Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

[Ffamran]

OMG. Motherfreaking Diddy's goddamned Side Smash has so much range and so much power. Falco gets caught at the ledge easily, but this stupid move like outranges Shulk's Side Smash not to mention outspeeding it by a goddamned mile!

Edit: IT DOES 16%!? GO TO HELL SSB4 DIDDY!

 

[Berserker.]

OMG. Motherfreaking Diddy's goddamned Side Smash has so much range and so much power. Falco gets caught at the ledge easily, but this stupid move like outranges Shulk's Side Smash not to mention outspeeding it by a goddamned mile!

Dat hyperbole tho

but ****, I can't believe it deals as much damage and comes out even faster.

 

[Blossom ✿]

Is the Diddy CPU on the 3DS like... stupid? I decided to mess around with Lv. 8 CPUs - Lv. 9's read your input, so screw that - against Dr. Mario, Ganondorf, Meta Knight, and now Diddy. Of those 4, Diddy is stupidest one. Ganondorf is fun since he punishes you for everything stupid you do and so does Dr. Mario. One thing, do people use Dr. Mario's D-throw to Dair? The CPU did. Meta Knight was all right except for the constant misuse of Shuttle Loop out of D-throw. The only remotely smart thing Diddy did was Dtilt to Ftilt. Everything else was like walking around, using Banana Peel near the ledge which, well... yeah... and charging Peanut Popgun almost at pointblank and using it instead of recovering...

Still better than Melee's AI though, haha.
I've never had Diddy do stupid things like that. Granted, I'm on Wii U and not 3DS but still.
Fox for me seems to be about as dumb as bricks. One time, I just walked circles around him and he couldn't catch me.
He also fell for the ganoncide like three times in a row. I still have the replay of that too.

 

[NairWizard]

Zelda has to approach ZSS because ZSS has more range and a lot more speed in general. She has a few safe options against Zelda's shield and can actually reliably shield poke with enough pressure. Maybe I just suck, but I'm certain ZSS is Zelda's worst matchup by far for many more reasons besides this.

1) None of this makes Zelda have to approach when she is in the lead (OK, big deal, ZSS is shield-pressuring you, why will that coax you to approach her? she's obviously the one doing the approaching if she's pressuring your shield trying to get you to come out). If you're in the lead there's no reason to safely pressure a shield. You can just wait, or move around and assert stage control. Falcon doesn't have to approach in the lead. Neither does ZSS. Neither does Zelda.
2) Falcon's jab has *way* better pressure than anything ZSS has, including her n-air. The thing is crazy ridiculous. Not only that, but empty hop from Falcon is scarier than empty hop from ZSS because his dash grab is way better due to not being a tether and because he's faster on the ground.

Zelda is generally going to approach Sonic because sitting by waiting for Sonic to run up to you and attack you will mean he has a free chance to either grab or hit you, and even if Zelda predicts properly, he can move right back out to safety.

You can replace Sonic in this sentence with Falcon and it will still hold true.

Except that I disagree that Zelda needs to approach Sonic if she has the lead. I agree that she shouldn't remain stationary, but there is a difference between moving and approaching. Sonic is not threatening from long-range. He is threatening from midrange. The same is true of Falcon, but Falcon has more options in midrange, which makes him harder to predict.

If Zelda is in the lead, she doesn't need to approach Sonic or Falcon, but if she did need to approach one of the two (in some other dimension where smash 4 is a different game), it would be Falcon, not Sonic.

You boiled Falcon's options down to dash, grab, jab, and aerial (which is not representative of his actual options, because the response to pivots/crossups, for example, is way different from the response to forward-facing approaches, but let's go with it). If that's the case, then Sonic's options can be boiled down to spindash/dash, grab, and jab. Notice how they are the same, but Sonic doesn't have "aerial" there? Because his aerials aren't as safe as Falcon's on shield. From where I'm standing, I see Falcon as safer on shield. They're both fast, but Falcon has more range on his jab, and aerials that he can use on a shield. What does Sonic have to compensate for that? How is Sonic safer?

