• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Social Zelda Social - Still the queen of Smash...and maybe queen of low tier for a decade, too. Shall we make it two?

Are you happy with the Link Between Worlds redesign?

  • Yes, she's gorgeous and expressive.

    Votes: 265 65.9%
  • No, Breath of the Wild had such potential.

    Votes: 56 13.9%
  • No, Twilight Princess death stare Zelda was the best design.

    Votes: 45 11.2%
  • I'm happy with any design, just as long as she's viable,

    Votes: 36 9.0%

  • Total voters
    402

Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
14,629
Thanks for the write-up Ffamran!. Zelda's jab looks really good now, and everything looks a little faster. Dunno how much this will help zelda, but she definitely has to be out of bottom tier now.
No problem since I've been talking about mainly Falco in a Zelda thread and that's weird. I'm lonely because the Falco boards are dead -- as usual. The other thing was to check for consistencies like jump frames are definitely frame 4 for Falco, Zelda, and probably everyone else and not frame 3 or to confirm that Zelda's jab is frame 4 and Nair is frame 6. Some of it is expected because the developers do carry over frame data from game to game, especially with moves that don't really need changing at least in startup and total frames, but for other moves like Zelda's jab which was strangely slow at frame 11 in Smash 4 and I think in the previous games, it wouldn't be farfetched for the developers to change them. Feedback and criticism being more readily available and experience helps with that. Seriously, why is a jab of all thing that damn slow? In Tekken, it wouldn't be that slow I think, but that's relative since startup in Tekken and other similar fighting games are slower than Smash, KoF, and Street Fighter. Frame 11 in those games and in Smash would be like a medium or heavy attack, but she has a frame 11 on a light attack button. Better late than never, I suppose.

Edit: Jump are 3 frames as of the E3 demo. The first airborne frame is not counted.
 
Last edited:

Jaguar360

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 9, 2014
Messages
1,863
Location
NJ
NNID
Jaguar360
3DS FC
0516-7348-2137
ZeRo's Ike had a bit of a difficult time punishing Din's Fire, the endlag looks so much better now which is a big relief.
Here's the YouTube VOD of ZeRo vs Leffen at Treehouse btw, between to go back through than Twitch: https://youtu.be/8O-ZUXGcuWU?t=3h30m45s

Frame 4 jab is so so sooo nice is Ffam's correct on that, I can't wait to play this version of Zelda! Glad to see basic grab combos are still mostly intact. She might actually get out of bottom tier for the first time in an official.
 
Last edited:

KlicKlac

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 4, 2015
Messages
235
Location
Syracuse, New York
NNID
KlicKlac
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWca6GvRn38

A good Zelda vs Ike match (players not listed). Zelda seemed to know what they were doing, but she still struggled against Ike.

Phantom charges as a edge-gaurding tool seems a bit slow, but it's still rather early, may be ways to play around with it despite that.
That phantom trap at 1:07!!!


The new phantom trap.
 

Demon-oni

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 30, 2007
Messages
472
NNID
Thanatos-Demon
3DS FC
0147-1152-7184
It looks like her frame data isn't absolute butts on her aerials this time around. Provided grab actually connects at a decent frame then by jove I think we have a mid tier character.
 

Alacion

Sunny skies
Premium
Joined
Oct 6, 2009
Messages
8,061
Location
Vancouver, BC
NNID
Alacion
3DS FC
0216-0918-5299
Watching Nairo play Zelda makes me think that... Zelda hasn't changed much from Smash 4 Zelda. :(

Elevator looks even more DI-able than before. Nobody's really going to use Din's all that much. The new jab looks like a decent panic move.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Time to put the pesky Bayos to shame :). But seriously, being able to charge phantom slash is a great touch. And no more dins fire free fall? Amazing! I do like the this version of Zelda but kind of wanted Botw more. But I'm not complaining! She looks great and seems to look a bit older than the actual LbW version. I hope she at least makes it to mid tier. Time to break her out of the low tier guys!
 

