Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

[Rickster]

Let's just make @Nairo play ALL of us and tell us what to do.

Kidding of course. But congrats on the tourney man!

 

[Fernosaur]

@XDanDan612 I'm back kiddo! If you wanna play I'll be around :D

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Not sure what to think. I think Zelda may be better than we think. I mean... LOOK AT GANONDORF. He was a punching bag at the competitive impressions thread and now, everyone there respects him as mid tier. It took time for players to realize that he is good in this game.

Maybe we're missing something here because by now, NJ players should know how to deal with Zelda since Nairo uses her quite frequently but he's still winning with Zelda or ranking at top 3 with her. Although, it makes sense if you say that Nairo is just a better player than almost everyone in the NJ scene but.... I don't know. Every time he wins or ranks well with Zelda, I'm thinking that we're SERIOUSLY missing something here

Well, I mean...I don't want to sound like Macchiato 2.0 but

What are her weaknesses? She has a very hard time dealing with pressure. Difficulty landing from the air / no options when she's above someone. A lot of landing/end lag on a few of her attacks. No approach options.

What are her strengths? Good combo game, amazing kill power (she's scary af with rage), an OOS kill move that kills at 70-80%, one of the best recoveries, a fairly decent edgeguarding game, and a good get off of me move. If I reaaalllly want to pull a @ Macchiato I can bring up that in a two stock metagame, being able to get the first KO early with the Elevator is really substantial. If you play smart and stay alive at 100 - 150% after the first kill, you can kill with the elevator at 20-50% depending on the character and your exact rage percent.

With customs on, she gets one of the best defensive moves in the game and possibly some other interesting things if Rejection ends up being worthwhile.

I think there's a chance we'll see her rise up to mid tier as the metagame evolves, but I can also see her issue with pressure and approaching being a major downfall that makes her stay low tier.

/endoptimistrant

 

[Lavani]

Although, it makes sense if you say that Nairo is just a better player than almost everyone in the NJ scene

If being a Nairo nuthugger is what it takes to make things make sense then I'm okay with that

We love you Nairo, you're the best!!!!

Spoiler

Real talk, I think y'all just need to stop associating "lower end of the tier list" with "unplayable garbage", this game isn't Melee/Brawl.

But really, grats on the tourney win Nairo.

 

[McKnightlíght]

I was out driving to pick up some groceries, and happened to notice pizza being delivered to a house.

A house that was on the same block as the Domino's it was delivered from.

man that house looks ghetto as hell how are they affording $2 delivery fees when they could just walk three houses down for carryout

It's easy. Spend less money on a house and more money on pizza! They are probably millionaires.

 

[Lavani]

It's easy. Spend less money on a house and more money on pizza! They are probably millionaires.

Man even if I was a millionaire I'd just walk the three houses to get the pizza myself, a little exercise isn't going to kill you.

 

[Fernosaur]

I think Zelda's problem is gonna be similar to Bowser's in the long run. She definitely has some options, and I actually think her MU against Sheik isn't as atrocious as people think due to Zelda's super early kill power and Sheik's being not so stellar. She also has some options against Rosalina because of how easy it is to make away with Luma (I don't think it's EVEN, though).

However, there's Diddy, and then there's Sonic, and THEN there's ZSS. No matter what you guys say, @ Gay Ginger can confirm that a good Diddy will be a terrible match up for Zelda because he doesn't really struggle killing her like Sheik does, and Zelda is ridic easy to grab in comparison to other characters. And let's not even talk about Sonic, because we know there's not much Zelda can do in that MU. Zamus is another pretty big issue, and once Olimar starts climbing up the ranks, bye bye Zelda.

The thing is, even if she does have some tools against two of the higher tiers, the rest of the top tiers really mess her up BADLY. That alone is enough to not make her a viable character in a tournament because she's gonna have atrocious MUs against some of the more used characters.

Real talk, I think y'all just need to stop associating "lower end of the tier list" with "unplayable garbage", this game isn't Melee/Brawl.

What I mean in short is this. The fact that she'll probably end up as a low tier is not because she's a waste of space, but because she'll have bad MUs against frequent characters in tourneys.

 

[Macchiato]

If being a Nairo nuthugger is what it takes to make things make sense then I'm okay with that

We love you Nairo, you're the best!!!!

Spoiler

Real talk, I think y'all just need to stop associating "lower end of the tier list" with "unplayable garbage", this game isn't Melee/Brawl.