And, if you say Falcon is lacking when he's at a disadvantage, would that not mean he's much easier to deal with than characters who are problematic for Zelda at all stages of the game, even when she's ahead? I'm not saying that you said this - I'm just trying to tie in my original point with our discussion.

Zelda is good vs. Falcon for the same reason that everyone is good vs. Falcon: he sucks in disadvantage. He has one of the worst recoveries and his n-air is hard to use to escape juggles. Sonic is harder for Zelda than Falcon, yes, because Sonic is good in disadvantage.

But saying that Falcon has to approach Zelda and that Falcon isn't safe in neutral? That's more like misinformation/misguidance than anything.

edit: pfff quote tags

 

[Lavani]

I see CPU Fox SD constantly going for ff fair gimps (I assume, anyway; I'd be really amazed/disappointed if he was doing nothing but fastfalling offstage)

 

[Ffamran]

Dat hyperbole tho

but ****, I can't believe it deals as much damage and comes out even faster.

It does 16%! FREAKING 16%! The move's like a frame 12 move! The range, power, and speed already makes it feel stronger than Mario and Samus's fast Side Smashes or Ganondorf's powerful one. At least it doesn't kill close to Marth's tipper Side Smash. Oh, wait. It killed me before at the ledge at 70%! REALLY?! Falco's freaking Side Smash does 15% and it's a frame 17 move! Oh, and kills near 100% if you're near the goddamned ledge. MEANWHILE, DIDDY! I'm playing a CPU who can't even combo for **** and it's ******* me off!

 

[Blossom ✿]

Another thing I noticed with CPUs is that they have a weird obsession with constantly air dodging whenever you try to pursue them off stage. CPU Donkey Kong dies a lot from constantly air dodging offstage since he keeps putting himself in a position where he's too low to recover. This happens at least once a match btw.

 

[Brinzy]

1) None of this makes Zelda have to approach when she is in the lead (OK, big deal, ZSS is shield-pressuring you, why will that coax you to approach her? she's obviously the one doing the approaching if she's pressuring your shield trying to get you to come out). If you're in the lead there's no reason to safely pressure a shield. You can just wait, or move around and assert stage control. Falcon doesn't have to approach in the lead. Neither does ZSS. Neither does Zelda.
2) Falcon's jab has *way* better pressure than anything ZSS has, including her n-air. The thing is crazy ridiculous. Not only that, but empty hop from Falcon is scarier than empty hop from ZSS because his dash grab is way better due to not being a tether and because he's faster on the ground.

ZSS outranging Zelda means pressuring Zelda's shield is still forcing her to physically move over to ZSS and do something... and if Falcon's jab is good pressure, I can't see how you think ZSS can't put out anywhere close to that level of pressure. Pretty sure ZSS has a frame 1 jab.

My point with the shield scenario is that ZSS can freely approach Zelda safely and still be advantageous, even though Zelda isn't forced to do something she's really awful at.

I don't think you realize just how awful this matchup is for Zelda. I will take empty short hops and jabs from Falcon any day over someone with a slightly worse neutral that has a plethora of issues for Zelda to deal with.

You can replace Sonic in this sentence with Falcon and it will still hold true.

Except that I disagree that Zelda needs to approach Sonic if she has the lead. I agree that she shouldn't remain stationary, but there is a difference between moving and approaching. Sonic is not threatening from long-range. He is threatening from midrange. The same is true of Falcon, but Falcon has more options in midrange, which makes him harder to predict.

If Zelda is in the lead, she doesn't need to approach Sonic or Falcon, but if she did need to approach one of the two (in some other dimension where smash 4 is a different game), it would be Falcon, not Sonic.

