Social Zelda Social - Still the queen of Smash...and maybe queen of low tier for a decade, too. Shall we make it two?

[McKnightlíght]

My guess is that she'll be banned, just like in Sm4sh.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

She'll still be bottom tier because the only thing she's gotten is buffed Phantom Slash, everything else seems worse or the same outside of like... Din's Fire which is now only mediocre instead of literally the worst move in the game. You're welcome.

 

[Alacion]

The moment when people figure out Din's is cancelled out by most aerials will be a dark day. I remember when that happened in my community in the Brawl days

 

[KuroganeHammer]

hi courier

tbh people figured it out in smash 4 because airdodging it was simply that much worse lol

 

[KlicKlac]

The moment when people figure out Din's is cancelled out by most aerials will be a dark day. I remember when that happened in my community in the Brawl days

I really hope dins doesn't do that anymore. I want to be able to throw out dins and force them to waste their airdodge.

 

[Ffamran]

Din's Fire with transcendent priority would be pretty nice. Totally not going to happen. What's more likely would be if they gave it the lowest priority possible.

Edit: Apparently Din's Fire had transcendent priority in Melee? According to the wiki that is: https://www.ssbwiki.com/Priority#Transcendent_priority.

 

[Squii The Fish]

She'll still be bottom tier because the only thing she's gotten is buffed Phantom Slash, everything else seems worse or the same outside of like... Din's Fire which is now only mediocre instead of literally the worst move in the game. You're welcome.

Prolly.
Is K though.

Playin Zelda is really hard sometimes, but so is Dark Souls.
I really like Dark Souls.

 

[KlicKlac]

She'll still be bottom tier because the only thing she's gotten is buffed Phantom Slash, everything else seems worse or the same outside of like... Din's Fire which is now only mediocre instead of literally the worst move in the game. You're welcome.

There's a lot of other buffs Zelda got. You can drift immediately out of UpB. Upsmash has a way better hitbox. Her run is noticeably faster. Jab comes out way faster and is multihit (but dunno how mulithit changes her jab game). In general a lot of her attacks seem to be faster and have less endlag.
Dtilt looks really bad though lol

I just hope Sakurai does more tweeking, so there's no more bottom tier.

 

[Squii The Fish]

There's a lot of other buffs Zelda got. You can drift immediately out of UpB. Upsmash has a way better hitbox. Her run is noticeably faster. Jab comes out way faster and is multihit (but dunno how mulithit changes her jab game). In general a lot of her attacks seem to be faster and have less endlag.
Dtilt looks really bad though lol

I just hope Sakurai does more tweeking, so there's no more bottom tier.

Ah I dunno Dtilt still looks ok its just the move dosen't travel very far, seems to send the opponents at the tried and true angle from what I could muster though I may be mistaken. Looks like you can act fairly quickly afterwords. Aside from melee and project M I thought dtilt was pretty good in general for zelda.

I could be a big silly dum dum though.

 

[KlicKlac]

Ah I dunno Dtilt still looks ok its just the move dosen't travel very far, seems to send the opponents at the tried and true angle from what I could muster though I may be mistaken. Looks like you can act fairly quickly afterwords. Aside from melee and project M I thought dtilt was pretty good in general for zelda.

I could be a big silly dum dum though.

Well, it could just the new game mechanics in general with less hitstun, and people haven't adjusted to it. We haven't seen anyone try a dthrow to upair either. Maybe we just need to relearn the combo percent windows

 

[TheFacelessOne]

The moment when people figure out Din's is cancelled out by most aerials will be a dark day. I remember when that happened in my community in the Brawl days

I'm really surprised it didn't have transcendent priority (A needle has transcendent priority but not FIRE.... really?)

 

[otheusrex]

i'm guessing upthrow>teleboom will be a thing. and also, dtilt into phantom. single jab into ftilt, or phantom. I don't expect dins fire to be a true followup to anything, but as people have pointed out before, it should be a good way to limit an opponent's options offstage, and if it does clank, that also means you can use dins fire to stop projectiles coming at you, which should be easy because it's a big hitbox.

I'm most worried that her punish game is going to be very, very light on combos. Most of her moves have so much knockback that it's probably gonna be hard to combo in the conventional ways. There should be some tradeoffs to this though, and considering, I expect that was sort of planned for her design.

First, what I imagine will be a BnB for her is poking around with her powerful (and now fast) moves, especially out of dashes. Then, instead of following through with a combo, she'll use the time they're in hitstun to set up a phantom (which will be completely safe for her since she can release it at anytime with a hitbox). When she's charging phantom, she can watch what they do and either abandon it with no penalty to her, or use phantom as a set up to land another powerful move and then repeat.

