~ Zelda's Matchups: Let's Get Tactical ~

[AlanHaTe]

You mis-read the thread. The credits only show people who helped outside the BBR. The BBR itself has Zelda players. Do not assume that the BBR just cobbled together a bunch of random people for the Zelda panel.

that explains it... my bad =/

 

[MrEh]

It's fine.

The problem with making projects like these is the backlash that's going to happen afterward. The BBR can't please everybody, but we tried our best to make the chart as accurate as possible. The numbers weren't just pulled out of a hat. Matchups were discussed upon over a period of months.

Even though a lot of you don't agree with Zelda's ratios, they were agreed upon by the BBR. Personally, I would tweak a few of the ratios by 1 point, but Zelda's ratios as a whole are very accurate. The numbers were meant to interpret Zelda's matchups at high levels of play, so keep that in mind before you, for example, complain that Zelda/Snake isn't -3 or that Zelda/Dedede is even.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I believe it. Zelda is slow and Din's is terrible for camping.

how do you explain zelda getting outcamped by characters with NO projectiles who are also slow or who also have limited range on standard attacks?

 

[KayLo!]

how do you explain zelda getting outcamped by characters with NO projectiles who are also slow or who also have limited range on standard attacks?

Like who?

Can't really think of anybody besides like.... Ganon.

 

[MrEh]

Can't really think of anybody besides like.... Ganon.

This.

Who exactly are you talking about Hedgedawg? The only character that fits that description is Ganon. Even if we go as high as D tier, there's still no one else that matches that description.

Luigi: Outcamps with Fireballs.
Wolf: Blaster lol
Sonic: Din's doesn't work against Sonic
Sheik: Outcamps with Needles
Yoshi: Spam Eggs
Lucas: Doesn't care about Zelda's camping in the slightest
Mario: Think Luigi, except with better Fireballs
Captain Falcon: Din's also doesn't work against Falcon
Samus: Outcamp Samus? Right.
Jiggs: Jiggs laughs at Din's as she floats around
Link: Link is both faster then Zelda and camps better then her

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Like who?

Can't really think of anybody besides like.... Ganon.

Ganon
-No projectiles
-Slow as moses

Falcon
-No projectiles
-Fast, but poor range

Jiggz
- No projectiles
- awful range, awful speed.

Bowser
-No projectiles
-not particularly fast, and range is comparable to zelda


all come to mind.


The next characters to come close to the description would be Sonic, DK and Ike. All of whom DO have advantages on zelda, though I would have put them all on the same tier. I really don't find sonic more difficult than ike at all, and DK only marginally so.


And, honestly, before you get on my case about being "OMG ZELDA FANBOY" . . . that would be a total of FOUR advantaged matchups vs. the entire cast.... 4. And I honestly DO think that zelda has at least 4 advantaged matchups.



But it's not JUST the small number of advantages on the chart. It's that she has almost no EVEN matchups either. Look at Yoshi for example. Why are we disadvantaged against him?

 

[MrEh]

Besides Ganon and Bowser, which are obvious, Zelda does not outcamp Jiggs or Falcon. Falcon moves very fast and doesn't care in the slightest if Zelda throws a Din's at him. He runs across FD faster then Zelda can throw a second Din's. She has no way to protect herself from Uair juggles once Falcon gets going, and cannot catch Falcon once he gets the lead.

Jiggs is slow on the ground. Too bad Jiggs is never on the ground. Jiggs can just float around and you won't even touch her with Din's, let alone bother her with it. Zelda's other moves, like Usmash are far more dangerous to Jiggs then Din's is. And once Jiggs gets the lead, Zelda suffers against the aircamping the same way she does with MK and Wario.

And, honestly, before you get on my case about being "OMG ZELDA FANBOY" . . . that would be a total of FOUR advantaged matchups vs. the entire cast.... 4. And I honestly DO think that zelda has at least 4 advantaged matchups..

It's not about you being a Zelda fanboy. Everyone has the right to their own opinion, and we all tend to be biased toward our own characters. However, the unanimous opinion in the BBR is that Zelda is that bad. Even amongst the Zelda players back there.

