Zelda Using Light Arrows (Final Smash Picture)

[Zoo-bellocks]

OrlanduEX, your logic is beyond terrible.

You think people are saying Sheik can't be in because Zelda has a TP design. That is only part of the problem.

The real problem is that Sheik DOES NOT DESERVE to be a playable character.

I will explain why WITHOUT mentioning their playability in Melee.

Sheik was in ONE game. Yes, it was a successful game, and a very popular game. But it was still ONE GAME in a very large series. Not only was Sheik in one game, but she was a minor character. Her only role was to teach Link songs on the ocarina. Furthermore, Sheik wasn't even a true character, but a disguise. And you have the nerve to compare her to Pit, Lucas and the Ice Climbers? They are MAIN characters in their games. They represent their entire series, even if the series is small. What does Sheik represent? I mean really. Does the fact that one incarnation of Zelda disguised herself really warrant the creation of a new character?

Then you say that she shouldn't be removed because she has a "great move set" and you ignorantly compare her to Ken, a staple character of one of the longest running fighting franchise games there is. I've got news for you: Smash isn't just another fighting game. It's a game that represents the history of Nintendo. Sheik is a speck of dust in relation to Nintendo in the grand scheme of things. Even more so than Ice Climbers (who represent the Famicom era, according to Sakurai, not just their own game). Sakurai has already stated that he will remove characters. What makes Sheik so special that she shouldn't be touched? All the characters in the game have fans. Some people will be sad to see Dr. Mario and Pichu go, but tough luck. Same should go for Sheik. She isn't any more important than most of the other characters people pick on and want removed. It wouldn't be impossible to just hand her move set over to another character anyway. Considering Sheik's move set is entirely improvised, it's not unthinkable that they could just reskin her and make her a new character with more relevance to the series (like Impa).

Lastly, you say that personal feelings should not be used as an argument. Try taking your own advice.

 

[pyroroth]

OrlanduEX, your logic is beyond terrible.

You think people are saying Sheik can't be in because Zelda has a TP design. That is only part of the problem.

The real problem is that Sheik DOES NOT DESERVE to be a playable character.

I will explain why WITHOUT mentioning their playability in Melee.

Sheik was in ONE game. Yes, it was a successful game, and a very popular game. But it was still ONE GAME in a very large series. Not only was Sheik in one game, but she was a minor character. Her only role was to teach Link songs on the ocarina. Furthermore, Sheik wasn't even a true character, but a disguise. And you have the nerve to compare her to Pit, Lucas and the Ice Climbers? They are MAIN characters in their games. They represent their entire series, even if the series is small. What does Sheik represent? I mean really. Does the fact that one incarnation of Zelda disguised herself really warrant the creation of a new character?

Then you say that she shouldn't be removed because she has a "great move set" and you ignorantly compare her to Ken, a staple character of one of the longest running fighting franchise games there is. I've got news for you: Smash isn't just another fighting game. It's a game that represents the history of Nintendo. Sheik is a speck of dust in relation to Nintendo in the grand scheme of things. Even more so than Ice Climbers (who represent the Famicom era, according to Sakurai, not just their own game). Sakurai has already stated that he will remove characters. What makes Sheik so special that she shouldn't be touched? All the characters in the game have fans. Some people will be sad to see Dr. Mario and Pichu go, but tough luck. Same should go for Sheik. She isn't any more important than most of the other characters people pick on and want removed. It wouldn't be impossible to just hand her move set over to another character anyway. Considering Sheik's move set is entirely improvised, it's not unthinkable that they could just reskin her and make her a new character with more relevance to the series (like Impa).

Lastly, you say that personal feelings should not be used as an argument. Try taking your own advice.

Being that sheik is just a disguise as you say that makes her just zelda.. so she then DOES represent the entire series

 

[OrlanduEX]

Who ever said that characters from other games weren't going to be in? I don't recall it. The issue is Sheik, not Tetra, Future Link, Navi, Tingle whatever. Don't try to compare apples and oranges. And who are you to decide whether Zelda is the same or not? We are saying that Zelda has the potential to be different this time around, and we are hoping that Sakurai sees that too. That is all. Brawl Zelda =/= Melee Zelda. If all the characters were the same as their Melee incarnates, there'd be no point for a sequel.
Sheik absolutely does bring down Zelda. Not because Zelda is lacking one move, but because Sheik wouldn't have been noticed/remembered/wanted for the SSB series if she weren't in. But now that she is, and was immensely popular for her pathetically easy playstyle, Zelda is now seemingly stuck with her for the end of time. Perhaps that frustrates the few who actually use the main character instead of the useless alter-ego?
Sheik's removal from Brawl would influence all of three people not to buy it.
Smart business move my fanny.
There also isn't a good reason to include Sheik! So she was popular in Melee, So were a whole host of characters that were popular in Melee, doesn't mean they'll all be in Brawl. Popularity doesn't guarantee inclusion. Face it, your reasons for Sheik's inclusion are based upon your feelings towards her as well.

