Zelda Video Discussion

[4tlas]

t=1h20m03s at the end of your url should do it I think. Here I'll try it right now:

http://www.twitch.tv/hsvasl/b/636825506t=1h20m03s

Hmm nope works for youtube though. Tried some variations still didn't work. I'll see if I can figure it out.

Edit: AHA you need ? then what I posted. So http://www.twitch.tv/hsvasl/b/636825506?t=1h20m03s should work?

 

[4tlas]

Match begins at 1:20:03. I'd particularly like feedback on the Samus matches. I know a better Samus than him, so tips would be much appreciated. Plus I'm supposed to write that matchup for the matchup anthology.

http://www.twitch.tv/hsvasl/b/636825506
How do you get a twich broadcast to start at a specific time?

Ok so I answered how to get it to start at a specific time above, now I watched the set and can comment.

Your biggest problem is that you aren't blocking/dodging the missiles. You seem to have a habit of trying to spotdodge EVERYTHING, which a) runs the risk of mistiming and b) may not give you a punish option. Try calmly shielding and perhaps shield grabbing. This works very well when Samus is up in your face, as she has a more difficult time countering the shield with her tether grab. It also works well against missiles from far away.

In general (against Mario, too) I think you are too afraid of your opponent or not confident enough in your counterattack options. Instead of shield grabbing I see a lot of rolling away and returning to neutral when you could get huge punishes on your opponent. Next time you play a friendly, concentrate on nothing but defense, and don't roll/spotdodge. Shield, nayrus, run just out of range then back in, whatever.

Another thing you can do against Samus (and perhaps any MU, but I'm biased in favor of this playstyle) is to put out Dins just to clank things. It will block a missile for you, and even if she doesn't get rid of it then you can use it as an opportunity to approach her or it.

 

[ZGE]

Hey, I recently went to a pretty big local tournament in St. Louis and got 5th (in a bracket of 48 with pools prior to that). Definitely my biggest tournament and one of the most fun ones I did. Anyway, I got three sets recorded. One of them is against a Wario player, Vista (who was the only person I lost to the whole tournament, he beat me in pools, winners, and losers lol) and the second is against a Luigi player, Eggman. There's a third video I'll put up once the tournament streamer uploads it to YouTube (again against the Wario player in losers, who I once again lose to). Feel free to critique.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hxps9iu284g (vs. Wario)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCyhRVlIl0s (vs. Luigi)

I already see a lot of things that I didn't do well and generally have an over-reliance on teleport. I know when not to use it, I just sometimes would panic or think I would catch my opponent off guard. And I had some suboptimal punishes and a LOT of sourspotted bairs and fairs.

Oh, and I threw out Dins at some really poor times, although some of those times I meant to f-smash instead of throw out Dins.

 

[Luis Alonso]

Alright, I had the privilege of being annihilated multiple times by our very own Z-Hime, and I'd like some feedback if you don't mind. After all, there are things that other people can pick out that you yourself can miss very easily.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odXJ9WBMDcg&index=2&list=PLWmP-a1BKMXF5aMu6so3hAowMULsNfwuZ

 

[4tlas]

Alright, I had the privilege of being annihilated multiple times by our very own Z-Hime, and I'd like some feedback if you don't mind. After all, there are things that other people can pick out that you yourself can miss very easily.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odXJ9WBMDcg&index=2&list=PLWmP-a1BKMXF5aMu6so3hAowMULsNfwuZ

It's hard to notice a pattern with which to give advice on. The only 2 things I noticed were that 1) sometimes you committed yourself to options that had literally 0% chance of succeeding and 2) you were simply slower than Zhime. I think point 2 speaks more to Zhime's skill than to your mistakes, as I thought you were still very fluid and impressive with your movement and reactive decisions, but you were always just slower than Zhime.

As for point 1, I can try to find some specific examples. There were some times where Zhime had a Dins out, and rather than temporarily retreat and look for a new angle, you would double jump to get around the mine. This removes all of your options and allows Zhime to land huge punishes on you. You can't jump out of his attacks, you can't retreat because Dins is now behind you, you can't set your own Din or teleport because now you're too close to Zhime, and he has the initiative to choose when to attack (since he is still grounded). Some other times you went for dair or upsmash when Zhime couldn't have moved to that position if he wanted to, and those are both slow to finish. Perhaps those were all technical errors, or maybe you were intimidated by Zhime and felt that such a god would be able to approach you at any time.

I thought you overall played well. Dittos are odd matches, and Zelda dittos are some of the strangest. Its hard to analyze what you did right and what you did wrong, since he has all the same options as you. You used the wrong ones at the wrong times?

 

[4tlas]

Hey, I recently went to a pretty big local tournament in St. Louis and got 5th (in a bracket of 48 with pools prior to that). Definitely my biggest tournament and one of the most fun ones I did. Anyway, I got three sets recorded. One of them is against a Wario player, Vista (who was the only person I lost to the whole tournament, he beat me in pools, winners, and losers lol) and the second is against a Luigi player, Eggman. There's a third video I'll put up once the tournament streamer uploads it to YouTube (again against the Wario player in losers, who I once again lose to). Feel free to critique.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hxps9iu284g (vs. Wario)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCyhRVlIl0s (vs. Luigi)

I already see a lot of things that I didn't do well and generally have an over-reliance on teleport. I know when not to use it, I just sometimes would panic or think I would catch my opponent off guard. And I had some suboptimal punishes and a LOT of sourspotted bairs and fairs.

Oh, and I threw out Dins at some really poor times, although some of those times I meant to f-smash instead of throw out Dins.

Sorry I didn't respond earlier, I missed this!

I don't think you have an over-reliance on teleport, but that's probably because I use it more than you do (and I shouldn't either lol). I can see 2 things you can definitely improve on, however. The first is using dair when trying to get out of juggles. My advice is to not do that, as it is a very slow and weak attack. Your better options would be to teleport down or airdodge then fastfall. You could also place a Din while you're falling, or transform if you're into that.

The other thing I think would be helpful is to use your Din as a zoning tool. In those matches you were using it as a projectile. From far away you were harassing with it. When edgeguarding you converted off of it. When it was returning you let it drive-by your opponents while you waited for its return.

