Q&A Zero Suit Samus- Quick Question, Quick Answer Thread

[kobefox2485]

Have a hard time playing against Jigglypuff and some Kirby. They are hard to hit and Puff hits so damn hard for a little pink ball. I'm sure it's lack of playing those matchups, but are there any tips?

 

[NeoSeth]

Have a hard time playing against Jigglypuff and some Kirby. They are hard to hit and Puff hits so damn hard for a little pink ball. I'm sure it's lack of playing those matchups, but are there any tips?

Depends on the player, but generally most Puffs are gonna float around you and try to bait you into a move that they will weave around and punish you for. When I play Puff, I crouch/crawl when they get close (and start mixing it up with short hops once they catch on) to make my hitbox closer to the ground so they have to work a bit harder with their timing. Utilt out of crouch is also great anti-air against them, but be aware because they'll punish hard if you miss. I also zone with zair and Nair to keep them at a safe distance. And the occassional running up smash to catch them in the air, but I'm very careful with that because it's such a committed move. Jiggs will die early vertically, so these moves will also KO once you catch her. I don't UpB too much, since Puff can get out before the final hit pretty easily, but UpB out of shield can seal a game nicely. I don't have much experience with Kirby, but from what I've seen I think their game is more ground-based. Get good at timing your Nairs to hit them when they're crouching on the ground (This goes for Jigglypuff as well), which will vastly improve your neutral game with them, and also use your superior range to keep them away. The anti-air stuff I mentioned for Puff will also work against Kirby.

I also have a question for anyone who can answer it: I've heard that with some characters (Kirby was the example I was given), inputting a Uair right before you hit the ground can give you less landing lag than just a plain landing. Does this work with ZSS? I've been testing it but I want to make sure it's not a placebo or something before I really spend a bunch of time with it.

 

[David Viran]

Depends on the player, but generally most Puffs are gonna float around you and try to bait you into a move that they will weave around and punish you for. When I play Puff, I crouch/crawl when they get close (and start mixing it up with short hops once they catch on) to make my hitbox closer to the ground so they have to work a bit harder with their timing. Utilt out of crouch is also great anti-air against them, but be aware because they'll punish hard if you miss. I also zone with zair and Nair to keep them at a safe distance. And the occassional running up smash to catch them in the air, but I'm very careful with that because it's such a committed move. Jiggs will die early vertically, so these moves will also KO once you catch her. I don't UpB too much, since Puff can get out before the final hit pretty easily, but UpB out of shield can seal a game nicely. I don't have much experience with Kirby, but from what I've seen I think their game is more ground-based. Get good at timing your Nairs to hit them when they're crouching on the ground (This goes for Jigglypuff as well), which will vastly improve your neutral game with them, and also use your superior range to keep them away. The anti-air stuff I mentioned for Puff will also work against Kirby.

I also have a question for anyone who can answer it: I've heard that with some characters (Kirby was the example I was given), inputting a Uair right before you hit the ground can give you less landing lag than just a plain landing. Does this work with ZSS? I've been testing it but I want to make sure it's not a placebo or something before I really spend a bunch of time with it.

Less than just landing? Uh I don't think you ever can get less landing lag than that even auto cancels have that same lag. Zss's uair has 9 frames of landing lag tied for least in the game.

 

[DeLux]

I think people don't make a distinction on "landing lag" and "aerial landing lag" and "air dodge landing lag" etc, which leads to the possible confusion you're talking about.

 

[Shadow23]

How do you double flip jump off ledge?

 

[Vermillion]

Side b have more range then zair? @ David Viran

I'm thinking he said this because Side B can be used both ways, whereas zair can only be thrown forward; allowing for various things, like recovering during an edgeguard or simply running towards the ledge and using the tether to grab it instantly.

 

[NickRiddle]

How do you double flip jump off ledge?

Input a jump.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Is there a thread with basic ZSS combos/set ups/techs ?

Worst matchups for ZSS ?

When to use nair, and should I use it to approach? How should I be approaching in general?

 

[Shaya]

1. Paralyzer and Down Smash, very basic, do whatever you want from them.
Down Throw: Every aerial action, certain DI will give you fairs/rar bairs, others will give you up air (and/or boost kick)
Ftilt, nair, fair (first hit or both), up air, Jab at higher percent on certain character types (Mewtwo gets so ****ed oh my god).

2. Probably something between Diddy, Olimar, Pikachu or Megaman. Definitely nothing unwinnable or even worse than 40:60 IMO.

3. Approach with not approaching until they do something that involves attacking or moving.
Abuse your mobility, better range and trap set ups, people who are locked onto certain defensive choices should just be stalked rather than "pressured with attacks". Zair is really good for poking.
Nair is good for outspacing attacks or fast falling with. It's good if your opponent let's you jump AND reach your apex, otherwise it's going to get you punished.