Merfect

Learn your true self
Joined
Jan 5, 2013
Messages
74
Location
Tennessee
NNID
Merfectman
Just wanted to express my hype. Seeing Zelda with better frame data, no more free fall out of Din's Fire, and potentially good utility with her phantom has me really hyped. Really high hopes for this character. Plus, probably my favorite Zelda design in Smash yet. Love that she's in heels too :love:

Hope we get a Discord group up soon. ^.^
 

「 Derk 」

4th times the charm...
Joined
Jun 4, 2014
Messages
648
Location
Ellijay, Georgia
NNID
D3RK-SSB4
Switch FC
SW-6389-5985-3965
Here's to 6 months of brainstorming before launch! Even if 90% of the stuff doesn't work like I think it does, which is incredibly likely, I'll still have tons of stuff to test once the game is released! I can already picture a ton of options with the little that we know already.
- Setting a phantom in the air to combo off a teammates throw to kill off the top. Kinda think of Cloud's throw to finishing touch they do in doubles but this cover's a lot more horizontal space lol
- Setting a phantom then teleporting directly into someone with Farore's Wind while the phantom prevent's the opponent from punishing. Could be used to set up a grab or apply a lot of shield pressure. Set Phantom → Immediately Farore's Wind → Phantom Slash connects → Grab during shield stun of Phantom Slash or smash attack to possibly break shield?
- Setting a phantom offstage facing the ledge then use Farore's Wind to ledge trump them right as they grab ledge and force them to into it lol. Even if they decide to immediately roll to avoid the trump the phantom should cover that option if positioned correctly.

Phantom Slash is going to be so much fun I can already imagine all the chaos it brings to the table.
 

Rickster

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
3,834
Location
Faerghus
Switch FC
2713-1285-8029

Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
14,629
Frame 4 jab is so so sooo nice is Ffam's correct on that, I can't wait to play this version of Zelda! Glad to see basic grab combos are still mostly intact. She might actually get out of bottom tier for the first time in an official.
Depending on how consistent people can execute it and the shield stun which is apparently good, jab out of dash would be a good thing to learn. If anything, it's a 4 frame option and she also has her frame 5 Dtilt. I think Down Smash is still frame 5, but it was hard to check. If it has good pushback relative to its recovery, then that would also be an option. I haven't seen her Ftilt in this game yet and I don't know how it interacts on shield, but it could function as a shorter ranged Ike Ftilt for spacing.

I don't remember what Smash 4 Zelda's dashes -- not run, that's different -- were like, but smUsh Zelda's look pretty good. They remind me of Falco's where his run speed sucked, but his dash was the third highest under Little Mac and Fox. So, he could dash in and out short distances to do stuff. Combined with her faster run speed and ability to use almost any move while running, Zelda should be able to move and act more freely. Pivot Ftilts might be nice.
 
Last edited:

Rickster

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
3,834
Location
Faerghus
Switch FC
2713-1285-8029
Can we talk about her kick damage for a second? I've seen it do 30ish% in some videos, while in others it looked to do around 21% or so. Both instances I've noticed were in 1v1 fights. I don't think it's move staling since it would take a lot of kicks to reduce the damage that much...unless kicks have a special staling mechanic. Another possibility is that there are two sweetspots, akin to PM's implementation.

For example, in the Zelda vs Ike video, one bair does around 30%, but in the Leffen vs ZeRo video, they're doing mid twenties at best...


lol nvm idk how to add pls ignore
 
Last edited:

Katy Parry

The Only Zelda in Indiana
Joined
May 20, 2007
Messages
3,328
Location
Indianapolis, IN
NNID
justysuxx
Can we talk about her kick damage for a second? I've seen it do 30ish% in some videos, while in others it looked to do around 21% or so. Both instances I've noticed were in 1v1 fights. I don't think it's move staling since it would take a lot of kicks to reduce the damage that much...unless kicks have a special staling mechanic. Another possibility is that there are two sweetspots, akin to PM's implementation.

