Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

[Deleted member]

I'm going to go through her entire moveset and list the changes I feel she would need to even become viable.

-slightly increased walking and dashing speed
-air speed increased by a noticeable amount
-slightly increased weight
Jab - faster startup, slightly bigger hitboxes
F-tilt - backwards KB at the speetspot for comboing, less end lag
Dash attack - slightly less endlag, slight damage increase on the sour spot
Up tilt - damage buff to 9%
D-tilt - damage buff to 8%

F-smash - Slightly less startup, hits CONNECT RELIABLY
D-smash - Slightly more range indicated by new magical graphics at her foot
U-smash - Reverted to Brawl version

Fair - reverted to Melee version
Bair - reverted to Melee version
Dair - slightly less end lag
U-air - less end lag, more KB
N-air - slightly larger hitboxes at her hands, hitboxes extend down the length of her body, 14% damage when all hits connect, less landing lag

Nayru's Love - larger horizontal hitbox, bring back Love Jumping

Farore's Wind - get rid of that stupid thing where she slides along the ground when she reappears after teleporting straight down onto the stage, allow her to move left or right immediately after reappearing in the air.

Phantom Slash - can store the charge by pressing shield, lower charge levels deal significantly more damage and KB, fully charged Phantom has more KB, deals heavy shield damage, and deals a single hit instead of two. The Phantom can take 20% damage before breaking.

Din's Fire - functions more like a normal projectile. NO FREEFALL, much less startup and end lag, Medium sized ball of fire shoots out of her hand and explodes a set distance away for medium damage and KB, larger hitbox than current version but has no sweetspot, has a weak hitbox while flying through the air that deals 5% damage.

Grab - slightly more range
D-throw - 12% damage, more reliably combos into Bair, Uair, and Nair at specific percents

There, I just fixed the character. Was that so hard Sakurai?

 

[Hyrule Candy]

Can we like petition Nintendo to buff Zelda?

 

[Hyrule Candy]

@SmasFromThePast She is viable tho. everyone is this iteration tbh

 

[Deleted member]

She really isn't. Zelda has a tendency to only get worse as time goes on, and in Smash4 the general concensus is that she is bad already. She has the same exact glaring weaknesses as always. The only straight buff she got is that Farore's has hilarious KO power and is much better for recovery. Too bad KOing a good opponent with it is very difficult, and everybody in this game has a good recovery.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I feel Zelda is the worst character in the game, but I beat Greninja today in roll glory so idc.

I look forward to last place on the tier list 50/50

 

[ZombieBran]

The worst in the game, I agree. Viable in the strictest sense of the word.

This game lacks much of the ridiculous free damage and flowchart matchups that Brawl had. Well unless you're like Diddy or Sheik.

 

[BJN39]

I suppose we can just relegate Zelda to fraud detector liek Melee.

 

[evmaxy54]

Farore's Wind - get rid of that stupid thing where she slides along the ground when she reappears after teleporting straight down onto the stage

Gonna stop you here & say that this slidy thingy she does really helps us recover onto the ledge when fighting on a stage with diagonal walls like Omega Arena Ferox & it makes ledge cancelling easier to do in the air. Plus, going straight down with FW really isn't exactly the smartest idea to begin with really :/

 

[Alacion]

Just get somebody like Rion to make gifs of Zelda's awful fsmash (et al.) and then post them on reddit and Sakurai's twitter.

 

[Hyrule Candy]

I feel Zelda is the worst character in the game, but I beat Greninja today in roll glory so idc.

I look forward to last place on the tier list 50/50

Im sure shes not the worst. her MUs against the top tiers kinda already bring her to the top of bottom. Shes probably low imo.

My dream Zelda

General
- Faster Speed
- Slightly Heavier

Standard attacks
- Reduce ending lag on dash attack

Tilts
- Give her Utilt true follow ups
- Make Ftilt kill as early as 100%
- Give her brawl Dtilt

Smashes
- Give her brawl Usmash
- Give her brawl Dsmash
- Make her Fsmash connect consistently

Aerials
- Increase Uair KB
- Reduce ending lag on bair/fair
- Give her brawl nair

Din's Fire
- Give weak hitbox when its traveling
- Increase range
- As fast as Din's flare
- Faster explosion upon release
- Reduce starting and ending lag

Nayru's Love
- Increase Active frames

Farore's Wind
- Less ending lag on reappearing

Phantom Slash
- Make it chargeable

ahhh done

 

[Fuoujin 2]

Oh @ Fuoujin 2 I forgot to ask you after we played. What did you think of my Zelda?