First of all, you are obviously biased against Sheik and you're not looking at the facts here.

"Sheik wouldn't have been noticed/remembered/wanted for the SSB series if she weren't in. But now that she is, and was immensely popular for her pathetically easy playstyle, Zelda is now seemingly stuck with her for the end of time."

The heck is this? You're just ranting about how useless YOU think Sheik is and how YOU think she is pathetically easy she is to use.
That's just your opinion. It's not a fact, and it OBVIOUSLY wasn't the opinion of the development team for Melee.
No one's forcing you to use Sheik.

Removing Sheik wouldn't stop anyone from buying the game, but it would piss off many people. I think it's obvious to everyone now that Brawl is a game for the fans. Sakurai really does care about the fans of the Smash series. Why do you think he would just flip off all his fans by removing one of their favorite characters? YOU don't like Sheik, but lots of other people DO. Is that so hard to comprehend?

And do you honestly think that a character's popularity in Melee wasn't one of the main factors that the Brawl development team considered when deciding the roster? You're right in that no character is guaranteed, but we've already seen that a character's popularity among fans has VERY MUCH to do with their inclusion in Brawl. Marth got into Melee strictly because of his immense popularity in Japan. Most of the Brawl newcomers are characters who placed highly on Sakurai's popularity poll.

And @ Stiputation.

I don't really think that the developers of Melee were reading into this NEARLY as much as you say. You say that Sheik was supposed to be the Combo specialist and Zelda the KO specialist. While it sounds nice, this seems rather arbitrarily contrived. If this were the case, wouldn't Zelda have way more powerful KO moves than she does and wouldn't Sheik have way less? Sheik has plenty of combo AND KO moves, and Zelda has about 2 good moves in her whole movelist.
It seems more to me that the developers simply gave each character in Melee a movelist that reflects who they are as a character, and Zelda's and Sheik's do that pretty well, despite the great imbalance between them.

I agree that separating Zelda and Sheik would make sense now, but considering it has been confirmed that Zelda uses her OoT magic moves in Brawl, despite her TP appearance (and the fact that those moves were never hers in the first place), I think we can rule out the "continuity" argument.

I mean, Ness always used Paula's moves. This didn't make any sense in the continuity of Smash 64 or Melee, and Lucas' moves STILL don't make sense in Brawl.

Well those last 2 paragraphs weren't really directed at you, Stippy, I was just ranting.

@ Zoo Bellocks.

The thing you're missing here is that YOU CAN'T JUST IGNORE SHEIK'S IMPORTANCE AND POPULARITY IN MELEE.
Now matter how many games she's been in or her role, Brawl is a game FOR THE FANS. You can't deny that. And the majority of Smash fans want Sheik back as a PC.
That is reason enough to include her in Brawl.

Try to think like Sakurai here. Why would Sakurai remove Sheik from the roster? I've already shown that continuity is not his top priority, so it doesn't matter than Zelda is in her TP costume.
Why would Sakurai let down all the fans who expect Sheik to come back?

 

[Iris]

Who are you to say that Sheik shouldn't be in Brawl?
Do ALL the Zelda characters have to come from Twilight Princess?

All the ones attached to Zelda had sure better come from TP, or at least look like they did. It'd be completely insane to use Zelda's TP model and Sheik's OoT model. Also, you have no more right to say she should be in than we have to say she shouldn't be in Zelda's moveset.

What if WW Link makes it in? Just because Link and Zelda are updated to their TP incarnations doesn't mean other Zelda characters can't get in. Do you honestly think that TP is the only relevant Zelda game now? And stop making it seem like Zelda is this all new character because she got a new costume and a few moves got renamed. She is still fundamentally the same Zelda.

No ones saying that non-TP characters can't get in, simply that they shouldn't be sharing a character slot with one who is. Unless of course a TP Link to WW Link transformation makes any sense to you. As long as she goes without an update, she still can't be considered the same or different Zelda. However, seeing a TP inspired Final Smash proves that Zelda isn't just TP-related in appearance.

