Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

[MasterTrumpet]

I just extremely dislike watching the many, many diddy kong battles in tournaments... it feels like everyone uses him.

 

[Tilk]

I agree that ZSS is pretty damn easy to use (what "top tier" isn't to be honest?), but I don't think she's as dominating as some people make her out to be. I find Sheik to be a much bigger problem actually and I think she's the best character and not Diddy. I'm speaking purely in terms of customs though where she can have a better grenade/needles and an earlier ground kill move in Pisces.

I still think it takes a good Sheik player to get the best result out of her... But that best result is that she turns into a monster, and yes, arguably the best character in the game.

She still takes practice and isn't exactly the "pick this character to win" character.

It's still fun to mess with my friends with ZSS who think she's beyond broken and use the excuse that "I suck" whenever I kick their faces in with my rocket propelled boot when I use her.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Like the fact that Diddy is really common is a partial blessing in disguise as someone that uses Doc. Doc loses to more characters that are lower/less used than Diddy moreso than he loses to Diddy. I don't think Diddy has that large of an advantage vs. him compared to the Sheik MU for Doc. Esp. not with customs on which greatly boosts Doc's neutral and gives him an option to catch literally any tech roll on a platform/virtually all ledge options, said option also being a kill move that is out for 19 frames. Having the best OoS option is handy too, and a 2 frame jab that actually resets to neutral proper when cancelled (not negative on hit) is also a very large plus.

Realistically if someone like Sheik was used as much as Diddy, Doc would be even less successful.

Also @ warionumbah2 called me in about the Doc vs. MK MU and I tinkered with Mr. Sir Knight a bit, so I feel justified in saying a few things about this that I think are about right.

Doc loses, 6-4ish in MK's favor, potentially improved a bit to 45-55 if customs are on but not sure.

W/o customs, Doc's neutral isn't too great. Doc does get great rewards on hit vs. MK although MK has a plethora of handy escape options so he's forced to do short strings and respect a lot of MK's options (much like his MU with Ganondorf where he has to fear Wizkick and anything breaking his combos and his neck). Doc's good shield game is an asset in this MU that prevents it from being worse, with a really nice Frame 3 Kill move that can clutch things out.

MK outranges Doc mostly so challenging him directly is foolish, you generally want to bait a commitment from MK, and likewise MK wants to force Doc to commit to something either. What REALLY sways the MU to uneven is the reward each one gets from said punish. If you're hit with a MK Dash Attack you're going to take a lot of damage unless he drops, in which case Doc's Dair is actually handy for making sure he doesn't carelessly come up from below.

With customs it gets a bit better for Doc, he has a good B-reversible interrupt that can stop anything foolish, and he can get some awesome punishes with Down-B 2 if he plays it right (cover all of those ledge options and ATTEMPT to force a plat tech, although plat tech is VERY unlikely as MK has 5 jumps), Gust Cape can push him away if you think he's going to do something that is vulnerable to windboxes. Really the MU just gets slightly better because Doc's neutral is patched up a little and he gains a stronger punish option.

Both are very winnable though. May want to switch anyways but IMO it's all about respecting opponent's option and smart bait.

 

[SBphiloz4]

IMO some MUs

Wins 7-3 or higher
(non-custom)idk if there are more, probably there are.

Loses


And loses to a lot of characters for being a "top tier".

 

[Soul.]

IMO some MUs

Wins 7-3 or higher
(non-custom)idk if there are more, probably there are.

Loses


And loses to a lot of characters for being a "top tier".

I thought the general consensus was that Diddy vs. Sheik was even.
Diddy would lose if Melee Sheik came back.

 

[warionumbah2]

This 'not unbeatable' quote has been used for so long that its more stale than MKs shuttle loop. Real talk everything is beatable, Brawl MK wasn't unbeatable but like Diddy he clearly has an advantage against the whole cast.

Diddy's meta is growing constantly while others are either slow,not moving or straight up dead because the character sucks(yes bad characters exist in this game). When i see 'goes even with Diddy' at this point of the meta i laugh, Pikachu ain't gon do ****, Rosalina ain't gon do ****, Sheik can struggle has hard she wants maybe he'll finally grab Diddy's leg and say 'we are equals'.