Instead, you can also use it to predict where your opponent will go, or to protect your flank. Purposely stay near it in neutral or use it to cover the startup of a teleport approach. I noticed you would place one then run away from it a lot. When edgeguarding, place it in one of your opponent's recovery paths (low or high) to force him into the other, then edgeguard that one. You placed it on the ledge every time, even when your opponent was recovering so high he could just ignore it. Time the return with an approach. When the opponent shields, grab them.

As you mentioned, you missed a lot of bairs and fairs, but you don't need advice to know that. Another thing you may want to think about is how much you jump, including wavedashing. When you are CONSTANTLY jumping, you can't be shielding! Try to mix it up a bit. Dashdance sometimes instead of wavedashing back and forth, so you can still shield. The Wario player caught you out of jump very often.

Edit: To summarize what I'm suggesting with Dins, you can use it even when it doesn't hit the opponent simply because they can't move to that position. By backing away from it, your opponent can just get rid of it or ignore it while you can't even punish them for getting hit by it. You can still use it as a projectile, but mixing it up will help.

 

[ZGE]

The guy doing the stream finally uploaded my other set against the Wario, here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bK_GTkz9jig

You'll see I win game 1 pretty decently, get 3-stocked in game 2, and then lose game 3 after blowing a great start. You'll see more of the same from the other videos: inopportune times of using Din's (I actually get shoulder bashed quite a bit from using Din's when I shouldn't have), a whole lot of charged (and whiffed) f-smashes, more missed kicks (although I don't think I had as many in this set as the others), not using Din's to cover approaches, some poor edgeguards, and others. Any other suggestions after watching this?

Oh yeah, didn't shield shoulder bash nearly enough and when I did, I'd miss the wavedash grab quite often.

 

[Luis Alonso]

Can I get some critiques on my match with Blackjack?

 

[Downdraft]

Can I get some critiques on my match with Blackjack?

http://smashboards.com/threads/zelda-matchup-anthology.394355/page-3#post-19084087
That's a link to the brief Sheik matchup discussion if you haven't read the two posts already.
I noticed inopportune Din's, slow movement (perhaps playing overly cautious), several whiffs and hits on shield, etc. The opponent knew Din's well, so I would have quit using it since that Sheik closed in so quickly and knew how to clank and dodge the Din's. Since most of Zelda's ground attacks are unsafe on shield and Sheik has fast OOS options, I'd be careful with using them unless Sheik's in the air or getting comboed. Perhaps it would have been better to take an incremental approach against this opponent, e.g. using fewer lightning kicks in favor of N-airs and U-airs to increase damage. Zelda has plenty of early kill moves: lightning kicks, U-tilt, sweetspotted D-air and U-air, and maximum Din's explosion (requires a high level of skill). D-throw, N-air, and U-smash are great means of racking up the opponent's damage at any percentage to make B-throw, D-smash (preferably at the ledge), U-smash, N-air, F-smash, and F-tilt (inner hitboxes near edge; this should catch an opponent off guard since most Zeldas only use the the the outer hitboxes that pull opponents in) viable kill moves.

You used Nayru's to break combos and stuff approaches well. Just remember that Diamond Diving was removed and that the attack does not have hitboxes at the top or bottom, so use it sparingly if above or below the opponent. You played nicely IMO, nearly good enough to win if you'd acted bolder. I look forward to footage of you winning the rematch in the near future. Good luck!

 

[ZGE]

Can someone comment on my other video? >.>

Here's a couple more although I'm mostly Game and Watch for these, go to game 2 against Falcon (L) and game 5 against Wario (W) for Zelda.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQbD2l69HoQ&index=20&list=PL6ac8u-Z7HnJaLyGLu7xXx4cfd6HxHdgu (vs. Falcon)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wG6uTt_DcvU&list=PL6ac8u-Z7HnJaLyGLu7xXx4cfd6HxHdgu&index=22 (vs. Wario)

 

[Vitriform]

Can someone comment on my other video? >.>

Here's a couple more although I'm mostly Game and Watch for these, go to game 2 against Falcon (L) and game 5 against Wario (W) for Zelda.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQbD2l69HoQ&index=20&list=PL6ac8u-Z7HnJaLyGLu7xXx4cfd6HxHdgu (vs. Falcon)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wG6uTt_DcvU&list=PL6ac8u-Z7HnJaLyGLu7xXx4cfd6HxHdgu&index=22 (vs. Wario)

I think 4tlas covered most of the bases with regard to your gameplay in the 3.6 thread, but I did notice a few things on which he did not comment.

That said, I'd like to focus primarily on your ledge game. Overall, your option selection while you were actually on the ledge was excellent. I saw no glaring mistakes in terms of what you did in this respect; your teleport stalls were effective, and you used ledgedashing, ledgehop Naryu and ledgehop Fair in appropriate situations. However, one thing I noticed that you can work on is actually taking the ledge in situations where you aren't absolutely forced to do so.

You rarely opted to recover to the ledge, instead deciding to land onstage or hit the opponent with a teleburn. This can be a powerful mixup, but in a lot of cases, recovering to ledge is much safer, and if your opponent gives it to you, you should almost always take it. By forgoing this opportunity, you even lost the opportunity to take a stock at one point, as mentioned by 4tlas (5:10 vs. Falcon). Particularly at low percents, a player that predicts one of your teleburns can CC it and retaliate with ease, so it's a good idea not to always use that option. If you do recover onstage and your opponent isn't around for a teleburn, you should shorten at the very end of the teleport to take advantage of the reduced landing lag (I didn't really see you do this either). When you are recovering from above, your teleport will snap to the ledge automatically with no vulnerable frames in between the end of your up-B startup and you actually grabbing the ledge. From below, it gets a little trickier, but if you can time your shortens correctly, you can snap directly to the ledge without being vulnerable. Of course, you will SD if you should fail, but the more you practice it, the better off you'll be when recovering low. My primary training partner is a Link main, so I very quickly learned to do this quite consistently, since missing a sweetspot meant instant death from Spin Attack.

