Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

[Soul.]

Vinnie used to play 99 stock matches against a level 9 Meta Knight CPU as Ice Climbers. He would suicide if he dropped a grab and would play to beat it with 90 or more stocks remaining. It's hard to find any instance of a Brawl player not using Meta Knight with comparable results to Vinnie.
Mew2King used to spend every moment between tournament matches beating up a level 1 or 3 CPU snake. He would refuse to play friendlies with people during this time. You'd wake up in the middle of the night to see him doing cpu-destructions and then just roll over, expecting something "lame" to be destroyed by when he next woke up.
Armada with level 1 fox on battlefield in Melee is something I'm sure he still does.

Wifi is barely real stuff. Playing wifi under the same paradigm as someone else can have real positive results (i.e. top players practicing on wifi against each other), because they know what's "real" and what isn't. Do you know what's real when you're playing wifi?
ZeRo wouldn't always be playing wifi either, he was mentored by M2K in every way and follows very similar techniques to him.

Oh so CPUs can be used to practice.
The more you know. Everyone hates Wi-Fi
I understand get what you're saying tho

 

[Mericus]

CPUs are good for practicing your execution on combos ( making sure you get that 100% success rate ),
but not so much spacing / playstyle. You also develop VERY bad habits you never want to use vs a living opponent.
Charging smash attacks in this game vs a CPU works because they are braindead, but it gets you killed vs a player.

Humans > CPU in every fighting game ever.
Two players of equal skill level can improve quickly if they have knowledge of Frames / Hitboxes.
Learning to play off your opponents habits / find counters to strategies ( that CPUs never have ) etc. will get you places.

That being said, there's nothing wrong with making a "dummy" opponent before playing to make sure your reflexes on combos are up, just don't fall into a playstyle.

 

[Soul.]

But you're still playing humans on Wi-Fi so wtf. That's what I meant by real stuff.
Not everyone has the time to go to a tourney, so it's better than nothing.

 

[Trieste SP]

Guys, I'm back from the tourney. Got 9th out of 30 people. I guess it's not bad.

Everyone there was an unknown. SD'd a couple times.

Felt like... I need to incorporate some customs for my Zelda.

 

[Brinzy]

I can understand the opinion of Robin being trash though. It's just the results that disagree or say otherwise, but when you think about it, the only true Robin main at the moment is Treluh (He's focusing on Robin). The other good Robin players have a top tier back up which sort of says a lot for Robin.

He might not be as good as I initially thought.

Edit: And those other Robin mains probably don't main Robin at this point

I really wanted to play Robin to begin with, because the Fire Emblem series is my favorite series ever. However, I think that Robin's got a few crippling flaws; unlike Marth (who is also seen as weak currently - but I disagree here), I feel that Robin's flaws are going to become heavier as the meta develops. All of these are just my opinion and open for debate, as always.

- tilts are largely underwhelming. Low damage and honestly not even that safe for the most part. Dtilt is "good" but doesn't really accomplish much for Robin in the end. The others are pretty subpar. They're tilts you'd more likely find on a character like Mario, but Robin's best strings don't even lie in his tilts. The jab combo is decent but Wind is easily DI'd out of and Fire eats away at one of her best attacks. I just feel Robin's ground game is really... uninspired?

- has an absurdly bad neutral game. Seriously, wait for the Arcfire and punish, or make Robin run out of Arcfire and abuse the character. Robin being dreadfully slow does not help this situation. I think Robin may actually be slower than Zelda, and that's saying something. Robin is easy to approach because all the strong characters in this game are either extremely fast (Diddy, Sheik, ZSS, Falcon, Sonic, Yoshi) or generally don't care about laggy projectiles (Rosalina, Ness, Mario). This is not to say Arcfire and the thunder spells are remotely bad, but she has clear deadzones even when she has these spells available that are simply difficult to work around.

I think in a customs environment, you need to run Speed Thunder to alleviate this issue. She can almost never force her opponent into bad situations without smart Arcfire usage, which leads to...

- the item usages. Okay, I get the flavor behind it since FE is my thing. I get that dropping and throwing the used items makes for interesting gameplay. I get that these things are probably not completely destroying this character. However, this does not change the fact that using up your Levin Sword means you basically have no kill power and reduced effectiveness for 8 seconds. Robin's also very noticeably weaker when her fire or thunder tomes are consumed. This is a pretty obvious thing, but I need to stress that no other character gets weaker the more you attack with them.

- the recovery. I actually believe that Robin has like... the fourth worst recovery in the game. Distance isn't horrible, but she's extremely vulnerable and predictable with this move. I actually cringe when I am knocked horizontally off stage on Robin, because it means I need to predict my opponent running out to abuse me or take a risk and recover low. In a world where most everyone has a strong recovery (even if they're predictable), I think this significantly hurts her.

I may have glossed over some details, but that's basically how I feel about it. I still think Robin is able to win a decently-sized tournament, because she does have some good things going for her if the player can manage to avoid being baited too often. I just think that Robin is going to be one of those characters that falls out of favor over time when people realize that being slow and having limited and predictable projectiles is a cardinal sin in this game.

 

[LRodC]

I really wanted to play Robin to begin with, because the Fire Emblem series is my favorite series ever. However, I think that Robin's got a few crippling flaws; unlike Marth (who is also seen as weak currently - but I disagree here), I feel that Robin's flaws are going to become heavier as the meta develops. All of these are just my opinion and open for debate, as always.

- tilts are largely underwhelming. Low damage and honestly not even that safe for the most part. Dtilt is "good" but doesn't really accomplish much for Robin in the end. The others are pretty subpar. They're tilts you'd more likely find on a character like Mario, but Robin's best strings don't even lie in his tilts. The jab combo is decent but Wind is easily DI'd out of and Fire eats away at one of her best attacks. I just feel Robin's ground game is really... uninspired?

- has an absurdly bad neutral game. Seriously, wait for the Arcfire and punish, or make Robin run out of Arcfire and abuse the character. Robin being dreadfully slow does not help this situation. I think Robin may actually be slower than Zelda, and that's saying something. Robin is easy to approach because all the strong characters in this game are either extremely fast (Diddy, Sheik, ZSS, Falcon, Sonic, Yoshi) or generally don't care about laggy projectiles (Rosalina, Ness, Mario). This is not to say Arcfire and the thunder spells are remotely bad, but she has clear deadzones even when she has these spells available that are simply difficult to work around.

