D
Deleted member 189823
Guest
Ohhhhh, that makes a lot of sense.
Can we do B-Air to KO out of D-Throw? (as in, is it combo?)
Can we do B-Air to KO out of D-Throw? (as in, is it combo?)
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Q&A Zero Suit Samus- Quick Question, Quick Answer Thread
- Thread starter Remzi
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David Viran
Smash Lord
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Marrow
Speak softly and carry a Thick Club
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Hey there Zamuses. I figured I'd ask here, since I didn't see a matchup thread, but how do Yoshi, Peach, and/or Mii Brawler do against ZSS?
D
Deleted member 189823
Guest
If you don't RAR, I'm assuming you have to turn-around animation and THEN B-Air?
![[SKS]Jarp](/data/avatars/l/326/326202.jpg?1443456825){kind=avatar}
[SKS]Jarp
Smash Rookie
Does first hit fair - - > tech chase boost kick ever work for anyone or am i missing something
Honor
Smash Apprentice
It could be. I'm just seeing it more with Fox than with any other character AND it seems harder to get the combo.
You could definitely be right though.
Otterz
Smash Apprentice
Replace Fair with Bair, but you really want to use a mixture of these. These are all safe moves if spaced correctly and you don't want to limit yourself or become predictable.
Tobi_Whatever
あんたバカァ～！？
Best neutral option is uAir, as it is the most versatile and flexible option. Mix it up with bAir, nAir and zAir.
Remzi
formerly VaBengal
Its funny, frame-cancel nair > jab will actually work, and halt knockback, at 999%. I don't think boost kick is fast enough to catch people before they launch at higher percents, but frame-cancelling does significantly increase the percent range at which you can nair > boost kick.
Dr. Tuen
Smash Lord
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A frame synced neutral air (damage 10%, KBG 80, KB 40) versus Sheik (weight 85, 0% damage) yields 24 hitstun frames. This attack generates 13 hitlag frames, which are shared between the attacker and the opponent.
Normally, ZSS would undergo 13 hitlag frames and 10 landing lag frames. This nearly exhausts all of her advantage, yielding 1 advantage frame, and most certainly your foe will have rocketed off by then.
When frame synced, ZSS experiences 13 hitlag & landing lag frames (as they overlap now). This means that shiek comes out of hit lag the same moment you are able to react. This is why frame synced nair to jab will always work.
To know if this works with boost kick is a tricky beast. Boost kick comes out on frame 4, which in this case allows Sheik to move (via your hit) for 3 frames. The question is: how far does she move in response to your nair? How does that change over different percents? How long is frame synced nair to boost kick viable?
I wish I could answer that quantitatively. At best, we'd have to do it experimentally. I would love to have a better grasp on launch velocity, as that may yield the answer we seek. Until then... lab it up and see what sticks!
Normally, ZSS would undergo 13 hitlag frames and 10 landing lag frames. This nearly exhausts all of her advantage, yielding 1 advantage frame, and most certainly your foe will have rocketed off by then.
When frame synced, ZSS experiences 13 hitlag & landing lag frames (as they overlap now). This means that shiek comes out of hit lag the same moment you are able to react. This is why frame synced nair to jab will always work.
To know if this works with boost kick is a tricky beast. Boost kick comes out on frame 4, which in this case allows Sheik to move (via your hit) for 3 frames. The question is: how far does she move in response to your nair? How does that change over different percents? How long is frame synced nair to boost kick viable?
I wish I could answer that quantitatively. At best, we'd have to do it experimentally. I would love to have a better grasp on launch velocity, as that may yield the answer we seek. Until then... lab it up and see what sticks!
David Viran
Smash Lord
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Well if you land a jab 1 while the opponent is in the air, jab1 -> boost kick is much more reliable. So frame synced nair -> jab1 -> boost kick?
Dr. Tuen
Smash Lord
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Jab 1 produces 1 frame of advantage (21 frames of hitstun, 21st frame is ZSS' FAF). In the air, the two fastest options (I think, I haven't exhausted all aerials) are air dodge (invulnerable frame 2) and some neutral airs (hits frame 3, like Sheik).
However, this is all null when I look at the Nairo video above. It seems after hit lag, Sonic is in hit stun for about 11 frames... then he lands. This seems to stop the hit stun frames and start his landing lag frames (soft landing lag is usually 2 frames, hard landing lag is 4 frames). He rolls immediately after.
So... Uhh. While more research is likely required, my first pass at this says that jab to boost kick is less reliable when the foe is struck in the air. Hmm.
However, this is all null when I look at the Nairo video above. It seems after hit lag, Sonic is in hit stun for about 11 frames... then he lands. This seems to stop the hit stun frames and start his landing lag frames (soft landing lag is usually 2 frames, hard landing lag is 4 frames). He rolls immediately after.