But really, grats on the tourney win Nairo.

Well, I mean...I don't want to sound like Macchiato 2.0 but

What are her weaknesses? She has a very hard time dealing with pressure. Difficulty landing from the air / no options when she's above someone. A lot of landing/end lag on a few of her attacks. No approach options.

What are her strengths? Good combo game, amazing kill power (she's scary af with rage), an OOS kill move that kills at 70-80%, one of the best recoveries, a fairly decent edgeguarding game, and a good get off of me move. If I reaaalllly want to pull a @ Macchiato I can bring up that in a two stock metagame, being able to get the first KO early with the Elevator is really substantial. If you play smart and stay alive at 100 - 150% after the first kill, you can kill with the elevator at 20-50% depending on the character and your exact rage percent.

With customs on, she gets one of the best defensive moves in the game and possibly some other interesting things if Rejection ends up being worthwhile.

I think there's a chance we'll see her rise up to mid tier as the metagame evolves, but I can also see her issue with pressure and approaching being a major downfall that makes her stay low tier.

/endoptimistrant

My optimism is rubbing off

 

[McKnightlíght]

Man even if I was a millionaire I'd just walk the three houses to get the pizza myself, a little exercise isn't going to kill you.

They probably just have butlers do all of their exercise for them.

 

[Macchiato]

What I mean in short is this. The fact that she'll probably end up as a low tier is not because she's a waste of space, but because she'll have bad MUs against frequent characters in tourneys.

Then is everyone low tier except the top tiers?
Also I think she does decently against the top tiers except ZSS and Diddy but honestly almost everyone does. I've played many good sonics and the MU isn't that bad. Nayru's Love can stop the spindash. I think that this is the first game where she's not bottom.

 

[Lavani]

My optimism is rubbing off

Not really anything different than what I've been saying/feeling since release. Imo Zelda's a very likely candidate for bottom 5, but also imo people think that's a bigger deal than it really is.

Speaking of bottom 5, apparently people are coming around on Swordfighter now...?

 

[Berserker.]

I heard about AC U-air and some other stuff from ELord. Yeah, some people are coming around on SF now

 

[Macchiato]

Not really anything different than what I've been saying/feeling since release. Imo Zelda's a very likely candidate for bottom 5, but also imo people think that's a bigger deal than it really is.

Speaking of bottom 5, apparently people are coming around on Swordfighter now...?

I think the bottom 5 are Not counting swordfighter. I still see Zelda as a solid mid tier

 

[Berserker.]

I think the bottom 5 are

Oh my God. This is SO wrong. Like... Falco is solid mid tier or upper mid. His DPS is too good

 

[Soul.]

lol swordfighter

 

[「 Derk 」]

@ Macchiato I played around with Rejection a little and it's not a graphic glitch it actually does shift the windbox away from Rejection during love boosts or love jumps. This also may be that weird thing you were talking about where you didn't deal damage but still got the cape effect. The windbox seems to deal .5% damage (or something lower than 1%). It will either deal 0% when it hits or 1% damage.

Spoiler: Rejection stuffs

0% damage from the windbox.

1% damage from the windbox.

These were 2 separate Nayru's Rejections.

 

[Lavani]

Oh my God. This is SO wrong. Like... Falco is solid mid tier or upper mid. His DPS is too good

it's march

are you really still falling for these baits

 

[Nammy12]

it's march

are you really still falling for these baits

At this point I can't even tell if he's baiting or if he actually thinks that.

 

[Macchiato]

@ Macchiato I played around with Rejection a little and it's not a graphic glitch it actually does shift the windbox away from Rejection during love boosts or love jumps. This also may be that weird thing you were talking about where you didn't deal damage but still got the cape effect. The windbox seems to deal .5% damage (or something lower than 1%). It will either deal 0% when it hits or 1% damage.

Spoiler: Rejection stuffs

0% damage from the windbox.

1% damage from the windbox.

These were 2 separate Nayru's Rejections.

I wonder what this could be used for

At this point I can't even tell if he's baiting or if he actually thinks that.

I honestly think that

 

[Berserker.]

it's march

are you really still falling for these baits

I can't resist

 

[Macchiato]

I can't resist

Its honestly not a bait, I think hes not that good. His MUs against the top tiers are worst than Zeldas.

 

[Soul.]

"this guy is mid tier. he's decent"
"this one sucks lmao"
"this one is definitely top 10"
who cares about tiers.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

"this guy is mid tier. he's decent"
"this one sucks lmao"
"this one is definitely top 10"
who cares about tiers.

but what if tires don exits???