For example, in the Zelda vs Ike video, one bair does around 30%, but in the Leffen vs ZeRo video, they're doing mid twenties at best...


It’s 21 here, the back air. Is it the fair you’re seeing do 30?
 

TheFacelessOne

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
44
I'm a bit of a lurker on these boards I gotta say I'm really excited about the Zelda changes. I personally (aside from toon link) have about 17 characters I want to look into picking up and Zelda is in my top 5.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWca6GvRn38
Speaking of which, I'm watching that Ike vs Zelda match with the sick phantom set up and I think I noticed what looked like a frame 3-4 down tilt with a FAF of 15? I'm looking at it frame by frame and counting the 3 frame jumpsquat immediately after one of them and the time from when she crouches to when it hits that's what it looked like. Also maybe a frame 5-6 forward tilt with 26 FAF? I'm using the frame by frame at 0:58 and 1:07 respectively if anyone wants to double check since I'm new to this kind of stuff.

The biggest thing I'm wondering about is dins fire. I like how there's no free fall but I'm wondering about its onstage applications. I'm hoping it can be a good long range harassment tool to force approaches.
Someone help me on this one. So at around 2:12 going frame by frame (hope I'm not off), it looks like Zelda starts dins fire and shoots it a set distance. I've seen other players in the previous vids move it a certain distance before detonating so I'm wondering if there's some time before she can release it or not? All I know is that from the time she looks to start detonating it (Zelda's hand shines) and the time it looks like the hitbox comes out is I think 6 frames with a FAF from the time of release being 17 (it's 17 frames after that the wind particles for up b start).

Compare it to this vid https://youtu.be/sFB8qLRXEuI?t=1m4s
It looks like from release dins fire in s4 looked like it took 10 frames to detonate with a FAF of 30.

Please PLEASE someone make sure I'm right about this. It looks like dins fire's frames got shaved by almost 50%

Edit: .... except it's at 30FPS. Thnks for pointing that out Kurogane. Just ignore this post then.
 
Last edited:

Katy Parry

The Only Zelda in Indiana
Joined
May 20, 2007
Messages
3,328
Location
Indianapolis, IN
NNID
justysuxx

More new zelda footage.
Thank you! I’m analyzing now for gif potential for the Moveset thread.

heres phantom slash winning a mind game trade. Looks like reflections end sooner, as mario gets completely punished for it. Maybe it’s not a projectile anymore.

 
Last edited:

KuroganeHammer

It's ya boy
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 15, 2012
Messages
15,985
Location
Australia
NNID
Aerodrome
I'm a bit of a lurker on these boards I gotta say I'm really excited about the Zelda changes. I personally (aside from toon link) have about 17 characters I want to look into picking up and Zelda is in my top 5.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWca6GvRn38
Speaking of which, I'm watching that Ike vs Zelda match with the sick phantom set up and I think I noticed what looked like a frame 3-4 down tilt with a FAF of 15? I'm looking at it frame by frame and counting the 3 frame jumpsquat immediately after one of them and the time from when she crouches to when it hits that's what it looked like. Also maybe a frame 5-6 forward tilt with 26 FAF? I'm using the frame by frame at 0:58 and 1:07 respectively if anyone wants to double check since I'm new to this kind of stuff.

The biggest thing I'm wondering about is dins fire. I like how there's no free fall but I'm wondering about its onstage applications. I'm hoping it can be a good long range harassment tool to force approaches.
Someone help me on this one. So at around 2:12 going frame by frame (hope I'm not off), it looks like Zelda starts dins fire and shoots it a set distance. I've seen other players in the previous vids move it a certain distance before detonating so I'm wondering if there's some time before she can release it or not? All I know is that from the time she looks to start detonating it (Zelda's hand shines) and the time it looks like the hitbox comes out is I think 6 frames with a FAF from the time of release being 17 (it's 17 frames after that the wind particles for up b start).