The only people that defend Diddy tend to be Diddy mains, i'm gonna be honest Diddy whoops MKs ass if they're at an equal skill level and it'll only get worse since Diddy is leaving the whole cast behind. I'm not bothered if he's banned or not tbh there's no(as of now) Diddys in my scene so im blessed lol. Worse i got in the top tiers is Sonic who's probably the only character next to Diddy that 60:40's MK.

 

[Shrokatii]

I have my 3DS now buuut I'm playing FullMoon right now lmao
Might I add
Bruuuuuuuuuh

Okay well I can play now if you want to later. Just ask

 

[Macchiato]

GGS @ RedCap-BlueSpikes Hahahah that was the most fun I've had in a while. Lol at our ledge battles. Also Diddy vs wii fit is even. Amazing Palutena though. Any wii fit Zelda or sheik advice?

 

[Berserker.]

@Aeralfos what do you think about Sheik vs Diddy?

The general consensus now is that no one is even against Diddy

 

[Soul.]

is Burning Spin Dash even good?

Diddy's meta is growing constantly while others are either slow,not moving or straight up dead because the character sucks(yes bad characters exist in this game). When i see 'goes even with Diddy' at this point of the meta i laugh, Pikachu ain't gon do ****, Rosalina ain't gon do ****, Sheik can struggle has hard she wants maybe he'll finally grab Diddy's leg and say 'we are equals'.

Diddy is EZ mode in this game. ****ing fact. Even scrubs can win by missing a Hoo Hah.

 

[Macchiato]

@Aeralfos what do you think about Sheik vs Diddy?

The general consensus now is that no one is even against Diddy

Imo sheik, wii fit, mega man are even with him.

 

[SBphiloz4]

I thought the general consensus was that Diddy vs. Sheik was even.
Diddy would lose if Melee Sheik came back.

Oh, by lose, I mean it's like 45:55 at the VERY WORST. It's probably very close to even, but I think Sheik does have the upperhand in various areas.

But lmao poor (More MUs IMO)

3.5 : 6.5

3 : 7

2.5 : 7.5


Some MUs like and are pretty gross but IMO there are 4:6 or a little bit worse than that.

 

[Berserker.]

Aye. I found the quote:

No matter your stance on the Diddy ban, if you think that Diddy has any even MUs or MUs that he loses, you are in denial. The Diddy meta is exploding; up-throw up-air, pivot grabs, side-b into crawl-back d-tilt (both ZeRo and MVD were using this a lot)... Diddy is leaps and bounds ahead right now.

He is 55:45 or better vs. every character in the game.

Pikachu, Sheik, Pacman, Megaman, Luigi, Villager... they are all -1 or worse vs. Diddy, at this moment in time.
Pikachu may have gimps but he can't DI out of up-throw.
Pacman may have hydrant but he doesn't have the KO power out of a throw or the mobility to keep up. Diddy doesn't care about being forced to fullhop when he has a frame-3 aerial escape option.
Luigi may have great grab reward but he still has horrible aerial mobility and gets walled out by f-air.
and so on down the line

Don't be a meta denier. This is the reality right now. Even I (who used to strongly believe that Pikachu and Sheik beat Diddy) have accepted that. Diddy is a lot more than just dashgrab + f-air, and he is showing it.

 

[Macchiato]

Oh, by lose, I mean it's like 45:55 at the VERY WORST. It's probably very close to even, but I think Sheik does have the upperhand in various areas.

But lmao poor (More MUs IMO)

3.5 : 6.5

3 : 7

2.5 : 7.5


Some MUs like and are pretty gross but IMO there are 4:6 or a little bit worse than that.

Your pessimism amazes me. Every one yew listed for 3.5-6.5 is like 4-6 or better. Yoshis not hard at all... Or fox. In this game no match ups are worse than 7-3. ZSS is 7-3 and diddy and sonic are 65-35. Your too pessimistic

 

[warionumbah2]

Trust meeeee, when Evo goes on youtube every casual will be doing up throw to uair and roll into dtit into grab.

