Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

[Tilk]

Villager's worst match up is Mega Man iirc. @ Locke 06 could be of help here

Yeah... that's exactly my point. I need to learn to deal with villagers more effectively because I still end up getting my *ss handed to me by them. Probably just need more practice.

Besides that, I usually have no problem taking care of them in FG, along with any other character that comes my way... they usually fall to the lemon spacing allowing me to rack up damage.

So maybe I just.....Suck? I have no idea. I'll consult Locke for help though. Thanks.

Edit: Gotta love them pocketing my F-Smash. smh -.-

 

[evmaxy54]

I decided to go back to using Melee Marth. Melee Sheik feels... way too easy to use. D-throw to f-air is dumb so UM... No. Back to Marth. I need a sword to live.

Try using PAL Sheik

RIP chaingrab, Dthrow follow-ups & Uair

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

alright thought also note that it's rare to find a good zelda. The lag in his moves are enough for us to punish. Let's get @ S.F.L.R_9 opinion on this.

Well umm just YOLO it with kirby until yew get it. Just having the copy ability makes it not as bad as jigglypuff.

Take this with a grain of salt, but keep in mind I main both of these characters and I play your Zelda all the time.

Zelda can only easily gimp Shulk with her Phantom, and in a customs environment Strike and Squall work too. But, you can recovery safely with careful timing, rendering her only option to dair which you can use on any character so I wouldn't say she's amazing at gimping him. Nearly all of Shulk's moves outrange her and getting in is one of Zelda's worst problems so that already puts her at a disadvantage. Shulk doesn't have enough lag for you to punish if you're not just throwing out random smash attacks. MALLC makes him even harder to punish. He can rack up damage a lot better than Zelda with the mobility of Jump + Speed and the pure damage output of Buster. He's even better and safer at getting kills than Zelda since he kills at 90-100% without Smash and 70-80% with a good read and Smash activated. He can kill with Smash ftilt, utilt , Air Slash OOS or dthrow and bthrow which are all quick and powerful, with the throws being slightly less so. No way this is in Zelda's favor. Yes, she can combo him a lot but that didn't save the Snake MU in Brawl. Shulk's range and ability to keep her out makes it a nightmare for Zelda against a good Shulk who properly utilizes MALLC.
: 60:40 or 65:35

 

[Locke 06]

I think there's a progression you go through as a Mega Man where you find yourself getting out spaced by characters like Villager, Samus, and even Dedede (I used to have a lot of trouble with that MU on the 3ds). And then you start getting more comfortable with finding that "lemon range" for each character where it is safe to apply pressure and you can react to whatever they decide to do. Also, learning to recognize utilt opportunities. In most matches, I'd say there are at quite a few utilt opportunities per game and if you hit 30% and whiff less than 20%, you're doing well (especially in a 2-stock meta).

The issue Villager has is dealing with Mega Man if you stay grounded and at mid range. Slingshots are telegraphed because they require a jump to use, default Lloid can be canceled with a metal blade, and cross up DAir approaches can be punished with a quick Usmash OoS. Shielding against Villager is super strong, and the only thing you have to fear is jab shield pressure and a shield stab Axe (which you should be looking out for whenever the tree is up). If Villager is in, you can decide to respect his up close game and just run away to reset (pivot retreating lemons if he pursues) or decide to challenge it with dtilt, grab, usmash, or aerials OR see if you can find a utilt opportunity (ftilt on shield, Axe on shield, falling NAir on shield).

Slingshots are good, but it is reactable at mid-range. Mega can slowly rack up damage more reliably than Villager and kill more reliably than Villager.

Hope that helps. I need to run to work now, but I think we'll cover the Villager MU soon on the Mega Man boards.

HM: No one spaces like Gaston Mega Man. He wins neutral in most matchups and spacing characters, for the most part, have poor advantage states.

 

[Antonykun]

Practicing things against a lv8 Villager

He plants and waters a tree, then drops two bowling balls on it in quick succession and kills it immediately.

...

Are you telling me that isn't a good villager strat?

 

[Macchiato]

anysis wanna play?

 

[Alacion]

Shulk is an uphill battle for Zelda. Probably - 2.

