Zelda Video Discussion

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Alright, let's rejuvenate this board. What are your impressions from this video? What are some things that you think the Zelda should have avoided doing in this matchup? What opportunities and advantages did the Fox miss?
 

4tlas

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Oh that's a different Sora lol. I was like "what the heck Sora your Fox was amazing vs Zelda last time I played you. Looks like we need to get back to playing regularly!"
 

Kaeldiar

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Alright, let's rejuvenate this board. What are your impressions from this video? What are some things that you think the Zelda should have avoided doing in this matchup? What opportunities and advantages did the Fox miss?
This Fox doesn't seem to use hitboxes...that said, at a brief look, the Zelda did very well with her punish game. Din's placement was very good as well. Would've liked to see more d-smash, and against a more frame-tight Fox, she would've lost a lot of trades or gotten punished. Lux needs to be just a hair faster on the timing. The Fox needs to learn how to Fox.
 
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This Fox doesn't seem to use hitboxes...that said, at a brief look, the Zelda did very well with her punish game. Din's placement was very good as well. Would've liked to see more d-smash, and against a more frame-tight Fox, she would've lost a lot of trades or gotten punished. Lux needs to be just a hair faster on the timing. The Fox needs to learn how to Fox.
I agree. Lux got away with using U-tilt quite a bit, and Sora didn't challenge Lux enough when Lux cast Din's. It was interesting to see Zelda go relatively unpunished for making high commitments. I agree that Lux's punish game was on point. He took what Sora gave him. I see many players not opting to use Zelda's Starfox slayer options in U-throw and U-smash chains.
 
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WhiteCrow

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Alright, let's rejuvenate this board. What are your impressions from this video? What are some things that you think the Zelda should have avoided doing in this matchup? What opportunities and advantages did the Fox miss?
Yo Lux, nice Fox hunting. I really liked your dash dance movement, you threatened a lot of space and got to set traps safely. Even though you didn't get much off of them it was refreshing to see you performing perfect Din's Fire orbits. The technology is very new and unexplored so we need as much footage as we can get. Solid chain grabs, don't be afraid to forward/down throw tech chase at low percents. Fox seemed to be missing a lot of techs. Fewer charged forward smashes, more wave dash OoS. You could improve your OoS options overall. Like the others said this Fox needs to do more Fox things. Nair shining, shine grabbing, up air strings, drill>shine>up smash. He also didn't have a strong understanding of how Din's worked but that's how it goes.
 

4tlas

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dysnPeeZ18A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX15rN3sB8E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCXsgXCcn98
https://youtu.be/B1L60IUtW2o

There is a few of my sets, some of them are better than others. Squirtle and falcon are definitely two of the matchups I struggle against, and there's some pretty gif worthy stuff in the marth one.

Thank you very much.
Didn't watch all of all of the sets, but good capitalization on the Marth. When he missed his DI, you punished well. Your kicks OoS are VERY good, and I wish I could get that many sweetspot kicks OoS. Against Squirtle, stop shielding so much, and consider up-b OoS as an option if you DO find yourself in heavy pressure. It does a great job at hitting shorter characters that avoid up-smash.

Things to work on:
1. Stop shielding when you get scared. It's a habit we've all had at one point or another, particularly because her OoS options are so strong
2. Getting back to stage. Edge-canceling a shortened teleport is an incredibly powerful tool that I think everyone should work on. Also...air dodge. So OP.
3. Watch where you place those Din's! They ended up saving your opponent more than a few times
4. When you feel yourself panicking, take notice and try to actively make a decision.
 

ZGE

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I ended up getting 4th at House of Paign IX and got quite a few matches recorded. Two sets against Vro, one against redbeanjelly, one against Kels and one against Orly. I lost to Kels and Orly.

http://www.hitbox.tv/video/926921

2:08 against Vro
3:00 against Redbeanjelly
3:18 against Kels
4:14 against Vro again (let's just pretend the Bowser match didn't happen lol)
4:57 against Orly
 

4tlas

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I assume you are looking for advice. If not, please disregard everything in this post, and I apologize in advance if my critique comes across harshly.

