait a certain amount of time before attempting to tether again.

You will get used to it really fast after a bit of salty sds because samus just side bs normally or nairs (if you try to zair tether).


Ok so guys I have a question I ended up losing 2 sets to a rob yesterday, I have better things to do then John so I'll just ask if I made an error with my line of thinking.

I lost winners finals the won set 1 of grands,

When I won game 3 of set 2 I banned fd and dreamland. My line of thinking was this " a majority of my deaths were things like up air , up smash (one of which was the gyro set up) and a few downsmashes"

So I wanted to avoid the obvious camp from fd while also being unable to recover under the stage if things go south.

For dreamland I just felt like the kill potential of the down throw up air from ron wasn't worth the trade off.

Mistakes were made but I did get all sorts of kill set ups like up air to up b strings, I am trying to put serious effort into getting significantly better at this game now so any discussion would be appreciated.

IMO ROB's best stages in the matchup are Duck Hunt and FD, for similar reasons (camping, large blastzones, lack of platforms to assist uair strings to upb). Duck Hunt is probably better because the ducks can mess with ZSS's uair strings and flip kick. After that I'd say Smashville or Lylat depending on the ROB player's preference.

ZSS gets much more out Dreamland than ROB does. Platforms don't usually assist dthrow->uair, but they can often help ZSS confirm a kill at even lower %s than she normally does. ZSS just gets more from platforms in general.

Do you mind telling me who the ROB player is or link the bracket? It's not every day a ROB beats a decent ZSS. This matchup is honestly pretty heavily in ZSS's favour (just ask NickRiddle !), so I'm sure you'll be able to win with experience. I'd give a protip for avoiding ROB's gyro ledge set-ups, but the local ZSS browses this thread and I'd like to use that set-up to confirm kills as long as I can. There's a thread on the ROB boards about this set-up and how to avoid it, if you wish to look further. =P

 

[Honor]

Yes except the mechanics are wonky at times based on when you last tethered /get hit in cases where you want to try and tether after words you need to wait a certain amount of time before attempting to tether again.

You will get used to it really fast after a bit of salty sds because samus just side bs normally or nairs (if you try to zair tether).


Ok so guys I have a question I ended up losing 2 sets to a rob yesterday, I have better things to do then John so I'll just ask if I made an error with my line of thinking.

I lost winners finals the won set 1 of grands,

When I won game 3 of set 2 I banned fd and dreamland. My line of thinking was this " a majority of my deaths were things like up air , up smash (one of which was the gyro set up) and a few downsmashes"

So I wanted to avoid the obvious camp from fd while also being unable to recover under the stage if things go south.

For dreamland I just felt like the kill potential of the down throw up air from ron wasn't worth the trade off.

Mistakes were made but I did get all sorts of kill set ups like up air to up b strings, I am trying to put serious effort into getting significantly better at this game now so any discussion would be appreciated.

To be honest I always ban Lylat and I personally hate Castle Siege so I ban that too.

ROB shouldn't be killing you with dthrow to upair unless he makes a really good read. Once we get above 70 to 80% we can Flip Kick away. DON'T TRY TO AIR DODGE! ROB will wait to see if you do and then kill you. It is far safer to simply get out of the situation.

I find Delfino and Battlefield to be the best CPs (if the ROB doesn't ban them) followed by T and C, Smashville, and Dreamland.

Spacing is extremely key in the MU becuase we have so much that is safe against ROB.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

To be honest I always ban Lylat and I personally hate Castle Siege so I ban that too.

ROB shouldn't be killing you with dthrow to upair unless he makes a really good read. Once we get above 70 to 80% we can Flip Kick away. DON'T TRY TO AIR DODGE! ROB will wait to see if you do and then kill you. It is far safer to simply get out of the situation.

I find Delfino and Battlefield to be the best CPs (if the ROB doesn't ban them) followed by T and C, Smashville, and Dreamland.

Spacing is extremely key in the MU becuase we have so much that is safe against ROB.

If spacing is key in this MU, why not just go on a flat stage and limit his options even more? No point in giving him diagonal movement options.
Also reminder to not ban stages just because you don't like them. Git gud on them instead.

 

[pichuthedk]

IMO ROB's best stages in the matchup are Duck Hunt and FD, for similar reasons (camping, large blastzones, lack of platforms to assist uair strings to upb). Duck Hunt is probably better because the ducks can mess with ZSS's uair strings and flip kick. After that I'd say Smashville or Lylat depending on the ROB player's preference.

ZSS gets much more out Dreamland than ROB does. Platforms don't usually assist dthrow->uair, but they can often help ZSS confirm a kill at even lower %s than she normally does. ZSS just gets more from platforms in general.