Secondly, regarding the high knockback moves that don't kill, we're probably intended to go for teleport reads. I play a mod for sm4sh right now called 4xm, and they sort of tweaked things like upthrow and dash attack so that going for teleport followups are a legitmate part of her gameplan, so much so that they had to tweak the power of her teleport in 4xm so she wouldn't kill so early. Judging by the apparent reduced potency of her teleport in Ultimate (in both knockback and it's lowered kb angle), my guess is that teleport followups are a planned aspect of her Ultimate design, and that they initially thought she was able to kill other characters too early with the same teleport power that she had in sm4sh. Another reason I think her teleport will be essential to her gameplan is that the increased drift and control she has afterwards will allow her to do her teleport followup offstage and still recover. This is the case in 4xm where she also has increased drift and control after teleport.

 

[「 Derk 」]

Tbh everything that made Zelda a bad character has been fixed or at least touched up on for the most part. She had a terrible neutral because of bad frame data and approach options and 2 mediocre projectiles that had little to no use in an actual match. Her approach option was basically limited to nair and grab because all the other attacks had too much end lag. She was also a slow character on top of all of that. Zelda was a total cluster**** to put it blunt.

She can actually have a neutral this time thanks to faster movement, better frame data on arials and jab along with a held verison + end attack, and Phantom Slash bringing so many new options to the table.
- She is free to move around and no longer has to commit to the move.
- It can make unsafe options on shield safe by covering her afterwords.
- She can still use little/no charge as a get off me option
- Set it and combo attack with the phantom or use it with Din's Fire from afar
- Use it as a distraction to force a shield/dodge/roll etc... and net a grab out of it. She doesn't even have to worry about it being reflected by anything other than fox anymore because she can just reflect it back. Even if they choose to reflect it who cares. We can teleport through it and hit them with Farore's Wind lol

Worst case scenario if Din's Fire still ends up being terrible in neutral or everything in general it will still have practical use thanks to the new air dodge mechanics and no free fall. That's more than it ever had before. So far all I have seen people doing with the new Zelda is rushing in so... buff the players now I guess?

 

[BJN39]

Upsmash has a way better hitbox.

Pause.

Literally nowhere I’ve seen says that.

I need receipTs...


because I like Usmash so if it was more useable I need to know

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Pause.

Literally nowhere I’ve seen says that.

I need receipTs...


because I like Usmash so if it was more useable I need to know

I don't have proof on me, but I remember from the footage I've seen of her, there were multiple times when she would upsmash and the opponent standing next to her (but not visually touching the halo she makes above her) would get hit by it, so I think the horizontal reach may have improved a little.

So I don't know much about Zelda, so I wanted to ask, what do you guys think about the Jab change? It looks good, but I feel it may have ditched the previous design of "slow start up, low cooldown". IIRC, her Smash 4 jab was able to combo into things since it had low knockback and low cooldown. So if the new jab sends them away, isn't it worse in some aspects? The new jab does look cute as heck though with all the expressions and elegance.

 

[KlicKlac]

Pause.

Literally nowhere I’ve seen says that.

I need receipTs...


because I like Usmash so if it was more useable I need to know

In some of the zelda gameplay shown, her upsmash appears to have a wider horizontal range now. Looks way better than smash 4 upsmash, where the opponent has to be literally touching zelda sometimes for upsmash to hit.

 

[mugwhump]

My thoughts on Zelda:

Looks like a solid wall archtype, but this time around, actually functional with walling. Aerials are underwhelming for pressing the offense or comboing, but aSH (auto shorthop) looks to be devastating with her kicks, and her improved airspeed gives her flexibility with using aerials to zone.

https://gfycat.com/MisguidedNeatLeafcutterant
^nair is safe on PS (perfect shield) for instance. At least on some characters. Although, I think at most, this will be less about giving her frame traps and more about giving the Zelda main confidence to throw out attacks in order to defend vs certain options

I also saw in that vs Mario match, he dropped his shield at the end of fsmash and got a perfect shield. I do wonder how vulnerable her multihit moves will be to ezpz perfect shields. I hope they buff the shield stun on the intermediate hits so that getting a perfect shield isn't as simple as "just let go near the end lol".

 

[otheusrex]

I "slow start up, low cooldown". IIRC, her Smash 4 jab was able to combo into things since it had low knockback and low cooldown.

good riddance! there's a lack of comprehensive toolset use from zelda footage so far, not that anyone can blame that since it's only been 3 days with a brand new game. It's important to note that the jab multihit combo is optional, and that she still has her single hit jab like before (technically it was a multihit, but it was effectively just a slow single hit jab) only now it's frame 4 instead of frame 11. it's tough to say whether she has the same quickness to act out of the single hit jab, but she probably will have some similar followups after it, probably DA, Dash grab, ftilt, maybe dtilt or aSH kick

. I hope they buff the shield stun on the intermediate hits so that getting a perfect shield isn't as simple as "just let go near the end lol".