I know for a fact Diddy as he is now will win evo, unless Samurai brings a new baby Jesus in here by buffing some character into oblivion or simply nerf him.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

@ Macchiato Why do you think WFT is supposedly even with Diddy... by that logic Zelda might as well be even too

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

GGS @ RedCap-BlueSpikes Hahahah that was the most fun I've had in a while. Lol at our ledge battles. Also Diddy vs wii fit is even. Amazing Palutena though. Any wii fit Zelda or sheik advice?

GGs, and thanks! I had a lot of fun too. I very rarely fight Zeldas that know what they're doing so I got gimmick'd a lot at the start, haha. The amount of times I got hit by random FWs... talk about embarrassing.

I'm only okay-ish with The Monkey . I just kinda do things with him and it works because lolDiddy. No doubt a more seasoned Diddy would be able to change your mind on that matchup being even.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that you're also the only good WFT I've ever fought. I have negative experience in that matchup lol

 

[Macchiato]

Trust meeeee, when Evo goes on youtube every casual will be doing up throw to uair and roll into dtit into grab.

I know for a fact Diddy as he is now will win evo, unless Samurai brings a new baby Jesus in here by buffing some character into oblivion or simply nerf him.

Sakurai... HELPING... COMPETITIVE SCENE?!!!!

Yeah not happening

 

[Soul.]

Aye. I found the quote:

lol if that is the case then:
Goodbye, Smash 4. Hello

 

[Berserker.]

Trust meeeee, when Evo goes on youtube every casual will be doing up throw to uair and roll into dtit into grab.

I know for a fact Diddy as he is now will win evo, unless Samurai brings a new baby Jesus in here by buffing some character into oblivion or simply nerf him.

You know what's funny? Even if you DI d-throw to any direction, you'll still get hit by an aerial.

 

[Shrokatii]

Diddy only, no items, fd, for new meta?

 

[Soul.]

Diddy only, no items, fd, for new meta?

No, not FD. More like ****ing Smashville

 

[Macchiato]

@ Macchiato Why do you think WFT is supposedly even with Diddy... by that logic Zelda might as well be even too

Zelda vs diddy is probably 65-35. Wii fit can keep him away at ease since he has a much better projectile game. Gimping is his best area too. In neutral wii fit doesn't need to approach and can poke at him. That's what he does best, poke or get open nair cancer combos which rack up damage fast. He can also kill easily and all he really needs a to get diddy offstage to probably end a stock. He's also hard to gimp himself. Also his low crouch can help him avoid many of diddys attacks. He's also mid weight which is good. I still think wii fit is even with diddy.

 

[SBphiloz4]

Your pessimism amazes me. Every one yew listed for 3.5-6.5 is like 4-6 or better. Yoshis not hard at all... Or fox. In this game no match ups are worse than 7-3. ZSS is 7-3 and diddy and sonic are 65-35. Your too pessimistic

*Penissism :^)

Fox is ******** in the fact that speed kills in this game. You actually can do nothing about him shooting lasers if he spaces himself well. Fair completely wrecks her ability to get away from aerial pressure, and since a lot of stages have low ceilings, he can abuse Uair and Usmash for easy kills. But at least we can edgeguard him well.

Yoshi is stupid because you honestly CANNOT approach him. It's like a brick wall of... green dinosaur. The only advantage you have is that his grab game is horrid, so you can get away with shielding more. But that's about it. Zero approach options + dat Usmash too = not a pretty ride.

DOES beat and if that makes you feel better though. :^)

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Zelda vs diddy is probably 65-35. Wii fit can keep him away at ease since he has a much better projectile game. Gimping is his best area too. In neutral wii fit doesn't need to approach and can poke at him. That's what he does best, poke or get open nair cancer combos which rack up damage fast. He can also kill easily and all he really needs a to get diddy offstage to probably end a stock. He's also hard to gimp himself. Also his low crouch can help him avoid many of diddys attacks. He's also mid weight which is good. I still think wii fit is even with diddy.

What do you do when Diddy just runs and jumps over Sun Salutation and Header and pressures him/her very hard? Crouching won't be very effective - dtilt is one of Diddy's best moves and it hits very low. The only thing I see going for WFT is the amazing
edgeguarding game if they manage to get Diddy off stage in the first place

 

[Ffamran]

You forgot that I don't know how the Falco match up works man. No one uses Falco in my area

Shaya probably knows this match up

Should we bring Shaya back to this madhouse café?