Your Zelda was fine, you shouldn't approach because none of it is safe but you don't really have a choice I guess.
And before you ask, yes Zelda is still awful and bottom tier.
You could 3 stock me 20 times in a row and I would know she's still garbage.

At least Zelda's more waifu material than anyone in Smash. More waifu than Rosalina, Samus and Palutena combined. :>>> #Edgy

Gotta watch out for dat Ganondorf though.

Well you can technically marry Lucina in her game so...

 

[Fuoujin 2]

I'm not gonna spend anytime trying to tell Candy that Zelda is bad cause I don't think it will go anywhere.
But since you think she's good you should go to some offline tournaments ASAP while the game is still new so you canhave some success before people learn how to shield Farore's!

 

[ZombieBran]

you shouldn't approach because none of it is safe but you don't really have a choice I guess.

Zelda.zip

 

[SBphiloz4]

Eww Lucina waifufegs.

I lost to a Rosalina player on For Glory because she dropped out of Fsmash. Then I used it again, and again she dropped out. At some point, I kinda cry internally that she's at 150% and you have literally no guarantee way to finish her off now.

Zelda's weird in that she likes her KOs premature. Almost like eating a rare and juicy steak. But when they start getting overcooked and become more and more well-done, it's actually harder to chew them off.

 

[ZombieBran]

Eww Lucina waifufegs.

I lost to a Rosalina player on For Glory because she dropped out of Fsmash. Then I used it again, and again she dropped out. At some point, I kinda cry internally that she's at 150% and you have literally no guarantee way to finish her off now.

Ftilt kills okayish.

 

[Deleted member]

Gonna stop you here & say that this slidy thingy she does really helps us recover onto the ledge when fighting on a stage with diagonal walls like Omega Arena Ferox & it makes ledge cancelling easier to do in the air. Plus, going straight down with FW really isn't exactly the smartest idea to begin with really :/

Its uses are extremely niche and lead to more self destructs than anything. It's just generally odd and leads to a feeling of a lack of control because in every other instance she reappears where you expect her to reappear - the direction you pointed. I'd trade what is most likely a silly oversight in the move's mechanics for a much more solid moveset anyday.

And if you really like it, there would always be custom moves for the option.

 

[Hyrule Candy]

When someone tells me that shes bottom tier

I never really use farores wind not counting the elevator. I still think shes just low but im just happy that u know, convincing me that Zelda is bad wouldn't go anywhere. Also I approach all the time with Zelda yet I actually win. I won a offline tournament with her once a week ago. @ Fuoujin 2 I would go to more tournaments but im 13 and can't drive, or have enough money to enter tournaments.

Ya know what, Fsmash only failed me 2 times out of all the times I used it in smash wii u

 

[SBphiloz4]

Ftilt kills okayish.

Aaaaand then I cry a river when the deadzone appears. ; w ;

 

[Deleted member]

When someone tells me that shes bottom tier

Exactly which characters do you think are worse than Zelda? And what exactly are her positive traits? She's supposed to be a defensive character, but she has little survivability thanks to being light, tall, and floaty. She's supposed to be a glass cannon, but she's slow, doesn't combo well, and her strongest KO moves are unreliable and/or difficult to hit with. She has two extremely laggy projectiles that are almost useless against anybody who has fought Zelda more than 5 times. She was unanimously thought to be one of the worst characters in Brawl, and she's almost exactly the same in Smash4 except for a buff to Farore's (and actually got nerfed in other areas.)

I'm glad you like the character so much, but there comes a time for every Zelda main when they have to realize that she sucks.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Ganondorf might be a bit worse than Zelda.
And until someone else pointed to it, I didn't notice maybe Charizard was quite bad, too (at least they are without customs, if you add them, Zelda is left far behind)

 

[evmaxy54]

Its uses are extremely niche and lead to more self destructs than anything. It's just generally odd and leads to a feeling of a lack of control because in every other instance she reappears where you expect her to reappear - the direction you pointed. I'd trade what is most likely a silly oversight in the move's mechanics for a much more solid moveset anyday.