WiFi is honestly fantastic for improvement. It's not 100% comparable to offline but you learn a lot of match up information and other fundamentals such as reading stuff (even though I can't seem to ever punish spotdodges). It's also a great start to becoming familiar with your own character. Definitely don't discount how useful WiFi can be.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

anysis wanna play?

I'll play you.

 

[Macchiato]

I'll play you.

Add me gorl

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Managed to catch the infamous ROLLGLORY in it's natural habitat.

https://gfycat.com/OccasionalDetailedAiredale

It's so beautiful. Graceful.

Edit: How to I insert the video directly into my post? Doesn't seem to work.

Edit 2: Nevermind, it's working.

 

[「 Derk 」]

More rolls than a dough factory. Truly a remarkable capture of high-quality rollglory!

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

Had to post it here because it's simply awesome

omg yes

Based ninty
Official remixes

 

[Soul.]

If you expect hundreds of people going to a tourney when they don't have the resources then lol
Be grateful Wi-Fi exists.

 

[Tilk]

I think there's a progression you go through as a Mega Man where you find yourself getting out spaced by characters like Villager, Samus, and even Dedede (I used to have a lot of trouble with that MU on the 3ds). And then you start getting more comfortable with finding that "lemon range" for each character where it is safe to apply pressure and you can react to whatever they decide to do. Also, learning to recognize utilt opportunities. In most matches, I'd say there are at quite a few utilt opportunities per game and if you hit 30% and whiff less than 20%, you're doing well (especially in a 2-stock meta).

The issue Villager has is dealing with Mega Man if you stay grounded and at mid range. Slingshots are telegraphed because they require a jump to use, default Lloid can be canceled with a metal blade, and cross up DAir approaches can be punished with a quick Usmash OoS. Shielding against Villager is super strong, and the only thing you have to fear is jab shield pressure and a shield stab Axe (which you should be looking out for whenever the tree is up). If Villager is in, you can decide to respect his up close game and just run away to reset (pivot retreating lemons if he pursues) or decide to challenge it with dtilt, grab, usmash, or aerials OR see if you can find a utilt opportunity (ftilt on shield, Axe on shield, falling NAir on shield).

Slingshots are good, but it is reactable at mid-range. Mega can slowly rack up damage more reliably than Villager and kill more reliably than Villager.

Hope that helps. I need to run to work now, but I think we'll cover the Villager MU soon on the Mega Man boards.

HM: No one spaces like Gaston Mega Man. He wins neutral in most matchups and spacing characters, for the most part, have poor advantage states.

Thanks a lot actually.

I've been learning to utilize lemon spacing Much more effectively as of late but it's still something I need to work on especially using it in the air as I still can't get the hang of move forward and back while using it in the air. I always end up performing a F-air or B-air, which is incredibly annoying when I'm trying to space at Medium distance with lemons and I end up doing that allowing speed demons like Diddy and Sonic to close in and punish almost immediatly when they notice the chance.

UTilt is also a really great move I've realized... And it works INCREDIBLY well against characters with counters, especially Shulk and Lucario because the counter is easy to predict and renders them helpless allowing you to get close and finish with UTilt after they finish the counter. Even if the counter works though, they'll still probably miss it due to UTilt having a great vertical reach to get past the counter attack. Only problem is I have trouble executing a lot due to me using my dash attack when I try to stop and press attack too early.

I guess that's also the reason that I do well on FG because whenever battlefield is in effect Villager seems to have an immediate advantage over me due to those platforms making his aerial attacks and jumping a lot harder to telegraph and for me to be heavily susceptible to combos.

And I know I should probably be kicking myself but his pocket always seems to get me. Mainly due to F-Smash being my primary kill move. I try to mix it up, but I feel that I haven't tried USmash OoS. I'll have to try that sometime.

Thanks a lot for the input. ^^'

 

[Shrokatii]

@ Shrokatii

That is why you should main G&W.

I bet that guy called hax lol

Ez 9's is ez lyfe

I actually started maining him because of his windboxes. I don't use judge that much

 

[Kofu]

@ Shrokatii

That is why you should main G&W.

And some people think that Judge being truly random now isn't a good thing, SMH.

