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Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

Phenomiracle

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 7, 2012
Messages
782
Location
New Jersey
What I don't understand about Zelda is that she is supposed to be one of the "hits hard, moves slow" kind of characters, but the other characters that also fall under this definition can at least take a ton of damage before getting KOed. Sure, you might be able to hit Bowser a bit easily because he is a big target, but he can take it ALL and if he manages to get just 4 good hits on you, you're KOed. Zelda is easy to hit too because if she ever wants to attack there is all that start/end lag, but it is the opposite for her; YOU get 4 good hits on HER, and she's done. Since this is the case, they need to give her a LOT more mobility. She is not balanced as is.
Not to mention that none of the heavy characters come with the insane amount of required precision on their aerials that Zelda has, and still have massive KB and damage (Bowser's Bair, Holy Christ) that don't make our aerial sweetspots's damage/KB worth a damn.

In terms of actualizing her design philosophy, I think Zelda needs to be compared with heavy characters the most during development. I've always liked the idea that she should be a glass cannon, it suits her character. Her drastically decreased aerial range compared to other heavy characters' aerials means she needs to be far, far less punishable. Her aerials should be much stronger (the Nair and Uair nerfs from Brawl still make my head spin) and should have very minimal endlag, if any at all.

Which moves could they possibly have found buffs in aside FW?
Dair.

Fsmash and Usmash were buffed in damage.

....Dthrow
Dthrow was nerfed.
 
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Hyrule Candy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
289
Location
Baltimore, MD
Aside from jumping off the stage, what am I supposed to do in the Shulk matchup? I rarely see good Shulks, but when I do it's such a bother. Some of them make it so hard to get in close and speed monado definitely doesn't help me. Jump monado is super scary off stage because he can just jump out to maximum FW distance and go for a fair / bair / dair mid UpB start up. All I can hope to do is watch them flub a smash attack and punish them for it. Basically, he has to do something unsafe. Help me,..
Try approaching with fair or jump over them, air dodge, then bair. You could jump than Nayru's. Hahaha I play a really risky zelda
 

ZombieBran

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
1,645
Smash Wiki is full of misleading info.
Look at Zelda's page. They don't acknowledge many nerfs, gloss over things, and even outright lie. I know someone who tried to use that page as an explanation for why my woes with Zelda are unfounded.

"Forward tilt, up smash and neutral aerial have been buffed."
OH REALLY?
 

Phenomiracle

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 7, 2012
Messages
782
Location
New Jersey
^ but it does 11% if you land all the hits behind Zelda and play against your baby brother, please understand.

/s
 
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KuroganeHammer

It's ya boy
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Jul 15, 2012
Messages
15,985
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Australia
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Aerodrome
It's funny because there is no reason for it to be like this

I would like to read sakurais ideas behind wtf he was trying to accomplish with this
 

Hyrule Candy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
289
Location
Baltimore, MD
It's funny because there is no reason for it to be like this

I would like to read sakurais ideas behind wtf he was trying to accomplish with this
I bet u if u read his mind. All u will find is "zelda is too broken" and "Diddy needs a buff"
 
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TheDarkKnightNoivern

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 24, 2014
Messages
3,641
Location
Croft Manor
I bet u if u read his mind. All u will find is "zelda is too broken" and "Diddy needs a buff"
Don't forget "We need more Kid icarus, mario and fire emblem characters"

Also "The zelda franchise is garbage, let's make all their characters awful and not add a new rep"

And who could ignore "What the **** is a star fox?"
 
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Alphatron

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 5, 2008
Messages
2,269
Try approaching with fair or jump over them, air dodge, then bair. You could jump than Nayru's. Hahaha I play a really risky zelda
Admittedly, I never use the airdodge to bair tech. I should try to incorporate that more every now and then if my opponent isn't shield happy.

And who could ignore "What the **** is a star fox?"
At least Star Fox got this awesome new stage with pretty visuals that a year of development time. Meanwhile, Skyloft re-uses Wii textures and looks exactly the same as it did in Skyward Sword. Probably intentional, but in a game where everything is in HD, it looks somewhat out of place.
 

Hyrule Candy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
289
Location
Baltimore, MD
Tell me if I'm wrong on the buffs and nerfs

Jab: buffed. Faster start up and connects better

Ftilt: it feels buffed. Does it have more KB

Dtilt: it feels exactly the same

Utilt: buffed imo. Better for combos and its a combo starter. It's also faster.

Dash Attack: I think it's buffed. The sweetspot can kill. It also puts the opponent in an awkward angle

Usmash: The range is ass. NERFED BAD

Fsmash: Feels the same. Didn't they pop out in brawl too?

Dsmash: nerfed as hell. No longer fastest snash move. Nerfed range and KB too. Oh I miss brawl dsmash

Nair: still crazy good. Good follow up and it's pretty fast. It got a damage nerf doe.

