Social Zelda Social - Still the queen of Smash...and maybe queen of low tier for a decade, too. Shall we make it two?

[Kyle B]

Apparently Lightning kick does 30%

Do we have any info on sweetspot radius yet? Is it Melle, Brawl, Smash4, PM, or something different altogether? I know it's endlag looks greatly reduced.
I'm also wondering what happens if we get perfect shielded...I don't imagine it's good...seems like we could get stuck for a century.
At this point, I am just refreshing the page for some Zelda news lol.

 

[Ffamran]

Only a few characters were playable for the demo, but with all this talk about Zelda, her damage, move changes, and other gameplay, I'm feeling a little bit jealous. Meanwhile, smUsh Falco where I can only see animation changes and guess on move changes. For any of you wondering, Falco has new animations for his rapid jab finisher, Down Smash, Blaster holstering, forward roll, back roll, sidestep, and neutral/forward jump. I'll go back to my corner...

 

[Katy Parry]

Only a few characters were playable for the demo, but with all this talk about Zelda, her damage, move changes, and other gameplay, I'm feeling a little bit jealous. Meanwhile, smUsh Falco where I can only see animation changes and guess on move changes. For any of you wondering, Falco has new animations for his rapid jab finisher, Down Smash, Blaster holstering, forward roll, back roll, sidestep, and neutral/forward jump. I'll go back to my corner...

I don’t think any of us are wondering about Flaco, I think you’re just pumped for him =)

Keep in mind, we always have suffered no gameplay due to her being a less popular choice. The fact we have any footage on her at all shows how players are seeing she’s more deserving of buffs than about 95% of the cast, and that she’s popular enough again.

 

[Zereza]

OMGG HER BUFFS ARE AMAZING, AND SHE PROBABLY HAS MORE WE DON’T KNOW ABOUT

MY SUMMER IS MADE

 

[Ffamran]

I don’t think any of us are wondering about Flaco, I think you’re just pumped for him =)

Keep in mind, we always have suffered no gameplay due to her being a less popular choice. The fact we have any footage on her at all shows how players are seeing she’s more deserving of about 95% of the cast, and that she’s popular enough again.

smUsh Falco has became a morbid curiosity for me. My history with Falco is a thing. I'm expecting the absolute worst in him and waiting to see what dumb thing he might carry over or have because it's not Falco if he's not broken. Cue Falco having a giant glitch like Yoshi did.

I don't know, it's just that there are so many fighters and maybe the demo could have had one or two more characters. Like Diddy, Luigi, Peach, Yoshi, and ZSS weren't in the game and they're fairly popular. Captain Falcon wasn't even playable and dude's career is basically being a Smash fighter now with F-Zero being dead. I can get why someone like why Wolf wasn't in because he's getting reworked from his Brawl appearance, but there are so many characters that I figure having as many people play test them would be a good idea. Granted, that would be an information overload, but unless they're planning multiple tournaments until its release and have batches of different characters each time, I don't know how well they'll be able to get enough feedback through their own Q&A on the 65+ characters in smUsh.

This is personal bias since I feel like Falco is a failure of game design, but it it concerning to me when there are some problematic characters, in strength and in design choices, that haven't been shown off in more depth or made playable for the public to see, criticize, and give feedback. People have already noted with peculiarity Bayonetta's ladder still existing which, that Ridley's Down Special can do 60% damage because why not, and early impressions of Fox is that he's weak which is strange since Fox shouldn't be that hard to balance. I'm happy that smUsh Zelda seems playable and even good, but then I'm reminded of Smash 4 Marth/Lucina, Meta Knight, and Samus's rough starts, Melee Fox, Brawl Meta Knight, Smash 4 Cloud's shenanigans, Melee Roy's wonky hitboxes, Smash 4 Palutena's tilts, and throughout the games, Falco's existence.

They can always patch the game and update it if they're going to route of supporting the game like other fighting games, but I'm still worried and feeling pessimistic about the game.

Frame 3 jumpsquat and probably less lag on aerials should also help.

I just saw the post on Reddit about that. Everyone's getting universal jump frames and it's 3? It's gonna be like KoF XIII and KoF XIV, except a frame faster. Falco and Zelda's jump frames are halved and Snake won't have to deal with a 9 frame jump.

 

[Katy Parry]

https://youtu.be/KcPWFE1Lrf4 Does this shed any light on the wave dash thing?
It’s a clip of Marty supposedly doing a wavedash. Looks like a waveland to me

 

[Alacion]

https://twitter.com/DabuzSenpai/status/1006998379375800321

Lol Zelda actually has something "cancerous" now? :o

 

[.Shìkì]

https://twitter.com/DabuzSenpai/status/1006998379375800321

Lol Zelda actually has something "cancerous" now? :o

Ness B-Throw in terms of power...? HELL YEAH.

