Q&A Zero Suit Samus- Quick Question, Quick Answer Thread

[Tobi_Whatever]

Yeah, ZSS is perfect, I agree.
I really only brought out Sheik for certain match ups with CUSTOMS. And that was before the patch.
I don't know if I actually care to switch anymore, Flip Jump is so ****ing stupid I don't even know how I'm meant to lose.

Why even boost kick when you can flip jump?

Because it's slow and punishable

 

[Shaya]

Because it's slow and punishable

Fast enough out of most moves and as a get away, and punished harshly when you mess up, yes. Although most players don't know how, so it's stupidly abusive before the later parts of your tournaments.

I've been labbing it HARD. Thank Based DeLux (inspirational). Although I know Mr.R and Nairo's ZSS' are applying it (although everyone's fear/lack of comfort in it is obvious).

Ever hated how you can't get a punish on the up air frame trap?
Ever disliked lylat cruise and haven't played it since this patch and suddenly realised the glory?
Ever down thrown someone and Decided It was time for them to die? (shorter characters maybe not guaranteed, but everyone tall or wide is generally ****ed).
Ever perfect landing (or mid percent) naired and combo'd dash rar back air out of it and didn't kill them?
Ever had the burning desire to yolonoscope a deep off stage chase knowing survival (because bounce from hitting something) and victory would only come at hitting them but everything else would seal your fate? What? It's actually unavoidable for them? YOU JUST NEED TO HAVE FIGHTING SPIRIT!
If I were to make a parody/comedy video I think it would be a rip off of the game's tutorial except "Flip Jump" doing everything,.

P.S. I exaggerate in nearly all things worthy of excitement, but I'm genuinely digging this move as something not fair/balanced in the slightest; and I'm sick of boost kick RCO and/or drop outs. It's basically hyper bouncing fish. I would recommend all our children to spend everything breathing hour mastering this move but holding back in tournament until after Lucas comes out, just in case (I'll be fine, no one watches Australian tournaments anyway).

Also in other news I think I discovered a way to hit low characters on the ground like Pikachu with forward air. The maximum reach of the second strike just under her foot reaches lower than her leg shows. I got it once #_#, it did perfect landing too.

 

[Octavium]

Snip

Lmao that was honestly pretty entertaining, I gotta be honest though, although we feel pretty vulnerable with that Flip Jump endlag.

It seems to take a PhD in smashing to properly punish it, it took hundreds of friendlies for my friends to learn to consistently punish it, just because they got so used to fighting Zamus.

I don't really have much trouble punishing it, though Cpt. Falcon's dash speed and dash grab are ridiculous and Zamus's tether grab covers the landing very well xD

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Fast enough out of most moves and as a get away, and punished harshly when you mess up, yes. Although most players don't know how, so it's stupidly abusive before the later parts of your tournaments.

I've been labbing it HARD. Thank Based DeLux (inspirational). Although I know Mr.R and Nairo's ZSS' are applying it (although everyone's fear/lack of comfort in it is obvious).

Ever hated how you can't get a punish on the up air frame trap?
Ever disliked lylat cruise and haven't played it since this patch and suddenly realised the glory?
Ever down thrown someone and Decided It was time for them to die? (shorter characters maybe not guaranteed, but everyone tall or wide is generally ****ed).
Ever perfect landing (or mid percent) naired and combo'd dash rar back air out of it and didn't kill them?
Ever had the burning desire to yolonoscope a deep off stage chase knowing survival (because bounce from hitting something) and victory would only come at hitting them but everything else would seal your fate? What? It's actually unavoidable for them? YOU JUST NEED TO HAVE FIGHTING SPIRIT!
If I were to make a parody/comedy video I think it would be a rip off of the game's tutorial except "Flip Jump" doing everything,.

P.S. I exaggerate in nearly all things worthy of excitement, but I'm genuinely digging this move as something not fair/balanced in the slightest; and I'm sick of boost kick RCO and/or drop outs. It's basically hyper bouncing fish. I would recommend all our children to spend everything breathing hour mastering this move but holding back in tournament until after Lucas comes out, just in case (I'll be fine, no one watches Australian tournaments anyway).

Also in other news I think I discovered a way to hit low characters on the ground like Pikachu with forward air. The maximum reach of the second strike just under her foot reaches lower than her leg shows. I got it once #_#, it did perfect landing too.

I'm not able to see that at all. A good reallife example for your dSpecial stuff would be great.
Hitting noobs doesn't count.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Fast enough out of most moves and as a get away, and punished harshly when you mess up, yes. Although most players don't know how, so it's stupidly abusive before the later parts of your tournaments.