Sheik doesn't bring down Zelda.

Yes she does. Why do you think Zelda was purposely weakened in specific aspects? Because she ran slow in OoT and only jumped so high?

They're separate characters with their own movesets.

No they're not. They were the same character, canonically and in character slot, with their own incomplete movesets.

OK so Zelda has no down B. Would it REALLY make a difference? Would that one move make her an amazing character? Rather unlikely.

I don't know, would no F-air or B-air really make a difference? It depends on the move, but at least she'd have equal potential.

Zelda would've most likely sucked in Melee without Sheik and she would've been used just as little as she is now.

She DID suck in Melee when you didn't use Sheik, that was the problem! We can't say she'd be played the same because she would've played totally different had they not built her in tandem with Sheik!

And who CARES how many games Sheik's been in?
Pit, Lucas and Ice Climbers all come from one game also. All rather unimportant games for that matter.
Sheik was a main character in the most popular Zelda game. Are you telling me that she deserves to be in less than these guys?

Yes. They were the main characters of their game and hold far more relevance to Nintendo than a one-time only disguise. Of course, just because they deserve it more doesn't mean we expected them.

Now look at it from the perspective of a fighting game developer.
Why would Nintendo remove a widely used character with a great moveset? What does Sakurai stand to gain? That would be like removing Ken from Street Fighter.
Wouldn't that piss off more fans than it would please? Would that be a smart business move?

The character was widely used because it was broken, and movesets are transferrable. It wouldn't be like removing Ken from Street Fighter, it'd be like removing Big the Cat from the next huge Sonic game. I'm sure that even if it ticks off more people than it pleases, the majority of gamers will be apathetic. Do you really think a casual gamer is going to pick up SSBB and say "WTF, didn't the kid with the yo-yo and bat have a baseball cap on last time?" and throw the game down in rage?

And my logic is not "Sheik should be in Brawl because some people on a forum said something stupid." My logic is that there isn't a good reason to remove Sheik and your personal feelings about her in terms of love or hate should not be used as an argument for her removal in Brawl.

Except no one here hates Sheik and wants her gone because of it. If you think that none of our objections on why Sheik shouldn't be a part of Zelda are viable then you are biased and wrong.

 

[Ztarfish]

First of all, you are obviously biased against Sheik and you're not looking at the facts here.

"Sheik wouldn't have been noticed/remembered/wanted for the SSB series if she weren't in. But now that she is, and was immensely popular for her pathetically easy playstyle, Zelda is now seemingly stuck with her for the end of time."

The heck is this? You're just ranting about how useless YOU think Sheik is and how YOU think she is pathetically easy she is to use.
That's just your opinion. It's not a fact, and it OBVIOUSLY wasn't the opinion of the development team for Melee.
No one's forcing you to use Sheik.

Ew seriously? Did you just say all that? Hmm where should I start.. Oh I know. First of all Sheik was pathetically easy to use in a casual setting. That's not opinion, that's fact. Perhaps not in a tournament setting, but every character is hard to use in a tournament setting, so that's irrelevant. Sheik is not useless in melee, Sheik is useless in OoT. Could the developers of OoT erased Sheik and had Link learn the temple songs through stones or the sages? Of course. Could they make a Zelda game without Zelda appearing at some point? Of course not. The opinion of the developers was "wouldn't it be cool if a character had a unique mechanic that none of the other characters have that allows her to switch between two movesets?" not "Sheik has to be in Melee"

And I'm well aware no one's forcing me to use Sheik. What's your point?

Removing Sheik wouldn't stop anyone from buying the game, but it would piss off many people. I think it's obvious to everyone now that Brawl is a game for the fans. Sakurai really does care about the fans of the Smash series. Why do you think he would just flip off all his fans by removing one of their favorite characters? YOU don't like Sheik, but lots of other people DO. Is that so hard to comprehend?

Why do they like Sheik? Because she was good in Melee. And for that reason, the pathetic alter-ego is stuck with her for all time. That's what I had said. Read. I don't like Sheik because she is seemingly immune to the cut. Characters that are likely to be cut deserve to be in Brawl much more than Sheik does yet Sheik seems to be staying. What does that say? Sakurai is willing to cater to popularity and not innovation?