So... Uhh. While more research is likely required, my first pass at this says that jab to boost kick is less reliable when the foe is struck in the air. Hmm.
DblCrest
Smash Journeyman
While my favorite character is Kirby I'm looking for a good character to take care of his more troublesome matchups when I do try to play for keeps. I've been putting in some work with Pika and Greninja lately but I've drifted to Zero Suit Samus every now and then. ( Mobility and orange shorts of course ;D) . I like to be proficient with all kinds of characters in the roster but I've decided to cut things down a bit.
So how does does Zero suit Samus handle Metaknight,Yoshi,Ike and Dedede?
So how does does Zero suit Samus handle Metaknight,Yoshi,Ike and Dedede?
Tobi_Whatever
あんたバカァ～！？
She handles all of them well and completely obliterates D3. ZSS vs D3 might be the most onesided MU in the entire game.
ZSS pretty much needs to be solo mained to be played efficiently though. She requires a lot of maintenance and doesn't really work as pocket character.
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T-Loc
Smash Rookie
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- Jun 14, 2015
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So the smashbros forum just labeled zss as S tier in their monthly user-voted tier list. I could go on about how dumb I think it is for them to host a system of casual player based voting without qualifying restrictions, but what do you guys think about ZSS's place now? Are people just overreacting because of MLG, or did the recent patch really make her S(heik) tier?
Tobi_Whatever
あんたバカァ～！？
She still isn't as good as Sheik but her aerials are kind of dumb now. Borderline broken basically.
What are people's reactionary flowcharts for edgeguards? Find myself wondering if I can improve there when the side B trumps aren't working and the Dsmash options aren't doing the trick. I tend to be unprepared for much else besides catching a roll with Nair, wondering if I'm overcommitting with Dsmash sometimes.
Seems like getup and roll are what people do the vast majority of the time in this situation, I'm much better at covering the roll like you said.
The problem is on people who know when to time their getup option I just wonder if I'm better off staying onstage for the edgeguard. Or at the very least, mixing it up so I might otherwise be able to catch someone who either instantly buffers or times correctly and can normally prevent the trump.
Honor
Smash Apprentice
I find that it's really character dependent. I'll edge guard Fox super aggressively (for example) but will stay onstage against Rosa and Luma and try and make the right read off the ledge. It seems to me that a lot of people mix it up and get off the ledge ASAP because they know we can ledge trump bair them. So we need to read each player and what they tend to do.
pichuthedk
Smash Lord
I've been trying to theory craft up some edge guards for fox because I hate him so much and I was wondering about that whole thing being aggressive however I lack some of the required knowledge XD.
I was not sure if his side b has invincibility only at the start because Obviously most foxes will only go for side b to the ledge.
So i was thinking of trying a Choco wavebounce paralyzer with precision to get a full charged shot at ledge level (via a full hop i suppose from the stage) , Once fox has been hit jump at him -> boost kick for the kill. I guess we could substitute boost kick with flip jump spike if we are in the position and just tether the ledge after.
I am not sure about timing a flip jump from the ledge as the recover.
I am still looking for a main, and am trying out ZSS.
However, I have a several questions:
However, I have a several questions:
- What's the best way to practice accuracy with ZSS's down b? (All I can think of is going into training mode and have the cpu walk/run, then jump, then full on attack).
- Good way to practice up-air to up b combo?
- Best way to practice short hop nair effectively on ZSS?
- combos I should be aware of?
- timing on b-reverse?
- good to use tilt-stick or no?
- approaching options?
- landing options?
Honor
Smash Apprentice
To be honest I think that's over thinking it.
Fox's SideB has a bit of start up lag (not sure on frame data) and I usually try and get out there for a bair which kills him pretty early. If he falls low and tries his UpB I've gotten really good at timing a stage spike. Fox is a fairly close MU for us but once we get him off stage we can give him all kinds of hell.
alexthepony
Smash Apprentice
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- Apr 23, 2015
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- 189
2 questions
how do you escape her up b
and how do you learn combo di with her
how do you escape her up b
and how do you learn combo di with her
It works with a tech chase at low percents, and you don't even need to wait for them to hit the ground if you fast fall the fair at high percents
Cinestra
Smash Rookie
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- May 13, 2015
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- 3
Hi guys, I've been practicing a lot of ZSS since the game first came out, but I've seen a lot of Nairo's gameplay in tournaments so I was curious on how to do a couple of advanced techniques.
1) How do you do the Uair -> Uair -> Up+B? Nairo makes it seems so effortless, but for some reason it's really hard for me to connect the full attack of Up+B after my second Uair. I've tried doing this a lot of times in practice mode and against humans, and the opponent always seems to fly too far away or to DI away from me. Should I just read DI better or something? What should I do in each of the DI reads I have for the opponent and what should I do if they DI away and are way too far away to reach?