But it's not JUST the small number of advantages on the chart. It's that she has almost no EVEN matchups either. Look at Yoshi for example. Why are we disadvantaged against him?

1. Yoshi outcamps characters with bad/no projectiles
2. Yoshi wrecks characters with poor approaches (ever wonder why Yoshi/Luigi is even?)
3. Yoshi can run away from slow characters easily

Zelda's lack of even matchups are warranted. She is 2nd worst on the tier list. It wouldn't make sense if she had a bunch of even matchups. Being 2nd worst in the game means you are a flat out unviable character. You can't expect even matchups.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Besides Ganon and Bowser, which are obvious, Zelda does not outcamp Jiggs or Falcon. Falcon moves very fast and doesn't care in the slightest if Zelda throws a Din's at him. He runs across FD faster then Zelda can throw a second Din's. She has no way to protect herself from Uair juggles once Falcon gets going, and cannot catch Falcon once he gets the lead.

Jiggs is slow on the ground. Too bad Jiggs is never on the ground. Jiggs can just float around and you won't even touch her with Din's, let alone bother her with it. Zelda's other moves, like Usmash are far more dangerous to Jiggs then Din's is. And once Jiggs gets the lead, Zelda suffers against the aircamping the same way she does with MK and Wario.

I never said anything about Din's in my posts though. Honestly I KNOW din's isn't the best thing zelda has on either of them. But my experience against jigglies is that her gorund vs air moveset in general gives jiggz problems, for example.

 

[Veggie123]

i'm glad they caught on to how bad samus is for zelda. i thought overall her ratios were pretty good

only thing i'd change would be making ICs and jiggs -1.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

i'm glad they caught on to how bad samus is for zelda. i thought overall her ratios were pretty good

only thing i'd change would be making ICs and jiggs -1.

Samus or Zss?

 

[Veggie123]

samus! her zair is way too good in the MU and not to mention the rest of her projectiles. zelda just gets outzoned all the time. the only answer is to powershield everything lol

about zss...i don't know if zamus is -3, but i can kind of understand it being that way. i just haven't played any amazing ones to prove my assumptions.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

samus! her zair is way too good in the MU and not to mention the rest of her projectiles. zelda just gets outzoned all the time. the only answer is to powershield everything lol

about zss...i don't know if zamus is -3, but i can kind of understand it being that way. i just haven't played any amazing ones to prove my assumptions.

I agree on both accounts. Samus and toon link BOTH have stupid zairs and projectiles to zone us way too easily.


And, Zamus is not good.... but I don't see her as -3 bad. That's heavy, even for zelda.

 

[-Mars-]

Yoshi and Luigi don't outcamp Zelda lol.

Eggs suck if you stay grounded. And Luigi's fireball might be worse than Dins lol.

 

[GodAtHand]

I agree with Mars.

 

[MrEh]

Eggs suck if you stay grounded. And Luigi's fireball might be worse than Dins lol.

And grounded Zelda can't approach. Especially against Yoshi, who is ridiculous at stopping slow and grounded approaches.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

And grounded Zelda can't approach. Especially against Yoshi, who is ridiculous at stopping slow and grounded approaches.

which begs the question I original asked:

If neither can camp the other, and neither are good at APPROACHING the other, then why is that matchup in Yoshi's favour as opposed to being even?

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Sonic: Din's doesn't work against Sonic
Lucas: Doesn't care about Zelda's camping in the slightest
Captain Falcon: Din's also doesn't work against Falcon

These three (+ Yoshi and Luigi, but they're already being discussed) are questionable. True, Zelda won't be outcamping any of them with Din's, that's obvious. However, none of them can actively pressure her with projectiles or safe, long or disjointed pokes either, so neither character is really forced to approach.

Note: I'm not debating the actual matchups, only whether Zelda gets outcamped by these characters or not.

Luigi's fireball might be worse than Dins lol.

Yeah, it's hard to say which projectile is truly worse. They're both quite bad, but in different ways.

-Din's is slow, easy to defend against and punishable
-Fireball is unwieldy, short-ranged and almost equally punishable

 

[MrEh]

If neither can camp the other, and neither are good at APPROACHING the other, then why is that matchup in Yoshi's favour as opposed to being even?