And if you really like it, there would always be custom moves for the option.

Certainly the ledge cancelling is a complete gimmick & a very situational one at that which requires a good amount of studying of the stage for little payoff except being stylish.

Recovering on the other hand... not so much.
I believe that if we didn't have that slide, she'll have to recover like how she did in Brawl & that was not fun at all (as much as I love giving her **** in recent times, her recovery is so good in this game). And this outweighs SD'ing every so often IMO because I have no-one to blame but myself when I SD in this fashion.

 

[Phenomiracle]

Its uses are extremely niche and lead to more self destructs than anything. It's just generally odd and leads to a feeling of a lack of control because in every other instance she reappears where you expect her to reappear - the direction you pointed. I'd trade what is most likely a silly oversight in the move's mechanics for a much more solid moveset anyday.

I couldn't disagree with this anymore than I already do. The "slide mechanic" has drastically improved Zelda's recovery by allowing her to ride up walls. Jumping deep offstage for a gimp is no longer suicide with Zelda. This literally makes Zelda's recovery from one of the most difficult in Brawl to one of the absolute best.

I made a post earlier in this thread illustrating just how and why FW can bounce off the stage walls like a basketball, and most of those situations are entirely avoidable if you are aware of the angle of impact with the stage wall.

This mechanic is practically the only thing that's a massive, massive improvement from Brawl, and seeing how other characters' recoveries allow them to awkward ride up slanted stage walls for a recovery (Mario, Marcina, Ganondorf/Capt Falcon), this particular FW mechanic was most likely intentional.

Sakurai obviously wanted to avoid "recovery traps" where characters find themselves faceplanting the undersides of the side.

 

[Deleted member]

You both seem to be misinterpreting what I'm saying. Farore's should keep its current recovering capabilities if possible. The only thing that should change is how she slides along the floor when directing the move down onto a stage or platform. That is an unnecessary, odd mechanic.

 

[Hyrule Candy]

Exactly which characters do you think are worse than Zelda? And what exactly are her positive traits? She's supposed to be a defensive character, but she has little survivability thanks to being light, tall, and floaty. She's supposed to be a glass cannon, but she's slow, doesn't combo well, and her strongest KO moves are unreliable and/or difficult to hit with. She has two extremely laggy projectiles that are almost useless against anybody who has fought Zelda more than 5 times. She was unanimously thought to be one of the worst characters in Brawl, and she's almost exactly the same in Smash4 except for a buff to Farore's (and actually got nerfed in other areas.)

I'm glad you like the character so much, but there comes a time for every Zelda main when they have to realize that she sucks.

I think there are actually quite a few characters that are worst


Positive traits: great punishes, great offstage game, decent combo game, pretty good MUs

I never said that shes great, but I truly think shes a little over bottom. Ya know I think she has potential. She just needs to be discovered more. Im a really dedicated Zelda main. Like this smash I think everyones viable and the definition of bad in this game is different than previous games. This game bad just means not as good as the others, in brawl and melee bad was unviable, cant be used, just wut the word bad really means. Im sure well find something if we just look into her a little more.

 

[evmaxy54]

This literally makes Zelda's recovery from one of the most difficult in Brawl to one of the absolute best.

I wouldn't call it the one of the best since she can still be quite easy to edgeguard against because of that 1 frame vulnerability when she reappears, & although it isn't much at all, once more people know about this the more this will be exploited to all hell. :/

 

[Deleted member]

Link, Samus, Falco, Donkey Kong, and Wii Fit are definitely better than Zelda in my opinion.

 

[Phenomiracle]

You both seem to be misinterpreting what I'm saying. Farore's should keep its current recovering capabilities if possible. The only thing that should change is how she slides along the floor when directing the move down onto a stage or platform. That is an unnecessary, odd mechanic.

It's a consequence of the sliding mechanic.

Why Zelda unnecessarily travels the entire distance of the FW by sliding across platforms and stages is the very same reason FW slides up stage walls to successfully snap onto ledges.

If Sakurai removes the sliding mechanic, FW loses a huge chunk of its recovery ability.

 

[Phenomiracle]

I wouldn't call it the one of the best since she can still be quite easy to edgeguard against because of that 1 frame vulnerablity when she reappears, & once more people know about this the more this will be exploited to all hell. :/

It's still one of the best recoveries, in spite of that.