Do you mind telling me who the ROB player is or link the bracket? It's not every day a ROB beats a decent ZSS. This matchup is honestly pretty heavily in ZSS's favour (just ask NickRiddle !), so I'm sure you'll be able to win with experience. I'd give a protip for avoiding ROB's gyro ledge set-ups, but the local ZSS browses this thread and I'd like to use that set-up to confirm kills as long as I can. There's a thread on the ROB boards about this set-up and how to avoid it, if you wish to look further. =P

Well being perfectly honest I didn't want to state any of this because I felt like it'd be johns...

He is a decent rob the only thing is I have not played the Mu for 2 weeks (which was him at the same tourney where I beat him3 -0), he also got to face a zss like 2 sets before ours. Also I probably deserved it for being ignorant and not changing my smash stick to attack (there were alot of instances where I could have tilted him for rolling behind me and junk)

His tag is pokecheese (pretty sure I spelt it right) and he did get 9th/112 or something at lanwarx s4 singles, I fraud ed out at 25th unfortunate bracket johns.


Anyways talk is cheap Here is the gf video I notice a decent number of things I will be trying to do now.

 

[pichuthedk]

Also I only died to the gyro edge setup like once or twice out of the 16 or whatever number stocks we played throughout both wf and both sets of grand.


, one stage spike and once where I got up long before he even decided to thrown the gyro and he got the free up smash anyways.
Honor
Delphino was a thought however when you are playing like 10 games vs a character that focuses on pissing you off you can make mistakes and let him shark or kill you at 40% during a phase change.

Tobi_Whatever
I was considering that as well but what was nagging me was the hard fact (or so I convinced my self) I will need to either edge cancel flip jumps or " gtfo of dodge" Tarzan under the stage to the other side when things go south.

 

[Honor]

If spacing is key in this MU, why not just go on a flat stage and limit his options even more? No point in giving him diagonal movement options.
Also reminder to not ban stages just because you don't like them. Git gud on them instead.

Point well taken

To be honest I really haven't minded playing ROB on Omega/FD maybe I've only fought ROB's who aren't as good as I am *shrug* but that's what I have found to be the case.

 

[pichuthedk]

Honestly watched most of the set and I could see the fatigue in my play I was going for bair/upairs all the time for his nais but just not throwing them out in time, as well poor spacing in a lot of situations.

I guess it makes sense though since I am up every weekday at 3 am and sometimes work upwards to like 4pm i ended up not getting to sleep much after getting home monday so there is that...oh well next time I suppose I will definitely be baiting those nairs and just pivot grabbing his ass from now.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I was considering that as well but what was nagging me was the hard fact (or so I convinced my self) I will need to either edge cancel flip jumps or " gtfo of dodge" Tarzan under the stage to the other side when things go south.

You can always get more or less easy crossups with SHAD or FJAD if you get cornered.

 

[pichuthedk]

really funny how people are losing their **** over the zss 0-death setup, Even more halarious that it was very close to my original hypothesis. xD
To bad I couldn't tough it out and fully test everything knew a ff nair would have definitely contributed to a spike ;p.

in anycase found something to practice now :D.

 

[aquaonyx]

Remzi I've seen you utilize the mixup of (dthrow + upairs + down b) during some of your sets a xanadu. What is your thought process behind using this? What options does this cover? And why do this versus using the (dthrow + upairs + upB)? I tried to find a video example to clarify my question but i couldn't find the one i was looking for.

 

[Remzi]

Remzi I've seen you utilize the mixup of (dthrow + upairs + down b) during some of your sets a xanadu. What is your thought process behind using this? What options does this cover? And why do this versus using the (dthrow + upairs + upB)? I tried to find a video example to clarify my question but i couldn't find the one i was looking for.

I'll do that in situations where either I don't think the up B is going to fully connect or if the up B won't combo. If either of those scenarios is happening, and I feel like my opponent is scared enough to try and airdodge a possible up B attempt- then I'll down B after the uair and kick them as they come out of the airdodge.

 

[ligersandtigons]

how do i get the spike hitbox with the flip jump kick? is it just a sweetspot or is there a different input or something?

 

[NotAsian]

OK just played a zss for a good hour the only reason I was loosing was because down throw up air and I'm really curious to know why that doesn't stale after 500 times of using it in the match
Anyone have any definite knowledge of how moves stale and refresh I honestly think it's ridiculous that you can use up air all day and at the end of the match it still can confirm kills
I'm salty because everyone has an easy down throw up air confirm but for GW it's extremely difficult to land