Optional: More Falco rage and ranting.

Spoiler

Falco works if he can get in, but that's the issue, especially against people who can outrange him or outspeed him. So, Shulk buffers a Nair or uses Nair and Falco goes in, unless Falco can air dodge in the air on reaction, dodge, shield, or roll on the ground, Falco is screwed since Falco can't drift away in the air as fast as Fox without jumping and on the ground, he's not Fox who could foxtrot out and in to punish. Add in the Monado Arts and Falco has a speeding two-handed sword with a laser blade extension rushing into him. At least Ike remains constant throughout the match and Ragnell is a bit shorter, but Shulk being able to make Falco's hits look like a pansy, make Falco's jumps look like an amateur NBA player, and run circles around him puts Falco in this situation of, "Oh, ****."

At neutral, Shulk will probably have the upper hand despite Falco outspeeding Shulk frame data-wise. At disadvantage, it's Falco who's horribly screwed. At advantage, it's probably Falco if he can constantly put on pressure not to mention that Falco kills well near the edges of the stage. Then again, Shulk can kill early too and he can constantly juggle Falco because of Falco's status as fast faller with bad air speed.

Even with input lag, it sucks to fight Shulk as Falco. Without it, from what little videos of these two there are, Falco needs to stick to Shulk like a lost puppy to stop Shulk from doing anything besides Jab, grab, run, dodge, etc. Then the question is how Falco gets in. He can't force approaches unless he's using Burst Blaster, but that's like shooting cotton at a raging bull charging his way to Falco. Default Blaster is already slow which lets Shulk punish Falco easily with Speed or Jump if Falco's dumb enough to fire Blaster on stage. Fast Fire Bird sliding is tricky and Shulk's got disjoints so... yeah, expect a Shulk to skewer Falco launching towards Shulk's Monado - Shulk could just Side Smash and Falco would regret every moment of his life. Egh, Falco might end up as two pieces of pheasant meat. Reflector Void would make it safer for Falco to kill near the ceiling, but that's one move out of everything Falco has and missing it could probably let Shulk Air Slash him in return.

The weird thing is that Falco might end up like Brawl Peach. Was it Brawl Peach or Melee Peach who had weird matchups that were favorable to high and top tiers, but bad with other characters? For one, Falco feels like he does well against Fox, Captain Falcon, Sonic, and Diddy with the last two needing more confirmation 'cause the discussions haven't started yet. Well doesn't mean he has favorable MUs, but more like he doesn't get bodied to hell against them and goes even or slightly disadvantaged to them. Then he gets screwed over by people like Palutena, Rosalina, Shulk, Jigglypuff, Luigi, and ZSS. Another problem: nobody uses Falco enough and nobody fights Falco enough. Keitaro doing well as Falco against Diddy could just be Keitaro knowing how Diddy worked and the Diddy having no idea how to fight Falco which as of now could mean Diddy wrecks Falco harder than Brawl Ice Climbers wrecked Ganondorf - you pick Falco against Diddy and the game just automatically fails you and tells you to go home and reflect on your life.

Diddy's metagame is light years ahead of everyone with new things being discovered daily if not weekly. Falco's metagame? It's like lagging behind Mii Swordfighter of all people. It took freaking 9 months to figure out that Fast Fire Bird is awesome and it wouldn't be surprising if that it was discovered earlier, it was patched out - like the move was removed entirely and Falco gets a Thunder Burst Fire Bird custom instead that is not only weaker, but people fall out taking 0%.

Peach has a dedicated, dedicated player, Dark.Pch, discovering things with her and it's insane. Diddy? Diddy has at least 50% of the SSB4 top player community. Toon Link has dedicated players figuring out stuff. Falco's got people literally winging it and discovering things that end up already being discovered or not that useful. We just had a dude talk about how great D-throw to Dash Attack or Up Smash was. Yeah.

I'm going to mess around and see how well Falco's pseudo-gatling combo works...

 

[Berserker.]

Should we bring Shaya back to this madhouse café?

