Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

[SBphiloz4]

Does Sheik do well against Diddy? I'd probably say it's an even match-up, but I could see it being in Diddy's favor because Sheik can't kill.

It's mostly even IMO, Diddy has hoo hah and the usual to kill, but Sheik can gimp Diddy relatively easily.

I personally think that Sheik has overall more favourable MUs than Diddy, which is why I consider her the best in the game. But Diddy gives a lot more trouble for some characters such as Tuna than Sheik could ever can, so it's hard to say who's better. In general, Diddy doesn't have as much favourable MUs, but are more polarized.

Diddy can't beat Villager though. :^)

 

[FullMoon]

I think I just played a Diddy Kong who intentionally crippled himself to not do any of the usual Diddy shenanigans like the Hoo Ha and abusing bananas.

Either that or I just didn't give him an opportunity to do either of those because yeah it was a pretty one-sided battle.

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

Dat double post
Thats one more pic added to the mod blackmail album

 

[Macchiato]

I'm really glad Aonuma doesn't pull this ****. Unlike Sakurai, Aonuma loves the Zelda community, all of the theories, and even actual feedback on his games! Zelda Wii U is a tribute to that! Aonuma even loves trolling, as it was seen with Link being a girl/Link in Zelda Wii U not being Link. But he doesn't take it too far, like ****ing Sakurai with Ridley. I'm not a fan of Ridley, but damn Sakurai took that way too far.
Sakurai, Zelda is the best character you are just playing the game wrong! Everyone should play FFA's with items on high and only play on the Wily's Castle Stage! Also, **** you competitive people!
Aonuma: Alright.... I attest that Skyward Sword wasn't as fantastic as it hoped... It was a great game, but I see that the next game needs more improvement. Ok fans, I am going to make exploration a key factor in the next game, and I will revisit the series itself as I understand it has gotten a bit stale! As I show the game off, provide your input! I am very interested to see your responses, on both Hyrule Warriors and what we have shown off on Zelda Wii U! Oh, you thought Hyrule Warrior's cutscenes were amazing? Well, we are just going to have to try to be even better than Hyrule Warriors!
Sakurai: ZOMG cutscenes were leaked on internet, let's just cut them.
...
I think I proved my point.
All hail the great overlord Aonuma!

No, Ganondorf is a lot better than you think. A lot of Ganondorfs believe that he is around the 27th best character. Unlike Zelda, we have won a variety of tournaments, and have at least done well on tournaments.

We're doing well in tournaments too sis. Our optimism could use work though. That's why I'm here

 

[Lorde]

It's mostly even IMO, Diddy has hoo hah and the usual to kill, but Sheik can gimp Diddy relatively easily.

I personally think that Sheik has overall more favourable MUs than Diddy, which is why I consider her the best in the game. But Diddy gives a lot more trouble for some characters such as Tuna than Sheik could ever can, so it's hard to say who's better. In general, Diddy doesn't have as much favourable MUs, but are more polarized.

Diddy can't beat Villager though. :^)

Ty sis, that's what I figured.
Idk who I'd say is the best. I'd probably say Diddy because I use Sheik sometimes and don't want to feel like a tier *****.

In the same vein, who does Sheik lose to (or what are her toughest match-ups)?

 

[Shrokatii]

Anyone wanna do some matches on 3ds? For Glory is getting tedious

 

[Locke 06]

How are customs Samus by the way? I heard she's got some really good set of customs back in the early days of Smash 3DS but I haven't heard much about them now

They're fun, but can make her less of a mind game character. Dense charge shot is ridiculous as a stage control/zoning tool; you can throw it out and try and force your opponent into it. It's stronger too, but because it moves so slowly it's not the punish tool like default is. Melee charge shot... Not really sure what the dev team was thinking.

I'm quite partial to default missiles (except in MU's where they don't matter), but slow missiles are insane as a "wade through this wall of missiles" and you can use them to help you approach. Less damage, but who cares? Fast missiles I haven't really tried out yet, but I think super missiles and homing missiles travel at the same speed. I like default because you can poke at their habits and follow up with a charge shot after enough conditioning. Also, they're designed to be one of the few projectiles that cannot be power shielded well due to homing & super missile timing variation and the shield damage.

Mega bomb >>>>default>slip in my opinion. Mega bomb is so good and it actually does meaningful damage/can KO. You can do something dumb risky and have it cover your endlag. The downside is that it takes longer to detonate and you can only have 1 out at a time meaning you lose the bomb jumping, but you still get to use the morph ball hop and bomb jumping sucks anyway. Slip bombs have been hyped a lot, since they trip and meteor on contact, but they're so small, don't stay out like the other bombs, and you lose the horizontal mobility that the normal bombs grant.