 

[Soul.]

but what if tires don exits???

vut wadt eef u can pley the demn gaem competitveley and not caer abaut tires?

 

[Lavani]

"this guy is mid tier. he's decent"
"this one sucks lmao"
"this one is definitely top 10"
who cares about tiers.

I think it can make for a fun topic

As far as picking mains though...tier lists don't take into account personal chemistry or enjoyment of the character, and I can guarantee I'd do better myself with Rosalina/Meta Knight/Greninja than any other character in the hypothetical top 30.

Basically just play who you like, because tier lists are (attempting to be) objective while character preference and compatibility is subjective.











But it's a law of nature that my character is better than your character.

 

[Berserker.]

If you're having good results and your character is like, mid/low tier, then tiers don't matter

Just go with who you want to play as

 

[Gay Ginger]

However, there's Diddy, and then there's Sonic, and THEN there's ZSS. No matter what you guys say, @ Gay Ginger can confirm that a good Diddy will be a terrible match up for Zelda because he doesn't really struggle killing her like Sheik does, and Zelda is ridic easy to grab in comparison to other characters. And let's not even talk about Sonic, because we know there's not much Zelda can do in that MU. Zamus is another pretty big issue, and once Olimar starts climbing up the ranks, bye bye Zelda.

The worst part about the Diddy match-up isn't even his grab shenanigans (those are still bad though) in my opinion. Dealing with his forward air as Zelda, however, is one of the most frustrating experiences I've had with Sm4sh.

And I'm absolutely dreading the day Olimar becomes popular.

Also @ Fernosaur because you loved that ANALBLEACH tag so much, I thought of you just now when I saw this http://ruinedchildhood.tumblr.com/post/112825030964

 

[Macchiato]

If I chose characters on tier lists, I would be maining Rosalina. I don't care, I main Zelda because I like playing her and I do well with her. Never take Tier Lists into account into maining a character. Just pick who you like

 

[McKnightlíght]

If I chose characters on tier lists, I would be maining Rosalina. I don't care, I main Zelda because I like playing her and I do well with her. Never take Tier Lists into account into maining a character. Just pick who you like

Plz ban 4 trolink

 

[Soul.]

hi i main Pikachu because I watched Brawl Pikachu videos.
hi i don't even know.
lol 100% even matchups.
lol "gets worse in custom metagame."
guys should i use diddy ?! come on hes the best character !

 

[Ffamran]

@ Ffamran Would you be up for some Falco dittos? I really want to learn how to use him and I guess by playing with you, you'd be able to give me some tips to playing him.

I only have a 3DS and I don't know if you have one; I do know you have a Wii U... er... I think you have a Wii U. Doesn't @ Berserker. have a Wii U? What about @ Macchiato ? Are you all right enough to mess with Falco and ditto FullMoon?

There's also this thread on the Falco boards: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

Not sure what to think. I think Zelda may be better than we think. I mean... LOOK AT GANONDORF. He was a punching bag at the competitive impressions thread and now, everyone there respects him as mid tier. It took time for players to realize that he is good in this game.

Maybe we're missing something here because by now, NJ players should know how to deal with Zelda since Nairo uses her quite frequently but he's still winning with Zelda or ranking at top 3 with her. Although, it makes sense if you say that Nairo is just a better player than almost everyone in the NJ scene but.... I don't know. Every time he wins or ranks well with Zelda, I'm thinking that we're SERIOUSLY missing something here

Meanwhile, Falco.

Anyway, does Palutena's first Jab - by that, I mean the first hit - transition into Dtilt well? Or any of her other tilts? Is it even useful along with Sheik's Jab 2 to Dtilt? I've been messing around with Jabs and I can pull of Falco's Jab 2 to Dtilt - it's slow compared to other Jab to tilts, Smashes, and grab -, Luigi's Jab to everything nonsense - I swear he can hit confirm with his Jab to Super Jump Punch -, Fox's Jab reset (to anything), and Triple D's Jab 2 to tilts.

I think Falco might be able to Jab 1 to whatever faster than Jab 2 to whatever, but I'm not sure and I only pulled off Pally's Jab to Dtilt and wondered about it.

Also, I was able to fight a good Wario who had an all right Pac-Man - it seemed like he didn't know what Pac-Man stuff to do -, a good Ganondorf, and a good, but campy and annoying Villager.