He's been here for a while now

 

[Macchiato]

*Penissism :^)

Fox is ******** in the fact that speed kills in this game. You actually can do nothing about him shooting lasers if he spaces himself well. Fair completely wrecks her ability to get away from aerial pressure, and since a lot of stages have low ceilings, he can abuse Uair and Usmash for easy kills. But at least we can edgeguard him well.

Yoshi is stupid because you honestly CANNOT approach him. It's like a brick wall of... green dinosaur. The only advantage you have is that his grab game is horrid, so you can get away with shielding more. But that's about it. Zero approach options + dat Usmash too = not a pretty ride.

DOES beat and if that makes you feel better though. :^)

Use farores wind at his lasers man. His fair imo isn't that good either, heck palutenas aerials are better than his. Uair isn't that good imo. His Usmash is great but yew need a good ready or a REALLY laggy punish.

Actually yoshis tend to jump when they throw eggs so Farores wind and catch his landing. Farores wind, the answer to everything. Our Usmash is better anyways.

Imo Zelda beats

 

[Berserker.]

Imo Zelda beats

I'm just gonna wait for @ Brinzy to make my new sig for me

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

Totally worth it @ FullMoon
Last one XD

 

[Soul.]

Use farores wind at his lasers man. His fair imo isn't that good either, heck palutenas aerials are better than his. Uair isn't that good imo. His Usmash is great but yew need a good ready or a REALLY laggy punish.

Actually yoshis tend to jump when they throw eggs so Farores wind and catch his landing. Farores wind, the answer to everything. Our Usmash is better anyways.

Imo Zelda beats

>zelda
>beats falcon

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

****
Fell victim to my own stage lmao
Ggs
Any tips for me?

 

[Macchiato]

What do you do when Diddy just runs and jumps over Sun Salutation and Header and pressures him/her very hard? Crouching won't be very effective - dtilt is one of Diddy's best moves and it hits very low. The only thing I see going for WFT is the amazing
edgeguarding game if they manage to get Diddy off stage in the first place

RTAC utilt
Or
Run to edge and header
Or
Shield grab

 

[warionumbah2]

not happening

Know what else isn't happening?

WFT going even with Diddy, chick chick POW! BANG BANG GRATATATATATATATAAAH!!

 

[Brinzy]

Imo Zelda beats

You're gonna have to explain Dark Pit to me. He's probably my most lost matchup overall.

I know you guys explained Rosalina, but I can't understand how a character that has a lot of similar frame data as Zelda but with overall better attacks and Luma as a counterpart somehow loses to Zelda.

Falcon I think is even. Unlike literally every other fast character, Zelda actually has a decent neutral against him and can just use multi-hit moves to keep him walled out.

Ike with customs actually seems tougher for Zelda. You just throw aerials in her face that she can't punish because she's too slow. It's probably even though at this point.

I also think Ganon is even. With customs I think she actually loses...

Bowser just seems like a loss. Why does he even have to approach?

 

[Rickster]

Back on Shulk's recovery and gimping- I didn't see any mention of Zelda's Nair. Fast fall it and it can completely wreck Shulk. This works quite well on a lot of other characters as well.

Also with the MU talk, I don't think any MU is worse than 7:3 in this game. And that's only for truly horrible things like ZSS v Zelda.

Gonna back out of the competitive discussion now since I'm not that great at these discussions.

 

[Macchiato]

Know what else isn't happening?

WFT going even with Diddy, chick chick POW! BANG BANG GRATATATATATATATAAAH!!

Know what else isn't happening?
MK going high tier, chick hick POW! BANG BANG

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

>zelda
>beats falcon

Beauty beats brawn, does it not? :^)

RTAC utilt
Or
Run to edge and header
Or
Shield grab

So if I'm understanding correctly, WFT's options are very limited once Diddy gets in

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

So many shots fired

Use farores wind at his lasers man. His fair imo isn't that good either, heck palutenas aerials are better than his. Uair isn't that good imo. His Usmash is great but yew need a good ready or a REALLY laggy punish.

Actually yoshis tend to jump when they throw eggs so Farores wind and catch his landing. Farores wind, the answer to everything. Our Usmash is better anyways.

Imo Zelda beats

Bruh

 

[FullMoon]

****
Fell victim to my own stage lmao
Ggs
Any tips for me?

Good games. Dense Charge Shot is such a fun little thing.