Ok, after watching several of the matches, I actually started shouting at my screen. I was saying "STOP F*CKING UPSMASHING", referring to the frequency of your teleport upsmashes.

I say this because you are clearly quite capable of performing some amazing things, as I saw in your games. You had some amazing combos, tricky recoveries, you were quick in the neutral, and you had some crazy tech. In many ways, you're already fantastic. The only problems I could see were some REALLY strong habits (not strictly bad habits, but just extremely consistent ones). And unfortunately, that alone can ruin you against top players.

I found it pretty easy to predict where you were going with the teleports, though I understand Zelda's teleport better than your opponents. More importantly, however, you nearly always upsmashed out of teleport, which leaves you stationary for a very long time. This meant that your opponents didn't even need to read where you were going to land a strong punish on you as they had plenty of time to react.

I think I've said this before, but I think you're playing too fast and not thoughtfully enough. Obviously fast is good, but right now it looks like you're relying on that, and you're also acting faster than you're thinking. As for relying on it, you can see in the FoD game vs Redbeanjelly (I think?) that once you start missing some inputs you fall apart. As for acting faster than you're thinking, you can see that in some of your option choices which have absolutely no chance of hitting, like sometimes you were upsmashing on the wrong side of the stage.

You had the most trouble vs the fast characters, and I understand that it can be difficult to deal with their options as Zelda. To beat them you have to read them frequently. I don't know exactly what's going through your head so I can't tell you exactly what you're missing to do that.

One last thing: if you intend to use the transform detonation in any case where you might actually get stuck playing as Sheik, you NEED to work on your Sheik. Even if you don't intend to do that, you accidentally transformed once or twice when trying to do other inputs, and then got destroyed as Sheik.

Again, sorry if any of this comes across as harsh. You looked so dominating and capable in the games you won, but you had trouble with picking the right options in the games you lost. I think you could be a great player, but right now you're playing just the tech game well. (I do the opposite, all brain no tech, so take my advice for what you will)
 

ZGE

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I assume you are looking for advice. If not, please disregard everything in this post, and I apologize in advance if my critique comes across harshly.

Ok, after watching several of the matches, I actually started shouting at my screen. I was saying "STOP F*CKING UPSMASHING", referring to the frequency of your teleport upsmashes.

I say this because you are clearly quite capable of performing some amazing things, as I saw in your games. You had some amazing combos, tricky recoveries, you were quick in the neutral, and you had some crazy tech. In many ways, you're already fantastic. The only problems I could see were some REALLY strong habits (not strictly bad habits, but just extremely consistent ones). And unfortunately, that alone can ruin you against top players.

I found it pretty easy to predict where you were going with the teleports, though I understand Zelda's teleport better than your opponents. More importantly, however, you nearly always upsmashed out of teleport, which leaves you stationary for a very long time. This meant that your opponents didn't even need to read where you were going to land a strong punish on you as they had plenty of time to react.

I think I've said this before, but I think you're playing too fast and not thoughtfully enough. Obviously fast is good, but right now it looks like you're relying on that, and you're also acting faster than you're thinking. As for relying on it, you can see in the FoD game vs Redbeanjelly (I think?) that once you start missing some inputs you fall apart. As for acting faster than you're thinking, you can see that in some of your option choices which have absolutely no chance of hitting, like sometimes you were upsmashing on the wrong side of the stage.

You had the most trouble vs the fast characters, and I understand that it can be difficult to deal with their options as Zelda. To beat them you have to read them frequently. I don't know exactly what's going through your head so I can't tell you exactly what you're missing to do that.

One last thing: if you intend to use the transform detonation in any case where you might actually get stuck playing as Sheik, you NEED to work on your Sheik. Even if you don't intend to do that, you accidentally transformed once or twice when trying to do other inputs, and then got destroyed as Sheik.

