Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

[OmegaSorin]

Thanks, it's been years since I last played Melee. I remember when I first played Brawl I thought that Lucario was a Mewtwo clone, but that's probably because I hardly spent any time with either of the characters.


When I look at clones, the first thing that I notice is the shared specials. Specials are, in my eyes, the most important part of creating a unique fighter. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

I'm not trying to be ignorant here, I do know that he's different from Fox in many ways. Perhaps I'm just too caught up on his specials to see how unique of a fighter he really is.

Mewtwo and Lucario have similar traits, such as Mewtwo's Dark Sphere, vs Lucario's Aura Sphere, but that is pretty much where the similarities end. Mewtwo uses a majority of his abilities through his psychic powers, while Lucario is more physical based and melee due to his Fighting/Steel type line up.

Glad I'm not the only one who would've liked to see Zelda with a rapier. Maybe she could take some inspiration from Mitsuru...

Mitsuru approves of this message.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I bet using Light Arrows would do 1% to her just like Pichu's Thundershock.

But unlike Pichu's Thundershock, it would also put her in freefall.

...

 

[Ffamran]

When I look at clones, the first thing that I notice is the shared specials. Specials are, in my eyes, the most important part of creating a unique fighter. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

I'm not trying to be ignorant here, I do know that he's different from Fox in many ways. Perhaps I'm just too caught up on his specials to see how unique of a fighter he really is.

Specials aren't everything and saying they had "near-identical movesets" is a lot like saying Captain Falcon goes 20:80 Rosalina. That's a severe statement. If you said something like, "I wished Wolf didn't have the same specials as Fox and Falco, he'd be someone I'd want back in SSB", that would be fine, but saying he has a near-identical moveset to Fox and Falco is a severe statement.

Also, even without having different moves, Captain Falcon and Ganondorf played completely different to each other in Melee which can still be said with Mario and Dr. Mario even though Dr. Mario is closer to a semi-clone now. As for Pit and Dark Pit? Yeah, they can be played like 90% the same with only their Upperdash and Electroshock Arm being different and Dark Pit not having a tipper for one of his attacks and Silver Bow not being able to guide arrows as well and dealing slightly more damage. Even Marth and Lucina are similar enough that Lucina gets shoved into the inferior version of Marth. Roy? Roy fought up close while Marth fought with spaced hits and used close hits to combo; that's different. Lucina can't space well nor can she fight up close to combo well like Marth. That patch better make them more like Melee clones where they actually fight differently than be almost identical like what the Pits are or with Lucina not having tippers or safe on shield attacks making her Marth, but not as good.

There's a difference between cloning someone and making them like a shoto like how Ryu and Ken are and then there's outright copy and pasting a moveset and adjusting minor things and calling that a "new fighter". I will even argue that Wolf is a clone of several characters; Nair is like Sonic and Pikachu's, Dair is Diddy's, Bair is like Fox's or Falco's, but faster without the sex kick property on Falco's old Bair, Fair is like Bowser and Sheik's, Down Smash is like Marth, Link, Toon Link, Ike, and Roy's, F-throw is sort of similar to Marth's, D-throw is like Sonic's property wise, Up Smash is Sonic's Uair, you get the idea, right? That said, I'd rather take "unique" movesets, semi-clones, and Melee clones/shoto in that order over straight up clones.

 

[OmegaSorin]

Specials aren't everything and saying they had "near-identical movesets" is a lot like saying Captain Falcon goes 20:80 Rosalina. That's a severe statement. If you said something like, "I wished Wolf didn't have the same specials as Fox and Falco, he'd be someone I'd want back in SSB", that would be fine, but saying he has a near-identical moveset to Fox and Falco is a severe statement.

Also, even without having different moves, Captain Falcon and Ganondorf played completely different to each other in Melee which can still be said with Mario and Dr. Mario even though Dr. Mario is closer to a semi-clone now. As for Pit and Dark Pit? Yeah, they can be played like 90% the same with only their Upperdash and Electroshock Arm being different and Dark Pit not having a tipper for one of his attacks and Silver Bow not being able to guide arrows as well and dealing slightly more damage. Even Marth and Lucina are similar enough that Lucina gets shoved into the inferior version of Marth. Roy? Roy fought up close while Marth fought with spaced hits and used close hits to combo; that's different. Lucina can't space well nor can she fight up close to combo well like Marth. That patch better make them more like Melee clones where they actually fight differently than be almost identical like what the Pits are or with Lucina not having tippers or safe on shield attacks making her Marth, but not as good.

