Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

[Berserker.]

Why does he even have to approach?

Good one

The shots fired in this thread though. Lol

 

[Macchiato]

You're gonna have to explain Dark Pit to me. He's probably my most lost matchup overall.

I know you guys explained Rosalina, but I can't understand how a character that has a lot of similar frame data as Zelda but with overall better attacks and Luma as a counterpart somehow loses to Zelda.

Falcon I think is even. Unlike literally every other fast character, Zelda actually has a decent neutral against him and can just use multi-hit moves to keep him walled out.

Ike with customs actually seems tougher for Zelda. You just throw aerials in her face that she can't punish because she's too slow. It's probably even though at this point.

I also think Ganon is even. With customs I think she actually loses...

Bowser just seems like a loss. Why does he even have to approach?

Dark pit, okay Zelda doesn't need to approach since his arrows can't be controlled and we can just jump. He main game is shieldgrabbing, we can get lots of grabs off and space our jab and dtilt. Gimping him is really easy. Also since he has less kill options then pit, we will probably live longer. I think just those two difference matter in this MU.

IMO we beat Ganon

I think we can punish ike Cuz lag. His kill moves are rather slow also. PHANTOM >>> aether

Zelda doesn't need to approach bowser either.

 

[Soul.]

no. Zelda doesn't beat Kirby. No, she doesn't beat Dong. Dong has Dong Cyclone.
Zelda loses to rushdown characters. *cough* Falcon *cough*

 

[Ffamran]

is Burning Spin Dash even good?

@Sonic Storm, you got this, moi droog.

He's been here for a while now

We should invite him back.

>zelda
>beats falcon

Rosalina beats Captain Falcon 80:20 and she's a better Zelda so that makes sense. Zelda beats the Capt. 70.7:29:3.

Also...

"There's nothing wrong with MK, no need to ban him" -MK player #500,000
Now it's the same story with Diddy.

Nothing says skill then throwing out high priority gigantic hitboxes on frame 4/6 than Fairs Dtilts and Uairs from Diddy while being one of the few to have the best grab data in the game.

And...

For people complaining about customs jank-

 

[Soul.]

@Sonic Storm, you got this, moi droog.


We should invite him back.


Rosalina beats Captain Falcon 80:20 and she's a better Zelda so that makes sense. Zelda beats the Capt. 70.7:29:3.

Also...


And...

And now I have a reason to never use Quick Feet.
****. Pikachu isn't Jolteon lol

 

[Berserker.]

We should invite him back.

This place is an open house party

 

[Aunt Jemima]

IMO or as far as I know



Just from my experience in playing at local tournaments.

Kirby?

wut

 

[Berserker.]

Kirby?

wut

From my experience, so I'm basing it off from that. Just my opinionz. This is no-customs by the way. My region is against customs so I'll never know what jumping inhale is

 

[NairWizard]

The problem with Diddy is that to DI d-throw to avoid the up-air followup you have to DI through Diddy (this can still get you hit by a f-air). But if you DI through Diddy and he chooses to up-throw instead of d-throw then you get up-aired for the kill.

Every time he grabs you, he puts you in a 50:50 death situation. At worst, he gets some damage from f-air. At best, your stock is gone. At 70 or 80% with a Raged Diddy and depending on character weight.

On top of that, bananas let him set up into free grabs, so he creates this situation easily. Doesn't matter if Ness' b-throw kills you 100% of the time vs. Diddy's 50%. Diddy does it 20 damage % earlier, and gets the grab 10x easier due to better mobility + banana.

I don't think that Diddy deserves a ban, but there's no way he loses to anyone in this cast with that kind of risk:reward ratio. Even matchups are unlikely, but possible in the future.

 

[TTTTTsd]

From my experience, so I'm basing it off from that. Just my opinionz. This is no-customs by the way. My region is against customs so I'll never know what jumping inhale is

In a word: Amazing.

Really it's super helpful. A flying command grab that aids recovery, can set up some neat tricks, etc. Really helps Kirby a lot.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

GGS @ RedCap-BlueSpikes Hahahah that was the most fun I've had in a while. Lol at our ledge battles. Also Diddy vs wii fit is even. Amazing Palutena though. Any wii fit Zelda or sheik advice?

Wii Fit Zelda?

 

[Soul.]

ASKING FOR DIDDY TO GET BANNED IS LIKE SMOGON SUSPECT TESTING GIRATINA-O IN OU
OH WAIT

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

Wii Fit Zelda?

Link's face is priceless

Kirby?

wut

No customs kirby gets walled out by nairs and fairs
Shoot non-customs kirby gets walled out by a lot

 

[warionumbah2]

Real talk machitot name a member on this site no name 3 who said WFT goes even with diddy, no wifi warrior or casual. If not...

Spoiler

 

[Ffamran]

Also, these guys have an instant replay for their stream! Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSIfAKtSi7A.

 

[Rickster]

Ok so I guess I'll contribute a bit more since I saw talk of Fox, lol.