Again, sorry if any of this comes across as harsh. You looked so dominating and capable in the games you won, but you had trouble with picking the right options in the games you lost. I think you could be a great player, but right now you're playing just the tech game well. (I do the opposite, all brain no tech, so take my advice for what you will)
Fair enough. I don't think I ever got flustered except in the set against ORLY, nor did I ever "fall apart." As far as my habits go, I noticed I teleported straight down on recoveries a lot of the time and would up smash out of teleport... because it worked a lot of the time and I didn't perceive myself getting punished for it often.

So. I know part of my problem is playing too fast and not thinking ahead. I will admit that readily. What other things would you suggest doing as alternatives? For example, after a telecancel, what should I do instead? (I realize it's all a mixup, but what do you think are some good options?)
 

4tlas

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Fair enough. I don't think I ever got flustered except in the set against ORLY, nor did I ever "fall apart." As far as my habits go, I noticed I teleported straight down on recoveries a lot of the time and would up smash out of teleport... because it worked a lot of the time and I didn't perceive myself getting punished for it often.

So. I know part of my problem is playing too fast and not thinking ahead. I will admit that readily. What other things would you suggest doing as alternatives? For example, after a telecancel, what should I do instead? (I realize it's all a mixup, but what do you think are some good options?)
Well I'm glad you kept your composure! I could have completely misinterpreted what was happening, of course. The upsmashes out of teleport worked well against the opponents you beat and very poorly against the ones you lost to. The problem was you kept doing it even when it wasn't working. That's when you needed to stop doing it.

Some other options out of telecancel include: dashdance, shield, grab, lightning kick, jab, ftilt, dtilt, nair, or land-cancelled Nayrus. One other mixup I saw you use was telecancel away and then throw out Dins.

The other thing is that you don't have to telecancel on top of where you think they'll be. You can telecancel to wedge your opponent inbetween you and a platform, or you and the ledge, or you and a Dins. You can telecancel in place or slightly forward/back in a manner similar to wavedashing.
 

ZGE

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I'll have more videos soon against DeliciousOctorok (won twice), Ripple (lost twice lol, but got a couple games off his ZSS and one off his D3), and DrugFreeChu (won, but he had a bucket that killed me at 0% rofl). I think I did a much better job of thinking about my moves ahead of time and not just going on autopilot. They should be up by the end of the night or tomorrow, I'll post links when they're up.
 

Filosafer

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I took a glance at it a few hours ago. It's interesting that some activity popped up here because I actually got a video as well to share later in the week.
My biggest, number one issue is your use of upB. You seemed to use it every way you shouldn't, and no ways you should. You may think I'm being harsh, too critical, or usage of hyperbole, but I'm not. Sometimes you wouldn't even use your double jump when recovering, and just whip onto stage. You'd use it before drifting any distance, you'd use it and never go for ledge, you'd use it and not sweetspot, etc. And when you used it on stage, you either just whipped in front of him poorly, or you started it in the air, then tried to use it like you were grounded as a movement option. Grounded Farore, you'd just go in, and 10/10 times, cancel it directly or as close to as possible ontop of Deepak. No. Well, yes, but not why you think. Throw it out in neutral, but don't commit to see what he does. LUCKILY, he seemed to be super scared of it, and would shield if he couldn't punish the charge up, which made Farore->grab a good option, but he adjusted quickly, and you didn't. Just go through and see why each upB was bad. Learn to just drift on stage, and use airdodges. 9/10 times recovering, there was ZERO reason to upB. Just drift.
Second was dair. Same issue as before, almost. It seemed like you caught on that DKs hate meteors, even weak ones, but you only hit his upB with dair ONCE. Oh well. It's an OK move, but try to use other moves if you can. Depends on the situation.
Third was Din's, mostly as an edgeguard. Against DK, putting them directly on ledge is bad. His hitbox is disjointed to the sides, and he only moves sideways, which means he'll knock away the din's, and you wasted some time. With Din's, either throw it out to knock out their DJ, throw it low to prevent sweetspot, or put it on stage to cover an option. Putting it at roll-from-ledge distance is OP, because if you stand just outside of getup attack, you're guaranteed a LK, almost. Results may vary.