Had Sheik sucked, no one would care about her return to Brawl
Zelda did suck and many people do care about her return to Brawl for reasons other than Sheik.

And do you honestly think that a character's popularity in Melee wasn't one of the main factors that the Brawl development team considered when deciding the roster? You're right in that no character is guaranteed, but we've already seen that a character's popularity among fans has VERY MUCH to do with their inclusion in Brawl. Marth got into Melee strictly because of his immense popularity in Japan. Most of the Brawl newcomers are characters who placed highly on Sakurai's popularity poll.

Newcomers and Veterans are a very different species. Sakurai has to pick new characters in terms of popularity because if he chose characters that were wildly unpopular, he'd have a problem. Veterans become popular because of the way they play in the predecessing game. Newcomers don't have such a problem. Pichu and Mewtwo were extremely unpopular because they were frankly very bad in Melee. Does that mean they should get cut even though they were both very unique? Therein lies the problem.

 

[OrlanduEX]

All the ones attached to Zelda had sure better come from TP, or at least look like they did. It'd be completely insane to use Zelda's TP model and Sheik's OoT model. Also, you have no more right to say she should be in than we have to say she shouldn't be in Zelda's moveset.
No ones saying that non-TP characters can't get in, simply that they shouldn't be sharing a character slot with one who is. Unless of course a TP Link to WW Link transformation makes any sense to you. As long as she goes without an update, she still can't be considered the same or different Zelda. However, seeing a TP inspired Final Smash proves that Zelda isn't just TP-related in appearance.
Yes she does. Why do you think Zelda was purposely weakened in specific aspects? Because she ran slow in OoT and only jumped so high?
No they're not. They were the same character, canonically and in character slot, with their own incomplete movesets.
I don't know, would no F-air or B-air really make a difference? It depends on the move, but at least she'd have equal potential.
She DID suck in Melee when you didn't use Sheik, that was the problem! We can't say she'd be played the same because she would've played totally different had they not built her in tandem with Sheik!
Yes. They were the main characters of their game and hold far more relevance to Nintendo than a one-time only disguise. Of course, just because they deserve it more doesn't mean we expected them.
The character was widely used because it was broken, and movesets are transferrable. It wouldn't be like removing Ken from Street Fighter, it'd be like removing Big the Cat from the next huge Sonic game. I'm sure that even if it ticks off more people than it pleases, the majority of gamers will be apathetic. Do you really think a casual gamer is going to pick up SSBB and say "WTF, didn't the kid with the yo-yo and bat have a baseball cap on last time?" and throw the game down in rage?
Except no one here hates Sheik and wants her gone because of it. If you think that none of our objections on why Sheik shouldn't be a part of Zelda are viable then you are biased and wrong.

Read my other post. Continuity and logic are not necessarily important factors in determining the movelists of characters in Smash Bros. It was never stated that Brawl Zelda was specifically TP Zelda. If Brawl Zelda was TP Zelda specifically, she wouldn't be using Link's magical spells from OoT.
Brawl Zelda is a representative of both OoT and TP Zeldas. Her transforming into Sheik really shouldn't be that incomprehensible.

And I still thing it's a stretch to say that Zelda sucks because she was made to swap back and forth with Sheik to be effective.
Pokemon Trainer's pokemon are meant to swap. That's why they have a fatigue system and they switch in relatively small frame window.
The Zelda/Sheik transformation obviously wasn't meant to be done that frequently considering how long it took to complete, and the fact that both could be used from the very start of the match. If Zelda was supposed to switch with Sheik to be effective, the system would've been more streamlined and the game would have made it much more clear that Zelda and Sheik need each other to work.
But that wasn't the case. Sheik was just fine without Zelda, and Zelda just happened to be given a bunch of crappy moves. Nothing was stopping the development team from giving Zelda a more solid set of tilts and smashes instead of just two really strong air moves. They just felt that Zelda's movelist was appropriate for her personality.

And like I said, I honestly wouldn't mind at all if Zelda and Sheik were separated. In fact, I don't really care for Sheik per say. She's just a costume. Ness wasn't a big deal because he wasn't that popular anyway and his moveset was transferred to Lucas. If Sheik's moveset were transferred to another character, that'd be cool too. But to say that a popular and perfectly unique character moveset should be thrown away for any reason really doesn't make sense to me from any perspective.