Furthermore, not once did you teleport snap to the ledge from onstage. I saw a few instances where you could have grabbed ledge for the kill, but instead stayed onstage and dropped your edgeguards. For example, at 18:08 in your match against Wario, you should have teleported to ledge from the air after zoning him with your Lightning Kick. By throwing out the kick, you forced him to recover low (he didn't have his jump, since he used it to hit the Din), and by taking the ledge, you would have denied him the option of sweetspotting. If he went to sweetspot, you would have won the stock, no questions asked. If he recovered onstage, you could have punished the endlag of his up-B. Either way, it's a winning situation for you.

 

[ZGE]

I think 4tlas covered most of the bases with regard to your gameplay in the 3.6 thread, but I did notice a few things on which he did not comment.

That said, I'd like to focus primarily on your ledge game. Overall, your option selection while you were actually on the ledge was excellent. I saw no glaring mistakes in terms of what you did in this respect; your teleport stalls were effective, and you used ledgedashing, ledgehop Naryu and ledgehop Fair in appropriate situations. However, one thing I noticed that you can work on is actually taking the ledge in situations where you aren't absolutely forced to do so.

You rarely opted to recover to the ledge, instead deciding to land onstage or hit the opponent with a teleburn. This can be a powerful mixup, but in a lot of cases, recovering to ledge is much safer, and if your opponent gives it to you, you should almost always take it. By forgoing this opportunity, you even lost the opportunity to take a stock at one point, as mentioned by 4tlas (5:10 vs. Falcon). Particularly at low percents, a player that predicts one of your teleburns can CC it and retaliate with ease, so it's a good idea not to always use that option. If you do recover onstage and your opponent isn't around for a teleburn, you should shorten at the very end of the teleport to take advantage of the reduced landing lag (I didn't really see you do this either). When you are recovering from above, your teleport will snap to the ledge automatically with no vulnerable frames in between the end of your up-B startup and you actually grabbing the ledge. From below, it gets a little trickier, but if you can time your shortens correctly, you can snap directly to the ledge without being vulnerable. Of course, you will SD if you should fail, but the more you practice it, the better off you'll be when recovering low. My primary training partner is a Link main, so I very quickly learned to do this quite consistently, since missing a sweetspot meant instant death from Spin Attack.

Furthermore, not once did you teleport snap to the ledge from onstage. I saw a few instances where you could have grabbed ledge for the kill, but instead stayed onstage and dropped your edgeguards. For example, at 18:08 in your match against Wario, you should have teleported to ledge from the air after zoning him with your Lightning Kick. By throwing out the kick, you forced him to recover low (he didn't have his jump, since he used it to hit the Din), and by taking the ledge, you would have denied him the option of sweetspotting. If he went to sweetspot, you would have won the stock, no questions asked. If he recovered onstage, you could have punished the endlag of his up-B. Either way, it's a winning situation for you.

Aha, I see. I think I tried to grab the ledge against Falcon at 5:10 but misjudged where I was, and as far as snapping to the ledge from onstage I had practiced it for the first time like the day before that, so I didn't feel terribly comfortable doing it. But overall good stuff, I'll try to keep those things in mind.

 

[Vitriform]

Aha, I see. I think I tried to grab the ledge against Falcon at 5:10 but misjudged where I was, and as far as snapping to the ledge from onstage I had practiced it for the first time like the day before that, so I didn't
feel terribly comfortable doing it. But overall good stuff, I'll try to keep those things in mind.

Yeah, snapping from onstage is really useful and it isn't that hard to pick up. Just remember to let the control stick return to neutral after inputting your teleport direction or you'll SD.

 

[4tlas]

After inputting the direction, you have until she arrives at the ledge (she does technically still travel normally at a certain speed) to release the control stick. It gives you some leeway and some confidence to try it, and soon enough you will be able to snap from right next to the ledge without any problem.

 

[Luis Alonso]

Hey guys! Can I get some advice on my Money Match vs. Durr?

 

[4tlas]

Hey guys! Can I get some advice on my Money Match vs. Durr?

That was a lot of material, and unfortunately I don't feel like being very thorough right now. If you don't get many other responses, poke me and I'll give a better response.

3 very specific things that stuck out to me and I'm sure I have useful advice for: Dins placement, teleport in neutral, and throws. You played a lot of wide open stages (which I think are bad for Zelda) which means that your opponent could just avoid Dins and your placement wasn't super important. However, because of the return trajectory, the direction the Dins is travelling has an effect. In general, when placing Dins at ground/character height, you want Dins to curve up so it also covers jump height when returning, and when placing Dins anywhere above standing height, you want it to curve down so it covers movement space when returning. You had a lot of quick Dins at eye height, so just tap up at the release and your Dins is (usually) more useful! You can also place a Dins after you've finished a combo with the objective of hitting them back toward you. You can also place a huge dins during opponents respawn. After the 4 seconds are up, it will come back to you, and hopefully you've either avoided spawn invuln or are still doing so, and can teleport around the Dins to keep it active.

I teleport in neutral too much, so take this for what you will. I don't think you abused teleport enough. When you did teleport, he was afraid and sat in shield. Perfect! Its also a nice way to immediately join your Dins and use it as a safe haven. Since he always sat in shield, it would be good to either grab or lightning kick. I think I saw you mostly ftilt.

I love fthrow to lightning kick or dthrow to offstage stomp (if their DI sucks, in both cases), but they just don't work against spacies. Upthrow should lead to a lightning kick (or upair, or regrab, or upsmash) until some ridiculously high percent, and even then they are still in the air when any move will at least trade. Bthrow is still useful for when they are at super high percents, but I would never use fthrow or dthrow against spacies except in very specific circumstances.

I also don't think you uptilted once. It doesn't do much for killing in this matchup, but it is still useful for when you need an anti-air with less commitment than upsmash or when you need an all-encompassing disjointed hitbox. Also there were several times when Wolf was falling in hitstun and you could've lightning kicked him for a kill, but because he was directly overhead you went for upair. Don't forget you can jump to one side and lightning kick backwards!

Your movement was very good and I loved the use of Nayru's glide to recover, though sometimes you did it even though you didn't have the space and got bopped. You were very quick with your juggles too, and I thought you edgeguarded well.