It probably won't be safe on shield because of perfect shielding, lol. They always seem to look at it like this... 1) invent a new defensive mechanic 2) allow Zelda to have some sort of offensive option she used to lack because the new defensive mechanic will safe them the bother of balancing her, since anything op she has will be negated by the new defense mechanic

 

[Freelance Spy]

lol. I'd like to see some actual use

Treehouse demonstrated Zelda's new Phantom Knight, and later have a Zelda vs Link match.

You can see that the fully charged phantom can be released immediately or held for a second while Zelda moves first before it launches.

My guess is you press down b to start building phantom, and press down b again to launch it. Or just let the phantom complete and it fires after waiting a second.

It does like, 8%... Yeesh.

 

[Luminario]

So I don't know much about Zelda, so I wanted to ask, what do you guys think about the Jab change? It looks good, but I feel it may have ditched the previous design of "slow start up, low cooldown". IIRC, her Smash 4 jab was able to combo into things since it had low knockback and low cooldown. So if the new jab sends them away, isn't it worse in some aspects? The new jab does look cute as heck though with all the expressions and elegance.

It's a breath of fresh air. An immediate disjoint flurry to deal with fast opponents is much more useful than the slow ass jab from before, combo potential included. They really seem to be designing her around being a defensive long range pesterer this time, which is exactly what I wanted. Din's Fire is now for pestering, Phantom is essentially a trap, Farore is even faster to get those long range kills for opponents not approaching due to having a reflector or something, and jab flurry takes care of speedy ******** who think they can just run in. The only problem I still see is having both Lightning Kicks for fair and bair instead of something a little safer over one of them, though the landing lag of both seems to be massively reduced so it's not too bad. I'm really hopeful this time guys, fourth time's the charm

 

[otheusrex]

https://gfycat.com/HiddenSoggyKagu
what do you guys think of this? I can't tell how long characters stay in hitstun in this game so I don't know just how unlikely this followup is with Zelda.

 

[Katy Parry]

Phantom Slash now is a single press chargeable move. Pressing B again will release the Phantom as its current charge level, and has five charge levels. You can see this easily by watching the visual cue: counting the pieces as they fall and “shake“ as it forms. (The final piece, the head, is the visual indication the Phantom will be delayed, AFTER it “shakes” as it sets in place.)
Each level is a different attack. Finally, Releasing the fifth charge delays the phantom, invoking for crazy sets ups, baits, and edgeguarding. A very “traditional fighter” stylized projectile, allowing her to pressure opponents safely. The Phantom still acts as a shield as well.

 

[Freelance Spy]

I really hope dins doesn't do that anymore. I want to be able to throw out dins and force them to waste their airdodge.

I've already seen it happen in this game. I think it was a mario nair or something.

https://gfycat.com/HiddenSoggyKagu
what do you guys think of this? I can't tell how long characters stay in hitstun in this game so I don't know just how unlikely this followup is with Zelda.

Definitely not a combo, but maybe uptilt could do something? Please?

 

[TheFacelessOne]

https://gfycat.com/HiddenSoggyKagu
what do you guys think of this? I can't tell how long characters stay in hitstun in this game so I don't know just how unlikely this followup is with Zelda.

You can see link dair before it hits

 

[Squii The Fish]

https://gfycat.com/HiddenSoggyKagu
what do you guys think of this? I can't tell how long characters stay in hitstun in this game so I don't know just how unlikely this followup is with Zelda.

Ah unfortuanetely its not a true confirm I dont think.

Though the zelda player didn't really act so if it was possible it would be at very very certain percents and a very tight frame window.
I did see link (buffer? i dunno) a down air though prior to getting hit, I think also the tumble after the launch smoke also shouldnt last that long but I would actually need the game to test it out.

 

[Katy Parry]

https://gfycat.com/HiddenSoggyKagu
what do you guys think of this? I can't tell how long characters stay in hitstun in this game so I don't know just how unlikely this followup is with Zelda.

You can clearly see link regain control of his character when he starts to drift left after the apex of the jump unfortunately, so he just needs to be a lower percent. The faster hitstun forces us to know what option we must choose in that situation. Instead of fair, she should have unpaired I think, for a combo at least.