You boiled Falcon's options down to dash, grab, jab, and aerial (which is not representative of his actual options, because the response to pivots/crossups, for example, is way different from the response to forward-facing approaches, but let's go with it). If that's the case, then Sonic's options can be boiled down to spindash/dash, grab, and jab. Notice how they are the same, but Sonic doesn't have "aerial" there? Because his aerials aren't as safe as Falcon's on shield. From where I'm standing, I see Falcon as safer on shield. They're both fast, but Falcon has more range on his jab, and aerials that he can use on a shield. What does Sonic have to compensate for that? How is Sonic safer?

I see your purpose and what you're going for - Falcon has more approaching options than Sonic. I can agree with that. I can also agree with Sonic having to approach if he's behind.

I would have to say that Sonic's ability to punish is greater. I would also have to say that Sonic is still safer when going in than Falcon, because when he attempts to hit you with something, he has a much greater chance at not getting punished for it over Falcon. This ignores the fact that he's just as dangerous at causing you to make a mistake and getting punished as Falcon.

I guess what I am trying to get at here is having 30 ways to approach but virtually no ways to actually be safe if you fail doesn't beat 5 ways to approach but being safe on 4 of them. Hyperbole numbers, but just trying to illustrate a point.

Zelda is good vs. Falcon for the same reason that everyone is good vs. Falcon: he sucks in disadvantage. He has one of the worst recoveries and his n-air is hard to use to escape juggles. Sonic is harder for Zelda than Falcon, yes, because Sonic is good in disadvantage.

But saying that Falcon has to approach Zelda and that Falcon isn't safe in neutral? That's more like misinformation/misguidance than anything.

edit: pfff quote tags

If I said somewhere that Falcon isn't safe in neutral, I'm sorry, but that isn't what I meant. I glanced over my posts and I did not see me saying that anywhere, but maybe I did say it and didn't realize. It's happened before.

I know that I did say Falcon is the easiest to punish for making a mistake of all the fast high tier characters... and as far as I know and based on your Falcon knowledge, that seems to be true.

 

[Ffamran]

Another thing I noticed with CPUs is that they have a weird obsession with constantly air dodging whenever you try to pursue them off stage. CPU Donkey Kong dies a lot from constantly air dodging offstage since he keeps putting himself in a position where he's too low to recover. This happens at least once a match btw.

The Lv. 8 CPUs have a habit of spamming air dodge and making it impossible to hit them like in For Glory... At least I can go deep off-stage with Falco and gimp them. Why don't people follow Diddy off-stage again? It might be the characters since aside from Pikachu, Sheik and maybe Rosalina, the current cast of contenders for high and top tiers can't really go off-stage well or deep. Fox's off-stage game consists of Nair to gimp and hopefully landing a Fair spike which is difficult and Sonic's off-stage game aside from Spring Jump gimping, I don't know what he could do. Captain Falcon's linear as hell, but effective. If he gets the Knee or Nipple spike, you're toast, but then there's the chance to gimp with the Capt.'s Nair if I remember correctly, and I guess people should be wary of a Captain Falcon recovering with Raptor Boost since he can and will spike you. ZSS can Flip Jump spike while Luigi can spike with Dair or Luigi Cyclone, but you have to be able to mash quickly like Boss or risk falling to your death like a fool. There's stage spiking, but that's universal and not really going deep to kill Diddy.

Meta Knight, the Pits, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Villager, Falco, and I think Wii Fit Trainer are all capable of going deep and gimping people easily. The most notorious being Jigglypuff and Villager who with a slingshot for a Bair and Fair just wrecks people off stage. Shulk with Monado Arts can do this too and Palutena with customs already makes people look like juggling pins. I don't know Greninja's off-stage game, but I know what you can do with Hydro Pump and Mario's FLUDD along with the Gust Cape and Dr. Mario's Gust Sheet and Doctor Tornado.