 

[4tlas]

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLcSDnlN_g2t5atm8TCaSkvwGjjtLwMIja

This is an entire playlist of all the matches from my most recent tournament. I haven't played much in awhile, so I felt really rusty. I'm on team Insulin Pumps, and I also have several videos of singles play as CSC | Atlas. The best sets to watch (not super stomps either way) are me vs. Yunque (Zelda ditto-ish) and Losers Finals.

Please let me know what you think!

 

[ZGE]

More videos.

http://www.twitch.tv/nextlevelstreaming/b/666524255?t=10h38m15s (Metaknight, W 2-0)
http://www.twitch.tv/nextlevelstreaming/b/666524255?t=10h49m26s (Ganon, W 2-1)
http://www.twitvh.tv/nextlevelstreaming/b/666524255?t=11h53m03s (Luigi, L 1-2 after switching to Game and Watch for games 2 and 3)

I missed some edgeguards, could have used more f-tilt, had a really nice throw setup in game 2 against Ganon but decided to nair instead of fsmash for the kill lol, and... let's just say the end of game 2 against Ganon is pretty hype.

 

[ZGE]

And Atlas you never approach with neutral B. I don't think you should spam it and I know it's unsafe on shield, but if your opponent isn't expecting it you can get a decent punish off of a confirm (grab or up smash chain). I think the commentators said you didn't L-Cancel? In any case, you play way different than I do. You had some really good confirms off of Dins, particularly when it was coming back to you (it's amazing how often people will get hit by that, almost like Link's boomerang lol). Otherwise I'm not really sure what else to say, I did notice a couple times you'd teleport right in front of someone (where they could punish you with a grab or something else). Otherwise uh...

 

[4tlas]

And Atlas you never approach with neutral B. I don't think you should spam it and I know it's unsafe on shield, but if your opponent isn't expecting it you can get a decent punish off of a confirm (grab or up smash chain). I think the commentators said you didn't L-Cancel? In any case, you play way different than I do. You had some really good confirms off of Dins, particularly when it was coming back to you (it's amazing how often people will get hit by that, almost like Link's boomerang lol). Otherwise I'm not really sure what else to say, I did notice a couple times you'd teleport right in front of someone (where they could punish you with a grab or something else). Otherwise uh...

Yeah, I'm not technical at all, so I have to rely on playing rock-paper-scissors. That's what those teleports are. As for neutral B, I tried to work it into my game as an offensive tool but it ended up becoming a bad habit (as every time I hesitate just to think for another moment, it ends up not cancelling, and every time it hits they just shield and punish). I'm still trying to use it to cross up shields, and that's about it. You just reminded me that I should try to use it as a "get onstage" option.

My reads were pretty terrible in these games, as I am out of practice. That's pretty much my whole game since I have no tech, but hey what can you do.

 

[Vitriform]

Atlas, I would say that one of your strongest traits is your use of Din's Fire. Your placement is quite good, you seem comfortable in your conversions off of your Dins, you mix up using it for zoning and as a true projectile, and you utilize the returning wisp hitbox better than most Zelda players I've seen. More generally speaking, you have a very intelligent, calculated, and patient playstyle which plays nicely to Zelda's strengths; I think many players could take a page out of your book where mindgames are concerned.

That being said, I'm going to suggest something that I'm sure you've heard a thousand times before--I strongly urge you to work on incorporating L-canceling and wavedashing/wavelanding into your game. I personally had a ton of trouble learning these at first (probably more than most). I hear all of these stories about people who learned how to wavedash in a few days. It took me almost a full month of practicing roughly half an hour a day to even master the inputs for wavedashing (learning that I prefer to use L instead of R really helped, and it took me a few weeks to discover this), let alone use it with any degree of proficiency, which took me another 2 or 3 months. L-canceling was a bit easier for me (getting to around 30% or 40% consistency only took about 2 weeks), but it still took about 3 months before I could do it with around an 80% average. My wavelands developed along with my wavedashes, but it wasn't until I started drilling platform movement that I was able to properly incorporate them into my game. That probably took another month or two of practice sessions dedicated to just moving around the platforms of Battlefield and Yoshi's Story.

These techniques alone will open so many new doors for you and augment your already proficient neutral game, reads, and fundamentals. L-canceling will assist in gaining previously impossible follow-ups, make certain things less punishable on whiff, and aid in keeping pressure on your opponent. Proper use of wavedashing/wavelanding will improve your spacing, mix up your movement, provide an additional (and extremely useful) OoS option, and give you additional options out of landing, dash, and run.

And for all the people who say these techniques are easy to pick up, I would have to disagree. Getting past the mental block of "I can't do it!" or "Is it really worth it?" is the hardest part. The reality of it is that you will screw up. You will be punished by things you'd ordinarily avoid when you miss inputs for a wavedash or L-cancel. Hell, you'll probably even play worse for a few months, and it'll feel awful. But one day, everything will click and you'll be able to achieve things you never thought possible.

You're already a very competent player, but I think you could be an absolute monster if you took this advice to heart. I've seen you take the occasional game off of players like Poob and Sol; by working on your ATs, I feel like you could win entire sets against players of that caliber.

 

[4tlas]

Atlas, I would say that one of your strongest traits is your use of Din's Fire. Your placement is quite good, you seem comfortable in your conversions off of your Dins, you mix up using it for zoning and as a true projectile, and you utilize the returning wisp hitbox better than most Zelda players I've seen. More generally speaking, you have a very intelligent, calculated, and patient playstyle which plays nicely to Zelda's strengths; I think many players could take a page out of your book where mindgames are concerned.

That being said, I'm going to suggest something that I'm sure you've heard a thousand times before--I strongly urge you to work on incorporating L-canceling and wavedashing/wavelanding into your game. I personally had a ton of trouble learning these at first (probably more than most). I hear all of these stories about people who learned how to wavedash in a few days. It took me almost a full month of practicing roughly half an hour a day to even master the inputs for wavedashing (learning that I prefer to use L instead of R really helped, and it took me a few weeks to discover this), let alone use it with any degree of proficiency, which took me another 2 or 3 months. L-canceling was a bit easier for me (getting to around 30% or 40% consistency only took about 2 weeks), but it still took about 3 months before I could do it with around an 80% average. My wavelands developed along with my wavedashes, but it wasn't until I started drilling platform movement that I was able to properly incorporate them into my game. That probably took another month or two of practice sessions dedicated to just moving around the platforms of Battlefield and Yoshi's Story.