Apex screw attack is too slow (f15) and she needs her one OOS option. Screw rush could be good though, but I haven't given it much time or really remember much about it.

I run default + mega bomb mostly with my other sets having being variations of that with default bombs, slow missile, and/or the slow charge shot. It's more of a play style preference in that if I wanted to zone, I'd just play Mega Man.

I do think they increase her viability by a lot. A lot of characters don't care about missiles at all, so slow missiles help a ton.

 

[Berserker.]

Dat double post
Thats one more pic added to the mod blackmail album

You little---

Diddy can't beat Villager though. :^)

Eh. Diddy still beats Villager even without the banana in play. His moveset is just too good but it's probably just a +1 for Diddy (slight advantage).

 

[Furret]

So I heard in an article Sakurai says that the strongest characters are

pls, also sakurai must play a lot of

I like the version where someone had him with the melee opening for this
found it

good times

 

[Locke 06]

Eh. Diddy still beats Villager even without the banana in play. His moveset is just too good but it's probably just a +1 for Diddy (slight advantage).

Agreed. I think a lot of diddys have consciously practiced that MU to avoid pocket villagers because of that publicity. Diddy's banana does nothing to Mega Man, but it still feels slightly in Diddy's favor due to his stupid good damage output.

 

[SBphiloz4]

Since a lot of us are saying thaT beats , a definite high tier threat, is Zelda still the worst in the game?

It's hard to say for me because we at least have some nice favourable MUs in this game compared to Brawl, but I mean a bottom tier character can still be bottom even with a good MU against a top tier.

Take Hugo (SO BAD LOL) vs. Yun (easy Top 10 material) in USF4.

 

[Soul.]

Oh yeah about Diddy vs. Pika, it may be just like Brawl MK and Pikachu MU. I dunno. Diddy has more range on his moves, such as FAir. That thing ignores Thunder Jolt. Then Hoo Hah is a thing. Then Pikachu can avoid getting hit with QA. Then the usual stuff happens. Then Pika punishes with usmash. Then Diddy UAirs.
edit: Forgot to mention that Jolts destroy Diddy's bananas but that's... eh.

 

[warionumbah2]

How he does against high tiers imo

Spoiler

40:60/35:65
55:45?
55:45
45:55/50:50???
45:55/40:60?
55:45
55:45
55:45
50:50
50:50
50:50
50:50
60:40
60:40
55:45
60:40
50:50
55:45

? Haven't come across a good Shulk/Frog/Wario and i doubt i ever will in my competitive scene that is, Pac-Man i rarely see and i've seen no Peach close to Drk.Peach who is imo the best Peach plus i rarely come across her anyway. These guys are like in terms of rarity. Thoughts?

 

[Furret]

How he does against high tiers imo

Spoiler

40:60/35:65
55:45?
55:45
45:55/50:50???
45:55/40:60?
55:45
55:45
55:45
50:50
50:50
50:50
50:50
60:40
60:40
55:45
60:40
50:50
55:45

? Haven't come across a good Shulk/Frog/Wario and i doubt i ever will in my competitive scene that is, Pac-Man i rarely see and i've seen no Peach close to Drk.Peach who is imo the best Peach plus i rarely come across her anyway. These guys are like in terms of rarity. Thoughts?

But I don't think pit is high tier though...

 

[warionumbah2]

But I don't think pit is high tier though...

You can pretend he isn't there higglebottom.

His MU's are too good to be true, what character has a huge advantage against him? Same with Dark Pit.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Since a lot of us are saying thaT beats , a definite high tier threat, is Zelda still the worst in the game?

It's hard to say for me because we at least have some nice favourable MUs in this game compared to Brawl, but I mean a bottom tier character can still be bottom even with a good MU against a top tier.

Take Hugo (SO BAD LOL) vs. Yun (easy Top 10 material) in USF4.

/turns into Macchiato

I honestly feel like we're underestimating Zelda. She still sucks, but here's the thing. This game is a lot more balanced, so her horrible matchups aren't like the Brawl MK MU. Even if she is the worst, she isn't unusable. I'm fairly confident that she's better than at the least.

 

[Locke 06]

Have you played the MK/MM matchup? In my head it's much worse... Like... really bad worse. I know he needs to get him in the air and has poor range to do so... so maybe I'm overestimating MK's neutral.

 

[Soul.]

/turns into Macchiato

I honestly feel like we're underestimating Zelda. She still sucks, but here's the thing. This game is a lot more balanced, so her horrible matchups aren't like the Brawl MK MU. Even if she is the worst, she isn't unusable. I'm fairly confident that she's better than at the least.