There's a difference between cloning someone and making them like a shoto like how Ryu and Ken are and then there's outright copy and pasting a moveset and adjusting minor things and calling that a "new fighter". I will even argue that Wolf is a clone of several characters; Nair is like Sonic and Pikachu's, Dair is Diddy's, Bair is like Fox's or Falco's, but faster without the sex kick property on Falco's old Bair, Fair is like Bowser and Sheik's, Down Smash is like Marth, Link, Toon Link, Ike, and Roy's, F-throw is sort of similar to Marth's, D-throw is like Sonic's property wise, Up Smash is Sonic's Uair, you get the idea, right? That said, I'd rather take "unique" movesets, semi-clones, and Melee clones/shoto in that order over straight up clones.

My issues stim from the fact that these moves that the characters are going to have, Ala Lucas and Wolf (If he gets approved) is also customs for Ness and Fox. So its like 'Whats going to happen to these?'

 

[Ffamran]

My issues stim from the fact that these moves that the characters are going to have, Ala Lucas and Wolf (If he gets approved) is also customs for Ness and Fox. So its like 'Whats going to happen to these?'

They might get kept as customs, so Fox will still have Wolf Flash, but they should change it Fox Flash. Or they could change the properties just to make it different in some way.

 

[OmegaSorin]

They might get kept as customs, so Fox will still have Wolf Flash, but they should change it Fox Flash or the properties just to make it different in some way.

That is something I think they should do, it would add a level of uniqueness once more to these characters. Cause keeping the customs its like... I dunno, just like why.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Her overall moveset will be buffed by 0.7%.


How is Wolf a clone of Fox?! That's like saying Iori Yagami is a clone of Kyo Kusanagi when Iori fights with claw-based martial arts and Kyo fights with kempo. The only thing they share are fire moves, which once again, Iori I believe uses them for close combat while Kyo uses them for ranged and kicks! @ CyberHyperPhoenix knows more.

I was called?

 

[Ffamran]

I was called?

Yesh. What are the differences between Iori and Kyo?

 

[Soul.]

Specials aren't everything

>CUSTOMS

 

[Fernosaur]

Lucas couldn't be farther from being a clone :'D. I know people think he's a Ness clone because lawl specials, but all of his moveset is super different, and Lucas has different attacks from everyone in the roster. I mean, no one else has an U-smash or D-smash like his, and even his Specials have a 100% different use than Ness's.

The difference between PK Freeze and Flash is arguable because they're both useless anyways.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Yesh. What are the differences between Iori and Kyo?

Depends.

You want me too compare Fireball Kyo to Iori, Rekka Kyo to Iori or just anything in general?

 

[Ffamran]

Lucas couldn't be farther from being a clone :'D. I know people think he's a Ness clone because lawl specials, but all of his moveset is super different, and Lucas has different attacks from everyone in the roster. I mean, no one else has an U-smash or D-smash like his, and even his Specials have a 100% different use than Ness's.

The difference between PK Freeze and Flash is arguable because they're both useless anyways.

Lucas and Mewtwo share a Down Smash.

Depends.

You want me too compare Fireball Kyo to Iori, Rekka Kyo to Iori or just anything in general?

In general, but I guess it won't be needed since... yeah.

 

[Brinzy]

Lucas and Mewtwo share a Down Smash.

I forgot about that.

WTF LAZY DEVELOPMENT

 

[warionumbah2]

Daffy Duck is on point today.

smh at Wolf being a clone top ****ing lel.

Luigi is a clone of Mario because they have the same Nair,Ftilt,Bair,Uair,Down smash,Up Smash,Up special,Neutral special,Back throw,Forward throw and Up throw.

 

[Macchiato]

I forgot about that.

WTF LAZY DEVELOPMENT

Zelda and rosalina share a dsmash

Megaman stole Zeldas brawl Usmash

Lucina stole Marths life

 

[Lavani]

I forgot about that.

WTF LAZY DEVELOPMENT

Now we know why Lucas was revealed alongside Mewtwo

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Lucas and Mewtwo share a Down Smash.


In general, but I guess it won't be needed since... yeah.

Screw it still gonna do it.

Fireball Kyo (KOF 94, 95 and XIII)
In KOF 95, Kyo and Iori had a similar moveset with having the same Fireball and DP (Uppercut) and having a similar HCB (Half Circle Back) while Kyo would lift opponents in to the air create an explosion, Iori would do the same thing except ram their head into the ground.

Rekka Kyo (KOF 96 - 2003)
After KOF 96, Kyo gets a Rekka based moveset which stays that way for the next 8 games.
In KOF 96 - 98, he still had his old HCB, but was changed from '99 onwards.