I think in a customs environment, you need to run Speed Thunder to alleviate this issue. She can almost never force her opponent into bad situations without smart Arcfire usage, which leads to...

- the item usages. Okay, I get the flavor behind it since FE is my thing. I get that dropping and throwing the used items makes for interesting gameplay. I get that these things are probably not completely destroying this character. However, this does not change the fact that using up your Levin Sword means you basically have no kill power and reduced effectiveness for 8 seconds. Robin's also very noticeably weaker when her fire or thunder tomes are consumed. This is a pretty obvious thing, but I need to stress that no other character gets weaker the more you attack with them.

- the recovery. I actually believe that Robin has like... the fourth worst recovery in the game. Distance isn't horrible, but she's extremely vulnerable and predictable with this move. I actually cringe when I am knocked horizontally off stage on Robin, because it means I need to predict my opponent running out to abuse me or take a risk and recover low. In a world where most everyone has a strong recovery (even if they're predictable), I think this significantly hurts her.

I may have glossed over some details, but that's basically how I feel about it. I still think Robin is able to win a decently-sized tournament, because she does have some good things going for her if the player can manage to avoid being baited too often. I just think that Robin is going to be one of those characters that falls out of favor over time when people realize that being slow and having limited and predictable projectiles is a cardinal sin in this game.

I feel like you're not really giving Robin enough credit for his air game. If he has the Levin Sword, all of his aerials are incredibly scary. Imagine slightly weaker Zelda lightning kicks that don't have to be sweetspotted. Of course this goes away for a little while if the levin sword is gone, but it's definitely something to watch out for.

He is pretty damn slow though (Slowest in the game. Zelda is the fifth slowest followed by Villager, Ganon, Jiggs, and then Robin) and he doesn't have as many ways to escape pressure on the ground. At least Zelda has her Nayru's Love and Farore's Wind, but I'm not sure what Robin can do except roll away and use Arcfire/Thunder.

 

[HeroMystic]

Robin's damage per hit with Levin Sword is actually incredibly good, so I do agree that's underrated.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

Everyone does.

I forget if that dog dies at the end.

Either way, if does remind me of one of the few things I don't like about the Kirby anime. The somewhat lack of continuity. They don't usually bring things up again, even when there should be brought up. Galbo probably being the biggest example.

Practicing things against a lv8 Villager

He plants and waters a tree, then drops two bowling balls on it in quick succession and kills it immediately.

...

I'm tellling you guys, min-

Mind games.

 

[Rizen]

CPUs have a devilish long term strategy to condition and makes us weak, off-guard, vulnerable, with seemingly buffoonish antics. Then when we least suspect it... Hoo Haw! Zair! Offstage spikes! Combos! We'll be easy prey my friends, easy prey!

 

[Berserker.]

Just to vent it off my brain. I'll try to be as "un-biased" (no promises though) as possible. I'm going to try posting my "impressions" on Shulk.

Spoiler

I'll start off with what's bad about Shulk:

His recovery is pretty bad. It's because he has trouble ledge snapping with the recovery. This hurts a LOT and anyone can abuse this quite easily. It's also one of the easier recoveries to gimp in this game. The vertical recovery distance is decent, but the horizontal distance is garbage. This issue is solved though if you have jump (thanks to the increased jump height, additional air drift at the second slash and vertical recovery boost), and speed to a lesser extent (thanks to the additional air drift at the second slash)

He's combo meat. Being a semi-heavy weight, fairly medium-large sized fighter, and having horrendous aerial acceleration, yeah. This guy is prone to getting combo'd hard. This makes going into buster and jump fairly risky. Smash art and shield art alleviate this in different ways though. Shield art can reduce the amount of hitsun you take so you can quickly punish your opponents for actually hitting you. That, or it simply reduces the damage you take from getting hit. As for smash, your decreased weight allows you to get out of combos quite early

He's easy to juggle. For the same said reasons regarding him being combo meat, his traits make him easy to juggle. Because his aerials come out really late, he can't really act fast. His only solid option against juggles is a well-spaced n-air but you have to be precise with it. It doesn't help that n-air comes out at frame 13. Jump art or speed art help you in escaping juggles though. Also if you master MALLC, you can FF Air dodge then time MALLC to nullify the air dodge landing lag.

His frame data is garbage. This is no secret. His frame data sucks. It's comparable to Dedede's. Actually, Dedede's is slightly better so that just makes it worse for Shulk. When a frame 10 move is considered "really fast" for Shulk, we have a significantly big problem here with the numbers. Unfortunately, none of the Monado Arts actually do anything to fix this. Because of his horrendous frame data....

He's very bad at dealing with close range pressure. All of his moves come out really late. His only solid option is his jab or a pivot attack/grab.

All in all, his options at disadvantaged are limited (Jump art in general really helps you at disadvantaged state, but it's not like you have it off cooldown all the time)

Lastly, all his arts come with debuffs that you should be aware off. For all the mobility you get with jump art, you'll take +22% more damage. With speed art, you'll deal 20% less damage. Shield art gimps your overall mobility, your recovery, and your damage output (by 30%). Buster nerfs your defenses so you'll take 13% more damage. It's not much though but you'll feel the nerf against characters that generally hit hard. Smash art is ultra risky since you deal less damage which makes your attacks totally unsafe on shield, while your weight is also nerf'd.


Now that I got the bad out of the way, I'll cover what's good about Shulk.

His physical attributes are decent. His dash speed, fall speed, FF speed, and air speed are good. He's also quite heavy (above average) at default. Most of the Monado arts have a positive effect on his physical attributes. Jump art is a direct upgrade for his mobility. Speed art is also a direct upgrade to his mobility. Shield art increases his weight. It should be noted that each art also has a negative effect on a certain attribute. Speed art nerfs jump height. Shield art massively nerfs Shulk's mobility

His disjoint is insane. It's obvious that Shulk has the best range in the game overall. He can easily out-range and out-space anyone with his attacks. There's a reason why his frame data had to be gimped really hard and it's because it's mostly compensated by his immense range. N-air and f-air cover a ridiculous amount of area. B-air's horizontal range is HUGE. F-smash's range allows it to be good for land chasing punishment. D-smash can catch rolls thanks to its range (and its multiple hitboxes). His tilts also have great range which players should exploit more instead of spamming n-air and f-air.

