Zelda's Matchups (please sticky)

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I'm a sub-pro Zelda player. I'm quite proficient, but I'm not good enough to make this list on my own. As such I'll be drawing upon the entirety of the Zelda boards.

It's quite naked now, but I'll update this post constantly though as long as I can get the feedback for it.



Large Advantage in favour of Zelda:
King Dedede

Advantage in favour of Zelda:


Roughly Even:
Meta Knight
Olimar

Disadvantage for Zelda:
Marth
Game & Watch
Lucas
Ness

Large Disadvantage for Zelda:
nobody has a large advantage on zelda.

 

[xNinjaOfChaosx]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=157979

Pretty good chart.

 

[popsofctown]

Olimar is a hard counter to Zelda, I already disagreed with you in another thread on this though, so I'm not going to beat a dead horse and argue why.

Zelda is either neutral or soft counter to Lucario. My friend trained Lucario for a long time

 

[SinkingHigher]

lol bad chart, nvm.

 

[sFoster]

why do you think pit is at a disadvantage?

 

[Aeyr]

Personally I don't see olimar as a large disadvantage...he's so easy to gimp. XD

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=157979

Pretty good chart.

Do not mention this chart again in this thread... only reason I say this is because it's supposed to be thew charcter boards which feed the matchups into the chart... not vice versa... if we justr suck the data from this chart, nothing will get accomplished.

Olimar is a hard counter to Zelda, I already disagreed with you in another thread on this though, so I'm not going to beat a dead horse and argue why.

Zelda is either neutral or soft counter to Lucario. My friend trained Lucario for a long time

Zelda seems neutral Vs. Lucario... maybe even soft counter... I'll agree. No way olimar is a hard counter to zelda. nothing about olimar has that kind of an advantage over zelda. I'd argure h's only neutral, not even a soft counter, but there's no way that he's a hard counter to zelda.

(check post above for entire chart)

I looked at your post. I found enough problems that I thuroughly disagree with that I'm not going to use it to update my first post.

Personally I don't see olimar as a large disadvantage...he's so easy to gimp. XD

completely agreed. Zelda has an answer for a lot of olimar's strategies and can pretty easily gimp him... no way zelda has a large disadvantage here.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

sorry for the double post... but as long as I accidentally made it.... what do you think the best format is for making this list?

should we go one character at a time and examine zelda's matchup against said character? or should we get the best zeldas to input their own charts out of their own personal experience and then just average them out?

 

[SinkingHigher]

Meh. I have some issues with him throwing Pikmin at me. That's all he seems to ever do, so...

Otherwise he's easy to whack around. Some of those characters I was unsure of. I don't find Pit to be hard to beat. Deflect his arrows. Din when he's spinning his bow thing. Smash or f-air when he's flying.

 

[S2]

The matchup chart is basically correct on the tactical board. There were a few matchups I disagreed with, but they ended up getting changed... so the current list is pretty accurate for Zelda.

Worst matchups are probably Lucas/Ness/G&W/Marth/Meta. The first 3 due to movesets that counter Din's (thus her ability to force the opponent to be the aggresser) and Marth/Meta due to their speed and range.

I wouldn't say that Zelda has an overwhelming advantage against anyone. Certainly no guranteed wins against a good player.

It's also a myth that Zelda counters heavy characters. These matches can become a real nightmare very fast (were talking Ganon, DDD, etc). Keep in mind that you usually have to get double the percent to kill them since they'll live extra long and they can kill you extra early since your light). Even worse news if you're on a level where the ceiling is high. And if you go for a kill and it doesn't work, thus lowering the knockback... well then you're really in a bad position.

I'm not saying the heavies are a bad matchup, just that they aren't a breeze or easy if you're against a dedicated player of certain characters. DDD for instance outranges Zelda and has a b-air that ruins her. He's got about as many advantages in that fight as you do. At least you can't be chain grabbed well.


But yeah, back to my point. The tactical board chart is basically correct for Zelda.