Ew seriously? Did you just say all that? Hmm where should I start.. Oh I know. First of all Sheik was pathetically easy to use in a casual setting. That's not opinion, that's fact. Perhaps not in a tournament setting, but every character is hard to use in a tournament setting, so that's irrelevant. Sheik is not useless in melee, Sheik is useless in OoT. Could the developers of OoT erased Sheik and had Link learn the temple songs through stones or the sages? Of course. Could they make a Zelda game without Zelda appearing at some point? Of course not. The opinion of the developers was "wouldn't it be cool if a character had a unique mechanic that none of the other characters have that allows her to switch between two movesets?" not "Sheik has to be in Melee"

And I'm well aware no one's forcing me to use Sheik. What's your point?

Why do they like Sheik? Because she was good in Melee. And for that reason, the pathetic alter-ego is stuck with her for all time. That's what I had said. Read. I don't like Sheik because she is seemingly immune to the cut. Characters that are likely to be cut deserve to be in Brawl much more than Sheik does yet Sheik seems to be staying. What does that say? Sakurai is willing to cater to popularity and not innovation?

Had Sheik sucked, no one would care about her return to Brawl
Zelda did suck and many people do care about her return to Brawl for reasons other than Sheik.

Newcomers and Veterans are a very different species. Sakurai has to pick new characters in terms of popularity because if he chose characters that were wildly unpopular, he'd have a problem. Veterans become popular because of the way they play in the predecessing game. Newcomers don't have such a problem. Pichu and Mewtwo were extremely unpopular because they were frankly very bad in Melee. Does that mean they should get cut even though they were both very unique? Therein lies the problem.

Sheik's difficulty of use aside, it doesn't matter what role she played in OoT. It matters that she was a very popular character in Melee.
Of course fans love her just because she was good. Why wouldn't they?
You seem caught up on the idea that only main characters should be PC's in Brawl. Why? Do you think that Jigglypuff and Mewtwo should be cut too because they aren't main characters?
Sakurai has to appease fans of many game series's, so why shouldn't he appease Melee's fans?
Pichu is extremely unpopular AND a clone. Of course he deserves to go. But Mewtwo is VERY popular among Pokemon fans even now. While Melee fans don't care for him, they're not the only ones who matter. Just like Zelda fans aren't the only ones who matter.
Sheik, or at least her moveset, should get in due to her/its popularity in Melee just as much as Mewtwo should get in due to his popularity in general, despite not being that popular in Melee.

 

[Ztarfish]

And I still thing it's a stretch to say that Zelda sucks because she was made to swap back and forth with Sheik to be effective.
Pokemon Trainer's pokemon are meant to swap. That's why they have a fatigue system and they switch in relatively small frame window.
The Zelda/Sheik transformation obviously wasn't meant to be done that frequently considering how long it took to complete, and the fact that both could be used from the very start of the match. If Zelda was supposed to switch with Sheik to be effective, the system would've been more streamlined and the game would have made it much more clear that Zelda and Sheik need each other to work.
But that wasn't the case. Sheik was just fine without Zelda, and Zelda just happened to be given a bunch of crappy moves. Nothing was stopping the development team from giving Zelda a more solid set of tilts and smashes instead of just two really strong air moves. They just felt that Zelda's movelist was appropriate for her personality.

Have you ever played Zelda? =/
Because:
1. PT's and Zelda's transformation times are very similar. Zelda's may be a tad longer, but it's not as long as you seem to think it is.
2. I recall the game's manual reinforcing the idea that the two should be used in tandem.
3. Zelda's moves weren't crappy. What was crappy was that she was slow, extremely unmaneuverable, had incredibly specific sweetspots, and her smashes while powerful were incredibly easy to DI out of.

Zelda had an entire arsenal of extremely powerful moves, you were just unable to make any of them work for the most part.

Sheik, was an incredible combo-er and because of that she could rack up damage like no other. Thus why her main kill move (Fair) was so effective. Her Fair at low damages is of incredibly low effectiveness, only being capable of killing at higher percentages, just as Mario, with no real kill moves, is still able to get his share of kills in. Zelda's Fair however has incredible knockback and power even at low percentages, however she is incredibly combo inept.