 

[Rickster]

Phantom Slash now is a single press chargeable move. Pressing B again will release the Phantom as its current charge level, and has five charge levels. You can see this easily by watching the visual cue: counting the pieces as they fall and “shake“ as it forms. (The final piece, the head, is the visual indication the Phantom will be delayed.)
Each level is a different attack. Finally, Releasing the fifth charge delays the phantom, invoking for crazy sets ups, baits, and edgeguarding. A very “traditional fighter” stylized projectile, allowing her to pressure opponents safely. The Phantom still acts as a shield as well.

Damn, that charge speed actually looks pretty fast!

 

[Squii The Fish]

You can clearly see link regain control of his character when he starts to drift left after the apex of the jump unfortunately, so he just needs to be a lower percent. The faster hitstun forces us to know what option we must choose in that situation. Instead of fair, she should have unpaired I think, for a combo at least.

unpair wouldn't have worked I think maybe upnair or unfair is the only unfirm.

Spoiler

I am sorry couldnt help myself

 

[Katy Parry]

unpair wouldn't have worked I think maybe upnair or unfair is the only unfirm.

Spoiler

I am sorry couldnt help myself

Sorry, my English is not the best sometimes. I meant unpaired as unpair herself from the phantom lol I was thinking if she set one up as he was landing and then went for an attack, she’d be better off

 

[Freelance Spy]

We need more threads I think...

 

[Squii The Fish]

Sorry, my English is not the best sometimes. I meant unpaired as unpair herself from the phantom lol I was thinking if she set one up as he was landing and then went for an attack, she’d be better off

Oh your fine haha I was just being silly.

 

[Katy Parry]

Straight from the Moveset thread, bc I love you girls.

ITS ZELDA, *****.
​

DOWNWARD SPECIAL - Phantom Slash

Phantom Slash has received a major overhaul in Ultimate.

Phantom Slash now is a single press chargeable move. Pressing B again will release the Phantom as its current charge level, and has five charge levels. You can see this easily by watching the visual cue: counting the pieces as they fall and “shake“ as it forms. (The final piece, the head, is the visual indication the Phantom will be delayed.)
Each level is a different attack. Finally, Releasing the fifth charge delays the phantom, invoking for crazy sets ups, baits, and edgeguarding. A very “traditional fighter” stylized projectile, allowing her to pressure opponents safely. The Phantom still acts as a shield as well.

Level One - Kick

Level Two - Fist

Level Three - Strike

Level Four - Slash

Level Five - Slash (Trap)

GRAB - Hex Hold

PUMMEL - Flash

FORWARD THROW - Levitation

BACKWARD THROW - Reverse Levitation

UPWARD THROW - Levitation Launch

DOWNWARD THROW - Plasma Beat

 

[KlicKlac]

Phantom is a such a high risk, low reward type of move (like most of Zelda's kit). Really glad Sakurai added the fully charged slash delay to give Zelda players a proper reason to charge phantom all the way, which can be difficult and dangerous to do.

 

[Katy Parry]

Phantom is a such a high risk, low reward type of move (like most of Zelda's kit). Really glad Sakurai added the fully charged slash delay to give Zelda players a proper reason to charge phantom all the way, which can be difficult and dangerous to do.

id say it’s high risk high reward, it has a great payoff for the risk, so to call it a low reward move doesn’t really sound right to me at least

 

[ketchupprecum]

Is level-4 and level-5 charge no longer 2 hit?

edit: sorry quoted wrong post

 

[Zede]

Hello, fellow Zelda mains. I'v been a lurker for years and have been silently wishing with all of you for a more viable Zelda. Now that we have all the footage from the new SSBU Zelda I'm all excited and decided to finally join.

 

[Kyle B]

Is level-4 and level-5 charge no longer 2 hit?

edit: sorry quoted wrong post

Ya it seems like it only hits once, but the animation makes it look like it should hit at the end as well. Could just be a beta build thing
Looking at the final stage (Level 5) I can see that it clanks on Link's actual shield (still a projectile ), but still hits his smash shield afterward, so maybe level 5 does hit twice still? I didn't see many people use it so I never got to see if someone got whacked twice by it in actual play.

 

[BJN39]

Is level-4 and level-5 charge no longer 2 hit?

edit: sorry quoted wrong post

They are in fact

Hit one hits link’s shield and the next is shielded by Link.

What we aren’t sure of yet is if the hits work the same as before. I feel like some footage is suggesting that whichever hit hits will be the same; IE it’s only trying to act as one hit now, but either hit will KO well now.

That would actually be good since the old 2-hit style was flawed (the hitbox design made it whiff hit no2 occasionally I’d hit one barely caught someone at the sword edge.)

 

[CodeBlue_]

I need more of these memes

Great Bay looks amazing btw ~

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I need more of these memes
View attachment 148475
Great Bay looks amazing btw ~

Found this one on twitter yesterday and it's the most wholesome thing I've ever seen