Maybe it's because Yoshi is just a faster, more solid character? Last I checked, Yoshi moves really fast and can actually recover. Zelda cannot.

I would still argue that Eggs are a better projectile then Din's. Yoshi can just chuck eggs at midscreen and force Zelda to commit. I was also under the impression that Yoshi's Nair will clank with Din's.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I would still argue that Eggs are a better projectile then Din's. Yoshi can just chuck eggs at midscreen and force Zelda to commit. I was also under the impression that Yoshi's Nair will clank with Din's.

better or not, they are still bad enough that he can't force an approach with them.

 

[Kataefi]

I'll update the chart with BBR figures for now and it'll be ready in under a billion years. I think we should start off with what everyone disagrees with so as to spark some conversation concerning how to deal with our addictions matchups.

 

[AlanHaTe]

better or not, they are still bad enough that he can't force an approach with them.

If I remember right I think you can just crouch and the eggs problem is solved. But I haven't played a good Yoshi never ever x_x

Well, in other things may be worth nothing but anyways is good to know... If you PS Snake's first Ftilt you can buffer(?) Nayru's and you wont get hit by the second tilt because of the IF's :3

 

[MrEh]

But good Snakes don't just spam the entire Ftilt.

They usually spam the Knee.

 

[AlanHaTe]

But good Snakes don't just spam the entire Ftilt.

They usually spam the Knee.

Well, I've seen so many Snakes that do it... x_x
Anyway I just posted that stuff just in case happens or someone wants to try
And I'm from the idea that there's never information that could be useless, there's always a situation for everything, the problem is generally to be in that situation, but if you're in that situation and think fast you can do something about it.

 

[AlanHaTe]

I read this on the older MU thread

Dancing blade should not be a problem with good shield and DI performance. Be alert with this move - Zelda's floatiness allows her to SDI the 3 variations of dancing blade on reaction (more to come here). On SDI, you can immediately Nayru's into him. On shield, you want to typically wait for the 3rd hit where you can release your shield and immediately Dsmash or Dtilt. If he's close enough to you, you can get a grab and a Usmash.

I really need to know how to do the part of SDI > Nayru's

Where do I have to SDI? I have tried it but it seems that I'm not doing it right and I fail miserably :C

 

[Kataefi]

It boils down to the variations he uses. It's the first 3 hits that you need to observe and SDI accordingly I believe. Can someone plz test this? I SDI sharp [insert opposite direction to where Marth's facing] with the c-stick and sharp up with the d-stick and I pop and jump out... and then spam nayru's out of panic and die a slow and embarrassing death I wouldn't bother grabbing btw unless he mispaces.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I remember once a CPU Zelda LKed me when I was doing DB.
It was so amazing....

 

[Publix]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGMXNClSIHI watch the second match vs snake, she ***** a *****

 

[AlanHaTe]

It boils down to the variations he uses. It's the first 3 hits that you need to observe and SDI accordingly I believe. Can someone plz test this? I SDI sharp [insert opposite direction to where Marth's facing] with the c-stick and sharp up with the d-stick and I pop and jump out... and then spam nayru's out of panic and die a slow and embarrassing death I wouldn't bother grabbing btw unless he mispaces.

I always try to SDI away from Marth but almost never works that well in the best cases I just don't get hit by the last hit or 2 hits but still don't know what else to do

 

[doxalafox]

Blank Message.

 

[Nova]

rofl.

You ******, seriously.
MK's attacks, Snake's attacks, look, for example, does Zelda have a move that is even closely as good as Sna.....

Actually why bother, it'll go straight over your head.

[deleted]

I'll probs get a 3 point infraction for this (hey it's not porn, I'm just making fun of a tool).
I suppose you think that womans breasts are the same size?
That's almost as stupid as "every character is even", you ****.

 

[doxalafox]

Blank Message.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

No, they aren't. You are wrong.

Read this: http://www.ssbwiki.com/User:Semicolon/Treatise_on_the_Existence_of_Tiers

 

[doxalafox]

Blank Message.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'm not even going to bother... >_>

 

[KayLo!]