 

[Ztarfish]

Sheik's difficulty of use aside, it doesn't matter what role she played in OoT. It matters that she was a very popular character in Melee.
Of course fans love her just because she was good. Why wouldn't they?
You seem caught up on the idea that only main characters should be PC's in Brawl. Why? Do you think that Jigglypuff and Mewtwo should be cut too because they aren't main characters?
Sakurai has to appease fans of many game series's, so why shouldn't he appease Melee's fans?
Pichu is extremely unpopular AND a clone. Of course he deserves to go. But Mewtwo is VERY popular among Pokemon fans even now. While Melee fans don't care for him, they're not the only ones who matter. Just like Zelda fans aren't the only ones who matter.
Sheik, or at least her moveset, should get in due to her/its popularity in Melee just as much as Mewtwo should get in due to his popularity in general, despite not being that popular in Melee.

That's because every character in Brawl is a main character in some respect. If you have ever seen the Pokemon anime. (It's quite ok if you haven't, I'm ashamed to have) it becomes clear within a couple episodes that Jigglypuff, like Pikachu, is not a generic pokemon. While not important to the series, Jigglypuff is a very iconic pokemon in terms of the anime, where as Sheik is not. Mewtwo got his own movie as well, and was the 'final boss' in RGB. I can't think of a single Brawler that is not a main/iconic/important character in their respective series (with the exception of Pichu, but he's getting removed anyway)

And you nailed in right on the head. My opinion is that if characters are to get in due to popularity, it should be because of the overall likeability of the character and not because they were superbadass in Melee. Unfortunately it's impossible to determine between the two. Which is why I get so frustrated over Sheik.

 

[OrlanduEX]

Have you ever played Zelda? =/
Because:
1. PT's and Zelda's transformation times are very similar. Zelda's may be a tad longer, but it's not as long as you seem to think it is.
2. I recall the game's manual reinforcing the idea that the two should be used in tandem.
3. Zelda's moves weren't crappy. What was crappy was that she was slow, extremely unmaneuverable, had incredibly specific sweetspots, and her smashes while powerful were incredibly easy to DI out of.

Zelda had an entire arsenal of extremely powerful moves, you were just unable to make any of them work for the most part.

Sheik, was an incredible combo-er and because of that she could rack up damage like no other. Thus why her main kill move (Fair) was so effective. Her Fair at low damages is of incredibly low effectiveness, only being capable of killing at higher percentages, just as Mario, with no real kill moves, is still able to get his share of kills in. Zelda's Fair however has incredible knockback and power even at low percentages, however she is incredibly combo inept.

1. Watch the Brawl commercial for Pokemon Trainer. The transformation time is considerably shorter AND you can't be knocked out of it, so it's no liability.
2. I don't remember whats in the manual, though game manuals aren't written by the developers of the game anyway, so the suggestions presented don't necessarily reflect the ideas of the people who made the game, just the ideas of the person(s) writing the manual.
3. The difficulty of landing Zelda's moves was why they were crappy. No matter how strong an attack is, if it's too hard to land, it's not worth it. This applies to many other characters in the game. Plenty of characters had strong moves that most people ignored because they were difficult to apply. Even the most skillful and adept Zelda players mostly just spam her fair and bair.

Also, Sheik's fair is not her only means of KO. Her bair an d smash are quite good for edge guarding at any percent. With edge guarding/hogging Sheik doesn't HAVE to kill you with a fair. I've seen plenty of Sheik players just knock the opponent a little distance off at 60% or so, then edgeguard for the kill.

 

[OrlanduEX]

And you nailed in right on the head. My opinion is that if characters are to get in due to popularity, it should be because of the overall likeability of the character and not because they were superbadass in Melee. Unfortunately it's impossible to determine between the two. Which is why I get so frustrated over Sheik.

And I am of the opinion that a character as important to the Melee fanbase as Sheik shouldn't/wouldn't be removed.
So I guess we can agree to disagree.
No hard feelings or anything.

 

[Ztarfish]

1. Watch the Brawl commercial for Pokemon Trainer. The transformation time is considerably shorter AND you can't be knocked out of it, so it's no liability.
2. I don't remember whats in the manual, though game manuals aren't written by the developers of the game anyway, so the suggestions presented don't necessarily reflect the ideas of the people who made the game, just the ideas of the person(s) writing the manual.
3. The difficulty of landing Zelda's moves was why they were crappy. No matter how strong an attack is, if it's too hard to land, it's not worth it. This applies to many other characters in the game. Plenty of characters had strong moves that most people ignored because they were difficult to apply. Even the most skillful and adept Zelda players mostly just spam her fair and bair.

Also, Sheik's fair is not her only means of KO. Her bair an d smash are quite good for edge guarding at any percent. With edge guarding/hogging Sheik doesn't HAVE to kill you with a fair. I've seen plenty of Sheik players just knock the opponent a little distance off at 60% or so, then edgeguard for the kill.