 

[Antonykun]

I think there's a progression you go through as a Mega Man where you find yourself getting out spaced by characters like Villager, Samus, and even Dedede (I used to have a lot of trouble with that MU on the 3ds). And then you start getting more comfortable with finding that "lemon range" for each character where it is safe to apply pressure and you can react to whatever they decide to do. Also, learning to recognize utilt opportunities. In most matches, I'd say there are at quite a few utilt opportunities per game and if you hit 30% and whiff less than 20%, you're doing well (especially in a 2-stock meta).

The issue Villager has is dealing with Mega Man if you stay grounded and at mid range. Slingshots are telegraphed because they require a jump to use, default Lloid can be canceled with a metal blade, and cross up DAir approaches can be punished with a quick Usmash OoS. Shielding against Villager is super strong, and the only thing you have to fear is jab shield pressure and a shield stab Axe (which you should be looking out for whenever the tree is up). If Villager is in, you can decide to respect his up close game and just run away to reset (pivot retreating lemons if he pursues) or decide to challenge it with dtilt, grab, usmash, or aerials OR see if you can find a utilt opportunity (ftilt on shield, Axe on shield, falling NAir on shield).

Slingshots are good, but it is reactable at mid-range. Mega can slowly rack up damage more reliably than Villager and kill more reliably than Villager.

Hope that helps. I need to run to work now, but I think we'll cover the Villager MU soon on the Mega Man boards.

HM: No one spaces like Gaston Mega Man. He wins neutral in most matchups and spacing characters, for the most part, have poor advantage states.

Call me when that happens. I would like to talk about Villager's worst or second worst mu

 

[FullMoon]

@ Berserker. Looking at your write up about Shulk, from what you've said it does look like Greninja might actually be a bad MU for Shulk, I mean, as you mentioned he's easy to juggle, combo meat, his recovery is hilariously exploitable by Greninja and Greninja's great advantaged state lets him capitalize on Shulk's bad disadvantaged state really well. Plus Greninja can get silly amounts of damage if you can't get him off you and can kill pretty early especially if Shulk happens to be caught in Smash mode.

Granted, Shulk still outranges Greninja, which makes it a bit hard for us to get in, but Greninja's range isn't bad either and Greninja does have a frame advantage over him. Plus since you said that the 3 MUs that are bad for Shulk is because they especialize in punishing, well, Greninja does too.

I always thought the MU was even myself, but from looking at your write-up it does look like Greninja can exploit all of Shulk's weaknesses pretty well.

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

I don't even play Villager, but he's my only hope when I play megaman
Edit: A page? For me?

 

[MasterTrumpet]

Anyone have tips for a good approach with zelda?

 

[Berserker.]

@ Berserker. Looking at your write up about Shulk, from what you've said it does look like Greninja might actually be a bad MU for Shulk, I mean, as you mentioned he's easy to juggle, combo meat, his recovery is hilariously exploitable by Greninja and Greninja's great advantaged state lets him capitalize on Shulk's bad disadvantaged state really well. Plus Greninja can get silly amounts of damage if you can't get him off you and can kill pretty early especially if Shulk happens to be caught in Smash mode.

Granted, Shulk still outranges Greninja, which makes it a bit hard for us to get in, but Greninja's range isn't bad either and Greninja does have a frame advantage over him. Plus since you said that the 3 MUs that are bad for Shulk is because they especialize in punishing, well, Greninja does too.

I always thought the MU was even myself, but from looking at your write-up it does look like Greninja can exploit all of Shulk's weaknesses pretty well.

I would have thought so but like I said, the arts help him with the said disadvantages. Especially jump art. If Shulk plays a momentum-based playstyle (speed/jump emphasis), the problems with his recovery or being juggled aren't really much to worry about. The combo meat stays though because reasons.

Only reason why it still doesn't help that much with Sheik and Fox though is because their frame data is godlike. Sonic is probably the least difficult among the 3 mentioned.

imo, it feels even with Greninja. He lacks that one aspect that makes Sheik and Fox (and Sonic to a lesser extent) borderline ******** for Shulk.


If you notice something about his bad MU's (sans Robin), they all have amazing frame data ;-;

 

[LRodC]

Anyone have tips for a good approach with zelda?