 

[「 Derk 」]

Assuming at this point that sakurai was abducted and replaced with a Zelda loving clone. Dear lord at all the buffs she is getting! Ness backthrow is something I never pictured zelda getting but no complaints here!

Nobody used her in the tournament so he is going to reverse all the hard work and adjustments since nobody took the time to try her out

 

[Altais]

Not sure if this has been posted already, but Zelda's down-special has been altered. This time, it's a trap-based move, which I like. The match starts at 3:29.

 

[Demon-oni]

Well Zelda b-throw wasn't exactly the worst kill option from the edge to begin with. It just kills like 25% earlier now or something like that. Still a significant buff either way. I'm glad things are finally starting to look up for Zelda, though frame data at the end of the day is still her biggest concern at this point now.

Just a warning to take numbered based changes like her bthrow with ease, as they are the easiest things to adjust both before release and in post.

 

[KlicKlac]

Zelda might be having the most amount of buffs, damn. Either Zelda or Ganondorf.

 

[Alacion]

Zelda might be having the most amount of buffs, damn. Either Zelda or Ganondorf.

She is getting two generations worth of buffs and compensation for nerfs... hopefully.

 

[Rickster]

Personally I'm more interested in how the big changes like Phantom and the game mechanics themselves affect her. So far the mechanics seem to favor her more than usual, especially the airdodge change and offstage gameplay

 

[Luminario]

This gameplay is abysmal and the guy didn't even let her show Zelda off but we get a few things like more Din's Fires and proof of no free-fall during it.

Can someone actually good at smash play our girl? Just once? just so we know what we're in for?

 

[KlicKlac]

https://twitter.com/NairoMK/status/1007017348195233792
Okay Nairo shot down dabuz's claim that zelda has a bthrow like ness.

 

[.Shìkì]

Whelp that is now dead.

 

[Alacion]

Too good to be true... well of course it is!

 

[Squii The Fish]

https://twitter.com/DabuzSenpai/status/1006998379375800321

Lol Zelda actually has something "cancerous" now? :o

I am just happy up b ladder is still a kill confirm.

Also the back throw deconfirmed by nairo as stated in the posts above.
I don't need back throw kills. So thats fine.

Back throw kills are for people who play C tier and up characters.
Das not me baby.

 

[BJN39]

Back throw kills are for people who play C tier and up characters.
Das not me baby.

Yea we play an F Tier char but at least she’s consistent

 

[Luminario]

Whoever just played Zelda on the stream should've thrown out Din's Fire much more often. Does Nayru look shorter and smaller? Also I barely saw any endlag on that Farore as she fell to her death

 

[KuroganeHammer]

smUsh?

 

[Aquatos]

Have we got a Discord or any concentrated place to store all of the info that we know so far? I could go about making a spreadsheet/server or something if it means keeping everything in one place to the point where it's not scattered titbits of info. A video repository of all pre-release matches would be awesome too.

 

[Squii The Fish]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=QrEGbh7mzmI

Larry lurr playing zelda.

Pretty good, but who do I gotta go too to get footage of up tilt and down tilt?

0:19
Also downair has two hits now
INTERASTIN

Down throw is still a nair confirm and possible bair/fair/up air confirm.
as it should be now and forever.

 

[Ffamran]

Huh, apparently you can view videos on YouTube frame-by-frame with , to move back a frame and . to move forward a frame. On a regular keyboard, it's also the < and > keys. I don't know reliable it is, but I'm thirsty for information, so I decided to look up something to view videos frame by frame.

I checked something "easy" with Falco's introductory video and Falco's dash attack seems to be frame 7 on startup. 1 frame faster than in Smash 4, but 3 frames slower than in Melee and Brawl, so it seems reasonable. That assumes the frame-by-frame on YouTube is accurate. I'm not sure what gameplay videos you could get for Zelda that you could check things frame-by-frame with her. Her introductory video shows her doing a jab after a D-throw to back roll, but I can't tell when her back roll ends.

View attachment 148179

Blame Cress! .

It's slow for me too yeah.
Forget numbers and just call it Smash Ultimate tbh. But that's still too long so... SmUsh.

This new game is now smUsh. No arguing against this is allowed.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

SSBU YOU FOOLS

 

[KlicKlac]

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/272801452
Leffen played Zelda at 7 hours 36 mins in.
Zelda now laughs when doing her wave taunt. It's so goooood.
Zelda's rapid jab looks safe on shield. It pushes them back.