Nah those 4 characters you just mentioned are better than Zelda, especially with customs.
It's a tradition to have her in the bottom

 

[SBphiloz4]

I've been trash talking about our queen on my Smash region's Facebook group for a while now (they're labeling me as the pessimist of the region hahaha), and of course I always say that she isn't great here as well. Even though I say she's the worst (other than , what even happened to it?), deep down somewhere in me, I know that I think Zelda isn't the worst in the game.

But I'm having a bit of difficulty labeling characters worse than her so far. ; w ;

 

[warionumbah2]

Have you played the MK/MM matchup? In my head it's much worse... Like... really bad worse. I know he needs to get him in the air and has poor range to do so... so maybe I'm overestimating MK's neutral.

Probably worse on Castle Seige, no it is worse for MM on that stage. But it really isn't that bad, pellets stop MK from dashing in sometimes, Up smash OOS can kill a lightweight like MK at decent percents, his a fast faller so he can punish a missed shuttle loop with his uppercut.

With customs i might say its more inMK's favor since High Speed Drill kills your zoning capability. MM can hold his own i think you're exaggerating how badly MK can bumrush him(its true).

Geez man, right in the feelings.

I don't consider input lag games as real games. Greninja is a precise character like MK any sort of lag can mess your follows up/kill setups.

Well according to our MU discussion, Greninja seems like a candidate for having an advantage over Pit. I particularly feel it's even but -shrug-

I mean anything over 55:45.

 

[FullMoon]

? Haven't come across a good Frog

Geez man, right in the feelings.

You can pretend he isn't there higglebottom.

His MU's are too good to be true, what character has a huge advantage against him? Same with Dark Pit.

Well according to our MU discussion, Greninja seems like a candidate for having an advantage over Pit. I particularly feel it's even but -shrug-

 

[Soul.]

Are the Pits high tier material or mid tier. Their neutral is apparently pretty good and so is their grab game with dthrow > aerial, fthrow for KOs, bthrow to set up arrow gimps and lol up throw.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

You little---

Eh. Diddy still beats Villager even without the banana in play. His moveset is just too good but it's probably just a +1 for Diddy (slight advantage).

Good thing I'm a villager main then.

How he does against high tiers imo

Spoiler

40:60/35:65
55:45?
55:45
45:55/50:50???
45:55/40:60?
55:45
55:45
55:45
50:50
50:50
50:50
50:50
60:40
60:40
55:45
60:40
50:50
55:45

? Haven't come across a good Shulk/Frog/Wario and i doubt i ever will in my competitive scene that is, Pac-Man i rarely see and i've seen no Peach close to Drk.Peach who is imo the best Peach plus i rarely come across her anyway. These guys are like in terms of rarity. Thoughts?

I have two questions. So the left number is meta knight correct? Why do you think he beats villager? (or if it's the opposite, why do you think he loses?)

 

[Macchiato]

Since a lot of us are saying thaT beats , a definite high tier threat, is Zelda still the worst in the game?

It's hard to say for me because we at least have some nice favourable MUs in this game compared to Brawl, but I mean a bottom tier character can still be bottom even with a good MU against a top tier.

Take Hugo (SO BAD LOL) vs. Yun (easy Top 10 material) in USF4.

She never was the worst in the game •_•

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

I never actually faced a zelda in my time playing the game. I'm free right now so if anyone wants to show me her I would be up for it.

 

[Locke 06]

That's really reassuring. I've been secretly worried about the MK matchup since the game came out. If Mega's worst matchup is Sheik, I think he's got a really nice spread. Sheik, IMO, can't be worse than 65-35 which is totally doable.

Who're Zelda's worst MU's?

 

[Lozjam]

/turns into Macchiato

I honestly feel like we're underestimating Zelda. She still sucks, but here's the thing. This game is a lot more balanced, so her horrible matchups aren't like the Brawl MK MU. Even if she is the worst, she isn't unusable. I'm fairly confident that she's better than at the least.

Nice joke, 10/10!
Ganondorf has a lot better matchups than Zelda, plus he has better aerials(Uair is all he really needs, but Bair, Nair, and Fair are increasingly useful and they have less Landing lag than most of Zelda's Aerials, and all of these options kill extremely easily), he has smashes that you don't fall out of, and Ganondorf has supreme chains with the Gerudo than can last 0-Death with someone with good mindgames. Not only that, but Ganondorf has terrific range from his tilts, and they kill early as well.

 

[Shrokatii]

I never actually faced a zelda in my time playing the game. I'm free right now so if anyone wants to show me her I would be up for it.

I would. But I have to eat. I also only have the 3ds version. I can go ahead and add ya though if you have it

 

[Berserker.]

But I don't think pit is high tier though...