These techniques alone will open so many new doors for you and augment your already proficient neutral game, reads, and fundamentals. L-canceling will assist in gaining previously impossible follow-ups, make certain things less punishable on whiff, and aid in keeping pressure on your opponent. Proper use of wavedashing/wavelanding will improve your spacing, mix up your movement, provide an additional (and extremely useful) OoS option, and give you additional options out of landing, dash, and run.

And for all the people who say these techniques are easy to pick up, I would have to disagree. Getting past the mental block of "I can't do it!" or "Is it really worth it?" is the hardest part. The reality of it is that you will screw up. You will be punished by things you'd ordinarily avoid when you miss inputs for a wavedash or L-cancel. Hell, you'll probably even play worse for a few months, and it'll feel awful. But one day, everything will click and you'll be able to achieve things you never thought possible.

You're already a very competent player, but I think you could be an absolute monster if you took this advice to heart. I've seen you take the occasional game off of players like Poob and Sol; by working on your ATs, I feel like you could win entire sets against players of that caliber.

Thank you very much for the compliment, and I think you worded your argument excellently. There are more reasons why I don't want to learn to wavedash/l-cancel though, and most of them boil down to "I'm a scrub casual".

Essentially, I'm a casual player who is proficient enough at playing the game that I can't play with casuals anymore. So for that reason I don't care to learn those techs. The labwork just isn't for me.

I'm also a scrub in many ways. I value decision-making in games above all-else. If I am going to care about my performance, I want to know that it was my decision-making that won. By pitting my brain against my opponent's brain+tech, I can feel proud that everything I accomplished was through my intellect. None of it was through having more tech skill, since I have none.

I know you're absolutely correct that if I were to learn some tech I'd improve. I sincerely appreciate the consideration you put into the wording of your argument, as well. But it just isn't for me. And for the record, I have won multiple sets against both Sol and Poob!

 

[Vitriform]

Thank you very much for the compliment, and I think you worded your argument excellently. There are more reasons why I don't want to learn to wavedash/l-cancel though, and most of them boil down to "I'm a scrub casual".

Essentially, I'm a casual player who is proficient enough at playing the game that I can't play with casuals anymore. So for that reason I don't care to learn those techs. The labwork just isn't for me.

I'm also a scrub in many ways. I value decision-making in games above all-else. If I am going to care about my performance, I want to know that it was my decision-making that won. By pitting my brain against my opponent's brain+tech, I can feel proud that everything I accomplished was through my intellect. None of it was through having more tech skill, since I have none.

I know you're absolutely correct that if I were to learn some tech I'd improve. I sincerely appreciate the consideration you put into the wording of your argument, as well. But it just isn't for me. And for the record, I have won multiple sets against both Sol and Poob!

If you're satisfied in where you are, then I won't push the matter any further. It's all about what makes the game fun for you.

 

[4tlas]

If you're satisfied in where you are, then I won't push the matter any further. It's all about what makes the game fun for you.

I'd still LOVE strategic, tactical, or theorycraft advice. And some things that are "tech" I eventually worked into my game. Like Shield Grabbing took me a week of friendlies to get used to. And falling back off ledge them jumping up with an aerial took me awhile. Even the very concept of DI was alien to me for a long time. I still don't worry about it much, but I at least DI throws. And crouch cancelling was something I knew nothing about, but I eventually started using it. They were different options I could use with basic tech and controls, so I learned them to give myself more strategic options. Wavedashing is too complicated for me to bother with (I like running, jumping, crouching/crawling, and teleport, nice and simple) and l-cancelling isn't much of a strategic improvement. It just makes my options stronger and therefore gives me more viable ones, but I don't want to have to hit an extra button for that... but maybe 3.6 will have auto-l-cancel!

 

[ZGE]

This isn't video related, but smh I just realized yesterday what you guys meant by "letting go of the stick to snap onto the ledge." I was trying to time b and press it within a 4 frame window lol. Teleporting to the ledge just got wayyyy cooler and wayyyy easier.

 

[Kaeldiar]

This isn't video related, but smh I just realized yesterday what you guys meant by "letting go of the stick to snap onto the ledge." I was trying to time b and press it within a 4 frame window lol. Teleporting to the ledge just got wayyyy cooler and wayyyy easier.

Haha, yeah, no...you don't have to shorten the teleport to "autosnap" from above the ledge. This is a feature that was in Melee, all versions of PM, and I'm pretty sure Brawl and Sm4sh

 

[ZGE]

I'm probably one of the best Zeldas in my area (although almost nobody plays her in Missouri, save for a few) but nobody told me about that mechanic lol. I was trying to show someone how Zelda's movement works while she's teleporting in the air, so I had stopped it frame by frame to illustrate where Zelda was, then on one of the frames bam, she was on the ledge. But that's super cool to know now. Will definitely use it way more now, there's like hardly any risk associated with it.

 

[aznasazin11]

Brand new to Zelda. Took her to my first tournament last week and lost in LF. Warning; I am bad at Zelda. I still don't have the Neutral B land cancel down yet, and I am not sure how to use over B effectively. Anyways here is my set, please mercilessly critique my brand new (and ****ty) Zelda. Also I have 0 experience with the Lucario match up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVeASu8N_Dw

 

[Vitriform]

Brand new to Zelda. Took her to my first tournament last week and lost in LF. Warning; I am bad at Zelda. I still don't have the Neutral B land cancel down yet, and I am not sure how to use over B effectively. Anyways here is my set, please mercilessly critique my brand new (and ****ty) Zelda. Also I have 0 experience with the Lucario match up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVeASu8N_Dw

Your DD game and use of foxtrots was quite good, and you seem to to be solid with reads and reactions.

However, the main things you need to work on are your neutral game and your bread and butter follow ups. You spent most of your time in neutral DDing and trying to get grabs or doing dash attacks, making you predictable, since you weren't utilizing a lot of your options and mixups. The first thing I'd try to do is cut down on the number of dash attacks you use. Although it seems good when you're just out of range and you need something that comes out fast, dash attack is horrible on shield, so spamming it will get you shield grabbed. It's better used as a quick punish when your other options don't have enough range and as a combo extender.