Rekka + Fireball Kyo (XI)
Speaks for itself. A combination of both movesets where Kyo got his fireball on his RQCF (Reverse Quater Circle Forward) + Punch.

 

[Fernosaur]

Lucas and Mewtwo share a Down Smash.


In general, but I guess it won't be needed since... yeah.

THEY WEREN'T EVEN IN THE SAME GAME OKAY?

 

[Jaguar360]

Changed avatar in Mewtwo hype and GIMP relearning. Still have to catch up with this thread even after skipping 18 pages :/

EDIT: Just realized the this was my 360th post!

 

[BJN39]

Smh all you gorls keep putting "storeable phantom" on your lists, I'm quite certain it will ever happen unless something like damage AND power being reduced happens otherwise it'll be really dumb, even for someone hew needs it like Zelda. But then it is weaker, which would suck too. I think my avatar sums up my thoughts.

Seeing that some moves (Palu's tilts come to mind.) actually got better FAFs, it's totally possible and fair imo that the move could get some sort of lag reduction. (And lord knows it needs it. The release animation is roughly 50 FRAMES long. Just pop it down to a FAF of 40 and it'll feel way better.)

...As well as the point-blank whiffing getting fixed...Unless dare I say Sakurai decided to keep it during development as a sort of 'designed weakness', but it has enough arbitrary weaknesses already. I mean, come on.

 

[FullMoon]

I kinda forget about Mewtwo because Lucas's reveal completely eclipsed him to me.

The funny thing about the reveal is that I was checking the chat where I hang with my friends and they were watching the direct while I was in college and looking at the logs I saw them talking about something that was going to get me really hyped and the announcement of a new DLC character. I pretty much my entire time at college going "Oh man is it Lucas? Did Nintendo show Lucas? Is Lucas coming back? Oh my god".

I never had that much anticipation for something before =P

 

[Lavani]

gorls how do i yoshi

i'm pressing nair but it's not winning for me

Smh all you gorls keep putting "storeable phantom" on your lists, I'm quite certain it will ever happen unless something like damage AND power being reduced happens otherwise it'll be really dumb, even for someone hew needs it like Zelda.

You're gonna have to sell me on that, because I'm not seeing how it'd be a better move than the likes of Charge Shot or Aura Sphere.

 

[Locke 06]

Gonna.... just put this here and run away. @_@

 

[Soul.]

hmm maybe i should put a wii u main for "secondary"
idk which one though

 

[kenniky]

- Get rid of Din's freefall. There is absolutely no reason this ability should cause freefall. It's the only ability in the game that I can think of in 5 seconds that does not help with recovery and sends you into freefall. What, do they think we're gonna ledgecamp with Din's or something?

Giant Punch and Burst Grenade do this too, and I think Goku's Kamehameha did in SSF2. It's really weird.

 

[Macchiato]

hmm maybe i should put a wii u main for "secondary"
idk which one though

Zelda

 

[Lavani]

Giant Punch and Burst Grenade do this too, and I think Goku's Kamehameha did in SSF2. It's really weird.

In a way, it kind of makes sense for Burst Grenade to do it. Zelda isn't allowed to escape her sideB putting her in helpless even if she transforms ;_;

Giant Punch doing it is dumb imo (I just learned about this last week) but I'd guess it's to prevent it from being used for low percent edgeguard KOs.

There isn't a legitimate reason for Din's to put Zelda in helpless, either way.

 

[Soul.]

Zelda

let me see the premium characters behind my posts

 

[Latte]

Specials aren't everything and saying they had "near-identical movesets" is a lot like saying Captain Falcon goes 20:80 Rosalina. That's a severe statement. If you said something like, "I wished Wolf didn't have the same specials as Fox and Falco, he'd be someone I'd want back in SSB", that would be fine, but saying he has a near-identical moveset to Fox and Falco is a severe statement.

Also, even without having different moves, Captain Falcon and Ganondorf played completely different to each other in Melee which can still be said with Mario and Dr. Mario even though Dr. Mario is closer to a semi-clone now. As for Pit and Dark Pit? Yeah, they can be played like 90% the same with only their Upperdash and Electroshock Arm being different and Dark Pit not having a tipper for one of his attacks and Silver Bow not being able to guide arrows as well and dealing slightly more damage. Even Marth and Lucina are similar enough that Lucina gets shoved into the inferior version of Marth. Roy? Roy fought up close while Marth fought with spaced hits and used close hits to combo; that's different. Lucina can't space well nor can she fight up close to combo well like Marth. That patch better make them more like Melee clones where they actually fight differently than be almost identical like what the Pits are or with Lucina not having tippers or safe on shield attacks making her Marth, but not as good.