I'm not even going to bother... >_>

Dunno why you even started, lol.

 

[AlanHaTe]

does anyone know how exactly is done that whan Falco jabs Zelda and you can Fair LK falco straight in the face???

I've done this just once and I have anyone to help me find out... The only thing I know is that you have to SDI but I don't remember if it's away or up or both x_x

 

[Beluina]

Who?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I don't get why people try these matchup things seriously.

EVERY CHARACTER is THE BEST when used properly. Zelda is the same as Metaknight, the characters were all made to be even so tier lists and matchups are so stupid.

Standard n00b mentality. I think we all thought this way at some point. We all WISH this were the truth and I'm sure, on some level, Sakurai intended on this being true, but it just isn't.

While sakurai may not have INTENDED up teirs existing, he really doesn't care about the professional meta-game much so he didn't really do much to PREVENT a teir list from forming. Tier lists are the norm, not the exception, unless the design team were to send out patches and take a large amount of time watching top players and having input from them, tier lists would naturally form and, so they have. Due to mainly oversight, some characters are just flat-out better than others in a professional setting. It's unfortunate, maybe, but it's quite true.

As for your beliefs, they aren't necessarily untrue, if you play well enough, you can overcome a disadvantage, but that doesn't mean that you didn't handicap yourself by choosing a worse character. As for playstyles... yes you have to have the right playstyle to even use your character well at all, but that doesn't mean that with the best playstyles, all characters are equal. That would be like saying you've trained an attack dog to the peak of his possibility so he should be able to take on a lion because he's got the right playstyle.

Overall this argument is meaningless, tier lists will exist whether you believe in them or not, ithinking otherwise is akin to believing that you can fly by denying gravity's existance. I would recomend taking the path of a n00b rather than a scrub and allowing yourself to LEARN about competitive battling since it's the only way you'll be able to really make any progress. You can resist all you want, but you're only hurting yourself.




And that's literally all I'm going to say about the topic because the topic is OFF topic and has been argued to death with newbie after newbie forever. If you have further questions about tier lists, use the search function and find a more appropriate forum for your grievances.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Standard n00b mentality. I think we all thought this way at some point. We all WISH this were the truth and I'm sure, on some level, Sakurai intended on this being true, but it just isn't.

While sakurai may not have INTENDED up teirs existing, he really doesn't care about the professional meta-game much so he didn't really do much to PREVENT a teir list from forming. Tier lists are the norm, not the exception, unless the design team were to send out patches and take a large amount of time watching top players and having input from them, tier lists would naturally form and, so they have. Due to mainly oversight, some characters are just flat-out better than others in a professional setting. It's unfortunate, maybe, but it's quite true.

As for your beliefs, they aren't necessarily untrue, if you play well enough, you can overcome a disadvantage, but that doesn't mean that you didn't handicap yourself by choosing a worse character. As for playstyles... yes you have to have the right playstyle to even use your character well at all, but that doesn't mean that with the best playstyles, all characters are equal. That would be like saying you've trained an attack dog to the peak of his possibility so he should be able to take on a lion because he's got the right playstyle.

Overall this argument is meaningless, tier lists will exist whether you believe in them or not, ithinking otherwise is akin to believing that you can fly by denying gravity's existance. I would recomend taking the path of a n00b rather than a scrub and allowing yourself to LEARN about competitive battling since it's the only way you'll be able to really make any progress. You can resist all you want, but you're only hurting yourself.




And that's literally all I'm going to say about the topic because the topic is OFF topic and has been argued to death with newbie after newbie forever. If you have further questions about tier lists, use the search function and find a more appropriate forum for your grievances.

I don't think it's a standard noob mentality nor do I think he's right for going as for as claiming Zelda is the same as MK. However, despite MU ratio's players overcome the odds no matter how bad they are. Because the MU's aren't really based on anything a lot of it has to deal with player skill, knowledge and ability to read their opponent. You shouldn't be so narrow minded.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I don't think it's a standard noob mentality

well clearly that's because you're a n00b.