I saw many situations where your opponent gave you plenty of space and you didn't utilize the opportunity to take stage control with a Din. As a general rule of thumb, you should almost always set a Din if your opponent gives you enough space to do so without being punished (there are exceptions, but you'll have to figure these out for yourself, since it's difficult to quantify exactly when options other than setting a Din are optimal at long range). You also never utilized teleport cancels when you had plenty of range to safely do so. Work on shortening the teleport to different distances (and mix it up with teleports straight down to teleport in place, in front of the opponent, on top of the opponent with no shorten, behind the opponent, etc). Teleports also synergize well with your Din's Fires, since the Din can protect your teleport approaches by distracting or scaring the opponent into giving up stage control. Kicks give you another option in neutral. Watch videos of Cosmo or The Lake in Melee to see how they use Lightning Kicks to zone and poke in neutral. It might even be beneficial to do a little Melee Zelda practice just to get an idea of the different ways you can use Kicks. None of her other moves (excepting Dsmash) are good in that game, so it lets you just focus on your SH Kick mixups most of the time. Remember that you can waveland out of an early Kick, poking at your opponent and then quickly retreating, and SHFFL is always an option. You can also do 2 Bairs in 1 SH. Work on land cancelling Nayru's Love, since it's a good approach option (or bait in combination with b-reversing and wavebouncing) and it's not laggy like the grounded version. You have tons of options to explore in neutral, so I recommend spending some time in the lab to see what works for you.

When you finally got a hit or grab, it seemed like you didn't really know what to do to continue a combo. Dthrow is your best throw in most situations; it does the most damage, and it sets up for a regrab, dash attack, or Lighning Kick if incorrectly DI'd. If your opponent DIs properly, you can still techchase. Uthrow is your best combo throw against fast fallers, and it can be a mixup against other characters. Fthrow is a DI mixup with Dthrow and Bthrow. At high percents, you can KO your opponent with Fair off of Fthrow if you condition him or her to DI for Dthrow or Bthrow. Ftilt is your best combo starter, and you can usually get multiple Usmashes out of a low percent Ftilt on Lucario. Sometimes you can chain Usmash out of a dash attack punish. Most Usmash chains will finish with Nair or a Kick, depending on DI and whether or not there's a platform in the way. Experiment with Zelda's combos and see what you can do. Learning your preferred combos will come with more character experience.

Also work on getting your OoS game down. I saw tons of laggy hits on shield that went unpunished. Get used to utilizing your Lightning Kicks in an OoS setting and don't be afraid to let one rip when your opponent hits your shield with a laggy attack. Shield DI can help you get the spacing correct. You can also Usmash or Up-b out of shield to escape shield pressure, and, of course, there's good old shield grab and WD OoS.

 

[4tlas]

Brand new to Zelda. Took her to my first tournament last week and lost in LF. Warning; I am bad at Zelda. I still don't have the Neutral B land cancel down yet, and I am not sure how to use over B effectively. Anyways here is my set, please mercilessly critique my brand new (and ****ty) Zelda. Also I have 0 experience with the Lucario match up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVeASu8N_Dw

Overall, I thought you were pretty good. You did many good things with sideB, and even though you didn't land cancel neutralB at least you didn't try and get killed for it. You played solidly in general, and you seemed to have a good read on your opponent in neutral (he always dash danced and rarely shielded, which you covered with your dash dance + dash attack). My main critique is on your choice of moves.

During that whole set, in which you must have used several hundred moves, I saw: 1 upair, ~5 nairs, 0 dairs, 1 jab, 2 ftilts, 0 uptilts, 0 dtilts, 0 teleport ledge sweetspots, 0 aerial nayrus, 1 dthrow, 0(?) upthrows, and ~10 smashes (total). ~50% of your moves were dash attack, ~30% lightning kick, and ~20% grab, with a few grounded nayrus and lots of Dins (which I'm not counting, you used Dins in many different ways).

Zelda's moveset is very precise and calculated. Due to how slow she is, often only 1 move will hit the proper location at any time. For example, you may find your opponent on top of you, at which point you should nair instead of lightning kick. This also means you can cover multiple options, as I saw you do when jumping up to the Skyworld platform to techchase: you jumped toward him, ready to nair, and when he rolled to the other end of the platform you lightning kicked him instead. Recognizing which situations enable you to choose between multiple moves that would all hit is what makes the difference between an amazing Zelda player and a really good Zelda player, so you should try to experiment with what the different moves do so you can recognize when you had options. I'll give some quick advice about each move and let you explore how you want to use them.

Grounded Nayrus: This makes a good parry move. Use the invuln frames to dodge an attack at the last moment. WAY too laggy to use otherwise unless for hard reads.

Aerial Nayrus: This lets you do a lot of weird things, but the most basic function is to stall you in the air while you surround yourself with hitboxes (like nair, but without rising/falling). If you can land cancel it, use it to cross up shields and to reflect projectiles. If you b-reverse or wavebounce it, use it to give Zelda some horizontal momentum or use it out of hitstun for an even greater effect.

Dins: This move is very flexible and is one of the calling cards that identifies each Zelda player, since with so many options there is very little copying between Zeldas. Use it as a projectile, as a zoner, as an edgeguarder, as a combo extender, etc.

Farores: If you are teleporting from anywhere above a ledge, let go of the control stick before arriving at the ledge to auto-sweetspot it. You can also press b a second time to shorten the teleport, which lets you sweetspot from below, move around the stage, and teleport down to the stage with much less landing lag. You won't have the 4% hitbox, but sometimes its worth it.

Jab: Covers space with little commitment. Use when opponent is likely to approach you and you want some leniency and flexibility.

Ftilt: Reaches out in front of Zelda to start a combo. The range of this move is the ideal distance to space yourself from opponents, as lightning kick also reaches about this far.

Fsmash: Covers space with a lot of commitment. Use when opponent will definitely be in its space or can't punish you anyway.