 

[popsofctown]

I really do not see Lucas as neutral against Zelda. He nullifies her projectile (for the most part), and can force approaches by spamming his projectiles. And his Ftilt makes him hard approach from the front. (he seems easier to approach from the back, but his downsmash does actually hit behind him. As does his upsmash.)

Zelda has other advantages, she can hurt his recovery and punish pk thunder a lot... But i think Lucas is at least a soft counter. If he sucks just one short range din's, he gets 16% healed.

 

[Dr. Hyde]

I agree that Olimar is not a counter if anything its pretty much dead even, or played to death.

And as far as that chart goes I disagree with plenty of things.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I added Olimar as neutral and lucas and ness as slight disadvantages.

as long as we are on the topic: heavies.

how do you think zelda does vs.
Ike
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon
Dedede
Bowser
Donkey Kong
Wario
Snake
ROB

personally, zelda seems to have the advantage over all of them to me: donkey kong is close enough it could go neutral, and DDD and Captain Falcon seems to put zelda at a massive advantage... but I'll see what you guys think

reasoning:
Donkey Kong has range and priority which, unfortunately, outrange some of zelda's attacks. That's a big part of what makes zelda so great.

DDD is the easiest charcter to lightning kick IMO, any time he recovers, it's a free lighting kick for zelda or a free smash if the positioning is better for that. Her Din's fire completely outcamps waddle dee toss since it can go through it.

CF doesn't have the weight of other heavies to protect him, and not much he does can get inside of zelda's magical wall of priority.


this is pretty bare bones, but I didn't want to sway other opinions.

 

[Aura Knight]

Fox is horrible against Zelda

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Fox is horrible against Zelda

I don't necessarily dispute this... but I don't play against foxes often at all... could I have some reasons and/or some support for your claim?

 

[Aeyr]

Fox is horrible against Zelda

Fox is even worse against shiek. Getting stuck in that f-tilt spam is murder.

 

[goodkid]

Yeah, I don't think DDD is a highly favorable matchup to Zelda. Check this out:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=q9Ww5yaw2ls

The DDD was pretty smart and Zelda has to watch out for his Bair. The good thing is that the Chaingrab looks tech-able for Zelda!

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Yeah, I don't think DDD is a highly favorable matchup to Zelda. Check this out:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=q9Ww5yaw2ls

The DDD was pretty smart and Zelda has to watch out for his Bair. The good thing is that the Chaingrab looks tech-able for Zelda!

chaingrab doesn't work on zelda... and I don't think I can change the status of the matchup based on one video... especially when I don't know the comparitive skills of the players. And when I'm not recieving much disagreement that the matchup is is huge favour of zelda.

 

[Tsuteto]

Zelda has an advantage over D3, but not a huge one. A D3 needs only to nair to prevent being bair/faired by a Zelda, aside from using fair and bair, even forward b or down b. Others can testify my word for being a far above fair Zelda player, and I've played a more than fair D3 on several occasions, even experimented with D3 myself.

I'll touch other places if I'm bored enough.

 

[Aeyr]

For being a huge target, that zelda didn't land a single kick on that dedede >_>

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

For being a huge target, that zelda didn't land a single kick on that dedede >_>

I noticed... I didn't se many attempts... but I noticed that the few made by this zelda didn't land... The zelda in the vid seemed to have lots of trouble controlling Farore's wind effectively... resulting in more than one death.

I'll update again once we get some data on all the heavies. but I am willing to move DDD off the "completely owned by zelda" box if that's what the upper levels say... I know on my skill level, zelda destroys DDD, but I'll admit I'm not professional. I'm enough to win local competitions, but I'm not pro... Omni's even a little better than me.

 

[Tsuteto]

Not good enough to win the competitions here, but I put up a **** fierce fight. My Zelda is feared both here in Utah as well as in Colorado. But once you get to an upper scene, you'll see how even in Brawl there's a difference in levels. I'll even fight you with my D3 to show you how he does not get purely owned by Zelda.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I'd accept the challenge, but it wouldn't mean much because I live in ohio so we probably won't meet, and my online zelda is well... terrible... I just can't get used to the lag.

still I'll friend code you and maybe we can brawl sometime.