The vulnerability window is tiny in of itself and it's possible to simply surprise edgeguarders by directly FWing into them.

I agree though, it's a thoroughly ugly weakness. I've faced a douchebag Falcon who utilted and spiked me. He can go jump off a cliff.

 

[Deleted member]

Recovery in this game in general is a problem, what with the ledge snapping and the backwards ledge grabbing and the ledge stealing preventing edge hogging and the long ranged recoveries so many characters possess. If some of these issues were addressed, Zelda might not have to slide along the stage to have a decent enough recovery compared to the rest of the cast. The fact that she needs it currently is merely a symptom of other problems.

 

[Hyrule Candy]

Link, Samus, Falco, Donkey Kong, and Wii Fit are definitely better than Zelda in my opinion.

I KNOW Zelda has issues but Im certain shes not that bad. She has an advantage over Rosalina, diddy, and a lot more. To make it simple ill just say this: Shes a bad character but not to the point where shes bottom tier imo

 

[Phenomiracle]

I KNOW Zelda has issues but Im certain shes not that bad. She has an advantage over Rosalina, diddy, and a lot more. To make it simple ill just say this: Shes a bad character but not to the point where shes bottom tier imo

You're such a likeable person, I can't find in my heart to tell you why I think you're wrong to think that.

 

[evmaxy54]

It's still one of the best recoveries, in spite of that.

The vulnerability window is tiny in of itself and it's possible to simply surprise edgeguarders by directly FWing into them.

I agree though, it's a thoroughly ugly weakness. I've faced a douchebag Falcon who utilted and spiked me. He can go jump off a cliff.

It's OK Phenomiracle

It's all orge now...

 

[Deleted member]

As much as I'd like her to not be that bad, I can guarantee you that she is. I guess only time will convince you.

 

[Hyrule Candy]

oh thank you @ Phenomiracle I think instead of stating her flaws and such we find techs and stuff to improve since no more balance patches are gonna happen in the future. Even if shes on the bottom the only place to go is up. It just seems we focus on complaining about her than actually helping her metagame improve and advance

 

[Rion]

Firstly, what the bejingles did you do to @ Hyrule Candy . The sassy girl gif posting... I can only pray for our souls.

Secondly, I love how I have now become known as the unofficial Zelda gif master, mwahaha.

Seriously, don't be brainwashing Candy's brain with too much tumblr filth, okay? That would be cruel punishment.

 

[ZombieBran]

Everyone can do with some tumblr filth in their lives.

Recovery in this game in general is a problem, what with the ledge snapping and the backwards ledge grabbing and the ledge stealing preventing edge hogging and the long ranged recoveries so many characters possess. If some of these issues were addressed, Zelda might not have to slide along the stage to have a decent enough recovery compared to the rest of the cast. The fact that she needs it currently is merely a symptom of other problems.

THIS
The recoveries in this game are disgustingly good. Zelda's doesn't even stick out as amazing among them. And that's bad because FW is actually the only exceptional move Zelda has.

They'll never be changed with patches, so we need to have our awkward SDs every once in a while for the greater good of Zelda being able to actually recover.

 

[KayLo!]

Even the good sis @ KayLo! has completely droppedT Zelda and doesn't even bother stopping by the social threads.
bleß.

Lol nah, Zelda will always be my little redheaded step-main.

Also if you're talking about KayLo not visiting here it's because the terribad rap this place had previously. *CoughcoughA2ZOMGcoughcough*

Eh I haven't really touched any of the Smash 4 boards.... they all got bad reps tbh.

 

[BJN39]

@ KayLo! KayLoooooo! You should come around her more often! This place is the hottest hangout area in the SSB4 sub-forum these days. It's certainly better than it was...a little.

Earlier there were ups of 16 users here and a few guests as well.

 

[Hyrule Candy]

@ Rion haahah nah ill always be the same candy
Over winter break are you available for some matches?

Even on the current Japanese tier list shes higher than 7 characters and they have like no dedicated Zelda main. Ya know, no matter how many times you guys tell me shes awful and that shes trash, Ill always stick with her and she'll always seem low to me. I will never give her up

 

[ZombieBran]

Earlier there were ups of 16 users here and a few guests as well.

And at this point it's getting suspicious