Someone else can/might explain more about habits and each situation, but this was all at first glance.
 

esoterics

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I took a glance at it a few hours ago. It's interesting that some activity popped up here because I actually got a video as well to share later in the week.
My biggest, number one issue is your use of upB. You seemed to use it every way you shouldn't, and no ways you should. You may think I'm being harsh, too critical, or usage of hyperbole, but I'm not. Sometimes you wouldn't even use your double jump when recovering, and just whip onto stage. You'd use it before drifting any distance, you'd use it and never go for ledge, you'd use it and not sweetspot, etc. And when you used it on stage, you either just whipped in front of him poorly, or you started it in the air, then tried to use it like you were grounded as a movement option. Grounded Farore, you'd just go in, and 10/10 times, cancel it directly or as close to as possible ontop of Deepak. No. Well, yes, but not why you think. Throw it out in neutral, but don't commit to see what he does. LUCKILY, he seemed to be super scared of it, and would shield if he couldn't punish the charge up, which made Farore->grab a good option, but he adjusted quickly, and you didn't. Just go through and see why each upB was bad. Learn to just drift on stage, and use airdodges. 9/10 times recovering, there was ZERO reason to upB. Just drift.
Second was dair. Same issue as before, almost. It seemed like you caught on that DKs hate meteors, even weak ones, but you only hit his upB with dair ONCE. Oh well. It's an OK move, but try to use other moves if you can. Depends on the situation.
Third was Din's, mostly as an edgeguard. Against DK, putting them directly on ledge is bad. His hitbox is disjointed to the sides, and he only moves sideways, which means he'll knock away the din's, and you wasted some time. With Din's, either throw it out to knock out their DJ, throw it low to prevent sweetspot, or put it on stage to cover an option. Putting it at roll-from-ledge distance is OP, because if you stand just outside of getup attack, you're guaranteed a LK, almost. Results may vary.

Someone else can/might explain more about habits and each situation, but this was all at first glance.
Don't worry about being too harsh, this is exactly what I was looking for.
For the first point, it would certainly explain why I felt pretty helpless near the end of game three, when it seemed that every recovery would result in being grabbed/uair'd.
I have a habit with using Dair more than I should with almost every character I play. Marth reflexes kicking in. I should probably be replacing it with Fair/Bair in neutral I assume?
As far as Dins Goes, it seems I have gotten into the habit of treating ever character like they have a tether recovery. Placing it in position to catch roll onstage sounds really useful and I hadn't thought of that.
Thank you for taking the time to watch and comment!
 

ZGE

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Filosafer

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Don't worry about being too harsh, this is exactly what I was looking for.
For the first point, it would certainly explain why I felt pretty helpless near the end of game three, when it seemed that every recovery would result in being grabbed/uair'd.
That's good. And it was pretty disparaging watching especially game three for that reason. It was obvious that he was learning your recovery, and punishing you for it. If you were to fix ONLY your use of upB, it could've been an easy win, no exaggeration

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dapE2NTRUiY (first set against Ripple (ZSS/D3))
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV_Nmc9vi_g (second set against Ripple (D3))
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKExeyOwWY0 (first set against Octo (Ness))
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4w9bCaO0aM (second set against Octo (Ness))
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dORWoU9eEOk (against Drugfreechu (Game and Watch))
Didja want critique, ZGE?
.
 

ZGE

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That's good. And it was pretty disparaging watching especially game three for that reason. It was obvious that he was learning your recovery, and punishing you for it. If you were to fix ONLY your use of upB, it could've been an easy win, no exaggeration


Didja want critique, ZGE?
.
If you want, sure. I know that especially against Ripple I was a bit impatient and had some really bad dash attacks. I've also never played a D3 like that either, so in the first set especially I didn't know what to expect.
 
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Filosafer

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https://youtu.be/Eb7wuAv2o6E (v Bag(Fox))

Got my set! I normally don't do well against this guy, but I tried my Zelda just because he's a Melee Fox, and it worked REALLY well. You'll see a lot of rust and unfamiliarity, but feel free to critique. I excessively dash attack, and that's most of said rust.