I've been labbing it HARD. Thank Based DeLux (inspirational). Although I know Mr.R and Nairo's ZSS' are applying it (although everyone's fear/lack of comfort in it is obvious).

Ever hated how you can't get a punish on the up air frame trap?
Ever disliked lylat cruise and haven't played it since this patch and suddenly realised the glory?
Ever down thrown someone and Decided It was time for them to die? (shorter characters maybe not guaranteed, but everyone tall or wide is generally ****ed).
Ever perfect landing (or mid percent) naired and combo'd dash rar back air out of it and didn't kill them?
Ever had the burning desire to yolonoscope a deep off stage chase knowing survival (because bounce from hitting something) and victory would only come at hitting them but everything else would seal your fate? What? It's actually unavoidable for them? YOU JUST NEED TO HAVE FIGHTING SPIRIT!
If I were to make a parody/comedy video I think it would be a rip off of the game's tutorial except "Flip Jump" doing everything,.

P.S. I exaggerate in nearly all things worthy of excitement, but I'm genuinely digging this move as something not fair/balanced in the slightest; and I'm sick of boost kick RCO and/or drop outs. It's basically hyper bouncing fish. I would recommend all our children to spend everything breathing hour mastering this move but holding back in tournament until after Lucas comes out, just in case (I'll be fine, no one watches Australian tournaments anyway).

Also in other news I think I discovered a way to hit low characters on the ground like Pikachu with forward air. The maximum reach of the second strike just under her foot reaches lower than her leg shows. I got it once #_#, it did perfect landing too.

I freaking love flip kick. I use it to cover ledge options, and my local community has picked up on my use of the term "Hype Kick." Cause I get so hyped! I spike people to death a handful of times every time I go to these local events. It's the best! And with knowledge about DI improving, boost kick setups are harder to come by... though I still get those sometimes too. But someone trying to take an edge? That happens plenty.

Hype kick for life!

 

[Octavium]

I use it to cover ledge options... spike people to death a handful of times every time I go to these local events...

Feels good man...

 

[Shaya]

I'm not able to see that at all. A good reallife example for your dSpecial stuff would be great.
Hitting noobs doesn't count.

I'll have to make it so (apparently the smash4 replays from yesterday got deleted in transit, damn melee players :<).
But you can genuinely flip jump as a follow up in a lot of situations. If you haven't implemented this into your game yet you need to look into it. There are combos out there waiting to end in a kick that if near a ledge/etc is killing at 40% and is otherwise a 14% damage move that kills very early (rage with this is disgusting).
If you catch/react to the air dodge at near point blank with a jump on you, jump->flip jump forward maneuvering backwards into a kick, the hit frames last an extended period and you can somewhat "hover" around a certain area for a solid period of time with said kick.
Lylat Cruise seems to cancel moves less often (?) but at the same time no longer 100% gimps our recovery or our ledge get up options. It's worth learning IMO.

The ticket to this move is not procing the automatic footstool jump (when you don't want it to). As long as you can do this (not trying to say it's easy) you're essentially dealing with something incredibly versatile. I'm not sure if players have ever put time into practicing Sheik, but if you feel you've "mastered" bouncing fish, Flip Jump is the next level up with very similar applicability.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I'll have to make it so (apparently the smash4 replays from yesterday got deleted in transit, damn melee players :<).
But you can genuinely flip jump as a follow up in a lot of situations. If you haven't implemented this into your game yet you need to look into it. There are combos out there waiting to end in a kick that if near a ledge/etc is killing at 40% and is otherwise a 14% damage move that kills very early (rage with this is disgusting).
If you catch/react to the air dodge at near point blank with a jump on you, jump->flip jump forward maneuvering backwards into a kick, the hit frames last an extended period and you can somewhat "hover" around a certain area for a solid period of time with said kick.
Lylat Cruise seems to cancel moves less often (?) but at the same time no longer 100% gimps our recovery or our ledge get up options. It's worth learning IMO.

The ticket to this move is not procing the automatic footstool jump (when you don't want it to). As long as you can do this (not trying to say it's easy) you're essentially dealing with something incredibly versatile. I'm not sure if players have ever put time into practicing Sheik, but if you feel you've "mastered" bouncing fish, Flip Jump is the next level up with very similar applicability.

Could you post some example combos please? I only know of nAir > Flip Kick and bAir > Flip Kick and the usual stun stuff.

 

[Lus146]

I do not have a Wii U yet so I play on my 3ds. Sometimes, scratch that, most of the time when I throw out a zair to recover it will do a nair instead. Is it just a dumb input error on the 3ds or am I doing something wrong?