Use a lot of low risk moves. I suggest Jab over dtilt due to its disjoint. It can stop a lot of Fox's non-disjointed attacks. Make sure to keep an eye out for any lazer attempts, and punish with a Farore's. This can apply to most projectile users, actually.

You both have good KO power, and those KO moves also happen to be quite unsafe. A blocked Usmash can be punished with a running Elevator, if you're quick. Likewise, a blocked or whiffed anything from Zelda can lead to a quick usmash death.

You'll both be comboing each other quite a bit. Both chars can do a lot to each other, if they can get in. Keeping Fox out is key.

I'd say it's maybe something like
5.5:4.5 . Not bad enough to be 6:4 IMO. Please don't hate me ._.

PS. Always dair Fire Fox. ALWAYS.

 

[Berserker.]

I don't know what customs are man. I only know the Monado boy's customs since I've used them occasionally. The rest? Idk. I've only watched customs but I barely play custom matches. I think the last time I played was.... 2 months ago? or 3 or 4?

I never really cared anyway. I'm not an advocate for customs, so eh.

 

[Macchiato]

Real talk machitot name a member on this site no name 3 who said WFT goes even with diddy, no wifi warrior or casual. If not...

Spoiler

@⑨ball

 

[warionumbah2]

Customs? I thought we called it powerful exploits now? @ Berserker.

@⑨ball

3 i said 3. 3 as in Diddy beats WFT 3/3 times.

 

[「 Derk 」]

Real talk machitot name a member on this site no name 3 who said WFT goes even with diddy, no wifi warrior or casual. If not...

Spoiler

I would be impressed if anyone could name 3 WFT mains honestly.

 

[Macchiato]

Customs? I thought we called it powerful exploits now? @ Berserker.

3 i said 3. 3 as in Diddy beats WFT 3/3 times.

I think there's niala. And shippo

I would be impressed if anyone could name 3 WFT mains honestly.

TKBreezy, john12356, Niala, 9ball

 

[Ffamran]

Did Macchi just double post? Eh, whatever I guess 'cause it was the end of the page and then at on the new page.

Edit: Never mind. Macchi just double posted.

 

[Soul.]

Everyone thinks customs can save Smash 4. No one knows.
Yes, they buff lower tier characters. Yes, they are this game's big thing. Yes, they make the game better as a spectator sport.
But then you have logistics. Complaints (), complaints and more complaints.

 

[warionumbah2]

If they all main wft I will go hermit for 3 months forcing myself not to have any social interactions.

 

[Berserker.]

TKBreezy, john12356, Niala, 9ball

It's john12346 or john#

Customs? I thought we called it powerful exploits now? @ Berserker.

Thanks for the correction homie

About customs, I'm all for balance but I don't want to balance it with powerful exploits.

 

[Macchiato]

If they all main wft I will go hermit for 3 months forcing myself not to have any social interactions.

Ok have fun going hermit

 

[FullMoon]

By the way @ WolfieXVII ❂ who was that person who entered our room in the end? I don't have them on my friend list so I'm assuming it's someone you know.

 

[Ffamran]

If they all main wft I will go hermit for 3 months forcing myself not to have any social interactions.

It's not like most of us aren't hermits.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Yes, they buff lower tier characters.

rip zeldawful

 

[warionumbah2]

Bahahaha im ****ing done. 3 people say wft evens against the best character in the game, but warionubuh2 check this... THEY ALL MAIN WFT

Im not going hermit but my head has never shaken so hard. Ur one of a kind mach,.

 

[Locke 06]

Diddy is dumb, but at least people can press buttons and do stuff. His meta is moving too fast for people to keep up, but (hopefully) other characters will start emerging with developed meta games. MM has a very decent shot of being one of diddy's even MU's because of how well he avoids grabs, but I haven't played against a diddy monster who's developed their game enough.

Edit: by "being one" I mean eventually as Mega's game gets more developed. And I only bring up my own experience because I have yet to see a Mega play a Diddy who's up to date.

In other news. I think I may be crying. This **** is too ****ing gorgeous for me to deal with.

 

[Macchiato]

Ur one of a kind mach,.

:^)

rip zeldawful

Squall helps a lot of her bad MUs. Flare is a direct upgrade and so is strike.

 

[Ffamran]

I'm wondering if there's a character whose metagame is actually degenerating instead of moving forward. It'd be like, "Hey, remember Character X who could do all this wacky, awesome stuff?" *plays the matchup and just sees Up Smash spam*

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

By the way @ WolfieXVII ❂ who was that person who entered our room in the end? I don't have them on my friend list so I'm assuming it's someone you know.