 

[Tsuteto]

Even then, it can give you a general idea. Though it may not place someone at the top of their game, having the general idea can but a huge problem solver.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

just give me a holler when you want to play and I'll add you

 

[Dr. Hyde]

Umm why isn't Snake a heavy?

I'm dead certain living til 200% make you a heavy, exception of WAC with Olimar which isn't that good.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Umm why isn't Snake a heavy?

I'm dead certain living til 200% make you a heavy, exception of WAC with Olimar which isn't that good.

because I forgot him... I KNEW there was one omre heavy I was forgetting.

anyway, my personal experience says:

Large Advantage in favour of Zelda:
Dedede
Captain Falcon

Advantage in favour of Zelda:
Ike
Bowser
Ganondorf
Wario
Donkey Kong

Even matchup:
Snake

 

[DanGR]

Hey, I'm not gonna say anything about this matchup besides ask this:

Do you consider this olimar player to be "good" in this game v zelda?

DM(Zelda) James(Olimar)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OknHBztBl0A

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Hey, I'm not gonna say anything about this matchup besides ask this:

Do you consider this olimar player to be "good" in this game v zelda?

DM(Zelda) James(Olimar)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OknHBztBl0A

hmm? what are you asking? the zelda seems to be more skilled, it's true, but not overly so.. the olimar is still very respectable. if you are saying this vid proves Olimar's dominance, then I'd like to state that Lylat cruise is NOT kind to zelda at all and that other vids of the duo show zelda winning. One vid does not a matchup make. I think that olimar vs. Zelda is a very close matchup.

 

[Aeyr]

hmm? what are you asking? the zelda seems to be more skilled, it's true, but not overly so.. the olimar is still very respectable. if you are saying this vid proves Olimar's dominance, then I'd like to state that Lylat cruise is NOT kind to zelda at all and that other vids of the duo show zelda winning. One vid does not a matchup make. I think that olimar vs. Zelda is a very close matchup.

The videos in my thread are mostly olimar vs. Zelda. You can view most of those if you want.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=170314
forgot to add link >_>

 

[DanGR]

hmm? what are you asking? the zelda seems to be more skilled, it's true, but not overly so.. the olimar is still very respectable. if you are saying this vid proves Olimar's dominance, then I'd like to state that Lylat cruise is NOT kind to zelda at all and that other vids of the duo show zelda winning. One vid does not a matchup make. I think that olimar vs. Zelda is a very close matchup.

One match doesn't make the matchup, true, but one player's performance over several games can have a decent impact on the matchup in general. I'd just like to know if this olimar is/was considered as a source in people's argument that zelda=olimar for the matchup of zelda v olimar. This player is the only one I could find in the zelda forums. And I do realize that zylat isn't a necessarily good stage for Zelda either.(though I do wonder why) I don't wish to argue over this matchup among the zelda players.

The videos in my thread are mostly olimar vs. Zelda. You can view most of those if you want.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=170314
forgot to add link >_>

thanks, i didn't see them.

 

[Aeyr]

One match doesn't make the matchup, true, but one player's performance over several games can have a decent impact on the matchup in general. I'd just like to know if this olimar is/was considered as a source in people's argument that zelda=olimar for the matchup of zelda v olimar. This player is the only one I could find in the zelda forums. And I do realize that zylat isn't a necessarily good stage for Zelda either.(though I do wonder why) I don't wish to argue over this matchup among the zelda players.


thanks, i didn't see them.

I think you saw some of them replying to Dr.Hyde's post in the olimar forums XD.

-of course this also depends on someone's play style I suppose. I'm too used to Hyde's style that I've probably learned how to counter it as is, but I guess I can use that against others who use olimar. Out of most of our matches though, we usually go 50/50.

...After seeing that video against DM though, I think Hyde puts up more of a challange...