Compare it to this vid https://youtu.be/sFB8qLRXEuI?t=1m4s
It looks like from release dins fire in s4 looked like it took 10 frames to detonate with a FAF of 30.

Please PLEASE someone make sure I'm right about this. It looks like dins fire's frames got shaved by almost 50%
the first video is in 30fps so like double (at least) whatever you got
 

KlicKlac

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 4, 2015
Messages
235
Location
Syracuse, New York
NNID
KlicKlac
I think sakurai is still playing around with the game mechanics, like how 1v1 is supposed to do more damage. So damage percentages might get changed.

Videos are slowly trickling in. We'll probably get more footage soon when people at e3 have time to upload.
 
Last edited:

Novice_Brave

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 14, 2010
Messages
334
Location
Albuquerque, NM
Lurked for a couple of days but I think it may be time to come back to the boards. Very nice to see familiar faces from the Smash 4 pre-release Zelda discussions! Also as always extremely impressed by the dedication and love y'all have; there is some serious work being done here that has me sympathetically sweating every time I come back to look.

Seeing the changes to Din's & Phantom alongside the new look has filled me with a calm I haven't known in years. Have noticed that there were still moments people were falling out of smashes (at least, usmash) after the first hit -- I think after the changes to specials that's my next big prayer for some ironing out.

Hope to be able to contribute once again :grin::)
 

KlicKlac

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 4, 2015
Messages
235
Location
Syracuse, New York
NNID
KlicKlac
Notice in the last yt vid at 2:15, Mario airdodged the first dins fire, and then went into a spin in which he apparently couldn't airdodge the 2nd dins fire?

Sakurai said airdodge spamming was nerfed, so this could be big for dins fire forcing airdodges.
 

Squii The Fish

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 12, 2013
Messages
213
Location
Klamath Falls Oregon

More new zelda footage.
Ah so at 1:08- 1:13 Mario either airdodges immediately (i didnt see a jump though) or mario falls out of forward smash do to a sour spot or (despite being non-existent according to many accounts) SDI's out of it.

Regardless it gave me brawl/melee ptsd.
 
Last edited:

Katy Parry

The Only Zelda in Indiana
Joined
May 20, 2007
Messages
3,328
Location
Indianapolis, IN
NNID
justysuxx
Notice in the last yt vid at 2:15, Mario airdodged the first dins fire, and then went into a spin in which he apparently couldn't airdodge the 2nd dins fire?

Sakurai said airdodge spamming was nerfed, so this could be big for dins fire forcing airdodges.
You are correct! I just watched it at fourth speed, since he airdodged again, he was in lag until the second hit goes off. He flashes until he becomes vulnerable
 

KlicKlac

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 4, 2015
Messages
235
Location
Syracuse, New York
NNID
KlicKlac
You are correct! I just watched it at fourth speed, since he airdodged again, he was in lag until the second hit goes off. He flashes until he becomes vulnerable
Yeah, zelda might be a ledgeguarding master. Throw out dins to force an airdodge, or throw out phantom and attack at the same time. Zelda's dair also has 2 kicks now.
 

Rickster

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
3,834
Location
Faerghus
Switch FC
2713-1285-8029
Notice in the last yt vid at 2:15, Mario airdodged the first dins fire, and then went into a spin in which he apparently couldn't airdodge the 2nd dins fire?

Sakurai said airdodge spamming was nerfed, so this could be big for dins fire forcing airdodges.
From what I've heard, you only get one airdodge now. It makes Din's actually dangerous offstage since she can remove an airdodge at almost 0 risk.