 

[Octavium]

I do not have a Wii U yet so I play on my 3ds. Sometimes, scratch that, most of the time when I throw out a zair to recover it will do a nair instead. Is it just a dumb input error on the 3ds or am I doing something wrong?

I've never heard or had that problem before. This may not fix your problem but I hugely recommend recovering with Side-b as a tether, yes it has a bit more lag, but most of the time that extra lag is negligible. I doubt you'll be fighting top players on a 3ds who can consistently punish the Side-b tether recovery if you do it quickly, top players play wii U exclusively.

But its weird to hear you're having such an issue, assuming you don't accidently trigger an aerial when Zair-ing, or if your Z button ain't a grab button.

Edit: You should get a wii U though, so much better and no hand cramps.

 

[David Viran]

I remember this happening to me when doing Zair before. I think it happened after being hit. I don't recall side having lag when tethering.

 

[Octavium]

I remember this happening to me when doing Zair before. I think it happened after being hit. I don't recall side having lag when tethering.

I believe the lag frames are actually when ledge snapping (23 frames? Side-B), and 7 frames Zair. I'll need to go and take a look into it again.

Edit: I also think Zair grabs the ledge slightly faster, but I'm really unsure if thats true or not.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

I believe the lag frames are actually when ledge snapping (23 frames? Side-B), and 7 frames Zair. I'll need to go and take a look into it again.

Edit: I also think Zair grabs the ledge slightly faster, but I'm really unsure if thats true or not.

Oh man, really? Today I learned. I like using side B since it can turnaround... and this discussion shows there may be input difficulties with zair. I'm also curious to see if they have the same tether range. I'm back to my Wii U tonight, so I'll add that to the list of things to check out.

 

[NickRiddle]

I do not have a Wii U yet so I play on my 3ds. Sometimes, scratch that, most of the time when I throw out a zair to recover it will do a nair instead. Is it just a dumb input error on the 3ds or am I doing something wrong?

You cannot zair out of tumble.

 

[David Viran]

I believe the lag frames are actually when ledge snapping (23 frames? Side-B), and 7 frames Zair. I'll need to go and take a look into it again.

Edit: I also think Zair grabs the ledge slightly faster, but I'm really unsure if thats true or not.

Side b has the same ledge frame advantage as Zair because that's how you tether trump.

 

[Octavium]

Side b has the same ledge frame advantage as Zair because that's how you tether trump.

Yeah nevermind what I said, I thought Side-b wasn't considered a ''true tether'' when snapping on the ledge, since you can do it out of tumble and its not a Zair. Her Up-b/down-b has ~23 frames when snapping, but not her Side-b.

Theres no reason for using Zair when recovering. Side-b trumps it in every way.

 

[David Viran]

Side b is the true tether.

 

[Lus146]

You cannot zair out of tumble.

Oh okay thanks!

 

[Vermillion]

Could someone post the link of the thread that explained Ledge Cancel using Flip Jump ? I read it some time ago and can't seem to find it.

 

[BatShark]

Does anyone have extensive doubles experience with ZSS in this iteration? Was kind of curious if anyone had some thoughts as to the roles she filled there and observations on what might need to be tweaked to best work with someone else. (I realize these answers would be highly partner dependent but given that I'm pretty fresh to dubs in general, I'd be happy with generalizations for now.)

@ NickRiddle looking in your direction for obvious reasons!

 

[Shaya]

I player either ZSS or G&W in doubles usually. She feels best when things are chaotic but at the same time have faith in your team partner not getting hit by you/getting in your way. You can slow down the game considerably even against two opponents with back up in mind while using Zair or Flip Jump. Her mobility allows her to get a hit on one enemy and then immediately run to help aid your partner (i.e. the optimal way to play doubles in general). Precision requirements amp up a bit to be successful but you can rely on your partner to cover a lot of holes in her game play (shields, needing to reach jump apex)

Could you post some example combos please? I only know of nAir > Flip Kick and bAir > Flip Kick and the usual stun stuff.

Although I can never get it to register as combo in training mode, up air and down throw in practice seem to work out very well. Fair also is workable. It was from me watching DeLux's recent tournament sets where he gets up air flip kicks that spearheaded my wowness.

 

[DeLux]

You guys should look into Bair baits using flip jump on followups at higher percents. For example, after Nair/Bthrow/Dthow you can flip jump to scare your opponent into air dodging since they have to respect the savagery, and then you DJ Bair them since they didn't respect the savantry. It helps if you jump so you have the height to make the magic happen though, kinda similar how it's easier to get the spike from flip kick on a Dsmash followup if you jump first.