 

[Alacion]

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/272801452
Leffen played Zelda at 7 hours 36 mins in.
Zelda now laughs when doing her wave taunt. It's so goooood.
Zelda's rapid jab looks safe on shield. It pushes them back.

Sigh, looks like sourspot kick does 3.7%. Leffen is either quite skilled at landing kicks or the hitbox must have improved :D

 

[SoulKinetix]

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/272801452
Leffen played Zelda at 7 hours 36 mins in.
Zelda now laughs when doing her wave taunt. It's so goooood.
Zelda's rapid jab looks safe on shield. It pushes them back.

Wow, leffen was way too close to Ike most of the time and didn’t use Zelda’s range to his advantage lol. But yeah B-air looks great. Idk if I’d use it as a spacing tool like Leffen did lol. Up-air looks promising too! Up-tilt looks like it still chains too. Glad to see some live feed footage of 1v1 Zelda

 

[KlicKlac]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oXB6ELs7gc

Nairo using Zelda!

 

[Ffamran]

Okay, this might work. From Zelda's section in the Smash Ultimate Direct when she fights Meta Knight. She does a sidestep, standing grab, U-throw, hop, and Nair followed by a Side Smash before the cut to her Final Smash. I'm not going to try and guess what frame anyone's dodges are nor will I deal with throws, but her standing grab and Nair are doable. Side Smash is shown being done charged, so I'm not going to try counting that.

The starting point for her grab is when she suddenly shifts from her sidestep's ending animation to what looks like frame 1 of her standing grab's animation. It's when you see her pink sash thing flip out basically. Meta Knight gets grabbed on frame 10. So, her standing grab's startup and active frames are possibly the same as in Smash 4: frames 10-11, 2 active frames. No idea on the recovery, though, since she didn't whiff it nor do we know if there's been a universal grab recovery increase.

After U-throw, she does a hop. The starting point for her hop is the frame after her pink sash clips into her dress where it looks like she's beginning to crouch for a jump. Zelda's in the air at frame 4. Someone said jumps are frame 3, so there's that and the frame she's in the air looks like the startup of her Nair since her arms at outstretched.

From the previous point where her arms are outstretched, she hits Meta Knight with Nair on frame 6. After that, it looks like two more hits are followed before Meta Knight is sent flying. If this is accurate, then Nair is still frame 6 on startup, but it's a three-hit move now. The three-hit part you can disregard since I can't tell exactly. If the frame she's in the air isn't part of Nair, then it's frame 5 on startup.

In her introductory video, I said I couldn't tell when her back roll ends, but there is a frame similar to when she sticks out her arm, her jab, after the tower falls on top of Link. It's the frame when she reels back which if that's the case, then her jab is possibly frame 4 since she hits Diddy on frame 4 and fully extends her arm in the scene with Link on frame 4 from the frame with her reeling back. That is significantly faster than her Smash 4 jab which was frame 11; 7 frames faster.

Also, I just noticed Zelda's wearing heels.

Edit: Okay, that's weird. I went to the Squid Sisters section in the Direct and Falco's airborne on frame 3, but it's hard to tell since he was hit before his jump and doesn't enter into his idle stance for long. My starting point was when he drops down and his left wing is lowered. If his jump startup frame is before that, then it would be 4 like Zelda's.

Wow, I'm an idiot. There's another part later where Falco is completely idle and jumps. He's airborne on frame 4 since he does the same almost crouch before the wing drop from his idle.

Edit 2: Edit Harder: Nope, Falco, Zelda, and everyone else have frame 3 jumps and become airborne on frame 4. The first airborne frame is not counted as part of their jump frames.

 

[Kyle B]

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/272801452
Leffen played Zelda at 7 hours 36 mins in.
Zelda now laughs when doing her wave taunt. It's so goooood.
Zelda's rapid jab looks safe on shield. It pushes them back.

13-34 with a sweetspot so only 21 damage, 76-102 26 damage this time...hmmm, another for 0-21.4, 54-71 (17)
seems inconsistent for some reason, but definitely looks easier to land.
Nayru's love is not safe on shield, not sure about jab being safe, the last stock it did not push as much and looked more punishable
up-air looks like it has very short end lag, I don't think Zelda is even in the animation by the time it hits.
killed with fair at effectively 76% (102% at end of damage calculation, no zoom in though)
Just what I seen from it

 

[Squii The Fish]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oXB6ELs7gc

Nairo using Zelda!

DOWN TILT LOOKS BEAUTIFUL AND STILL TWO FRAMES

BASED NAIRO SHOWING GOOD GAMEPLAY

PAPA BLESS

 

[Luminario]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oXB6ELs7gc

Nairo using Zelda!