Maybe I'm just brave or stupid since I go off-stage a lot even when I shouldn't be to try and do something. Online, it's a pain since it's difficult to time anything except for Ganondorf's Uair because people are already near the ledge and he can drop down and flip them off.

Nair gimping... Falco can definitely do that and soft-stage spike with Nair. Dair's sourspot can gimp Ganondorf and I guess other people with weaker recoveries. It's just funny how he hits them slightly above and away from the ledge and it's enough for them to not make it back to the stage. Oh, and Up Smash is stupid as hell on Battlefield. The first hit connecting means 4% and WHOOPS, bye-bye enemy. It's not like I wanted that full 16% or anything... I think you can reverse Up Smash to get the 12%, but it's stupid as hell and no wonder BltzZ said Utilt was fantastic on BF - I think Utilt has slightly more vertical range than Up Smash. Falco's Dtilt might outrange Meta Knight's as sad as that seems. I think the disjoint on Falco's Dtilt makes it slightly longer than Meta Knight's Dtilt.

 

[Antonykun]

Are Jessie and James Zelda mains?
No wonder the always lose :kappa:

 

[NairWizard]

I don't think you realize just how awful this matchup is for Zelda. I will take empty short hops and jabs from Falcon any day over someone with a slightly worse neutral that has a plethora of issues for Zelda to deal with.

I'm not arguing that Falcon is a harder matchup for Zelda than ZSS. I was initially saying that "Falcon's tricks are predictable" (the original statement to which I responded, or something near it) is erroneous. Falcon is one of the most unpredictable characters in neutral.

I would also have to say that Sonic is still safer when going in than Falcon, because when he attempts to hit you with something, he has a much greater chance at not getting punished for it over Falcon.

I guess what I am trying to get at here is having 30 ways to approach but virtually no ways to actually be safe if you fail doesn't beat 5 ways to approach but being safe on 4 of them. Hyperbole numbers, but just trying to illustrate a point.

While your principle is valid, I asked this question in the previous post: how and why is Sonic safer? Because f-smash is safer? Because of spring? These are minor advantages; Falcon's jab is safer, and his aerials are safer. More than enough of a counteradvantage.

So I'm claiming that Falcon has 30 ways to approach (using your hyperbole numbers) and is safe on 24 of them, whereas Sonic has 5 ways to approach and is safe on 4 of them, so Falcon is better in neutral overall.

I know that I did say Falcon is the easiest to punish for making a mistake of all the fast high tier characters... and as far as I know and based on your Falcon knowledge, that seems to be true.

Not quite. You get the most out of punishing Falcon for a mistake because he is bad in disadvantage. This means that when you get one hit in on Falcon, you get many hits in on Falcon. He's a fastfaller. He's heavy. His n-air is a middling escape tool. His recovery is bad. All of this means that you can convert one hit on Falcon into many hits. This doesn't make Falcon less safe, more predictable, or more punishable. It just means he gets punished harder for being tossed around.

No point to continuing this discussion here, but I will add that if Falcon had Bouncing Fish, I'd vote for him as best character in the game.

 

[Ffamran]

No point to continuing this discussion here, but I will add that if Falcon had Bouncing Fish, I'd vote for him as best character in the game.

Captain Falcon with Bouncing Fish would be hilarious looking. You're talking about a muscled-man flopping about and killing with that move.

 

[Antonykun]

It does 16%! FREAKING 16%! The move's like a frame 12 move! The range, power, and speed already makes it feel stronger than Mario and Samus's fast Side Smashes or Ganondorf's powerful one. At least it doesn't kill close to Marth's tipper Side Smash. Oh, wait. It killed me before at the ledge at 70%! REALLY?! Falco's freaking Side Smash does 15% and it's a frame 17 move! Oh, and kills near 100% if you're near the goddamned ledge. MEANWHILE, DIDDY! I'm playing a CPU who can't even combo for **** and it's ******* me off!