In times that you absolutely have to approach, dash attack, dash grab, and neutral air are probably your best bets. You generally shouldn't be approaching too much with her since she's more based on baiting and punishing, but those are the best ways I've been doing it. If there are other better ways, I'd like to hear them.

 

[FullMoon]

I would have thought so but like I said, the arts help him with the said disadvantages. Especially jump art. If Shulk plays a momentum-based playstyle (speed/jump emphasis), the problems with his recovery or being juggled aren't really much to worry about. The combo meat stays though because reasons.

Only reason why it still doesn't help that much with Sheik and Fox though is because their frame data is godlike. Sonic is probably the least difficult among the 3 mentioned.

imo, it feels even with Greninja. He lacks that one aspect that makes Sheik and Fox (and Sonic to a lesser extent) borderline ******** for Shulk.

So a good frame data is what prevents Greninja from being a bad MU for Shulk, I can see that.

Also why do Greninja and Shulk struggle with the exact same characters? Trying to learn Shulk now feels kinda pointless considering I pretty much have no reason to switch to him, ever.

He is pretty fun to play though, that range is sooooooo good.

 

[MasterTrumpet]

In times that you absolutely have to approach, dash attack, dash grab, and neutral air are probably your best bets. You generally shouldn't be approaching too much with her since she's more based on baiting and punishing, but those are the best ways I've been doing it. If there are other better ways, I'd like to hear them.

Ok thanks :D

 

[SBphiloz4]

Anyone have tips for a good approach with zelda?

You can't. :^(

 

[Berserker.]

Also why do Greninja and Shulk struggle with the exact same characters? Trying to learn Shulk now feels kinda pointless considering I pretty much have no reason to switch to him, ever.

He is pretty fun to play though, that range is sooooooo good.

My same thoughts when I picked up Rosalina

Well, she's actually sort of alright against Robin but the rest? Lol.

 

[Tilk]

My same thoughts when I picked up Rosalina

Well, she's actually sort of alright against Robin but the rest? Lol.

Last time I met a RosaLuma on FG was a while ago, but it's quite funny since I was using Robin at the time.

I actually had some difficulty closing in on her due to Robin's slow mobility and emphasis on mid range projectile play, even though the RosaLuma I played didn't seem to know how to be technical.

But that's just me. .3.

 

[Berserker.]

Rosalina probably has a slight advantage against Robin. Thing is, I can still use Shulk against Robin despite the match up because it doesn't favor Robin by THAT much. I'm damn sure that she can't handle Sheik and Diddy that well. She's probably not all that great against Sonic and Fox either.

 

[LRodC]

In my experience it seems like a lot of crappy/new players pick up fast, easy to use characters like Mac, Sheik, Sonic or ZSS and proposed top tiers like Rosalina and Diddy but end up being pretty damn terrible or just mediocre with them. It's actually the characters that are pretty underplayed like Palutena and Wii Fit Trainer that I have more trouble with if they're good since the user is obviously dedicated to mastering the character and there's a lack of familiarity. Not saying every time they use them they're terrible, but those are just my experiences.

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

Anyone want to play?

 

[Brinzy]

I feel like you're not really giving Robin enough credit for his air game. If he has the Levin Sword, all of his aerials are incredibly scary. Imagine slightly weaker Zelda lightning kicks that don't have to be sweetspotted. Of course this goes away for a little while if the levin sword is gone, but it's definitely something to watch out for.

Her damage with her aerials is a definite plus, and is one of the things I meant by having a few good things going for her. The problem is that when you're a really slow character, it's a lot easier to be predicted and baited. I don't think the strong aerials make up for the downsides sadly.

But you're right, I did completely neglect her air game. Good catch.

 

[Shrokatii]

Anyone want to play?

I might be able to on 3ds, I'm not sure.

I'll let you know

 

[Tilk]

In my experience it seems like a lot of crappy/new players pick up fast, easy to use characters like Mac, Sheik, Sonic or ZSS and proposed top tiers like Rosalina and Diddy but end up being pretty damn terrible or just mediocre with them. It's actually the characters that are pretty underplayed like Palutena and Wii Fit Trainer that I have more trouble with if they're good since the user is obviously dedicated to mastering the character and there's a lack of familiarity. Not saying the Rosalina you fought was terrible, but those are just my experiences.