 

[DanGR]

As I said earlier, I couldn't find any in the zelda forums. I didn't see a video compilation in the main threads at the top of this subforum like most character threads have. From the first zelda guide thread, I saw numerous videos that weren't titled. (I didn't look through all of those for time's sake. forgive me if there were some in there.)

I try and look at your forum to see what y'all are viewing to make you say that olimar=zelda. I can see what Dr. Hyde posted in our forum, but I doubt y'all(i know you do ) go over to the olimar thread much, if at all.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

...And I do realize that zylat isn't a necessarily good stage for Zelda either.(though I do wonder why) ...

it't nearly impossible to get farore's wind to sweetspot the ledge there meaning that she'll have to recover onto the stage and get punished for the cooldown lag or risk getting eaten by the stage's lip. olimar's recovery is worse on the whole, but is completely unnaffected by the stage meaning he fares no worse on this stage than any other and zelda does.

 

[Dr. Hyde]

Hey, I'm not gonna say anything about this matchup besides ask this:

Do you consider this olimar player to be "good" in this game v zelda?

DM(Zelda) James(Olimar)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OknHBztBl0A

I personally think Aeyr puts up way more of a fight than Dark Musician seems to. Nothing against either of the players, I believe DarkM is a respectable Zelda but...

Olimar in that match definitely shouldn't have won. I honestly am seeing so little of a ground game and terrible dodging on the Olimar's part I really want to say that the Olimar needs to be better.

50/50 is how it definitely seems after pretty much being non-stop against each other with Aeyr.

Also for Lylat the thing I think puts Olimar in a odd spot is the tilting of the ship makes the angles of some smashes not come out at all.

All I wanted to say.

 

[SinkingHigher]

Ganondorf is especially easy to beat. He's too slow to do anything, and you can just f-air him on the ground at any time. You have to plan each move in advance with him though. One wrong move, and it's a FALCON PUNCCCHH dinner for you.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I personally think Aeyr puts up way more of a fight than Dark Musician seems to. Nothing against either of the players, I believe DarkM is a respectable Zelda but...

Olimar in that match definitely shouldn't have won. I honestly am seeing so little of a ground game and terrible dodging on the Olimar's part I really want to say that the Olimar needs to be better.

50/50 is how it definitely seems after pretty much being non-stop against each other with Aeyr.

Also for Lylat the thing I think puts Olimar in a odd spot is the tilting of the ship makes the angles of some smashes not come out at all.

All I wanted to say.

Dark M and the olimar of that match is better than you are giving them credit for... that vid is ancient.

 

[Aeyr]

I personally think Aeyr puts up way more of a fight than Dark Musician seems to. Nothing against either of the players, I believe DarkM is a respectable Zelda but...

Olimar in that match definitely shouldn't have won. I honestly am seeing so little of a ground game and terrible dodging on the Olimar's part I really want to say that the Olimar needs to be better.

50/50 is how it definitely seems after pretty much being non-stop against each other with Aeyr.

Also for Lylat the thing I think puts Olimar in a odd spot is the tilting of the ship makes the angles of some smashes not come out at all.

All I wanted to say.

Oh god I wouldn't give me THAT much credit. I still have a crap load to learn/fix. And yes, the video is old, comparatively, but I've seen olimar do a lot more than that.

 

[DanGR]

I thank you all for your input.

Sonic, I didn't know why it was harder. thanks. (i'll be sure to counterpick. )

Aeyr, don't be so hard on yourself. You're pretty good. You do somethings differently that DM does wrong.

Dr. Hyde, you're absolutely right. The olimar didn't do well on the ground and didn't seem to dodge correctly.

I already posted my thoughts in the matchup board a while ago and I got some negative feedback. I'm just trying to see what kinda gameplay (along with your own experience) does influence y'alls arguements that zelda=olimar.
~thanks~

 

[Aeyr]

Reading the Bowser thread, the guys are making out to be that we're at a surprising disadvantage. I haven't fought any real Bowser mains yet so what are everyone's opinions?

-something I've noticed also reading the other character threads is this belief that all Zelda has is her Din's Fire...how did that start up O_o. I honestly think her other moves are more frightening!