Pffft Swordfighter U-air is frame 10 or 11 and deals 16 (default) kills early AND it's just one move.

 

[SBphiloz4]

So I missed character MU discussion drama and d*ck pics?

I MISSED OUT ON TOO MUCH GORLS

ALSO WE NEED TO PLAN A RAID FOR THIS WEDNESDAY. LIKE IT'S. A. MUST.

 

[Lavani]

The red tyrants are going after me for censor dodging.

WHAT HAS THE WORLD COME DOWN TO.

You forgot to use big red letters.

 

[Ffamran]

Pffft Swordfighter U-air is frame 10 or 11 and deals 16 (default) kills early AND it's just one move.

That's stronger than Ganondorf and Captain Falcon's Uair... But it's not as fast as theirs or... Diddy's. Wasn't this the only good move people said MSF had? Also, Mii Gunner's Side Smash, Fair, and Uair's range. Top that.

Anyway, how much range does Diddy's Up Smash have? It freaking scoops me up while I'm standing away from him. Falco can't do that nor can Yoshi or Fox!

 

[Brinzy]

@ NairWizard , I appreciate the discussion.

I hope I did not annoy you or anything.

 

[NairWizard]

@ NairWizard , I appreciate the discussion.

I hope I did not annoy you or anything.

Nope, not at all, no worries. Just figured that it was a bit of a pointless discussion, since I agree with you that Falcon vs. Zelda is not as bad as Zelda vs. Sonic or ZSS.

 

[FullMoon]

Okay I just fought a Pikachu who abuses Quick Attack like crazy for the first time.

How am I supposed to deal with that again?

 

[Brinzy]

Okay I just fought a Pikachu who abuses Quick Attack like crazy for the first time.

How am I supposed to deal with that again?

Dude, even newborns have the right answer for this.

Two of them.

One on each hand.

Yeah.


I hate Pikachu.

EDIT: I think I poorly delivered that one, so I'll just say it.

The middle finger bruh.

 

[Soul.]

Okay I just fought a Pikachu who abuses Quick Attack like crazy for the first time.

How am I supposed to deal with that again?

replay or bust

 

[Berserker.]

So I missed character MU discussion drama and d*ck pics?

I MISSED OUT ON TOO MUCH GORLS

ALSO WE NEED TO PLAN A RAID FOR THIS WEDNESDAY. LIKE IT'S. A. MUST.

Are you guys really going to ambush the Melee Foxes or Diddys? Lol

 

[Blossom ✿]

Are you guys really going to ambush the Melee Foxes or Diddys? Lol

That would be so much fun to watch take place, don't lie, haha.

 

[Antonykun]

That's stronger than Ganondorf and Captain Falcon's Uair... But it's not as fast as theirs or... Diddy's. Wasn't this the only good move people said MSF had? Also, Mii Gunner's Side Smash, Fair, and Uair's range. Top that.

Anyway, how much range does Diddy's Up Smash have? It freaking scoops me up while I'm standing away from him. Falco can't do that nor can Yoshi or Fox!

I was about to say something but then I remembered Aerial Assault fully charged and how you can SD by overshooting the stage.
Have I mentioned that it's a silly move.

 

[FullMoon]

By the way Pikachu might not be as good as Diddy but he's certainly SS+ tier in annoyance.

Pi Pi Pikachu Pi Pi Pi Pi Pi Pi Pikachu Pi Pi Pi Pi Pika Pika Pi Pi Pi Pi Pikachu Pi Pi Pi Pi

My god it just doesn't shut up.

 

[2004Zilla]

If we're raiding the Foxes I'm changing my avatar to...

Spoiler: F*** yeah

 

[Antonykun]

By the way Pikachu might not be as good as Diddy but he's certainly SS+ tier in annoyance.

Pi Pi Pikachu Pi Pi Pi Pi Pi Pi Pikachu Pi Pi Pi Pi Pika Pika Pi Pi Pi Pi Pikachu Pi Pi Pi Pi

My god it just doesn't shut up.