N-air. Yeah. We dedicate our God N-air to its own. N-air is pretty much Shulk's identity if we ignore his Monado Arts which I'll cover soon. Since the launch days of Smash 3DS, n-air has always been a staple to Shulk's gameplan whether he'd be on the offense or defense. Why? It has enormous range and it has great coverage. It also has 12 frames of landing lag. You can use n-air to lead into quick follow ups like n-air to jab, n-air to tilt or n-air to grab. You can also opt to space with it which is the safer way to use this move. I don't have to say much about this move. This move is Shulk's love and life.

His moveset in general is really solid. His throws function efficiently. F-throw/b-throw for racking up damage. U-throw for positioning. D-throw for combos/set ups. All his moves serve their purpose really well with the exception of back slash which is just a really bad special in general (the design is flawed and it will never work in a 1v1 setting). His u-air and d-air are fairly situational though. Otherwise, all his moves are solid. Most notably, his n-air, f-air, and b-air.

His edgeguarding game is fantastic. F-air and b-air are what come to mind with Shulk's edgeguarding. Both attacks have enormous range. Because of that, don't expect anyone to actually try contesting your edgeguarding attempts unless you input either of the aerials while you're within their range. Oh, you shouldn't do that by the way. F-air comes out at frame 14 and b-air comes out at frame 18 (front hitbox lol), so expect it to get beaten to the punch most of the time. You still need to space your edgeguards. This is further improved with the help of jump art since you can chase them off stage and possibly KO them with some jump art combos (n-air > f-air > f-air or n-air > f-air. You name it). You can also recover back safely because your recovery options are improved with jump art

The Monado arts mixes up his gameplan/spacing and allow him to adapt to certain scenarios. The Monado Arts are what make Shulk in general. Jump art allows Shulk to escape being at a disadvantage rather quickly. It also grants him better recovery options, and the increased mobility allows you to be able to bait your opponents with empty hops, FF grabs, tomahawks, etc. Your edgeguarding game becomes much safer for yourself and scarier for opponents. Speed art is Shulk's most used art for several reasons. Despite the reduced damage output, you can still rack up decent amount of damage with it since speed art. The increased ground speed, air mobility, and somewhat (?) improved air acceleration allows him to break into zones with more ease. He's also granted with some fantastic mix up options while in speed (boost pivot grab, dash dancing, perfect pivots, SH n-airs, etc. etc). Buster art allows him to space efficiently and it's also a nightmare for shields to deal with due to the increased damage output. The sheer damage increases shield pushback and eats up more shield health. Shield art and Smash art are the only arts that are situational because they serve for only a few but crucial purposes. Shield art increases his weight so Shulk will be much more difficult to KO. Smash art increases Shulk's KBG which allows his attacks to KO at a relatively low percent.

Once he's at an advantage, you're going to make your opponents FEEL it. Shulk's reward from being at an advantage is greeeeat and for added variety, it varies depending on which art you're using. With jump or speed, you can combo the hell out of your opponent. You could possibly kill them while you're at it especially with jump art activated. Buster art speaks for itself because you're going to be racking up insane amount of damage in a few seconds.

Alright, so how are his match ups?

So far, we've identified a few negative match ups:


These characters are considered Shulk's hardest match ups because they specialize in punishing. They can easily bait Shulk into pressing buttons which allows them to go in and rack up a lot of damage. Although it's not an unwinnable mess, you'll have outplay your opponent to win for this one

Because he's Diddy

Shocking right? Ba-dum-tss. Seriously, this is surprisingly difficult because Robin is one of the few characters (actually, it's just her and D3) that can contest Shulk solely because of the Levin Sword. Her control of the stage also makes it a pain for Shulk to get in. This match up could become much easier at the long run but for now, it's difficult

Other characters that are probably trouble for Shulk (not confirmed, just from the looks of it):

So yeah. Those are his negative match ups. As for the rest, some positive, some even, etc. blah. He's not HARD countered by any of the top tier but he's solidly countered by 2 (IMO, that's Sheik and Fox)

So what do I think about the character? Is he good? Yeah, he's good. No where near being bad or subpar at all. Having range while having a ton of mobility with two arts really says things.

Does he require a lot of work? Yeah, he does but the pay off is wonderful. Shulk, without doubt, has the steepest learning curve in this game because of how masterful you need to be with utilizing the Monado arts while spacing precisely. The Monado boy is all about spacing, and precision. There's also the appearance of the MALLC which is still being implemented into Shulk's meta game. This tech is quite difficult to execute consistently.

Where do you think he ranks among the cast? I'd say top 20 or top 25 at worst. Is he viable? I don't think you can win a tournament with Shulk alone. Not saying it's impossible. You can place well, but winning will be tough. You might need a secondary to handle his other bad match ups. Of course, that's the case for the whole cast, sans the top tiers. The Monado boy's got potential to become much better as we tinker more with the Monado arts, and that janky activation animation (lol).

Edit: Forgot to cover his neutral. It's fairly situational, but it's solid. His arts (except shield and smash) help him at gaining control of the match but they all operate differently. It all comes down to using your range/spacing anyway for a good percentage of a match so whatever. You can tell that I got lazy here, and yeah. I got lazy. Lol

 

[Blossom ✿]

Just to vent it off my brain. I'll try to be as "un-biased" (no promises though) as possible. I'm going to try posting my "impressions" on Shulk.