1. I've seen it, the only advantage I can see is that you can't be knocked out of it. To be perfectly honest I don't see any difference in times.
2. I don't either. I may be talking about a trophy, which was made by the developers, but even if it was the manual, the writer of the manual is consulted by the developing team. It's not some random Nintendo employee putting his own spin on the game.
3. Her Fair/Bair not worth it? I beg to disagree. While it requires a certain amount of work to get right, once you get it it's quite possible to sweetspot 100% of the time. As with her multihit moves, that was unintentional. Just as Luigi's low traction allowed him to wavedash at great distances, Zelda's multihit smashes allowed for an incredible amount of time to get out of before the final blow.

If the developers created Zelda's moveset in the way they thought Zelda was fit to have, they must of had an incredible vendetta towards Zelda. I just think that while the Sheik part worked the Zelda part unfortunately didn't.

There never were hard feelings. I just strongly disagree with you in terms of Sheik's importance.

 

[Ztarfish]

Aha, found it.
Sheik's SMASH Trophy:
"Strategically switching between Zelda and Sheik is key. Compared to her Zelda form, Sheik is nimble and has gorgeous moves, but she lacks a strong knockout attack."

Oh and apparently PT's switch has a great amount of Invincibility Frames. I still don't think that means much, they could've just switched the transformation mechanic. After all Samus does only switch into Zamus after a huge energy blast. It could be that they're now making transforming characters less vulnerable.

 

[OrlanduEX]

1. I've seen it, the only advantage I can see is that you can't be knocked out of it. To be perfectly honest I don't see any difference in times.
2. I don't either. I may be talking about a trophy, which was made by the developers, but even if it was the manual, the writer of the manual is consulted by the developing team. It's not some random Nintendo employee putting his own spin on the game.
3. Her Fair/Bair not worth it? I beg to disagree. While it requires a certain amount of work to get right, once you get it it's quite possible to sweetspot 100% of the time. As with her multihit moves, that was unintentional. Just as Luigi's low traction allowed him to wavedash at great distances, Zelda's multihit smashes allowed for an incredible amount of time to get out of before the final blow.

If the developers created Zelda's moveset in the way they thought Zelda was fit to have, they must of had an incredible vendetta towards Zelda. I just think that while the Sheik part worked the Zelda part unfortunately didn't.

There never were hard feelings. I just strongly disagree with you in terms of Sheik's importance.

You are right. The swapping time is slow.
Also, not to start anything, but I think you misconstrued what I meant about Zelda's moves. I was just saying that MOST of her moves were crappy, but the Fair and Bair were her GOOD moves.

I can see where you are coming from concerning Sheik's importance, but I just don't see why so many Zelda players despise her so. I just don't think it's her fault that Zelda turned out the way she did.
I just want Sheik's moveset present in Brawl in some form or another.

 

[Soluble Toast]

Dear god..
Can we have ONE topic where the whole discussion is NOT about Sheik? =/

Like Gimpy's topic said this is the ZELDA forums.

All Sheik arguments just go round in a LAAARGE circle anyway.

 

[Airgemini]

QFTT! We just have to wait for the DOJO or until Japan gets it on order to find out....

 

[Luthien]

You are right. The swapping time is slow.
Also, not to start anything, but I think you misconstrued what I meant about Zelda's moves. I was just saying that MOST of her moves were crappy, but the Fair and Bair were her GOOD moves.

I can see where you are coming from concerning Sheik's importance, but I just don't see why so many Zelda players despise her so. I just don't think it's her fault that Zelda turned out the way she did.
I just want Sheik's moveset present in Brawl in some form or another.

Oh, *Phew*. You're a decent person after all.

Really, OrlanduEX, my post wasn't ENITIRELY directed at you. It was more at your POST and ALL of the "Sheik hater" haters. Ever since the 'leak', stupid posts have been coming out of the woodwork. Yours was just the first one I saw. Sorry.

Now, back to your reply to my reply. I think we covered most of it, but the main point I want to make is there is a difference between why Sheik CAN be in Brawl and why SHOULD Sheik be in Brawl. Debates get these two things confused, and that's why they're so chaotic. So before I can go on, I need to know what you meant by "Who are you to say that Sheik shouldn't be in Brawl?"