He's like Mario in terms of match up spreads. There aren't any characters in the game that curb stomp Pit but Pit doesn't annihilate anyone either. He has good poking tools, great aerials, top 10/15 ground game, he's basically a jack of all trades. Just to add icing on the cake, he's got good representation from Nairu.

On the topic about Zelda, I don't think she's the worst. There are those characters that are DEFINITELY worse than her () and those characters that are possibly worse than her ()

 

[Soul.]

Zelda's worst MUs:
every top tier

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

He's like Mario in terms of match up spreads. There aren't any characters in the game that curb stomp Pit but Pit doesn't annihilate anyone either. He has good poking tools, great aerials, top 10/15 ground game, he's basically a jack of all trades. Just to add icing on the cake, he's got good representation from Nairu.

On the topic about Zelda, I don't think she's the worst. There are those characters that are DEFINITELY worse than her ()

You know, I once heard from a youtuber during the ESRB leak that Bowser jr looked like a Diddy Kong clone.

Bet he wish he was one now.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Zelda's worst MUs:
every character

This is more accurate

Nice joke, 10/10!
Ganondorf has a lot better matchups than Zelda, plus he has better aerials(Uair is all he really needs, but Bair, Nair, and Fair are increasingly useful and they have less Landing lag than most of Zelda's Aerials, and all of these options kill extremely easily), he has smashes that you don't fall out of, and Ganondorf has supreme chains with the Gerudo than can last 0-Death with someone with good mindgames. Not only that, but Ganondorf has terrific range from his tilts, and they kill early as well.

Doesn't he rely completely on reads except for jab and Flame Choke?

 

[SBphiloz4]

Who're Zelda's worst MU's?

IMO
(THE ABSOLUTE WORST)
(More manageable, but you have to play VERY WELL)
(Mostly walk all over Zelda, but have exploitable traits)
(to a lesser extent, but definitely manageable)

 

[Macchiato]

I never actually faced a zelda in my time playing the game. I'm free right now so if anyone wants to show me her I would be up for it.

Add me sis

 

[warionumbah2]

I have two questions. So the left number is meta knight correct? Why do you think he beats villager? (or if it's the opposite, why do you think he loses?)

Short hop slingshots more times than not whiff due to MK's small hurtbox, MK can easily zone break him using his speed and DA. Juggles cannot be escaped as his nair gets beaten by MK's uair. MK's ground game is too good he always has a way of getting in with little effort, his dash attack doesn't stop even when touching shields.

Off stage is hilarious i can stage spike Villager on Battlefield and he'll still make back, i actually said once to a MK user that dair sucks off stage but its extremely useful on Villager. One dair pops 2 balloons, Villagers bowling ball and tree on the ledge is useless against teleporting characters and going off stage against MK is risky anyway.

MK has the edge on the ground and off stage, shuttle loop can kill Villager pretty early as well as other kill moves that can be set up on the go. Then there's the fact that MK literally has no disadvantage state, Villagers best bet is to throw out nairs in neutral to keep MK out since the MK user will be going full aggro(which is rare) or camp outside his range(preferably mid range).

Customs is hella gay tho, can't gimp him and his tree looks stupid. Would love to get exp against custom villager.

 

[Soul.]

Who cares about tiers. Use the character you want to use. They don't really matter on this balanced game.

This is more accurate

Doesn't he rely completely on reads except for jab and Flame Choke?

Oh yeah, that. Truly, it does.
Also Ganon is a 100% read character.

 

[Lozjam]

This is more accurate

Doesn't he rely completely on reads except for jab and Flame Choke?

Ummm no.........
All of Ganondorfs aerials are extremely fast, his tilts are fast as well, and they all kill. It has been a while since I have played Smash, but why don't we play a few rounds and I can show you the power of Ganondorf!
Please send me a FR at "Lozjam"

 

[Deleted member]

Ummm no.........
All of Ganondorfs aerials are extremely fast, his tilts are fast as well, and they all kill. It has been a while since I have played Smash, but why don't we play a few rounds and I can show you the power of Ganondorf!
Please send me a FR at "Lozjam"

I wouldn't say that his Dair or Fair are really "fast" at all tbh.

 

[Berserker.]

This is just my opinion on how Shulk fares against the top and high tiers. Not in order because I'm sleepy as **** right now

Spoiler

-1
-1
-2
-2
+0
+0
-1
(??)
(??)
(??)
+2
(??)
+0
+1
+1
+0
+1

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Ummm no.........
All of Ganondorfs aerials are extremely fast, his tilts are fast as well, and they all kill. It has been a while since I have played Smash, but why don't we play a few rounds and I can show you the power of Ganondorf!
Please send me a FR at "Lozjam"

Can't play rn, but I'll reconsider my stance on him.