I've been playing Smash for quite a while and speaking as maimed Sonic a lot and now keep him as my secondary, I have to say it's easy to tell a good Sonic from a bad one, same with Sheik, but not exactly with ZSS, who's pretty pick up and dominate if you ask me.

Underplayed characters like that do take a lot of work I'll admit, and the reward is usually very good, but It's still incredibly annoying when people who think they're the best thing ever play characters who have obvious and easy winning strategies over and over instead of using them in a more varied fashion.

Case in point: Pac-Man, great character who's very versatile, but can get shut down by people using strategies that are hard to work around.

Pretty sad Tbh,

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

I might be able to on 3ds, I'm not sure.

I'll let you know

I have my 3DS now buuut I'm playing FullMoon right now lmao
Might I add
Bruuuuuuuuuh

 

[Ffamran]

IMO or as far as I know



Just from my experience in playing at local tournaments.

You forgot about Falco. The difference between Fox and Falco is that Falco can't get in fast enough to punish and in disadvantage, Falco starts to cry when his pitiful Nair's range does nothing to Shulk slow as sin Nair and Fair.

 

[Berserker.]

You forgot about Falco. The difference between Fox and Falco is that Falco can't get in fast enough to punish and in disadvantage, Falco starts to cry when his pitiful Nair's range does nothing to Shulk slow as sin Nair and Fair.

You forgot that I don't know how the Falco match up works man. No one uses Falco in my area

Shaya probably knows this match up

 

[LRodC]

I've been playing Smash for quite a while and speaking as maimed Sonic a lot and now keep him as my secondary, I have to say it's easy to tell a good Sonic from a bad one, same with Sheik, but not exactly with ZSS, who's pretty pick up and dominate if you ask me.

Underplayed characters like that do take a lot of work I'll admit, and the reward is usually very good, but It's still incredibly annoying when people who think they're the best thing ever play characters who have obvious and easy winning strategies over and over instead of using them in a more varied fashion.

Case in point: Pac-Man, great character who's very versatile, but can get shut down by people using strategies that are hard to work around.

Pretty sad Tbh,

I agree that ZSS is pretty damn easy to use (what "top tier" isn't to be honest?), but I don't think she's as dominating as some people make her out to be. I find Sheik to be a much bigger problem actually and I think she's the best character and not Diddy. I'm speaking purely in terms of customs though where she can have a better grenade/needles and an earlier ground kill move in Pisces.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Melee Fox was a good example of a "balanced" top tier. He goes even against Marth, Falco, and Samus iirc. He wasn't "totally" unbeatable. Diddy has no bad match ups or even match ups. That's an issue. It's even more baffling that he's still winning at customs-on tournaments.

I feel the need to interject that while this is theoretically true, he basically crushes absolutely everyone else and makes the meta game almost a sort of funnel IN CERTAIN SCENARIOS (nobody plays Fox to TAS perfection and I doubt that will ever happen so he'll never truly shut down the entirity of Top) but he comes closer and closer slowly. Once Powershielding gets more consistent Falco is going to struggle vs. Fox a lot more IMO.

You'd likely be better off citing Falco who has even MUs with most everyone in Top 6-8 except for Falcon I think.

I think Diddy beating everyone "slightly to moderately" means that if people want to use their character they should learn the MU and perfect it. IDK who Diddy beats 7-3 (I can't think of any but there's probably like, 5-10 MAYBS, leaning on a low number though) and 6-4 is far from unmanageable, period. Going to be totally honest, he's stupid but he's not unbeatable by a large chunk of the cast.

I'd also like to add that there are literally no TOP TIER swordsmen in this game, which opens up a lot of counterplay vs. the top. Sure Diddy's range is great but it's not disjointed, etc. I just feel like this is a sting of "I expected more balance" and early meta combining itself.

 

[Soul.]

Melee Fox is the best in his game but is set back with an extremely high learning curve. That's why he doesn't win most tourneys nowadays.
Fox forces you to use Sticky Web in your chair and never stop playing Melee.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I agree that ZSS is pretty damn easy to use (what "top tier" isn't to be honest?), .

Rosalina is one of the most technical characters, she's very hard to use efficiently, and she's top tier