Uptilt: Reaches out around Zelda with an invulnerable arm to KO opponents. The delay can be used to cover space for a long time, tricking opponents. This is a good kill move.

Upsmash: Covers above Zelda for a long time. Great for comboing.

Dtilt: Meteor Smash inner hitbox is used for popping opponents off the ground or edgeguarding, light hitbox on her foot pops damaged opponents off the ground and reaches low for edgeguarding. Doesn't cause much hitstun, so often the only move you can do out of this is Dsmash, her fastest option. Good with CC.

Dsmash: Fast and knocks opponents away at a low angle. 4 frame startup, like the fastest jabs. Zelda's jab is frame 11, for comparison. Foot is invuln, so you can edgeguard with this move.

Nair: Good for covering Zelda or a lot of space while she moves. Can be used just before landing to briefly stun opponents (which I saw you do). Practice switching which direction you're travelling at the last moment to control which way your opponents get sent.

Fair/Bair: Your use of these was pretty good, though I think you could try to stuff approaches with them more. You seemed to like to go in with these, which is predictable. Good OoS option.

Upair: Great for juggling. Use more.

Dair: Great for styling. Can also be used for edgeguards (occasionally), for finishing a combo into a techchase instead of into a juggle (I've gotten upsmash->upsmash->dair->weak LK jab reset->LK before), and to start a combo against a standing opponent (or huge shield damage if they shield it). Use more, but not too much.

 

[Kaeldiar]

During that whole set, in which you must have used several hundred moves, I saw: 1 upair, ~5 nairs, 0 dairs, 1 jab, 2 ftilts, 0 uptilts, 0 dtilts, 0 teleport ledge sweetspots, 0 aerial nayrus, 1 dthrow, 0(?) upthrows, and ~10 smashes (total). ~50% of your moves were dash attack, ~30% lightning kick, and ~20% grab, with a few grounded nayrus and lots of Dins (which I'm not counting, you used Dins in many different ways).

This is Odds level match analysis O.o Brb while I do the same to my own sets

 

[4tlas]

This is Odds level match analysis O.o Brb while I do the same to my own sets

Is that a good thing? lol, idk.

I just always realize after a full game that I didn't see [insert move here] used once, then I start paying attention. I sometimes go whole games without using dair and more rarely jab, but not using jab is a mistake and not using dair is a conscious decision because I never get a good opportunity, so I move on. But everyone really should find a few uses for each move in a whole SET!

 

[Kaeldiar]

Is that a good thing? lol, idk.

I just always realize after a full game that I didn't see [insert move here] used once, then I start paying attention. I sometimes go whole games without using dair and more rarely jab, but not using jab is a mistake and not using dair is a conscious decision because I never get a good opportunity, so I move on. But everyone really should find a few uses for each move in a whole SET!

It's a very good thing. He'll spend an hour or more on 2 games, stopping every time you get hit and going, "This is why you got hit. Here are 4 other options that would help you NOT get hit in order of best option to worst option. Let me now demonstrate them for you on Dolphin so that you can see how they look."

Analysis of Calm Animal v Sethlon by Odds

 

[4tlas]

It's a very good thing. He'll spend an hour or more on 2 games, stopping every time you get hit and going, "This is why you got hit. Here are 4 other options that would help you NOT get hit in order of best option to worst option. Let me now demonstrate them for you on Dolphin so that you can see how they look."

Analysis of Calm Animal v Sethlon by Odds

This is exactly what I do with people who ask for my advice IRL! I'm not so specific when they aren't playing Zelda/Sheik, but I still do this type of thing.

What I meant by "idk if its a good thing" is that some people don't want you to be so picky, and other people need a different type of advice. I try to provide general principles as well as specific scenarios/examples, so that the player can try and figure out the solutions on their own terms but with a little push away from any wrong directions (rather than in the "right" direction, w/e that is). After all, it wouldn't be advice if I told them to copy me, would it?

 

[Charby]

Hello Guys Marth's Player here.
I am looking for advice in this matchup because I don't really get the way Zelda works.
From what I understood with playing Zelda in freePlay, She's a really defensive character and thrive at punishing whiff moves ( even Marh's D-Tilt), I should never try to approach too aggressively and jump recklessly.
Punishing her with fair if she jumps or grab when she lands or whiff a move.
Also I think this Zelda is really good and but you probably don't know him since he's Japanese Player.

https://youtu.be/Uyfauvy_BFk

 

[Vitriform]

Hello Guys Marth's Player here.
I am looking for advice in this matchup because I don't really get the way Zelda works.
From what I understood with playing Zelda in freePlay, She's a really defensive character and thrive at punishing whiff moves ( even Marh's D-Tilt), I should never try to approach too aggressively and jump recklessly.
Punishing her with fair if she jumps or grab when she lands or whiff a move.
Also I think this Zelda is really good and but you probably don't know him since he's Japanese Player.
https://youtu.be/Uyfauvy_BFk

I believe this matchup is solidly in Marth's favor, but Zelda's weird, so there's a lot of stuff that can catch you off guard if you're unfamiliar with the matchup. When you're playing against Zelda, as you mentioned, you should try to stay grounded as much as possible, and avoid trying to rush her down. I noticed that you were jumping just a bit too much, and you were eating a lot of Lightning Kicks for it. Committing is exactly what Zelda wants you to do because she gets her strongest punishes off of unsafe pressure.

Instead, DD camp her at midrange (close enough that she doesn't feel safe setting a Din, but far enough to avoid getting kicked), bait her into committing, and grab her. In order to properly do this, maintaining stage control is extremely important. If you leave Zelda with enough room to set a drift back Din (jump backwards and B-turnaround), you will have a hard time pressuring her. Slowly advance with your DD, gradually choking off her escape options. You tried to do this on PS2, but you stayed still with your DD, giving her plenty of room to set her Din's Fires, and by then, you were stuck between her and the Din (never a good place to be). You also put yourself near the ledge a lot, especially on the first YS game (see 5:08). Zelda can exert enormous pressure on an opponent with his or her back to the ledge because short-hopped Bair mixups are so potent at walling. Eating a stray Bair or Fair at the ledge can be lethal, especially on the small stages. Keep center stage at all costs; this matchup is all about holding stage control and spacing your moves correctly (from both sides).