Spoiler

I'll start off with what's bad about Shulk:

His recovery is pretty bad. It's because he has trouble ledge snapping with the recovery. This hurts a LOT and anyone can abuse this quite easily. It's also one of the easier recoveries to gimp in this game. The vertical recovery distance is decent, but the horizontal distance is garbage. This issue is solved though if you have jump (thanks to the increased jump height, additional air drift at the second slash and vertical recovery boost), and speed to a lesser extent (thanks to the additional air drift at the second slash)

He's combo meat. Being a semi-heavy weight, fairly medium-large sized fighter, and having horrendous aerial acceleration, yeah. This guy is prone to getting combo'd hard. This makes going into buster and jump fairly risky. Smash art and shield art alleviate this in different ways though. Shield art can reduce the amount of hitsun you take so you can quickly punish your opponents for actually hitting you. That, or it simply reduces the damage you take from getting hit. As for smash, your decreased weight allows you to get out of combos quite early

He's easy to juggle. For the same said reasons regarding him being combo meat, his traits make him easy to juggle. Because his aerials come out really late, he can't really act fast. His only solid option against juggles is a well-spaced n-air but you have to be precise with it. It doesn't help that n-air comes out at frame 13. Jump art or speed art help you in escaping juggles though. Also if you master MALLC, you can FF Air dodge then time MALLC to nullify the air dodge landing lag.

His frame data is garbage. This is no secret. His frame data sucks. It's comparable to Dedede's. Actually, Dedede's is slightly better so that just makes it worse for Shulk. When a frame 10 move is considered "really fast" for Shulk, we have a significantly big problem here with the numbers. Unfortunately, none of the Monado Arts actually do anything to fix this. Because of his horrendous frame data....

He's very bad at dealing with close range pressure. All of his moves come out really late. His only solid option is his jab or a pivot attack/grab.

All in all, his options at disadvantaged are limited (Jump art in general really helps you at disadvantaged state, but it's not like you have it off cooldown all the time)

Lastly, all his arts come with debuffs that you should be aware off. For all the mobility you get with jump art, you'll take +22% more damage. With speed art, you'll deal 20% less damage. Shield art gimps your overall mobility, your recovery, and your damage output (by 30%). Buster nerfs your defenses so you'll take 13% more damage. It's not much though but you'll feel the nerf against characters that generally hit hard. Smash art is ultra risky since you deal less damage which makes your attacks totally unsafe on shield, while your weight is also nerf'd.


Now that I got the bad out of the way, I'll cover what's good about Shulk.

His physical attributes are decent. His dash speed, fall speed, FF speed, and air speed are good. He's also quite heavy (above average) at default. Most of the Monado arts have a positive effect on his physical attributes. Jump art is a direct upgrade for his mobility. Speed art is also a direct upgrade to his mobility. Shield art increases his weight. It should be noted that each art also has a negative effect on a certain attribute. Speed art nerfs jump height. Shield art massively nerfs Shulk's mobility
His disjoint is insane. It's obvious that Shulk has the best range in the game overall. He can easily out-range and out-space anyone with his attacks. There's a reason why his frame data had to be gimped really hard and it's because it's mostly compensated by his immense range. N-air and f-air cover a ridiculous amount of area. B-air's horizontal range is HUGE. F-smash's range allows it to be good for land chasing punishment. D-smash can catch rolls thanks to its range (and its multiple hitboxes). His tilts also have great range which players should exploit more instead of spamming n-air and f-air.

N-air. Yeah. We dedicate our God N-air to its own. N-air is pretty much Shulk's identity if we ignore his Monado Arts which I'll cover soon. Since the launch days of Smash 3DS, n-air has always been a staple to Shulk's gameplan whether he'd be on the offense or defense. Why? It has enormous range and it has great coverage. It also has 12 frames of landing lag. You can use n-air to lead into quick follow ups like n-air to jab, n-air to tilt or n-air to grab. You can also opt to space with it which is the safer way to use this move. I don't have to say much about this move. This move is Shulk's love and life.

His moveset in general is really solid. His throws function efficiently. F-throw/b-throw for racking up damage. U-throw for positioning. D-throw for combos/set ups. All his moves serve their purpose really well with the exception of back slash which is just a really bad special in general (the design is flawed and it will never work in a 1v1 setting). His u-air and d-air are fairly situational though. Otherwise, all his moves are solid. Most notably, his n-air, f-air, and b-air.

His edgeguarding game is fantastic. F-air and b-air are what come to mind with Shulk's edgeguarding. Both attacks have enormous range. Because of that, don't expect anyone to actually try contesting your edgeguarding attempts unless you input either of the aerials while you're within their range. Oh, you shouldn't do that by the way. F-air comes out at frame 14 and b-air comes out at frame 18 (front hitbox lol), so expect it to get beaten to the punch most of the time. You still need to space your edgeguards. This is further improved with the help of jump art since you can chase them off stage and possibly KO them with some jump art combos (n-air > f-air > f-air or n-air > f-air. You name it). You can also recover back safely because your recovery options are improved with jump art

The Monado arts mixes up his gameplan/spacing and allow him to adapt to certain scenarios. The Monado Arts are what make Shulk in general. Jump art allows Shulk to escape being at a disadvantage rather quickly. It also grants him better recovery options, and the increased mobility allows you to be able to bait your opponents with empty hops, FF grabs, tomahawks, etc. Your edgeguarding game becomes much safer for yourself and scarier for opponents. Speed art is Shulk's most used art for several reasons. Despite the reduced damage output, you can still rack up decent amount of damage with it since speed art. The increased ground speed, air mobility, and somewhat (?) improved air acceleration allows him to break into zones with more ease. He's also granted with some fantastic mix up options while in speed (boost pivot grab, dash dancing, perfect pivots, SH n-airs, etc. etc). Buster art allows him to space efficiently and it's also a nightmare for shields to deal with due to the increased damage output. The sheer damage increases shield pushback and eats up more shield health. Shield art and Smash art are the only arts that are situational because they serve for only a few but crucial purposes. Shield art increases his weight so Shulk will be much more difficult to KO. Smash art increases Shulk's KBG which allows his attacks to KO at a relatively low percent.

Once he's at an advantage, you're going to make your opponents FEEL it. Shulk's reward from being at an advantage is greeeeat and for added variety, it varies depending on which art you're using. With jump or speed, you can combo the hell out of your opponent. You could possibly kill them while you're at it especially with jump art activated. Buster art speaks for itself because you're going to be racking up insane amount of damage in a few seconds.

Alright, so how are his match ups?

