Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

[SBphiloz4]

My biggest concerns for Luigi being considered a top tier threat is the fact that although his combo game and aerial combat is very good, his recovery is just plain awful, and he has quite of bit of trouble reliably killing an opponent. He IS the third most used character in the scene iirc, but only time will tell if his glaring flaws will push him back like what happened to Falcon in Melee.

Also, IMO, he's at best 55:45 against trash tier , so that's another flaw. :^)

And to add more edge to this discussion, I'm honestly not sure why you gorls are putting Dark Pit in the same tier as Pit. DPit's arrows are so much worse, and Pit can counterpick low ceiling stages and do better at them because of his SideB. :/

 

[Berserker.]

I decided to put DDD in D tier because I coin flipped

Villager is surprisingly not that high because he's a counterpick character at best

 

[TTTTTsd]

I can't make an entire tier list not because of main bias but because I don't feel comfortable placing chars I'm not familiar with. The one I am most familiar with is the good Doctor so I can only really talk about where HE should go in relation lol. It's a resigned fate but I'm not super great at estimating other characters and how viable they are without labbing and learning them somewhat.

Luigi has really easy reliable kill setups including D-Throw -> Bair, D-Throw EMPTYJUMP Up+B (which is a mixup if they think they can airdodge an aerial cause you dropped, and yes it's scummy) and D-Throw true combos into Cyclone at like 125% and higher which kills most chars off the top. He has kill setups off of his best grab, easily. He doesn't really have problems killing at all, he also has the same USmash as Mario (slightly worse for killing but still has head invul and perfect pivot makes it amazing) so there's that as well.

Since tier lists assume optimal char usage I am going to say that with jumpless Cyclone Luigi's recovery is not awful either. It's not even his combo game that makes him mostly good, it's how reliable and easy to set up it is, you never really can be positive you have a solid LEAD vs. him, and his options are generally reliable. He also has an amazing jab too.

 

[warionumbah2]

Dr Mario = Clone of a character with stupid frame data(in a good way) mobility kills him though. If he had the same running speed i'd actually consider him a threat.

Dark Pit = Worse than Pit in every way, although his electro shock is useful against Luma and Little Mac.

Lucina = Doc and DP are clones of 'good' characters but she isn't, Marth got nerfed hard and they made her even worse. MU that are 50:50 will most likely drop to 45:55 so everytime i see "she should be on the same tier as Marth" i laugh and cry.

Mewtwo = Tall and Light...he's jail bait for MK.

 

[TTTTTsd]

The thing about Dark Pit is that while he's undeniably worse, he's not worse enough to be a tier lower or anything besides marginally lower than Pit. His options are still mostly the same, and all of his frame data and movement is the same. Arrows give Pit an edge but Dark Pit is barely different enough to warrant not being around where Pit is IMO.

Doc is a character who I believe skirts in the "barely viable BUT viable" tier without customs, not on a national level but on a regional level, he just BARELY skirts by. Of course with customs it's an entirely different story but, assuming no customs, he just barely makes the cut thanks to Mario's frame data and his punish game + Doc Tornado, without customs it is easily Doc's best move and it is what helps keep him remotely viable.

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

I can't really see Tink above Link in tier lists
When I get hit by Link's projectiles, I'm wary about how I'm moving from there in case Link swats me with Fair/Uair/Dash Attack, etc. Tink doesn't have that anymore (Lack of meat in the attacks he used to sync with his specials compared to Brawl). I guess Sm4sh devs remembered that Tink's supposed to be the faster, weaker swordsman of the two, and that's a bad thing for Tink. I probably don't know what I'm talking about

My biggest concerns for Luigi being considered a top tier threat is the fact that although his combo game and aerial combat is very good, his recovery is just plain awful, and he has quite of bit of trouble reliably killing an opponent. He IS the third most used character in the scene iirc, but only time will tell if his glaring flaws will push him back like what happened to Falcon in Melee.