That gif... looks like me while watching ADHD Villager.

 

[Rickster]

I am so done with this joke. It can go rot with Brawl.

THANK. YOU. BJN. SIS.

Oh and @ Lavani Jab can only reflect Gordos when fresh? Assuming that Gordos stale moves that hit them, this hasn't happened to me. I stood on one end of the stage reflecting several of them once...eh maybe I'm just being dumb, haha.

Oh and on this whole Ganondorf vs Zelda thing, I think it's even. And yes, perfectly played Ganondorf and Zelda can be terrifying.

As for Falcon...it's not as horrible as I originally thought. The sassy palm Jab just...stops Falcon. He can't handle the sass.

 

[NairWizard]

Honestly, I used to take people to Pokemon Stadium in Brawl so that I could spam Tjolts during the transformation and make Pikachu go "Pika--chu! Pika--chu! Pika--chu!" while I sang the original Pokemon theme song aloud.

Man, I am evil.

 

[Lavani]

Assuming that Gordos stale moves that hit them

They don't.

 

[Ffamran]

Okay I just fought a Pikachu who abuses Quick Attack like crazy for the first time.

How am I supposed to deal with that again?

Play as a Ground-type.

 

[Berserker.]

I'm kinda surprised to see that a good number of people here are actually annoyed of the yellow rat

 

[Blossom ✿]

I'm kinda surprised to see that a good number of people here are actually annoyed of the yellow rat

Well, considering I main two characters that pretty much lose to Pikachu, the irritation that comes along with fighting the rodent isn't terribly shocking. I want to try to get the MU down for Ganon and ROB, but that's easier said than done.

 

[FullMoon]

Play as a Ground-type.

... Actually now that you mention it we surprisingly don't have any characters in Smash that manipulates earth.

But seriously geez, I didn't realize how obnoxious Quick Attack was until now.

 

[Berserker.]

Well, considering I main two characters that pretty much lose to Pikachu, the irritation that comes along with fighting the rodent isn't terribly shocking. I want to try to get the MU down for Ganon and ROB, but that's easier said than done.

I meant on a personal level. Something that goes beyond fighting him in Smash (It's more about the actual character itself)

 

[Soul.]

Greninja is annoying when it was in OU.
Protean Protean Protean Life Orb Hydro Pump Low Kick Frog Gunk Shot Smogon

 

[Lavani]

Okay I just fought a Pikachu who abuses Quick Attack like crazy for the first time.

How am I supposed to deal with that again?

Just play Diddy.

 

[Ffamran]

I'm kinda surprised to see that a good number of people here are actually annoyed of the yellow rat

Considering Falco's a bird and (most) birds fly... Yeah...

... Actually now that you mention it we surprisingly don't have any characters in Smash that manipulates earth.

But seriously geez, I didn't realize how obnoxious Quick Attack was until now.

Aside from an actual dirt flinging character, I can't think of anyone from Nintendo that can manipulate the earth. Technically, the Villager does with Down Smash and Dtilt, but yeah... Dillion and Knuckles aren't Nintendo and nor is Mega Man... Mega Man had an earth power, right?

 

[Blossom ✿]

I meant on a personal level. Something that goes beyond fighting him in Smash (It's more about the actual character itself)

There's that too, I suppose. Hearing Pikachu make its pika sounds can get ear grating (although the most ear grating character in the game goes to Toon Link imo). I don't hate losing to him though, or any character in this game for that matter.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I'm away from home so I tried playing FG on my 3DS and it's a disaster lol. I can barely MALLC on here, I'm so used to the Wii U version and the Gamecube controller smh

Greninja is annoying when it was in OU.
Protean Protean Protean Life Orb Hydro Pump Low Kick Frog Gunk Shot Smogon

ORAS Greninja is like the Diddy of Pokemon. It has no reliable counters >_>