So far, we've identified a few negative match ups:


These characters are considered Shulk's hardest match ups because they specialize in punishing. They can easily bait Shulk into pressing buttons which allows them to go in and rack up a lot of damage. Although it's not an unwinnable mess, you'll have outplay your opponent to win for this one

Because he's Diddy

Shocking right? Ba-dum-tss. Seriously, this is surprisingly difficult because Robin is one of the few characters (actually, it's just her and D3) that can contest Shulk solely because of the Levin Sword. Her control of the stage also makes it a pain for Shulk to get in. This match up could become much easier at the long run but for now, it's difficult

Other characters that are probably trouble for Shulk (not confirmed, just from the looks of it):

So yeah. Those are his negative match ups. As for the rest, some positive, some even, etc. blah. He's not HARD countered by any of the top tier but he's solidly countered by 2 (IMO, that's Sheik and Fox)

So what do I think about the character? Is he good? Yeah, he's good. No where near being bad or subpar at all. Having range while having a ton of mobility with two arts really says things.

Does he require a lot of work? Yeah, he does but the pay off is wonderful. Shulk, without doubt, has the steepest learning curve in this game because of how masterful you need to be with utilizing the Monado arts while spacing precisely. The Monado boy is all about spacing, and precision. There's also the appearance of the MALLC which is still being implemented into Shulk's meta game. This tech is quite difficult to execute consistently.

Where do you think he ranks among the cast? I'd say top 20 or top 25 at worst. Is he viable? I don't think you can win a tournament with Shulk alone. Not saying it's impossible. You can place well, but winning will be tough. You might need a secondary to handle his other bad match ups. Of course, that's the case for the whole cast, sans the top tiers. The Monado boy's got potential to become much better as we tinker more with the Monado arts, and that janky activation animation (lol).

Speaking of the frame data, I kinda want to see a side by side comparison Dedede's and Shulk's frame data.
Just to see how it is between the two characters.

 

[Berserker.]

( vs )

Jab (5 vs 10)
Dash attack (15 vs 26)
F-tilt (12 vs 12)
U-tilt (10 vs 9)
D-tilt (10 vs 6)
F-smash (14 vs 42)
U-smash (18 vs 17)
D-smash (18 vs 14)
N-air (13 vs 7)
F-air (14 vs 13)
B-air (18 vs 17)
U-air (14 vs 10)
D-air (14 vs 22)

 

[Rizen]

I never thought I'd say this but, Link has faster frame data than someone who isn't Ganon!

 

[Blossom ✿]

( vs )

Jab (5 vs 10)
Dash attack (15 vs 26)
F-tilt (12 vs 12)
U-tilt (10 vs 9)
D-tilt (10 vs 6)
F-smash (14 vs 42)
U-smash (18 vs 17)
D-smash (18 vs 14)
N-air (13 vs 7)
F-air (14 vs 13)
B-air (18 vs 17)
U-air (14 vs 10)
D-air (14 vs 22)

Thanks, very much appreciate it
Also, frame 42 fsmash?! Sheesh, wouldn't that mean D3 has the slowest Fsmash in the game?
Or is there someone else with a slower fsmash than D3?

 

[Tilk]

Just to vent it off my brain. I'll try to be as "un-biased" (no promises though) as possible. I'm going to try posting my "impressions" on Shulk.

Spoiler

I'll start off with what's bad about Shulk:

His recovery is pretty bad. It's because he has trouble ledge snapping with the recovery. This hurts a LOT and anyone can abuse this quite easily. It's also one of the easier recoveries to gimp in this game. The vertical recovery distance is decent, but the horizontal distance is garbage. This issue is solved though if you have jump (thanks to the increased jump height, additional air drift at the second slash and vertical recovery boost), and speed to a lesser extent (thanks to the additional air drift at the second slash)

He's combo meat. Being a semi-heavy weight, fairly medium-large sized fighter, and having horrendous aerial acceleration, yeah. This guy is prone to getting combo'd hard. This makes going into buster and jump fairly risky. Smash art and shield art alleviate this in different ways though. Shield art can reduce the amount of hitsun you take so you can quickly punish your opponents for actually hitting you. That, or it simply reduces the damage you take from getting hit. As for smash, your decreased weight allows you to get out of combos quite early

He's easy to juggle. For the same said reasons regarding him being combo meat, his traits make him easy to juggle. Because his aerials come out really late, he can't really act fast. His only solid option against juggles is a well-spaced n-air but you have to be precise with it. It doesn't help that n-air comes out at frame 13. Jump art or speed art help you in escaping juggles though. Also if you master MALLC, you can FF Air dodge then time MALLC to nullify the air dodge landing lag.

His frame data is garbage. This is no secret. His frame data sucks. It's comparable to Dedede's. Actually, Dedede's is slightly better so that just makes it worse for Shulk. When a frame 10 move is considered "really fast" for Shulk, we have a significantly big problem here with the numbers. Unfortunately, none of the Monado Arts actually do anything to fix this. Because of his horrendous frame data....

He's very bad at dealing with close range pressure. All of his moves come out really late. His only solid option is his jab or a pivot attack/grab.

All in all, his options at disadvantaged are limited (Jump art in general really helps you at disadvantaged state, but it's not like you have it off cooldown all the time)

Lastly, all his arts come with debuffs that you should be aware off. For all the mobility you get with jump art, you'll take +22% more damage. With speed art, you'll deal 20% less damage. Shield art gimps your overall mobility, your recovery, and your damage output (by 30%). Buster nerfs your defenses so you'll take 13% more damage. It's not much though but you'll feel the nerf against characters that generally hit hard. Smash art is ultra risky since you deal less damage which makes your attacks totally unsafe on shield, while your weight is also nerf'd.


Now that I got the bad out of the way, I'll cover what's good about Shulk.