Finally some more Din's Fires. I wonder with how fast it is now if it's gonna be a worthy projectile to pester with. Flurry jab was a fantastic idea for her too. Also LOVING the new win animations, she's got such personality this time around.

 

[Katy Parry]

I can’t believe this. She’s top tier. Bc everyone is. Because all the mechanics are finally implemented the waySakurai originally intended

 

[KlicKlac]

Her victory poses are so adorable I hit to webm them.

 

[KlicKlac]

Best taunt.

 

[Katy Parry]

From the direct:

“Zelda is more regal and elegant than the other fighters, but we made sure you wouldn’t underestimate her energetic attacks.”

 

[Ffamran]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oXB6ELs7gc

Nairo using Zelda!

I did some some checks on what I could try and see and jab is really frame 4, Dtilt seems still be frame 5, and dash attack seems to be frame 6. Fair looks like it's frame 5. At around 0:55 to 0:56, Nairo does a Dtilt to hop Fair. The starting point is the frame of animation Zelda looks like she's turning around to begin her kick for Fair and right about on the fourth frame when she's in the air. From there, the Inkling gets hit on frame 5. That's 1 frame faster than her Bair and 4 frames faster than her Fair in Smash 4. Bair looks like it's frame 6. At 1:05 to 1:06, Nairo does a D-throw and tries to connect it with Bair. The starting point is a little rough. In the video, it looks like there's two of her and she looks like she's about to turn, from there to when her foot starts to glow gold is on frame 6. I never really understood why Fair was slower in the previous games. Sure, it's "easier" since you don't have to turn around, but it's not like Fair and Bair are easy to sweet-spot and to throw out randomly because the sour-spot and landing lag were bad.

Things I'm not sure about are Side Smash, dash grab, pivot grab, Nayru's Love, and Farore's Wind. Side Smash is frame 13, but more likely 16? At 1:20 to 1:21, Zelda lands and turns around to do a Side Smash. If you go with the moment there's a sparkle, then she hits on frame 13. The safer bet is the frame she begins to turn, indicated by a frame where she shifts her weight and the following frame showing her almost turned around, which is 3 frames before the sparkle. That would mean her Side Smash is frame 16 just like in Smash 4. There's also a moment where Zelda lands at around 1:38 and she does a Side Smash. Right after she lands, she does a Side Smash and I think that's visible by the frame right after her landing being a drastic change in animation. Frame 16 is when the golden magic hands are out.

Dash grab looks like frame 10, but it might be frame 11 which is a safer bet since it's her Smash 4 dash grab startup. Pivot grab is another story. It looks like it's frame 14. Nairo does a pivot grab at around 0:22 to 0:23 and the frame I started with is right when it looks like she turns around. From there to the orange grab effect, is 14 frames. If this is true, then dash and pivot grabs won't share startup like in Smash 4 and will resemble Brawl's where they had different startup. In this case, pivot grabs, well, Zelda's, is her slowest grab. Yeah, I'm going to say wait until the game's released for this one, frame data is confirmed by datamining, and if it feels universal that everyone's pivot grabs are slower.

Nayru's Love is frame 11 or more probable, frame 13? I'm not entirely sure since it's hard to see the animation changes. Around 0:35 to 0:36, Zelda lands and turns white or maybe blue at a certain frame. I used that as the starting point which would make Nayru's Love frame 11. At around 2:03 to 2:04, Nairo does two Nayru's Loves and the second hits. In this part, there's a there's two frames of animation where Zelda goes from idle to beginning a windup for a spin to a windup where she crouches down a little. On the first attempt, Nairo doesn't hit anything, but on the second attempt, he does it again and the same animation windup crouch can be seen and preceded by the beginning to wind up animation.

Farore's Wind's first hit seems to be frame 8 and the second hit was on frame 46 according the Inkling's percentage when it was used at the end of the match. Zelda herself reappears on frame 43. Nairo only landed it out of shield in the two instances it hit, so it's difficult to see on top of it being recorded off-screen. Startup seems to be the same, but I'm not sure on the second hit. My only guess is that Farore's Wind might travel further which could explain it's later hit or the change in knockback necessitated it being slower or else she would have reappeared before her opponent made it up that high.

I'm going to stop there, since it's starting to hurt my eyes because of how the game was recorded and trying to pick out frames of animation changes.

Edit: Remember that this video was recorded off-screen and I'm trying to judge when move animations begin, so I may and will be wrong on these. Also, it's a demo build and subject to change.

 

[KlicKlac]

Thanks for the write-up Ffamran!. Zelda's jab looks really good now, and everything looks a little faster. Dunno how much this will help zelda, but she definitely has to be out of bottom tier now.