Alternatively you can at the more middle percents where flip jump kick is close enough to work but not quite guaranteed, just don't do anything, wait for them to air dodge the anticipated flip jump and chase their drift and kick. Just don't mess that one up since it has caused me to SD many a time lol

Speaking of flip jump techs, does anyone else have issues buffering nair instead of Bair out of flip jump cancel on a platform? I want to use it to bait for Bair, but I keep getting Nair which isn't as tactically useful since I'm doing the cancel trying to get my opponent to chase me which puts them in Bair why 2016 positioning rather than it being a time to unleash the kraken.

IDK Just some thoughts

 

[NickRiddle]

Does anyone have extensive doubles experience with ZSS in this iteration? Was kind of curious if anyone had some thoughts as to the roles she filled there and observations on what might need to be tweaked to best work with someone else. (I realize these answers would be highly partner dependent but given that I'm pretty fresh to dubs in general, I'd be happy with generalizations for now.)

@ NickRiddle looking in your direction for obvious reasons!

Honestly, I don't really do doubles in this game often.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Side b is the true tether.

This so much

 

[BatShark]

Honestly, I don't really do doubles in this game often.

Womp womp. Oh well, thanks anyhow. Anyone else have experiences here?

 

[Jaxas]

Does anyone have extensive doubles experience with ZSS in this iteration? Was kind of curious if anyone had some thoughts as to the roles she filled there and observations on what might need to be tweaked to best work with someone else. (I realize these answers would be highly partner dependent but given that I'm pretty fresh to dubs in general, I'd be happy with generalizations for now.)

@ NickRiddle looking in your direction for obvious reasons!

While I don't have extensive ZSS doubles knowledge (Sheik is my main, and she's amazing in doubles too, so...), I have used her quite a bit; here's my basic thoughts:

ZSS has a lot of characteristics that make her extremely good in doubles; kill power, range, and the most important one, mobility.
Mobility is hugely important in doubles, even more than in singles, because that way if your teammate is in trouble you can get over there and bail them out; projectiles are helpful here as well. ZSS specifically has Flip Kick, which lets her both move quickly and get out of whatever situation she's in to go help, which is great.

ZSS also has some pretty solid kill power, however it's a bit less useable than in Singles. Bair is as great as ever, but her 2 main kill moves (Boost Kick and Flip Kick Kick/Spike) aren't as good in doubles because you can get punished hard by the opponent.
As long as your teammate is covering you you can close stocks early, but if it ever comes down to a 2v1 situation (unless you catch both opponents with one move), try and go for Bair instead of your normal kill options.

 

[BatShark]

That's actually what I've noticed too, Bair is crazy good there. I've had really nice games where I comment at the end that 90% of what I did was just space and combo w/Bair, plus punish and save, and it worked out nicely.

Good to hear other accounts of this.

 

[SwagyShiek5044]

Whats a good secondary for a zss main

 

[DeLux]

Whats a good secondary for a zss main

Sheik

 

[Shaya]

Basically pick someone with a working grab, maybe the ZSS matches prior will condition them to shield, always. Sheik is a smart choice due to similarities (speed, range, combo-ability, weight, good recoveries, dominant horizontal tools) and their contrasts (force people to approach you instead, have a grab) .

 

[DeLux]

Basically pick someone with a working grab, maybe the ZSS matches prior will condition them to shield, always. Sheik is a smart choice due to similarities (speed, range, combo-ability, weight, good recoveries, dominant horizontal tools) and their contrasts (force people to approach you instead, have a grab) .

Sheik also covers all of ZSS's bad MU's since she doesn't have bad MU's

 

[Shaya]

SHEIK SUCKS
*ZeRo and K9 experience based opinion*

Doesn't have hardly as much of a hard time against Pikachu and Olimar though, so, yeah. No single secondary is going to be giving Sheik much trouble with that in mind. I'm not sure how Sonic does in either of those two match ups but has it "too easy, piece of cake" [not exactly] against Sheik and pisses people off a lot more on average. Warming up with him makes controlling ZSS feel easier~

 

[Muffin!]

I got a question about reverse flip kicks. What inputs do you guys use in order to flip kick in the direction opposite you're facing? I used to think you just had to get the right angle on the joystick to do it, but played with it in training and noticed the angle is pretty fickle. After more testing I noticed I could consistently do it by inputting the joystick straight down, and then rolling it in the direction I want to flip kick. By doing this, I noticed I would flipkick when the joystick was at the 45 degree angle whereas if I go straight to the 45 degree instead of rolling I use the plasma whip instead of flip kick.