If you want, sure. I know that especially against Ripple I was a bit impatient and had some really bad dash attacks. I've also never played a D3 like that either, so in the first set especially I didn't know what to expect.
Well, I know you know, so I'll just give a few tips judging by the first game.
First and foremost, a lot of unsafe din's. Since din's take a long time and cause a lot of lag, it requires the opponent to be forced knockdown, or to be far away. With ZSSs speed, it's especially difficult to use onstage. Try not to against fast characters, unless you're so confident, you could do it twice.
I also see a lot of whiffed grabs because you're not respecting ZSSs aerials on shield, and then you miss perfect grab opportunities. Just something to work on.
As for DDD, I can't help much. I ****in' hate playing big characters as Zelda, as her LK sourspot has the highest priority. You generally have to stick with uthrow and uairs for kills reliably, as well as fthrow a lot for combos.
I like your usage of nB.
 
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Finally got a streamed set that made it onto youtube instead dying as temporary vods lol. More to come, now that my preferred weekly is starting to upload them there. Skip to 5:50 for Zelda
https://youtu.be/Uo9vw76nqNo
Your use of ribbon hit warms my heart <3 Excellent play, but stay under control. Movement was fast, but a bit messy, causing you to miss follow-ups. Don't be afraid to slow down a bit
 

4tlas

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6BDd9VaJ9M
Yo can i hear some constructive criticism? My only match on stream for the big balc.

P.S. I know i teleport too much
"Teleport too much" is not very accurate. You teleport a ton, but I disagree that it is too much. Sometimes you have to risk the unsafe teleports for those times when you get the hard reads like you often did in this set. The reward is sometimes worth the risk.

So a better way to describe it is "do the right teleports, and do the right ones well". In the first game, you had some times where you got a good Teleport but then didn't do anything. Seemed like you needed to warm up, but once you did you were playing very well.

Speaking of, I love your playstyle. I think it is similar to mine, but you are faster and more consistent. Basically, I think you're doing most things I do, but better, except for the Teleports, which is a mixed bag. The bad teleports were some (not all) of the ones you didn't do anything out of, and the ones you did out of habit. There was one or two where you started the upB but drifted off the ground first (tap jump?), and while you readjusted to teleport into the ground, you still did so aggressively and got punished for it.

You play fast and loose with the ledge, which cost you game 1. You also seem to always ledge dash, which should get punished. Any "always" is automatically bad, as is any "never". Perhaps be more careful? If you want to play high risk high reward, go ahead though.

I'd love to see you play more. Great stuff!
 

Filosafer

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6BDd9VaJ9M
Yo can i hear some constructive criticism? My only match on stream for the big balc.

P.S. I know i teleport too much
Everything 4tlas said. Your main issues were adapting. He was jumping out of fthrow, and punishing you with uair dsmash consistently. He also has a tether recovery, so placing a Din's at edge doesn't do anything, the better option is to run to ledge and grab. His recovery fade back mixup doesn't work on Zelda. The moment he flicks up, LK.
EDIT: If you're too far away to grab edge easily, place Dins' in locations that prevent getup options, then get ready to punish what he does.
A few times you had a nice punish open, but would teleport somewhere else. I can't find the example I was thinking of, but there was one point on the right plat of DL that made me do the motion with my fingers with no controller.
As for recovery, it was usually the same stuff. You can wiggle/LK out of tumble btw. Also NL gives a little horizontal boost. Few mixups. 4tlas said there were a lot of ledge dashes, but you were so rarely on ledge. That's not a bad thing, but landing on stage with FW has a bit of end lag: a lot more than grounded FW, but less than Shiek's vanish. Regardless, just drifting back to ledge and using airdodges are good starts to recovering. Also snapping to ledge with FW.

@4:53, the teleport grounds him on plat. This was not react-able to punish in any way, but that might be hype as **** to practice. I'm going to look into this.
 