His physical attributes are decent. His dash speed, fall speed, FF speed, and air speed are good. He's also quite heavy (above average) at default. Most of the Monado arts have a positive effect on his physical attributes. Jump art is a direct upgrade for his mobility. Speed art is also a direct upgrade to his mobility. Shield art increases his weight. It should be noted that each art also has a negative effect on a certain attribute. Speed art nerfs jump height. Shield art massively nerfs Shulk's mobility

His disjoint is insane. It's obvious that Shulk has the best range in the game overall. He can easily out-range and out-space anyone with his attacks. There's a reason why his frame data had to be gimped really hard and it's because it's mostly compensated by his immense range. N-air and f-air cover a ridiculous amount of area. B-air's horizontal range is HUGE. F-smash's range allows it to be good for land chasing punishment. D-smash can catch rolls thanks to its range (and its multiple hitboxes). His tilts also have great range which players should exploit more instead of spamming n-air and f-air.

N-air. Yeah. We dedicate our God N-air to its own. N-air is pretty much Shulk's identity if we ignore his Monado Arts which I'll cover soon. Since the launch days of Smash 3DS, n-air has always been a staple to Shulk's gameplan whether he'd be on the offense or defense. Why? It has enormous range and it has great coverage. It also has 12 frames of landing lag. You can use n-air to lead into quick follow ups like n-air to jab, n-air to tilt or n-air to grab. You can also opt to space with it which is the safer way to use this move. I don't have to say much about this move. This move is Shulk's love and life.

His moveset in general is really solid. His throws function efficiently. F-throw/b-throw for racking up damage. U-throw for positioning. D-throw for combos/set ups. All his moves serve their purpose really well with the exception of back slash which is just a really bad special in general (the design is flawed and it will never work in a 1v1 setting). His u-air and d-air are fairly situational though. Otherwise, all his moves are solid. Most notably, his n-air, f-air, and b-air.

His edgeguarding game is fantastic. F-air and b-air are what come to mind with Shulk's edgeguarding. Both attacks have enormous range. Because of that, don't expect anyone to actually try contesting your edgeguarding attempts unless you input either of the aerials while you're within their range. Oh, you shouldn't do that by the way. F-air comes out at frame 14 and b-air comes out at frame 18 (front hitbox lol), so expect it to get beaten to the punch most of the time. You still need to space your edgeguards. This is further improved with the help of jump art since you can chase them off stage and possibly KO them with some jump art combos (n-air > f-air > f-air or n-air > f-air. You name it). You can also recover back safely because your recovery options are improved with jump art

The Monado arts mixes up his gameplan/spacing and allow him to adapt to certain scenarios. The Monado Arts are what make Shulk in general. Jump art allows Shulk to escape being at a disadvantage rather quickly. It also grants him better recovery options, and the increased mobility allows you to be able to bait your opponents with empty hops, FF grabs, tomahawks, etc. Your edgeguarding game becomes much safer for yourself and scarier for opponents. Speed art is Shulk's most used art for several reasons. Despite the reduced damage output, you can still rack up decent amount of damage with it since speed art. The increased ground speed, air mobility, and somewhat (?) improved air acceleration allows him to break into zones with more ease. He's also granted with some fantastic mix up options while in speed (boost pivot grab, dash dancing, perfect pivots, SH n-airs, etc. etc). Buster art allows him to space efficiently and it's also a nightmare for shields to deal with due to the increased damage output. The sheer damage increases shield pushback and eats up more shield health. Shield art and Smash art are the only arts that are situational because they serve for only a few but crucial purposes. Shield art increases his weight so Shulk will be much more difficult to KO. Smash art increases Shulk's KBG which allows his attacks to KO at a relatively low percent.

Once he's at an advantage, you're going to make your opponents FEEL it. Shulk's reward from being at an advantage is greeeeat and for added variety, it varies depending on which art you're using. With jump or speed, you can combo the hell out of your opponent. You could possibly kill them while you're at it especially with jump art activated. Buster art speaks for itself because you're going to be racking up insane amount of damage in a few seconds.

Alright, so how are his match ups?

So far, we've identified a few negative match ups:


These characters are considered Shulk's hardest match ups because they specialize in punishing. They can easily bait Shulk into pressing buttons which allows them to go in and rack up a lot of damage. Although it's not an unwinnable mess, you'll have outplay your opponent to win for this one

Because he's Diddy

Shocking right? Ba-dum-tss. Seriously, this is surprisingly difficult because Robin is one of the few characters (actually, it's just her and D3) that can contest Shulk solely because of the Levin Sword. Her control of the stage also makes it a pain for Shulk to get in. This match up could become much easier at the long run but for now, it's difficult

Other characters that are probably trouble for Shulk (not confirmed, just from the looks of it):

So yeah. Those are his negative match ups. As for the rest, some positive, some even, etc. blah. He's not HARD countered by any of the top tier but he's solidly countered by 2 (IMO, that's Sheik and Fox)

So what do I think about the character? Is he good? Yeah, he's good. No where near being bad or subpar at all. Having range while having a ton of mobility with two arts really says things.

Does he require a lot of work? Yeah, he does but the pay off is wonderful. Shulk, without doubt, has the steepest learning curve in this game because of how masterful you need to be with utilizing the Monado arts while spacing precisely. The Monado boy is all about spacing, and precision. There's also the appearance of the MALLC which is still being implemented into Shulk's meta game. This tech is quite difficult to execute consistently.

Where do you think he ranks among the cast? I'd say top 20 or top 25 at worst. Is he viable? I don't think you can win a tournament with Shulk alone. Not saying it's impossible. You can place well, but winning will be tough. You might need a secondary to handle his other bad match ups. Of course, that's the case for the whole cast, sans the top tiers. The Monado boy's got potential to become much better as we tinker more with the Monado arts, and that janky activation animation (lol).

Edit: Forgot to cover his neutral. It's fairly situational, but it's solid. His arts (except shield and smash) help him at gaining control of the match but they all operate differently. It all comes down to using your range/spacing anyway for a good percentage of a match so whatever. You can tell that I got lazy here, and yeah. I got lazy. Lol

I'm not going to type much seeing as It's 7:54 AM but speaking as a Sonic secondary, I'll definetly agree Shulk has a rough time taking Sonic down.

This is very much due to high ending lag, landing lag, and yes, Sonic's ability to punish oh so well. He may have the jump on Sonic with insane range, but if your timing is right, closing in with Sonic is an absolute breeze.