Oh that's @ RedCap-BlueSpikes

I'm wondering if there's a character whose metagame is actually degenerating instead of moving forward. It'd be like, "Hey, remember Character X who could do all this wacky, awesome stuff?" *plays the matchup and just sees Up Smash spam*

*cries

 

[Macchiato]

I'm wondering if there's a character whose metagame is actually degenerating instead of moving forward. It'd be like, "Hey, remember Character X who could do all this wacky, awesome stuff?" *plays the matchup and just sees Up Smash spam*

Little Mac

 

[Unknownkid]

From my experience, so I'm basing it off from that. Just my opinionz. This is no-customs by the way. My region is against customs so I'll never know what jumping inhale is

I wasn't sure to challenge this myself. In a non-custom environment, you are right. Shulk's superior range will wall Kirby out. I will have to trick you in order to Inhale and get your power. Then from there its SKY HIGH BABY and Kirby becomes top tier!

 

[HeroMystic]

I'll put myself on the soap box and say Diddy is extremely strong in this game, and if anyone believes anyone goes even with him in this current state of the meta, they should brush up on their knowledge of Diddy's meta or simply wake up and smell the coffee. And I'll echo this:

This 'not unbeatable' quote has been used for so long that its more stale than MKs shuttle loop.

Even further, just because something is beatable, it does not mean the game would be better off with it rather than without it. Diddy, in his current state, beats every single character in this game. He has a guaranteed U-Throw > U-air kill combo on every character in this game ranging for 60% to 90%, and he has insane damage per hit on all of his fastest aerials, and he has the one of the best neutral states (only beaten by Sheik imo). He can combo break with U-air, space with his ridiculous F-air, and so many combo setups ranging from D-throw to D-tilt to Banana.

Diddy is outright the strongest character in this game and is so far ahead of every other character, I mentally worry for this game a year or so down the line.

I'd also like to add that there are literally no TOP TIER swordsmen in this game, which opens up a lot of counterplay vs. the top. Sure Diddy's range is great but it's not disjointed, etc. I just feel like this is a sting of "I expected more balance" and early meta combining itself.

You're my bro so don't take this the wrong way, but the bolded is saying exactly what people said during Brawl in defense of Metaknight. "It's too early" is right up there, if not higher, than "not unbeatable". For years people have been saying this and by the time Metaknight was banned, it was too late. So many players invested so much in Metaknight that they would rather just play Metaknight, and national tournaments ignored the ban and went on as they pleased.

There's now going to be a bunch of people saying "Hay guys this character goes even with Diddy lemme tell you why!" and then the argument is going to be debunked when Diddy players counterplay it. Wanna know what was theorycrafted who went even with Metaknight during the debate?

(Defeated by ledge camping and D-air camping)
(Defeated by getting wrecked off stage)
(Defeated by nullifying banana play with a solid air game and perfecting momentum cancelling)
(lol)
(Don't get grabbed)

All of that happened in a span of years and it's been shown time and time again that Metaknight defeats all of them. Even when Brawl does show up in tournaments, APEX placed rules to ban MK on specific stages and in general we placed a LGL to stop invincibility camping.

Now guess what? Brawl is dead.

Let me be the first to say "let the metagame develop" is only going to hold me over for a limited amount of time, and I'm sure for a number of Brawl veterans they'll feel the same. I'm personally waiting until Evo is done to really start letting out my opinion, because right now, any discussion of banning Diddy is pre-mature. But it is not premature to say Diddy is a dominance in the metagame and it'll only get stronger.

 

[FullMoon]

Oh that's @ RedCap-BlueSpikes

Oh.

Sorry for leaving then, @ RedCap-BlueSpikes , I was starting to feel kinda burnt out after all the matches I had with Wolfie.

Diddy is such a pain though, I'm surprised I only lost one match.

That match against Ness tho... Yeah =P

 

[NairWizard]

Random aside, the thing that I dislike the most about competing in this game is the importance of reaction time. My reaction time is pretty awful by fighting game standards. Really makes me want to quit when I go up against a top-level player or high-level player with better reaction time. It is fairly demoralizing to know that your strategy could have won, and that you made the right decisions, but you're losing to the other player's genetically superior reflexes, which you can't do anything about. Doesn't apply at most levels of the game because you can do so much better in neutral by just being more skilled than most players, but then at the upper levels, you run into a reaction time wall where you need a lot of extra skill to keep up.

I'm 24, which is peak reaction time, so it's also entirely downhill from here. In a year, I'll be quite a bit worse at this game. I already react a little more slowly than I did when I was 23.

Such are fighting games, though. Such are fighting games. If anything makes me quit playing this game, though, it'll be my reaction time, not Diddy or anything like that. Diddy is manageable if you know how he works (you're disadvantaged but it's an OK disadvantage).

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

Oh.

Sorry for leaving then, @ RedCap-BlueSpikes , I was starting to feel kinda burnt out after all the matches I had with Wolfie.

Diddy is such a pain though, I'm surprised I only lost one match.

That match against Ness tho... Yeah =P

No it's alright. I was just gonna watch but then Wolfie left so I decided to stay and fool around for a bit. That was my first time fighting a good Greninja and also the first time I've fought one using Shifting Shuriken, so I didn't really know what he could do.