2) How do you practice proper spacing of Zair and how should I practice it? I think when I first started playing ZSS I would just use a lot of Nairs, Fairs, laser guns, jabs, and grab reads, so I've never even thought of incoperating the Zair. How should I begin doing that? I see Nairo a lot of times jumping backwards and then falling forwards with the Zair for extended whip length, is there anything like that I should practice doing? Sometimes I see him run off the stage and hit someone with a Zair as well. A lot of times I stop to think why doesn't he just hit him with a Fair? Is it just that Zair is safer and longer reaching?
3) How do you practice landing a Back air against someone in the air? I know I'm not terrible with Back airs because I can land it with Mario, Ike, and even Palutena really easily, but I have a lot of trouble land ZSS back air well. I can land it 100% of the time when I see that they're on a platform of Battlefield, but I feel like I have to be super precise when trying to hit them off stage with a back air. Is there anything I should do to practice it?
4) How do you ledge trump someone with ZSS? I've seen Nairo run off the edge and then Side B in the reverse direction, and then go up when the person grabs the ledge, but what do you do after that? I've tried doing Down -> SH -> Bair really quickly but I can never land it so it feels really unrelaible. How should I practice that? I've even tried praticing in practice mode with really low speed and I can't seem to nail it..
5) What should I be doing in the neutral game? I panic a lot sometimes when a character is always rushing towards me, and just use a lot of lasers, nairs, and jabs (I use grabs for hard reads, not sure if that's really neutral anymore). I've been trying to do the Zair more often. A lot of the times when I'm in the neutral for too long, I feel like I'm losing because I feel like ZSS neutral game isn't very strong, so what should I do to improve on that? I think I might be too grounded because I do a lot of low Nairs, jabs, and stun guns on the ground, but they usually don't lead to too much.
6) How do I practice connecting my combos better? A lot of times when I play ZSS I feel like I'm just hitting the opponent once and then running away again (unless I'm juggling them with Uairs). It's hard for me to visualize a lot of the moves that connect with her because other than her down throw into Uair, I don't feel a ton of guaranteed follow ups because I feel like her moves come out too slow or send her opoonent too far away. What combos should I practice with her?
1) How do you do the Uair -> Uair -> Up+B? Nairo makes it seems so effortless, but for some reason it's really hard for me to connect the full attack of Up+B after my second Uair. I've tried doing this a lot of times in practice mode and against humans, and the opponent always seems to fly too far away or to DI away from me. Should I just read DI better or something? What should I do in each of the DI reads I have for the opponent and what should I do if they DI away and are way too far away to reach?
2) How do you practice proper spacing of Zair and how should I practice it? I think when I first started playing ZSS I would just use a lot of Nairs, Fairs, laser guns, jabs, and grab reads, so I've never even thought of incoperating the Zair. How should I begin doing that? I see Nairo a lot of times jumping backwards and then falling forwards with the Zair for extended whip length, is there anything like that I should practice doing? Sometimes I see him run off the stage and hit someone with a Zair as well. A lot of times I stop to think why doesn't he just hit him with a Fair? Is it just that Zair is safer and longer reaching?
3) How do you practice landing a Back air against someone in the air? I know I'm not terrible with Back airs because I can land it with Mario, Ike, and even Palutena really easily, but I have a lot of trouble land ZSS back air well. I can land it 100% of the time when I see that they're on a platform of Battlefield, but I feel like I have to be super precise when trying to hit them off stage with a back air. Is there anything I should do to practice it?
4) How do you ledge trump someone with ZSS? I've seen Nairo run off the edge and then Side B in the reverse direction, and then go up when the person grabs the ledge, but what do you do after that? I've tried doing Down -> SH -> Bair really quickly but I can never land it so it feels really unrelaible. How should I practice that? I've even tried praticing in practice mode with really low speed and I can't seem to nail it..
5) What should I be doing in the neutral game? I panic a lot sometimes when a character is always rushing towards me, and just use a lot of lasers, nairs, and jabs (I use grabs for hard reads, not sure if that's really neutral anymore). I've been trying to do the Zair more often. A lot of the times when I'm in the neutral for too long, I feel like I'm losing because I feel like ZSS neutral game isn't very strong, so what should I do to improve on that? I think I might be too grounded because I do a lot of low Nairs, jabs, and stun guns on the ground, but they usually don't lead to too much.
6) How do I practice connecting my combos better? A lot of times when I play ZSS I feel like I'm just hitting the opponent once and then running away again (unless I'm juggling them with Uairs). It's hard for me to visualize a lot of the moves that connect with her because other than her down throw into Uair, I don't feel a ton of guaranteed follow ups because I feel like her moves come out too slow or send her opoonent too far away. What combos should I practice with her?