I mean of course Smash art still destroys Sonic, but given how fast he is, I don't think the opponent will have much time to change, leaving Shulk with limited options and a heavy oppertunity to be punished, which is where Sonic obviously capitalizes.

And don't even get me started on Sonic's edgeguarding game with how bad Shulk's recovery is.

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

Shulk completely walls Kirby out
But once you get in it's juggle fest
Morning peeps

 

[Berserker.]

Just needed to dump my impressions somewhere. If you guys have any questions about Shulk, just ask me

I'm still extremely baffled that our suspicions since the Wii U's release were on point. Diddy's really unbeatable.

I decided to go back to using Melee Marth. Melee Sheik feels... way too easy to use. D-throw to f-air is dumb so UM... No. Back to Marth. I need a sword to live.

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

I'm too lazy to visit the Shulk boards or ask the group
What are some matchups Shulk really shines in?

 

[Macchiato]

Just needed to dump my impressions somewhere. If you guys have any questions about Shulk, just ask me

I'm still extremely baffled that our suspicions since the Wii U's release were on point. Diddy's really unbeatable.

I decided to go back to using Melee Marth. Melee Sheik feels... way too easy to use. D-throw to f-air is dumb so UM... No. Back to Marth. I need a sword to live.

To this day I still thing sheik is better than diddy. I also think that in the future peach will be top tier. Also NoA knows about the diddy problem because they watch smash streams. Let's hope they tell Sakurai.

 

[Berserker.]

I'm too lazy to visit the Shulk boards or ask the group
What are some matchups Shulk really shines in?

IMO or as far as I know



Just from my experience in playing at local tournaments.

 

[Tilk]

I'm too lazy to visit the Shulk boards or ask the group
What are some matchups Shulk really shines in?

The Shulk boards are littered with people who've PLAYED Xenoblade who talk more about that then Smash.

At least from what I've seen.

I guess I'm not cut out for that seeing as I haven't turned toward the east and chanted: "HAIL N-AIR" the minimum number of times to be socially accepted there.

 

[Berserker.]

The Shulk boards are littered with people who've PLAYED Xenoblade who talk more about that then Smash.

At least from what I've seen.

I guess I'm not cut out for that seeing as I haven't turned toward the east and chanted: "HAIL N-AIR" the minimum number of times to be socially accepted there.

If that's what you think then you should probably look outside its social. I barely post in the Shulk social. I think I have more posts here than I have in the social (by a land slide).

To this day I still thing sheik is better than diddy

Dude. No.

 

[Shaya]

CPUs have a devilish long term strategy to condition and makes us weak, off-guard, vulnerable, with seemingly buffoonish antics. Then when we least suspect it... Hoo Haw! Zair! Offstage spikes! Combos! We'll be easy prey my friends, easy prey!

You're right, misuse of a training method could backfire. You shouldn't be learning how to play the game through CPUs, that's for sure.

But the point is not about using CPUs like opponents, it's about setting conditions to achieve.
Being a great player requires a lot of work and dedication and the brain gets lazy during monotony. "Blindly" doing anything won't get you results, you need purpose. Wifi is an unnatural medium and succeeding requires comfortability in everything you do. If you are finding success and significant improvement with just wifi, great! But are you perfect with execution? Do you believe you have an amazing understanding of your character(s) in and out? Have you studied match ups, options, etc and gone about exploring them yourself before use in practice?

Do you know your mistakes every time you make them even if your opponent doesn't challenge them? Sometimes human opponents aren't the right conditions to get used to something.
If I'm wanting to improve the fastest through human opponents, it's through trying to find all levels of skilled opponents and playing them with a goal in mind (as well). A strategy may never see the light of day if all you're ever playing against are people significantly better than you where the focus should be figuring out what's going wrong (and how to improve incrementally (the 1% differences), fighting people of similar skill usually has various mental aspects to it that depends on how hard ones willing to try, mentoring people worse than you gets you thinking about the game "oh this is something I'm abusing against you" "if you're having issues with this, try that". You may not always have the right opponents to play against, this stuff can be supplemented, and is definitely means for domination.

"Lab time" is a buzz phrase everyone reads about. You don't go into the laboratory without a hypothesis and the tools to measure your progress.

 

[Macchiato]

IMO or as far as I know



Just from my experience in playing at local tournaments.

I don't think Zelda struggles with Shulk. With his lag she can punish him and get an elevator. He's also easily gimped by her too. I've played the match up a lot against @S.F.L.R_9 and a few times against @Nammy12 I think it's even or slightly in Zeldas favor.

How does shulk keep up with kirby after he swallows him.

I agree with everyone else yew listed though

 

[Tilk]

If that's what you think then you should probably look outside its social. I barely post in the Shulk social. I think I have more posts here than I have in the social (by a land slide).

More than likely, but I haven't experimented too much with Shulk or think I want to since he's rather technical... Which seems pretty hypocritical seeing as I main Mega Man, so I don't know if I'll be visiting there anytime soon seeing as I don't really play him.

And the Sonic pages seem littered with deviant art recoloring and fan fictions and what not... (Groans) So I'm not sure about posting there.

At least the people here are somewhat quaint, but maybe that's my imagination or an illusion,

 

[Soul.]

Lmao what is KMZ

Diddy's really unbeatable.

He is a very good character; he has been winning tourneys (captain obvious). To say that he is unbeatable is silly imo. People will find (are finding) ways to beat him.

Like, the character seems polarizing just like early Melee Sheik. I won't deny that Mr. Monkey's pros outweigh his "cons" if he has them. No character is perfect, excluding Brawl MK. But when you have money on the ****ing line, people just stick to him to win easily.

It's Brawl Diddy's design that is unbeatable. Top tier in both games. If they made Diddy from scratch he would be either decent or bad. imo I feel Diddy depends on his Brawl design to be good.

 

[Berserker.]

I don't think Zelda struggles with Shulk. With his lag she can punish him and get an elevator. He's also easily gimped by her too. I've played the match up a lot against @S.F.L.R_9 and a few times against @Nammy12 I think it's even or slightly in Zeldas favor.

How does shulk keep up with kirby after he swallows him.