Bair/fair: can someone confirm if the sweetspot is bigger because it feels that way. If not than nerfed. If it is then it's as good as in brawl.

Uair: KB nerf and hitbox nerf.

Dair: Hitbox was buffed
 

LimitCrown

Smash Ace
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Nov 30, 2014
Messages
636
NNID
LimitCrown
3DS FC
0903-2850-8324
I thought that Zelda's neutral aerial could auto-cancel.
 

BJN39

Smash Data Ranger
Moderator
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Messages
5,047
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The Zelda Boards
Tell me if I'm wrong on the buffs and nerfs

Jab: buffed. Faster start up and connects better

Ftilt: it feels buffed. Does it have more KB

Dtilt: it feels exactly the same

Utilt: buffed imo. Better for combos and its a combo starter. It's also faster.

Dash Attack: I think it's buffed. The sweetspot can kill. It also puts the opponent in an awkward angle

Usmash: The range is ***. NERFED BAD

Fsmash: Feels the same. Didn't they pop out in brawl too?

Dsmash: nerfed as hell. No longer fastest snash move. Nerfed range and KB too. Oh I miss brawl dsmash

Nair: still crazy good. Good follow up and it's pretty fast. It got a damage nerf doe.

Bair/fair: can someone confirm if the sweetspot is bigger because it feels that way. If not than nerfed. If it is then it's as good as in brawl.

Uair: KB nerf and hitbox nerf.

Dair: Hitbox was buffed


Eauxkay, I'll evaluate this

Jab : Incorrect on the startup. It's the same as Brawl. Connection is better though, and the farthest hit-box's final hit is more helpful in size, complementing the better mechanics on SDI and hit-angles.

Ftilt : Incorrect. It's actually weaker than Brawl's as a result of a 1% damage decrease from Brawl.

Dtilt : Definitely different, as the hit-box ONLY hits upwards now, eventually letting your opponent escape after a couple Dtilts. Not to mention the large damage nerf. In Brawl, it actually METEORED on grounded opponents, causing that lengthly stun animation.

Utilt : Purely nerfed or buffed based on opinion. Having all around worse upward KO options hurts the fact this can't KO till 180%. But dat 0.7% damage buff in 1.0.4 DOE.

Dash Attack : Reworked. The hit-boxes are placed differently, and the sweetspot is smaller, but arguably more powerful. Everything else is roughly the smae enough.

Fsmash : You're right here. Almost literally identical as far as use goes. Anything about end lag increase is probs placebo.

Dsmash : Right 100%. I won't go into details, but yeah. Overall terribly hurt. Still has its uses though, as it's still fast, and has its low angle.

Usmash : Yup. Startup, range, reliability, KO prowess were all made worse. It's pretty sad tbh.

NAir : Nerfed. Worse damage, auto-cancel window is nearly nonexistent, and the landing lag is nearly doubled. Not to mention it now lacks central hit-boxes during the muliti-hits, giving it that blind-spot feeling I think @Mocha had mentioned when playing the WiiU version. Even after all of that though,the move is still her most reliable aerial.... LOL.

FAir/BAir : IDK 'bout the hit-box on sweetspot comparison-wise, but yeah, the rest is true: Increased startup, increased endlag by an extreme 25+ frames, increased landing lag, reduced sweetspot Base KB, and retains many weird and bad designs present everywhere else on the move.

UAir : Yeah, a 30 KB growth nerf to be exact. :c I still am unsure on the hit-box. I think it's roughly the same as Brawl. IDK where the hit-box whoo-haa came from tbh.

DAir : I suppose this is a move I will accept as buffed. 2 less landing lag frames, a stronger sourspot that does 5%, sweetspot can hit grounded opponents and has a larger hit-box. You're pretty much right here.
 
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EOE

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 9, 2012
Messages
119
Location
EU
I want old F-tilt back because F-tilt > U-smash would let me use her U-smash more than 0 times per match.

D-tilt is much, much worse because it no longer locks. In Brawl, you could often get at least 2 D-tilts > D-smash. D-tilt also occasionally tripped, and you could react to this and follow-up with a guaranteed F-smash. D-tilt tech chases out of trip were also fun.

U-tilt does NOT start combos. It may have been intended to do so, but nothing is guaranteed out of it. It's no longer a kill option.

N-air has lag now and the trajectory is completely different. If we had old N-air in this game, we would see things like auto-cancel N-air > B-air/Grab/F-smash being guaranteed.

To me, D-air and Up-B feel like the only noticeable buffs.

EDIT: ninja'd >->
 
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BJN39

Smash Data Ranger
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@ Rizen Rizen it does its just harder to do than in brawl
In theory, NEITHER iteration should get more than 1-2 Dtilts.