Also, IMO, he's at best 55:45 against trash tier , so that's another flaw. :^)

And to add more edge to this discussion, I'm honestly not sure why you gorls are putting Dark Pit in the same tier as Pit. DPit's arrows are so much worse, and Pit can counterpick low ceiling stages and do better at them because of his SideB. :/

I'd say his combo game is pretty... fair

 

[SBphiloz4]

I'd say his [] combo game is pretty... fair

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

But I like it here

 

[TTTTTsd]

But yeah that's like all I gotta say about Luigi. As someone who subs him (I play Kirby too but they don't let you fit in chars in your thing D: ) he really doesn't lack kill setups at this point in the meta. He's just....dumb.

It's just more proof that the Year of Luigi never really ended. (This is probably the first game Luigi is top/high tier to the extent that he is here, wow)

 

[SBphiloz4]

I'm having a chat with a guy who's saying that Zelda isn't the worst character in the game, and she can use lightning kicks and Farore's to alleviate aerial pressure.

Umm.... no?

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

I'm having a chat with a guy who's saying that Zelda isn't the worst character in the game, and she can use lightning kicks and Farore's to alleviate aerial pressure.

Umm.... no?

Of course not , it's since you can easily DI out of his uair

 

[Soul.]

Pikachu da bess tho.
Tink is bad. If he was the same as Brawl with SHDBA, Quickdrawing and better Bombs he would be better
Link = lol scrubmaster™

 

[Nairo]

Bruh.

It's cool, you're like most college students/young people in general.

It's more how these professors are adamantly shoving their ideologies down people's throats, bashing people who disagree with them (including students), and whatnot. Oh, and I meant what I said: "Democrat-worshiping." The type who believe Obama and the establishment Democrats (Reid, Pelosi) are the greatest things since sliced bread and that all Republicans are the personifications of Satan.

I wasn't talking about genuine liberals, many of whom are open and honest about their concerns with the policies of the current administration.

Oh, and last time I took that test, I think I scored right about here.

@ Nairo my dude calling Zelda the worst character in the game, I c u m8

Yeah yeah you were joking.

I'm confused!

 

[Lavani]

I'm having a chat with a guy who's saying that Zelda isn't the worst character in the game, and she can use lightning kicks and Farore's to alleviate aerial pressure.

Umm.... no?

She can use Farore's to alleviate aerial pressure by teleporting offstage to get away from it.

 

[BJN39]

I'm confused!

If you're on the Zelda social and NOT confused, then you're probably not actually on the Zelda social.

 

[evmaxy54]

I'm confused!

Just smile & nod sis. Like so:

 

[Aunt Jemima]

What's with this avatar update jeez

They're too big

 

[Nairo]

Dr Mario = Clone of a character with stupid frame data(in a good way) mobility kills him though. If he had the same running speed i'd actually consider him a threat.

Dark Pit = Worse than Pit in every way, although his electro shock is useful against Luma and Little Mac.

Lucina = Doc and DP are clones of 'good' characters but she isn't, Marth got nerfed hard and they made her even worse. MU that are 50:50 will most likely drop to 45:55 so everytime i see "she should be on the same tier as Marth" i laugh and cry.

Mewtwo = Tall and Light...he's jail bait for MK.

You mean his electroshock is useful against luma little mac and most characters with a vertical recovery that you can go off stage after the hit to potentially gimp them.

I'm having a chat with a guy who's saying that Zelda isn't the worst character in the game, and she can use lightning kicks and Farore's to alleviate aerial pressure.

Umm.... no?

Lol it is nice to come in here once in a while to see some type of zelda bashing! (not necessary this post but other posts by you lolol)

 

[Soul.]

What's with this avatar update jeez

They're too big

the previous size was Ridley size. by Ridley size i mean small

 

[Lavani]

Someone explain me why do people think Dedede is bottom tier material

Is there a reason you think he should be better than the other heavies?

Also I guess since lists happened again I will drop in my updated one.

- Customs off, because I have too little experience with customs and little to go off of
- Miis excluded since they're usually restricted needlessly in customs off tournaments, and 1111 average size miis are booty.