ZSS's "hole" in her aggressive game play stems from the set up of said actions. Jumping and usually wanting to fast fall aerials so after her apex, paralyzer and down smash being reactable charge times. If people are taking that 20-30 frames to move in "for free" and hold shield so the whole "outspacing with nair thing" is mute you will need to adjust your game play choices immediately.
(It's funny to me because it's the EXACT same hole people wanted to abuse to get in on Marth in Brawl)

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

wasnt marths fair like -4 on shield tho lol

 

[pichuthedk]

I'm thinking he said this because Side B can be used both ways, whereas zair can only be thrown forward; allowing for various things, like recovering during an edgeguard or simply running towards the ledge and using the tether to grab it instantly.

Nah I know that part just curious because you never know nintendo....
I just want to start a movement for all tethers to get the option to zair+up direction so that we can actually use the tether more efficiently...

Kind of a pain in the ass to be like "whelp he's gonna spike me as soon as I boost kick to the ledge..." having a high Angled tether like she did in brawl would just be sweet.
Being able to zair + up will give us so much more Shinanegans when recovering low.

 

[ForteSP]

what's the proper DI on the Zero Suit up special?

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

what's the proper DI on the Zero Suit up special?

The one the ZSS player doesn't expect.

 

[Shaya]

wasnt marths fair like -4 on shield tho lol

On a fast fallen shield executed perfectly it was -3 untippered and -7 tippered.
Our solution to that conundrum, thanks to Mikeneko was just being more reactive and opting for going for the auto cancel window.
As I said, there's still the fact that getting in the air and doing an auto cancelled or fast fallen fair required well over 20 frames start up. People apt in the match up looked for this to succeed, just as they're doing so with ZSS using dsmash or paralyzer too close or jumping for zair/fast fall nair.

ZSS fast fallen up air is probably similar safety to marth's fair in Brawl but is harder to hit with and is still in the "needs to be fast fallen".
Sh air dodge into up air comes out though which is really really good for dealing with people who are trying to read the jump to an immediate punish. You can't overly abuse this though.

 

[David Viran]

On a fast fallen shield executed perfectly it was -3 untippered and -7 tippered.
Our solution to that conundrum, thanks to Mikeneko was just being more reactive and opting for going for the auto cancel window.
As I said, there's still the fact that getting in the air and doing an auto cancelled or fast fallen fair required well over 20 frames start up. People apt in the match up looked for this to succeed, just as they're doing so with ZSS using dsmash or paralyzer too close or jumping for zair/fast fall nair.

ZSS fast fallen up air is probably similar safety to marth's fair in Brawl but is harder to hit with and is still in the "needs to be fast fallen".
Sh air dodge into up air comes out though which is really really good for dealing with people who are trying to read the jump to an immediate punish. You can't overly abuse this though.

From some crap I did in training mode with the 1/4 speed stop mode after hitting sheild with uair the time the opponent could move after sheild drop was the same time you could act after uair. Same goes for Bair.

 

[Shaya]

Sh airdodge bair also works but I feel like there's this awkward position it results in that doesn't let you easily hit with it really close to the ground. Bah humbug.

 

[Blubolouis]

I have little experience and lots of trouble against zss with all my characters; rather than reverse match-up advice (though i'd take it, i play sheik and ness), could I have some input on what ZSS' weaknesses are, when she's vulnerable and what should be respected etc? I basically have no idea, and upB and downB are killing me in every sense of the word.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Yeah okay but such a fair is not entirely reactable - marth can mix it up and fair halfway through the setup. Zss has to deal with reactable startup lag lol

 

[NickRiddle]

I have little experience and lots of trouble against zss with all my characters; rather than reverse match-up advice (though i'd take it, i play sheik and ness), could I have some input on what ZSS' weaknesses are, when she's vulnerable and what should be respected etc? I basically have no idea, and upB and downB are killing me in every sense of the word.

She cannot attack while rising in a jump, and her grab is VERY slow.
Abuse those two things.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

She cannot attack while rising in a jump, and her grab is VERY slow.
Abuse those two things.

W8, what do you mean by she cannot attack while rising in a jump?
I do that all the time with bAir. Or do you mean a hitbox low enough to hit grounded opponents while rising?

 

[Shaya]

Yeah okay but such a fair is not entirely reactable - marth can mix it up and fair halfway through the setup. Zss has to deal with reactable startup lag lol

Never denied she's more restrictive.

W8, what do you mean by she cannot attack while rising in a jump?
I do that all the time with bAir. Or do you mean a hitbox low enough to hit grounded opponents while rising?