Honor
Smash Apprentice
Watching Nairo can be good and bad. He's head and shoulder over all the other best ZZS mains. I recommend watching VaBengal or Nick Riddle because their easier to relate to/easier to see their thought process.
SH Nair in the neutral is very good when you space it right, so keep using that. Jab is obviously godly.
SH Bair is a little tricky at first. You have to almost SH away from your opponent and then fade back in for the kick itself. You can't SHFF because you'll land before the kick comes out.
I personally think that practice mode at slower speeds is a bad idea because then you have to relearn muscle memory (just my two cents).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjN4cq8_x5E
Edit: You'll see what I mean in this set about SH away and fading back in for the bair.
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Empoleon_master
Smash Cadet
Let's see if this is finally the right place to post this.
I don't know if this is new or something but there's a tiny flash of lightening that happens when ZSS uses her down smash, the position seems to be random. There are 3 positions for the lightening to be in: From just above ZSS to the center of the laser blast, above the center of the laser blast, and from the opposite of the first position I mentioned. I have NO clue if the lightening strikes have any different hit boxes etc or if this is all just aesthetic. I asked in the new member forum and even a forum mod didn't know, if someone that could somehow look into the files or whatever for the laser blast could answer this I would be extremely happy to read it as I'm super curious about it.
I don't know if this is new or something but there's a tiny flash of lightening that happens when ZSS uses her down smash, the position seems to be random. There are 3 positions for the lightening to be in: From just above ZSS to the center of the laser blast, above the center of the laser blast, and from the opposite of the first position I mentioned. I have NO clue if the lightening strikes have any different hit boxes etc or if this is all just aesthetic. I asked in the new member forum and even a forum mod didn't know, if someone that could somehow look into the files or whatever for the laser blast could answer this I would be extremely happy to read it as I'm super curious about it.
Cinestra
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- May 13, 2015
- Messages
- 3
Thanks for the advice! I've been able to land my Bairs a lot better (although it still feels a bit awkward). I like to use SH Nair a lot, but sometimes it feels hard to space properly against short characters (biggest examples I can think of are Mario and Pikachu).
I actually don't really practice in slower speeds at all because yeah I believe that real time is the best way to train your muscle memory, but I wanted to see how I could possibly pull off the move in real time (I wasn't able to hit the move at all after like 30 tries). I tried the move again on Battlefield and Animal crossing and I was able to do it just fine. I actually was practicing on an omega version with long walls at the base of the stage, and I would always accidentally wall jump off of it which would mess me up.
I can definitely see VaBegal's fade backwards and immediate Bairs so I'll try to put usefulness into that. I've never had to do this weird sort of movement option before with a character in smash so it will probalbly take some getting used to. My next question is how do ZSS typically edge guard effectively? I feel like I'm way too predictable when I go off the stage and try hitting back out with another Fair or Bair and I always get air-dodged. I see some players try to feint a Fair or a Bair and then actually go for a down-B kill but I have absolutely no idea how to pull off something like that. Is there a trick to it?
Also what do you do when an enemy is behind you as ZSS? I feel like the most I can really do is run hell away or something. Are there any other better options?
What are some good ways to punish rolls with ZSS? I know that she can hard read some rolls with her grab, but sometimes it's way too risky. Dash attack sometimes feels pretty risky too because it's easily shield grabbed and Nair feels awful when you accidentally go in too close to an opponent.
Thanks for all the help!
honeclawshonedge
Smash Rookie
So I wanna learn ZSS because of her speed and mobility since my main doesn't really have either of those things, but after using a slow-ish character for so long I literally cannot control ZSS because she jumps so high and moves so fast. How long does it usually take to adjust to her agility? I've been practicing with her for just under a week now and I don't see any improvements in my gameplay :/
pichuthedk
Smash Lord
Cinestra
4. The key to that edge trump tech is to not only do the side b tether but to reel in at the right time so you have to wait a minimal ammount of time before you can drop off.
This let's you get the bair easily with a bit of practice best way to look at it is having it become second nature that's why it looks so easy when nairo does it.
In terms of punishing rolls back air and down smash are decent options when you are able to read them (downsmash), when it comes to bair it can sorta be an on reaction thing if you've like jumped at them and they roll behind you or something.
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NickRiddle
#negativeNick
The best way to practice combos/timings is to... just practice it in training mode/against CPUs until you get the timing down, then play people and get used to adjusting to DI.
Combos:
Stuff into uair > up-b
Nair > Flip Kick
D-smash > Flip Kick
Grab followups
Timing on b-reverse? No idea how to answer that.
Tilt-stick is personal preference.
Don't approach.
Mix up your landings like you would with literally any other character... footstooling people can throw off timings, dair, other aerials, nothing, using your movement to mix-up where exactly you land.
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
Record a replay vs. CPUs and upload it using the Wii U
ok i'll do that