And we all know what Zelda does to people offstage who don't/can't airdodge :secretkpop:
 

Fortress

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 2, 2013
Messages
3,097
Location
Kalispell, MT
Misc Data (taken from https://youtu.be/5eaW0PzBL-M and https://youtu.be/7oXB6ELs7gc )

*shield dropping is still in (second video, 0:57); rev up those sourspot combo starters

I'm totally unsure how staling works in this game, so take this with a grain of salt

n-Air: 2.6 + 2.7 + 2.7 + 5.3 (13.3, may be missing an initial hit), is seen doing five hits later on (1:20) for 16.4
*When Nairo performs this move in the opening of the second video, all five hits connect but the move only does 11.6 damage fresh)
b-Air: 21.5 (sweetspot) (does 21.4 later on for some reason, and at 2:33 it only does 17.0) / 3.7 (sourspot) (does .1 less on a later use like the sweetspot)
f-Air: 25.2 (sweetspot) / 5.0 (sourspot)
f-Tilt: 12.6 (1:43, Zero appears to be near max range if there are more than one hitbox)
u-Tilt: 8.0
d-Tilt: 5.7
f-Smash: 16.3 total (four total hits, the first three deal what appeared to be 1% apiece, with the final hit being the big one)
u-Smash: final hit 5.5
Jab 1: 3.1 (full string appears to do 10.5)
Dash Attack: 9.5 (is seen doing 11.2 while opponent is at 0% at a point)
Up-Throw: 13.9
Down-Throw: 8.3
Pummel: 2.5 (appears to be a two-hit backhand slap)
Nayru's Love: 11.6
Farore's Wind: 6.3 (vanish) / 12.6 (reappear)
Phantom: 12.9
 

DNeon

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 24, 2015
Messages
1,003
Location
Brisbane, Australia
NNID
D_Neon_Lamp

More new zelda footage.
Nice
Too many of these Zeldas are throwing out unsafe moves like smash attacks or dash. I'm not seeing enough jabs at close range or Dins for opponents just out of reach and long range pestering. The Nayru into Farore to punish the tech was cool though.
Exactly what I was going to say, that Zelda's neutral was appalling but at least they demonstrated a lot of the interesting off stage game both in intersting recoveries and edge-guarding.
Thank you! I’m analyzing now for gif potential for the Moveset thread.

heres phantom slash winning a mind game trade. Looks like reflections end sooner, as mario gets completely punished for it. Maybe it’s not a projectile anymore.

I doubt it's not a projectile, I think the Mario just has no idea about the new timing. With the way it delays before lunging very fast I can't blame them for missing it. At the time he uses the cape the Phantom has already been completed.
 

Rickster

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
3,834
Location
Faerghus
Switch FC
2713-1285-8029
Reflecting a full charge Phantom may be a bad idea now actually, since Zelda herself can reflect it right back.

The move's weakness seems to be attacking her while she's summoning it or right after it materializes. It looks like it's even less durable than Smash 4's, but with way less downtime.
 

Freelance Spy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 18, 2013
Messages
444
Location
Maine
NNID
Freelancespy87
3DS FC
4570-7985-7965
Zelda's dair also has 2 kicks now.
Where ya getting that from.

Also, long time no see Zelda boards. I wish the Marth boards would be as determined to get data as you all. (Although they got some rough frame data already.)
 

Katy Parry

The Only Zelda in Indiana
Joined
May 20, 2007
Messages
3,328
Location
Indianapolis, IN
NNID
justysuxx
Reflecting a full charge Phantom may be a bad idea now actually, since Zelda herself can reflect it right back.

The move's weakness seems to be attacking her while she's summoning it or right after it materializes. It looks like it's even less durable than Smash 4's, but with way less downtime.
From, what I‘ve seen if she’s attacked while charging it, the pieces fall to the floor and disappear after a short amount of time. Once the Phantom is gone, you can use it again. It’s a better indication of if she can use it or not. No more trying to see if your hand has turned purple.

Im sure it still acts like a shield since it has a brief delay. she can choose to stay behind it and let it eat a projectile, so she can grab punish.

alao her dair is just one hit
 
Last edited:

Squii The Fish

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 12, 2013
Messages
213
Location
Klamath Falls Oregon
Last edited:
Top Bottom