There's a difference between cloning someone and making them like a shoto like how Ryu and Ken are and then there's outright copy and pasting a moveset and adjusting minor things and calling that a "new fighter". I will even argue that Wolf is a clone of several characters; Nair is like Sonic and Pikachu's, Dair is Diddy's, Bair is like Fox's or Falco's, but faster without the sex kick property on Falco's old Bair, Fair is like Bowser and Sheik's, Down Smash is like Marth, Link, Toon Link, Ike, and Roy's, F-throw is sort of similar to Marth's, D-throw is like Sonic's property wise, Up Smash is Sonic's Uair, you get the idea, right? That said, I'd rather take "unique" movesets, semi-clones, and Melee clones/shoto in that order over straight up clones.

You're actually completely right. While I still classify Wolf as a "clone" of Fox, I can see that he is unique enough to deserve a spot in the roster, though in the end I would still prefer a newcomer.

Spoiler

Thanks for the nicely-written and well thought out replies. Also thanks for changing my stance on clones so that I can appreciate more of the Smash roster :^) #pals

 

[warionumbah2]

Gonna.... just put this here and run away. @_@

 

[Fernosaur]

Gonna.... just put this here and run away. @_@

I love you for linking this ;_;

 

[Lavani]

Wow I just realized every pokemon has a projectile neutralB

Water Shuriken
Aura Sphere
Shadow Ball
Thunder Jolt
Flamethrower
Becomes a projectile

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

@ CatRaccoonBL
Oh wow @ that avi, I completely forgot about that costume.

I llooooove the outfit...But...speaking of this.

Amiibos.

Jigglypuff...why...I wanted you so bad. I vowed not to make the same mistake as Rosalina but I lose her anyway. I hate how Nintendo is doing amiibos.

I just wanted fun little figurines to display on my shelves. Why must I suffer? ;_;

I'm now worried I'm going to miss out on the Splatoon amiibos...*Sigh*

I'm back. What'd I miss?

Our wedding. ;_;

Here's all of Mewtwo's palettes that we've seen so far, in case anyone missed them or something.

I love the sea foam one and I'll probably be using it all the time.

Still waiting on mew color.

 

[kenniky]

Giant Punch doing it is dumb imo (I just learned about this last week) but I'd guess it's to prevent it from being used for low percent edgeguard KOs.

If you think about it, Giant Punch is like Falcon Punch except its startup time can be split up and the startup can be interrupted for less power and DK doesn't yell when he does it

so this makes sense

Din's drifting when you use it in the air could be implemented for a safe recovery though (blow up the ledge and float in) if you didn't go into helpless. Burst Grenade idk what they were thinking

maybe to troll noob Sheik players and BNF

Wow I just realized every pokemon has a projectile neutralB

Water Shuriken
Aura Sphere
Shadow Ball
Thunder Jolt
Flamethrower
Becomes a projectile

you tried

and you forgot

 

[Macchiato]

Wow I just realized every pokemon has a projectile neutralB

Water Shuriken
Aura Sphere
Shadow Ball
Thunder Jolt
Flamethrower
Becomes a projectile

Sing is a projectile right?

You're actually completely right. While I still classify Wolf as a "clone" of Fox, I can see that he is unique enough to deserve a spot in the roster, though in the end I would still prefer a newcomer.

Spoiler

Thanks for the nicely-written and well thought out replies. Also thanks for changing my stance on clones so that I can appreciate more of the Smash roster :^) #pals

the spot belongs to special girls like agitha

 

[Locke 06]

If giant punch didn't free fall it'd be OP as an edge guarding tool. It is already such a good offstage suicide tool... Although the aerial super armor is really tough to utilize. Run off B-reverse 10-wind punch on a ledge regrab is beautiful.

It is annoying when you use in on the ledge vs someone and get pushed off stage because they blocked it.

@ warionumbah2 & @ Fernosaur - yes. Those were pretty much the responses I was expecting. The concert is amazing and my work playlist right now.

Edit: lavaniiiiiiii... Lol I guess I didn't read your post fully because I missed the part that was quoted. Thought you ninja'd me.

 

[Latte]

Sing is a projectile right?

the spot belongs to special girls like agitha

this tbh^^^^^^^

Also, I'm drinking caramel @ Macchiato coffee right now

#coffeepals

 

[Macchiato]

this tbh^^^^^^^

Also, I'm drinking caramel @ Macchiato coffee right now

#coffeepals

Yew go gorl

#coffeepals

 

[Soul.]

lol giratina-o suspect was april fools.
good one smogon

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Me when I kill someone at 30% with a rage elevator