Fthrow will chain until about 10% regardless of DI; Zelda's so floaty that she can't tech before you can grab her again. As such, having Zelda at 0% is a great opportunity to try to put her at a positional disadvantage (offstage is ideal), since you'll probably be able to get 3 or so consecutive Fthrows. Above that, if she DIs away, she can escape, so mix up your Fthrows with Dthrows to get follow ups. At mid percents (30% - 60%), Uthrow is your throw of choice, since it puts her above you and sets up for easy juggles. Make sure you are always in tipper range when juggling with Fairs because you'll eat a kick if you get too close. You don't need to worry about this if you're using Utilts or Uairs, since she has no options for dealing with a Marth directly beneath her. Of course, Fthrow and Dthrow maintain their usefulness at mid and high percents as well, so it's worth using them for mixups, especially if you can follow it up with a tipper Fsmash.

You want to force Zelda to up-B or jump to escape your juggles. Edgeguarding her gets much easier if you can dispose of her jump with a well-placed Fair or Uair. Up-B also has around 30 frames of startup in the air, so use this to your advantage. If you can get her off stage without her jump, you should treat her like Sheik; if she's in range for an offstage gimp, then by all means go for it. If not, hold the ledge and force her to recover onstage, then punish the endlag of up-B. Even if she shortens it, she's still stuck in around 20 frames of endlag (more if she does not shorten onto the ground). If she reappears with the hitbox, it's at least 30 frames.

Ftilt and jab are safe, noncommittal options for clanking Din's Fire. You can also use your aerials (Fair is best if you're facing the right way) to clank the Din if you're airborne or run up and shield if you're grounded. After the Din is clanked, it will deactivate the hitbox unless Zelda manually detonates it after it is clanked.

As for stage choices, I'd try to pick relatively small stages with lots of platforms and medium or small blastzones, like WW, YS, YI, and BF, since landing tippers through platforms is extremely useful for pressuring Zelda without committing to unsafe options. In addition, the smaller the stage, the less room she has to run away from your sword.

It seemed like you were starting to get the hang of dealing with Zelda by the end of the set; you were choosing better options and you started to adapt to the matchup. (Your first stock on Smashville was beautiful; that's exactly how you want to play the matchup). Anyway, I hope you can take away something useful from my analysis, and I wish you good luck!

 

[Charby]

Thanks for you analysis.
I agree with you with the neutral game strategy, I should DD closer to prevent Dins and not to far to be able to bait her.
Also , I didn't know her Up-B had 30 frames of startup.
Something I don't know is : Does her Up-B always has an hit box upon landing?

 

[Vitriform]

Thanks for you analysis.
I agree with you with the neutral game strategy, I should DD closer to prevent Dins and not to far to be able to bait her.
Also , I didn't know her Up-B had 30 frames of startup.
Something I don't know is : Does her Up-B always has an hit box upon landing?

Up-B has 32 frames of startup when used in the air (it's 24 when grounded). Also, the Up-B only has a hitbox if it is not shortened. If you see purple sparkles, that means it was shortened, and Zelda will be able to act out of it after 12 frames if she used it while grounded (around 20 if she shortened from air to ground). The reappearance hitbox may be CC'd until around 100% - 130%, depending on the character, and she will have 28 frames of endlag (IASA is frame 22 though) if it's a ground to ground teleport, and 30 frames of endlag if it's an air to ground teleport.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Hey guys! Can I get some advice on my Money Match vs. Durr?

Needs moar up-smash > up-smash > up-smash
But actually, though...abuse the free stuff. It's there for a reason. The play wasn't bad as a whole, but you didn't play the MU, in a MU where you can get 0-deaths or near 0-deaths very easily. You didn't get the punishes you could have. Against fast-fallers, you want to use up-throw and up-smash into kicks, nair, or up-air. F-throw should almost never be used. D-throw isn't bad, but up-throw is generally better. You can get up-throw regrabs and up-smash chains for DAYS against Wolf. If you grab him on FD, there is no excuse for you not to 0-death him. Dreamland, Smashville, GHZ, and PS2 allow for a little of that as well. Up-smash is good because it doesn't send him as high, so it's harder for him to get to a platform. I also did a specific write-up for the Wolf MU in the MU Anthology, so you could check that out if you want some more MU specific tips.

Hello Guys Marth's Player here.
I am looking for advice in this matchup because I don't really get the way Zelda works.
From what I understood with playing Zelda in freePlay, She's a really defensive character and thrive at punishing whiff moves ( even Marh's D-Tilt), I should never try to approach too aggressively and jump recklessly.
Punishing her with fair if she jumps or grab when she lands or whiff a move.
Also I think this Zelda is really good and but you probably don't know him since he's Japanese Player.
https://youtu.be/Uyfauvy_BFk

Can't believe I'm saying this to a Marth, but...you can play a little more aggressively. You're not getting the kinds of punishes you should be, because you're respecting her a little TOO much. Most players make the mistake of not respecting that Zelda actually has good tools. You, however, seem to be going the other way. Play around with Zelda a bit to get a feel for what she can do, particularly with Nayru's, Din's, and Farore's.

F-throw > f-smash at very low %s guarantees a tipper, because she's too big and floaty to DI it out of range. In addition, you can get f-throw > wavedash forward > tipper f-smash at virtually any %, assuming you get the right wavedash distance

Din's can be diffused by hitting it or shielding it. It will lose its hitbox and return to her. She can, however, give it its hitbox back by activating the manual detonation. Between d-tilt and f-air, you can get just about any height Din's out of the way.

Nayru's doesn't have invincibility during the hitboxes, and aerial Nayru's doesn't have invincibility at all

Farore's has tremendous landlag if it is not "perfect shortened" (such that she can act pretty quickly) onto the stage or platform

 

[Vitriform]

Here's a set I had against ES Deff on Saturday. I go relatively even with his Yoshi, but I get absolutely destroyed by his Bowser in game 3.

By the way, sorry about the potato quality video (I didn't record it). It's sadly almost unwatchable in parts due to skipped frames, but I'm hoping for advice nonetheless, since this is my first recorded set against a notable player.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ex5sVQZbptM