So I guess my question is if the secret to reverse flip kick is to roll the joystick, or am I still just not getting the precise angle right?

 

[Shaya]

In the first few frames of most moves, if you input the opposite direction you are facing you'll reverse it. After some point it will start using those inputs for maneuvering instead of reversing it.

As speed of the input is of essence, I would say it's less of a "roll" and more of like a sudden flick. I'll admit though that I don't consistently attempt b-reversing flip jump because it's not as easy to do as most other moves I find; turning around first on the ground or RARing it (because down-b from a jump allows you to act before landing with no kick/footstool) is just how I generally opt to go about it.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I got a question about reverse flip kicks. What inputs do you guys use in order to flip kick in the direction opposite you're facing? I used to think you just had to get the right angle on the joystick to do it, but played with it in training and noticed the angle is pretty fickle. After more testing I noticed I could consistently do it by inputting the joystick straight down, and then rolling it in the direction I want to flip kick. By doing this, I noticed I would flipkick when the joystick was at the 45 degree angle whereas if I go straight to the 45 degree instead of rolling I use the plasma whip instead of flip kick.

So I guess my question is if the secret to reverse flip kick is to roll the joystick, or am I still just not getting the precise angle right?

I just input diagonally down in the direction I want to go.
It's pretty easy to do with a gc controller because of the octagonal gate.

 

[pichuthedk]

@ DeLux about the flip jump cancel stuff it kinda looks like it will just reapply your last input based on how you slide your kick.

For example if you do the flip kick so that your barely sliding on the ground for less then a frame, while you did this you were holding forward for distance and pressed b for the kick she will land and pretty much immediately be off the edge and start side b'ing( fair if you used a instead of b)

Another example would be doing it that way while holding down and pressing b you get instant flip jumps which can convert if your lucky. .. I mean I've done flip jump cancel which resulted in instant flip jump and I just "yolonoscopped" a stock off someone.
maybe try using the analog stick and for the direction aND use the kick so that you actually spend time sliding off the edge so you can use your c stick to bair.

 

[Muffin!]

I just input diagonally down in the direction I want to go.
It's pretty easy to do with a gc controller because of the octagonal gate.

Did some more testing with it. It definitely won't do a reverse flip kick if you just push the stick to the octagonal groove, that will just pull out the plasma whip. The sweet spot seems to be between the diagonal groove and the bottom groove. If you go from the bottom groove and then roll it to the diagonal groove though it will flip kick in that direction rather than plasma whip

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Did some more testing with it. It definitely won't do a reverse flip kick if you just push the stick to the octagonal groove, that will just pull out the plasma whip. The sweet spot seems to be between the diagonal groove and the bottom groove. If you go from the bottom groove and then roll it to the diagonal groove though it will flip kick in that direction rather than plasma whip

Just tested it to check if it's just my muscle memory and I definitely don't do anything else than pressing the stick into the groove.
I can even crawl backwards while just holding the stick and I will do the flip when I press special.

 

[Muffin!]

Just tested it to check if it's just my muscle memory and I definitely don't do anything else than pressing the stick into the groove.
I can even crawl backwards while just holding the stick and I will do the flip when I press special.

Oh I can do that as well. Here's what I noticed from my testing:
If I go perfectly diagonal and B at the same time it's plasma whip.
If I go perfectly diagonal and wait a few frames and B it's flip kick in the direction of my joystick.
If I go straight down and roll to diagonal then B it's flip kick in the direction i rolled.
if I go instantly down between the diagonal and bottom groove it's flip kick in that direction.

So yeah, the angle you have to press is fickle and not constant.

Edit: In addition if you hold forward and roll to the diagonal it does plasma whip. It seems the initial joystick input determines the move.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Oh I can do that as well. Here's what I noticed from my testing:
If I go perfectly diagonal and B at the same time it's plasma whip.
If I go perfectly diagonal and wait a few frames and B it's flip kick in the direction of my joystick.
If I go straight down and roll to diagonal then B it's flip kick in the direction i rolled.
if I go instantly down between the diagonal and bottom groove it's flip kick in that direction.

So yeah, the angle you have to press is fickle and not constant.

Edit: In addition if you hold forward and roll to the diagonal it does plasma whip. It seems the initial joystick input determines the move.

Your joystick must be broken or something because I just rapidly press the stick into the groove and I get the dSpecial. I'm not even precise or anything, I literally just smack it in.