Obviously. Her air vs air is basically unmatched, that wouldn't be the problem and most characters don't want to let it be their problem.
But otherwise, OBVIOUSLY SHE CAN DOWN AIR AT ANY POINT OF HER JUMP. NickRiddle exposed for fraud.

 

[David Viran]

I'm pretty sure I heard before that her rise speed from her jump is fastest in the game.

 

[Shaya]

It's definitely quite fast, but that's probably a lot to do with the fact she jumps very high as well.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Never denied she's more restrictive.

Was just commenting on the comparison, but yeah we gucci.

And yeah, ZSS Falco and Sheik were the top few in Brawl, not sure about this game.

So how do we handle the Yoshi MU? I've beaten Yoshi's who weren't good at the MU, but not really good ones. I figured out that you have a stupid 50/50 in neutral at certain distances where if he throws an egg you can downB on reaction and if he throws it at an arc to hit your standing position you punish, but if he throws it predicting your downB you hit him.
Seems that you have to respect him a lot; that super armor second jump sometimes feels a bit like a free pass back onto the stage esp considering our (lacking) grab. Though on the other hand, we have the tools to **** with him on the ledge and gimp the guy (zair, downB kicks because of predictable upB/DJ trajectory).

Figured out that jump-back Zair can outspace his DJ nair back on stage from ledge but you're often stuck getting 3% and having it super armored.
Overall though, his DA is great at catching our landings, juggling him is hard with his downB, Dair, reverse nB, and DJ. We don't handle Egg Camping well (but with correct spacing downB and (if Yoshi spaces horribly) Zair can beat it) either, so what's left?

 

[NickRiddle]

Ignore the sound desync and do this a lot.

 

[David Viran]

The Yoshi MU was one of the few MU's we actually kind of went over. Eggs can be just straight out maneuvered. I don't see how his DJ is a get out of jail free card because It can put him above you with no jump. Uair I'm pretty sure can beat dair and down b if spaced properly.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

His size and weight is also nice for us, has a lot of combo potential.
Some of his hitboxes are downright nasty though and his DA is pretty strong.

 

[Gombi]

How do you recover from low with ZSS ?? up b is insanely bad for that

 

[David Viran]

How do you recover from low with ZSS ?? up b is insanely bad for that

Up b isn't that bad. You can use down b and the intangibleilty frames overlap with the invincibility frames from the ledge and tether works from pretty far under the ledge.

 

[Blubolouis]

Thanks for the answer @ NickRiddle

 

[ForteSP]

The one the ZSS player doesn't expect.

unhelpful, lol. I know you can DI out of the multi hit, but if you get hit by the final kick...

 

[David Viran]

unhelpful, lol. I know you can DI out of the multi hit, but if you get hit by the final kick...

Actually that is spot on for falling out of it and you want to hold down on the final hit from center stage and down and in if closer to the ledge.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

unhelpful, lol. I know you can DI out of the multi hit, but if you get hit by the final kick...

Sorry to break it to you but it's the only correct answer. You can't DI out of it if the ZSS player reacts fast enough. It's a mind game.

 

[Megamang]

Sorry to break it to you but it's the only correct answer. You can't DI out of it if the ZSS player reacts fast enough. It's a mind game.

So you can influence the Boost Kick once you're already hitting?


How should one go about this? Match their DI?

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

So you can influence the Boost Kick once you're already hitting?


How should one go about this? Match their DI?

Pretty much. Test it in training mode without hitting someone. uSpecial and press left, uSpecial and press right. You will see the difference pretty clearly.

 

[ForteSP]

Pretty much. Test it in training mode without hitting someone. uSpecial and press left, uSpecial and press right. You will see the difference pretty clearly.

You aren't understanding what i'm asking.

You get hit by the full attack. What's the optimal DI to avoid going off the top of the screen with the final kick. That's what I'm asking. With the best DI it hits more horizontally than vertically.

 

[David Viran]

You aren't understanding what i'm asking.

You get hit by the full attack. What's the optimal DI to avoid going off the top of the screen with the final kick. That's what I'm asking. With the best DI it hits more horizontally than vertically.

I already told you hold down if from the center and down and in if hit near the ledge.

 

[ForteSP]

I already told you hold down if from the center and down and in if hit near the ledge.

Oh weird. I didn't get a notification telling me you had quoted my post. Only the guy after you.

 

[Shaya]

My testing just yesterday because of David Viran rebuking my "kills Mario at like 140%" (I MEANT POST-PERCENT GOD DAMMIT).

Highest percent/survival I could get was from holding down and very very light holding in too. If you hold in too much you'll see yourself going straight up instead of horizontal and die. It's the type of tap that may not actually count in the DI-meter but probably helps how quickly you start to alleviate knock back from natural drift control (so holding in earlier is better as long as "in" isn't being read as your DI when knockback comes).

 

[David Viran]

At least now you know for sure.