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Filosafer

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It really came down to escaping his pressure. I'd say Sonic is just an awful terrible matchup for Zelda, and you have to focus on safety in zoning more than most of the cast. You have to play it like it is: one opening and he's in, and he's hard to get out. You had a few points on GHZ where you were doing this really well. You'd have a din's on the ground behind you, or be throwing out moves with quick IASA as a warning and so forth. You were winning the neutral on GHZ more than Yoshi's, and I think it had to do with the fear of it being his CP. To be honest, smaller stages work against Zelda here. We can't approach reliably, and against someone we have to zone against, it's better to give them room and wait for them to **** up by slowly taking it back. I figured you'd be hyper aggressive when you picked YS, but instead you were just playing aggressive zoning. He won because of those early kills, but you know that. Gotta be able to play against that.

The key to these games was simply conversions. Where you'd take the one or two hits, and 15-odd percent, he'd convert into stage position and a little more percent. You also had a lot of trouble returning to neutral, which is to be expected, but you weren't utilizing the tools you have to return. No NL offstage, no sweetspot FW, few airdodges, few defensive Din's. It was a very linear recovery/come down without taking advantage of our drift and recovery ability, so he'd take advantage of that.

I just woke up, so there's some unfinished sentences here, and I couldn't notice any adjusting to habits. (shrug) Overall, you won, so 10/10.
 

ZGE

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I also have a few matches for your viewing pleasure.

Romance (Roy, Zelda): https://www.twitch.tv/topcitysmash/v/75867613t=0h28m
FlashingFire (Snake): https://www.twitch.tv/topcitysmash/v/75874643?t=0h19m44s
Frizz (Fox): https://www.twitch.tv/topcitysmash/v/75874643?t=1h39m54s (my only Zelda game against him, go about seven minutes earlier to see a couple Game and Watch matches)
Eikelmann (Ganon, Bowser): https://www.twitch.tv/topcitysmash/v/75874643?t=1h44m40s

I feel pretty decent other than some panic habits I had particularly against Eikelmann. Also I don't know how to deal with Fox still.
 
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Reviving Death Thread

I'm not sure how active this board is anymore but here is a video of me playing if you want to discuss my play and i guess the general matchup in some depth.

Zelda vs. Ivysaur

I hate this matchup. I'm pretty bad at dealing with the disjoint and the razor leafs. My inability to have a good out of shield option for razor leaf in this match really hindered me, and prevented me from winning the war of attrition. I got corned and pressured a lot and didn't really deal with it well for most of the match.

I think Zelda loses this matchup, though I don't think it is as bad as some of her other matchups like Marth.

Any tips or suggestions would be appreciated.
I don't effectively utilize telecanceling in my gameplay very well so that's definitely one area of improvement I could work on.
I also maybe should grab the ledge more against Ivy while he' s offstage instead of trying to set up a Dins, but I'm not really sure about that.
 

4tlas

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Yeah, the board is pretty dead. We mostly use Discord now, if you want a link.

There arent really good OoS options against Razor Leaf. The best option is to not shield it at all. Go around it, give up space to it then teleport past your opponent, teleport through it, or reflect it. Mix these up for best results.

The vines are difficult to get past, and Ivy should be able to almost full-to-death you. Its pretty ridiculous, but there it is. I find good teleporting to be critical to get past the zoning of the vines and arrive before the next move comes out, but wavedash->shield might work too. I wouldn't know, since I can't wavedash, but I feel it hinders me greatly in this particular matchup.

About the ledge: good Ivys will razor leaf at the ledge to force you off of it, and if you dont get on it they will tether before you get there. Avoid this by putting dins at the ledge so they must razor leaf to get rid of the Dins *as* you sneak in and grab ledge. Easy lightning kick, and sometimes lightning stomp. You can also put the Dins above the ledge and watch them squirm, since stalling on ledge for too long as a tether character is not wise (if you do hit them, they only have 1 more chance to get back, now with no mixup). Usually they will rush to get onstage and you can read their limited options.

Note that this is all general advice. I didn't have time to watch the video, sorry!
 
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