I agree with everyone else yew listed though

He has range over Zelda so he can keep himself off from Zelda's threat range. He also has much more mobility than Zelda once he has speed and jump activated. Although Shulk's attacks are laggy and his recovery is obviously easy to gimp (jump art helps though), he still has a lot of tools that easily tip the match to his favor. He just racks up damage and kills better than Zelda does in the match up. There's really no way this is near even or Zelda's favor.

Maybe it's because the Zelda I fight with is bad, but I really don't see it. I'll ask other Zelda mains what they think about the match up (you're too positive for my soul Machiatto~)

And how does Kirby swallow Shulk? That's the better question.

Lmao what is KMZ

He is a very good character; he has been winning tourneys (captain obvious). To say that he is unbeatable is silly imo. People will find (are finding) ways to beat him.

Name one character that actually has a shot at beating him

With u-throw > u-air being unescapable, idk anymore

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

I think I'll start practicing with CPUs
I've honestly been grinding out MP game after MP game and I've seen no progress
Actually deterioration
I'm going to look up some combos and shiz for the characters I use and start whaling on CPUs till I can pull them off
It gives me a way to improve a bit

 

[Soul.]

Name one character that actually has a shot at beating him

lol what are the top tiers in this game.

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

]And how does Kirby swallow Shulk? That's the better question.

^^^
Nair and fair wall Kirby out pretty well
The only Kirby gets an opening is if Shulk throws out a smash attack and whiffs, or is trying to get back onstage
Dair is pretty effective at gimping Shulk once he's offstage
Customs on is even worse for monady boy
Jumping Inhale gives us another option to get in and inhale
Upper Cutter has reach, and I don't see Shulk escaping that while he's trying to get back on stage
Once you read the airdodge that is
Kirby's super armor side b ****s through nairs and fairs and kills at about 40, so unless they counter that's a way to get in
After 100% there is no downside of using that hammer lmao

 

[Berserker.]

lol what are the top tiers in this game.

Melee Fox was a good example of a "balanced" top tier. He goes even against Marth, Falco, and Samus iirc. He wasn't "totally" unbeatable. Diddy has no bad match ups or even match ups. That's an issue. It's even more baffling that he's still winning at customs-on tournaments.

Customs on is even worse for monady boy
Jumping Inhale gives us another option to get in and inhale
Upper Cutter has reach, and I don't see Shulk escaping that while he's trying to get back on stage
Once you read the airdodge that is
Kirby's super armor side b ****s through nairs and fairs and kills at about 40

I don't really discuss customs because of obvious reasons (customs are banned in my region)

 

[Rizen]

@ Shaya my post was a joke playing off of people saying 'CPU villager did this weird thing' then someone else said 'mindgames'.
http://smashboards.com/threads/zelda-social-ban•zelda.344739/page-827#post-18857322
It wasn't really directed at your comments.

______________
I need to play shulks and learn that MU sometime.

 

[Soul.]

Melee Fox was a good example of a "balanced" top tier. He goes even against Marth, Falco, and Samus iirc. He wasn't "totally" unbeatable. Diddy has no bad match ups or even match ups. That's an issue. It's even more baffling that he's still winning at customs-on tournaments.

Which leads me to, well, **** Diddy's design. Customs aren't helping because they aren't everything; he keeps winning and Smash 4 will turn into a monkey rap.
Melee is the only game that has balanced top tiers.

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

Melee Fox was a good example of a "balanced" top tier. He goes even against Marth, Falco, and Samus iirc. He wasn't "totally" unbeatable. Diddy has no bad match ups or even match ups. That's an issue. It's even more baffling that he's still winning at customs-on tournaments.

I don't really discuss customs because of obvious reasons (customs are banned in my region)

Ah okay
I'd actually like to play your Shulk
If all goes well I get my 3DS from my friend tooday
And I get back from class at like 12 EST
Would you be up for some matches?

 

[Macchiato]

He has range over Zelda so he can keep himself off from Zelda's threat range. He also has much more mobility than Zelda once he has speed and jump activated. Although Shulk's attacks are laggy and his recovery is obviously easy to gimp (jump art helps though), he still has a lot of tools that easily tip the match to his favor. He just racks up damage and kills better than Zelda does in the match up. There's really no way this is near even or Zelda's favor.

Maybe it's because the Zelda I fight with is bad, but I really don't see it. I'll ask other Zelda mains what they think about the match up (you're too positive for my soul Machiatto~)

And how does Kirby swallow Shulk? That's the better question.

Name one character that actually has a shot at beating him

With u-throw > u-air being unescapable, idk anymore

alright thought also note that it's rare to find a good zelda. The lag in his moves are enough for us to punish. Let's get @S.F.L.R_9 opinion on this.

Well umm just YOLO it with kirby until yew get it. Just having the copy ability makes it not as bad as jigglypuff.

 

[Berserker.]

Ah okay
I'd actually like to play your Shulk
If all goes well I get my 3DS from my friend tooday
And I get back from class at like 12 EST
Would you be up for some matches?

<< Read the location

I usually reject wifi requests so yeah. My bad '._.

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

<< Read the location

I usually reject wifi requests so yeah. My bad '._.

Oh right lmao
No worries

 

[Tilk]

Me playing a Diddy:

Ok maybe he'll just stay at bay for a bit.. nope, he's closing in better keep him at bay with the Mega Buster... Ok he seems to be confused, now's my chance to charge F-Smash and-OH SH*T NO NOT THE F*CKING THROW TO U-AIR.

Edit: Lol, actually the most trouble I usually have is with Villagers surprisingly. No offense to Villager mains... But I can't stand him sometimes...

Screw the darn slingshot.

 

[Berserker.]

Me playing a Diddy:

Ok maybe he'll just stay at bay for a bit.. nope, he's closing in better keep him at bay with the Mega Buster... Ok he seems to be confused, now's my chance to charge F-Smash and-OH SH*T NO NOT THE F*CKING THROW TO U-AIR.

Edit: Lol, actually the most trouble I usually have is with Villagers surprisingly. No offense to Villager mains... But I can't stand him sometimes...

Screw the darn slingshot.

Villager's worst match up is Mega Man iirc. @Locke 06 could be of help here

 

[HeroMystic]

Megaman really does body a lot of spacing characters it seems.