Brawl : Your opponent realizes you're Dtilting and and does a power SDI away and avoids even a Dsmash. Still more reliable as you COULD trip them.

SSB4 : You opponent DI's away and increases the pushnack of Dtilt and jumps away. No tripping so no alternate chances.

EDIT : Hoo there, we gettin' up there on thread visitors, let's break our record!
 
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Phenomiracle

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 7, 2012
Messages
782
Location
New Jersey
And to think:

We got all these pathetic, head-scratching nerfs all for a risky FW that'll work only on the same scrubs who whined about Brawl's Din's Fire being too good.
 
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Hyrule Candy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
289
Location
Baltimore, MD
I really need someone to confirm the hitbox buff on fair and bair.

The only way someone gets hit by Farore's wind is...
1. There a scrub
2. I got super lucky
3. I elevatored them
 

ZombieBran

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
1,645
I don't know if Uair's hitbox was nerfed but I do know the GFX are horribly mismatched. It's at Din's level.
 

BJN39

Smash Data Ranger
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I don't know if Uair's hitbox was nerfed but I do know the GFX are horribly mismatched. It's at Din's level.
Nothing is at Din's visual mismatch level sis. :rolleyes:

I actually find that it occasionally reaches farther than the visual suggests. Especially at the top. Which is weird...
 
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Fuoujin 2

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Nov 12, 2014
Messages
134
Someone tried to tell me about all these moves that got buffed on my Zelda video

And I was like

No.
excuse you, Nairo said Din's Fire has the same hitbox as brawl.
Stop being bad at the game and go watch his matches~

One of my favourite OoS options as Zelda was up smash in Melee/Brawl. Feels like this was butchered as well.
Sis Up smash was everything in Brawl.
Sucking people in and killing them at 115(lbr it was never fresh cause we needed it to rack up damage)
Using it twice in a row on Falco and fat characters at low percents.
Using running up smash to get the kill and it actually working.



R.I.P Brawl Zelda.

You never know what you got till it's gone.

 

BJN39

Smash Data Ranger
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So no one knows if bair and fairs sweetspot hitbox was buffed? No? Ok
Well, I don't think we have the type of data that would allow us to compare it against Brawl yet.

But on an player-playing-Zelda experience level, it's widely believed that they have a very slightly larger hit-box.

EDIT :
HAHAHA
sis, that's a GIF of project M Zelda's Usmash. Know your source.

In reality Brawl Usmash has way more height and width than this GIF. Which just makes it more rip...
 
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Fuoujin 2

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Nov 12, 2014
Messages
134
Well, I don't think we have the type of data that would allow us to compare it against Brawl yet.

But on an player-playing-Zelda experience level, it's widely believed that they have a very slightly larger hit-box.

EDIT :


HAHAHA
sis, that's a GIF of project M Zelda's Usmash. Know your source.

In reality Brawl Usmash is almost literally double the height and width of this GIF. Which just makes it more rip...
I thoughT they left up smash the same in hitbox size for PM?
It was the only gif I could find
#oop
 

Hyrule Candy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
289
Location
Baltimore, MD
Well, I don't think we have the type of data that would allow us to compare it against Brawl yet.

But on an player-playing-Zelda experience level, it's widely believed that they have a very slightly larger hit-box.
That helps it because I get the sweetspotted Lightning kicks so much more consistant now. I think it's as good as brawl because of that.
does fsmash have less range it feels smaller?
I think it's exactly the same
 

Fuoujin 2

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Nov 12, 2014
Messages
134
BJ find a gif/pic so I can swap it out.

Even the good sis @KayLo! has completely droppedT Zelda and doesn't even bother stopping by the social threads.
bleß.


That helps it because I get the sweetspotted Lightning kicks so much more consistant now. I think it's as good as brawl because of that.

I think it's exactly the same
Either F smash was nerfed in range or f tilt was given a massive range buff.
 
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BJN39

Smash Data Ranger
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The Zelda Boards
BJ find a gif/pic so I can swap it out.

Even the good sis @KayLo! has completely droppedT Zelda and doesn't even bother stopping by the social threads.
bleß.




Either F smash was nerfed in range or f tilt was given a massive range buff.
I actually went to that ancient hit-box thread on the Brawl Zelda boards, but like... All the images are dead. :c

Also if you're talking about KayLo not visiting here it's because the terribad rap this place had previously. *CoughcoughA2ZOMGcoughcough*
 

Fuoujin 2

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Nov 12, 2014
Messages
134
That helps it because I get the sweetspotted Lightning kicks so much more consistant now. I think it's as good as brawl because of that.

I think it's exactly the same
Where can you find these gifs? I'd love to take a look at them.
As BJ said I can only find the Project M ones, a lot of which look the same to me but they might be pretty different.

Here's a video though
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3-R24V4LgM



R.I.P Brawl Zelda.
 
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