An example of this would be something you said: "Sheik's difficulty of use aside, it doesn't matter what role she played in OoT. It matters that she was a very popular character in Melee." That isn't a reason Sheik SHOULD be in Brawl. That's a reason Sheik CAN be in Brawl. Do you see the difference?

Frankly, this has already been covered for the most part. If Sheik was in one or two more Zelda games, that would make it a vert different case. Sheik would then be a CHARACTER, not a TOOL of Zelda. I'm a Sheik fan (not Melee Sheik, Legend of Zelda Sheik), so I want Sheik to have a background. It's not that I think TP is the only relevant game, it's that OoT ISN'T. I want UNIVERSAL Zelda represented, not TP or OoT only.

I think you've already learned that Sheik brings Zelda down. One move can make all the difference. Imagine Fox without HIS down-b. And the CONCEPT of the move didn't work, not just the performance. We covered this in the Zelda Appreciation Thread, posts #153, 159, and 160.

Zelda's moves weren't crap... per se. It's actually the lag and start-up time before/after them which makes them so horrible (in general). The hitboxes aren't as hard to work with as people think. The point to this is, the lag issues seem to have been fixed. So Zelda's moveset is pretty good now.

Also, continuity IS important to character designs. Sakurai can only BEND rules regarding movesets, not break them. This is why Sheik CAN get in. Sakurai may consider Sheik BENDING the rule, not BREAKING it. Still, by all Universal standards, Sheik SHOULD be dropped. She's taking up Zelda(a character with far more depth and possibilities than the affore mentioned ninja)'s moveset, and s/he's too small a character in the LoZ plot to be a seperate character. (I think of her as the Tom Bombadil of Zelda; a freaking awesome minor character while no questions regarding him/her are truly answered). Still, she's been in Melee and that's a reason that supports why she CAN be in Brawl. I hope everybody is noticeing the highlights of CAN and SHOULD.

In short, the message of my post was for everybody, not just you (once again, sorry about that). I was trying to say: learn some facts before you post in here and say untrue things. Nothing frustrates me more than when something (i.e: Sheik) is 'leaked' and people come from nowhere and say "Sh3ik 4 Brawl! Zelda's st00pid!!1!". Your post wasn't anywhere near like that, but in some ways it was worse. I don't like it when people say that other people don't have a decent side of the story.

And yeah, I know the name thing was false. Still, it seems like Sakurai's trying to move from OoT to TP, when he SHOULD be trying to cover all of the games. It seems he's trying to hang onto OoT, bring in some TP, and he's ignoring other games altogether (the worst 'crime' of the three). This is what frustrates us. It looks like he's pulling himself in three different directions, and we're suffering for it. He should choose one and stick with it (prefferably the third).

@ Soluable Toast: At least this debate was civil. There have been worse.

EDIT: At Stiputation: Err... I'm a guy. *PLOT TWIST* Funny story. Check out the All of Zelda's Options for Brawl thread to learn more... mwuhahahaha...

 

[Stiputation]

I KNEW IT I KNEW IT I KNEW IT!
Which was I was so hesitant to put girl.

I JUST KNEW IT!
Ah well, it doesn't matter anyways, the fire in our relationship still won't dieeeeeeeeeee ;]

 

[Kapusta.KO]

YES, I am so **** stoked now.
Sheik is probably back, with a new look :D
and then, of course theres the Light Arrow Final Smash, which I think is sick.
Definitely going to use Zelda a little more this time around in Brawl, not just Sheik...
Zelda, Pit, and Ike

 

[Ztarfish]

Well, at least it looks like more people will give Zelda the time of day this time around

 

[pyroroth]

Well, at least it looks like more people will give Zelda the time of day this time around

at least initially..

 

[Zelda_Sheik]

I'm back ...
OMG Final Smash revealed.
2 Questions:
Can someone tell me from where is that picture?
Her attacks have been revealed?

 

[Darkpaladin of Chaos]

Can someone tell me from where is that picture?
Her attacks have been revealed?

1. Brawl Central, which got it from the CoroCoro card.
2. No. The card just listed the three special attacks we already knew about.

 

[Snake King 1]

not to go off topic, but we now know all the characters moves check any character on dojo like ike and you know the names of them now

 

[OrlanduEX]

Not to be an a**hole, but I think I win this thread. >

 

[kackamee]

Wow I'm suprised it was right

 

[Airgemini]

Well now we can put all of these speculations to rest..

 

[Soluble Toast]

Well now we can put all of these speculations to rest..

That's when the fun ends though =[

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