I met a Zelda today and Triple D's hurtboxes was a pain to deal with. Triple D is literally a free sweetspot and hit anything...

Robin's weird, especially since I don't fight Robin often and I don't really know what Robin can do. Also, the stupid Tomes and Levin Sword flying out and hitting you is BS. Anyway, I ended up timing out a match and getting close to several time outs as Sheik because I just don't know what to do against Robin and my Sheik is decent at best.

Oh, and I had a LAG match. It's like TAS, tool-assisted speedruns, except against you since LAG is a lag-assisted gameover. Fought a Kirby and I could have won, but it lagged horribly right before I lost. Fight's going fine and then BOOM!, Kirby does a Final Cutter and I'm in the middle of a jump. I don't think I could air dodge while the game slideshows its way, so I jump again to see if I can jump above and past it as Falco. I get hit and sent off-stage while lag continues to screw me over and by the time I can react, I'm already below the screen.

 

[Rizen]

Not sure what to think. I think Zelda may be better than we think. I mean... LOOK AT GANONDORF. He was a punching bag at the competitive impressions thread and now, everyone there respects him as mid tier. It took time for players to realize that he is good in this game.

Maybe we're missing something here because by now, NJ players should know how to deal with Zelda since Nairo uses her quite frequently but he's still winning with Zelda or ranking at top 3 with her. Although, it makes sense if you say that Nairo is just a better player than almost everyone in the NJ scene but.... I don't know. Every time he wins or ranks well with Zelda, I'm thinking that we're SERIOUSLY missing something here

To be fair @LordXav1er was PRed #2 in RI using only Link in Brawl and Link was still a bad character. Or look at Ed aka Scary winning with Zelda in Brawl. I used a low tier in over 10 live tourneys. People think 'low tier: they can't win' which isn't true, although it is much harder. Now in SSB4 the gap between tiers is much smaller than Brawl.
The point is some one doing well with a disadvantaged character doesn't mean they're a good character. Pretty much all characters in SSB4 stand a chance but let's not go nuts and say Zelda is much higher on the tier list. She can do well and win but I think most characters have an easier time winning. IMO.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

If any of us Zelda mains cared about tiers we'd be playing as Zelda in a ninja costume :^)

 

[Soul.]

Oh yeah speaking of stuff someone 3ds matches pls

 

[Berserker.]

I only have a 3DS and I don't know if you have one; I do know you have a Wii U... er... I think you have a Wii U. Doesn't @ Berserker. have a Wii U?

I think it's a running joke or a known fact here that I still don't have a Wii U

 

[SBphiloz4]

Congrats to Nairuuuuuuuuuuuuu~

MEANWHILE REMEMBER THAT ONLINE TOURNEY I WAS IN A FEW WEEKS AGO? DIDN'T DO GOOD OMG

http://smashboards.com/rankings/onslaught-ii-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u-singles.4885/event

Some guy that's 9th on this got bodied by me when I did friendlies with him, but he ranked higher than me in this tourney. ; w ;

 

[Ffamran]

Its honestly not a bait, I think hes not that good. His MUs against the top tiers are worst than Zeldas.

I still still think Falco does fine against Diddy of all people... Sonic too and Fox and Captain Falcon who either borderlines top tier or high tier. Maybe Sheik, but that's more of not a lot of Falcos have fought Sheik and not many of them are good and well-developed like Sheik. Oh well. Who knows, maybe Falco will end up being worst than Mii Swordfighter because Sakurai thinks he's OP and decides nerfing him is a good idea. I can't wait for a frame 60 Dair!

I think it's a running joke or a known fact here that I still don't have a Wii U

Really? Eh, I don't know.

From the Character Competitive Impressions thread.

QA is basically not an option against zelda as a apprach since naryus love out right beats it.

xSoul, the only Pikachu main here, and you sisters confirm or deny.

 

[Soul.]

xSoul, the only Pikachu main here, and you sisters confirm or deny.

who said that

 

[FullMoon]

I do have the 3DS version, but I would probably be extremely clumsy playing on the circle pad.

By the way, after playing some Mortal Kombat I can't help but mentally picture Greninja saying "GET OVER HERE" every time he hits with a Shifting Shuriken now.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

From the Character Competitive Impressions thread.

xSoul, the only Pikachu main here, and you sisters confirm or deny.

That's the equivalent of saying "Diddy's fair isn't an approach option because Zelda can shield it"