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:

Some notes:
- is sleeper top tier. Felt this way since release, feelings have not changed.
- is mostly marginally worse than in the majority of matchups, but the benefits of Electroshock in certain matchups such as Rosalina that actually have a noticeable impact lead me to feel he's the "better" character, if only slightly. With customs on I see him as the better character in general, but that's neither here nor there.
- Take C and D tier orderings with a grain of salt, but there is an attempt at them being ordered.

 

[FullMoon]

I dunno about Megaman, he is very good at keeping the opponent out, but outside of Charge Shot, all of his kill moves require him to get close to the opponent and I don't think Megaman really wants to have the opponent close to him most of the time.

Plus, he doesn't really have much to deal with people attacking him from below. I'm not very sure how to feel about him.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Is there a reason you think he should be better than the other heavies?

Also I guess since lists happened again I will drop in my updated one.

- Customs off, because I have too little experience with customs and little to go off of
- Miis excluded since they're usually restricted needlessly in customs off tournaments, and 1111 average size miis are booty.

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:

Some notes:
- is sleeper top tier. Felt this way since release, feelings have not changed.
- is mostly marginally worse than in the majority of matchups, but the benefits of Electroshock in certain matchups such as Rosalina that actually have a noticeable impact lead me to feel he's the "better" character, if only slightly. With customs on I see him as the better character in general, but that's neither here nor there.
- Take C and D tier orderings with a grain of salt, but there is an attempt at them being ordered.

How come default Ganon is so high? I'm not trying to disprove you or anything, I'm just genuinely curious

 

[Soul.]

Is there a reason you think he should be better than the other heavies?

Also I guess since lists happened again I will drop in my updated one.

- Customs off, because I have too little experience with customs and little to go off of
- Miis excluded since they're usually restricted needlessly in customs off tournaments, and 1111 average size miis are booty.

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:

Some notes:
- is sleeper top tier. Felt this way since release, feelings have not changed.
- is mostly marginally worse than in the majority of matchups, but the benefits of Electroshock in certain matchups such as Rosalina that actually have a noticeable impact lead me to feel he's the "better" character, if only slightly. With customs on I see him as the better character in general, but that's neither here nor there.
- Take C and D tier orderings with a grain of salt, but there is an attempt at them being ordered.

If Gordo Throw had priority he would be a lot better. He's mid/low mid tier imo.
Dthrow > fair > nair > utilt works if the opponent doesn't DI or something.

edit: I feel like some are underestimating him

 

[Lavani]

I dunno about Megaman, he is very good at keeping the opponent out, but outside of Charge Shot, all of his kill moves require him to get close to the opponent and I don't think Megaman really wants to have the opponent close to him most of the time.

Plus, he doesn't really have much to deal with people attacking him from below. I'm not very sure how to feel about him.

Eh, I don't think it's that much of a concern. A lot of his close range kill moves are quick too (6f utilt with invincibility, 8f disjointed usmash that can be used OoS and covers crossups, 4f disjointed bair).

"No answers to being attacked from below" is a problem for a lot of characters, so I don't consider it to be a viability-hurting weakness.

How come default Ganon is so high? I'm not trying to disprove you or anything, I'm just genuinely curious

- He outranges a lot of characters, the range on things like his dtilt and nair is actually ridiculous
- Reward on hit is massive, and he kills early. You can never count Ganondorf out, because all it takes is a couple of reads for him to run a game back.
- Like I said, C tier is kind of unorganized, I could see him lower (or maybe higher) but I feel good about his placement in relation to the other heavyweights.

If Gordo Throw had priority he would be a lot better. He's mid/low mid tier imo.
Dthrow > fair > nair > utilt works if the opponent doesn't DI or something.

edit: I feel like some are underestimating him

My short answer is that he is forced to approach against a lot of characters and has no approach to speak of, and his reward on hit is less than that of other heavyweights. This is a pretty good post about Dedede.

 

[Cenizas]

Does anyone have a link to the political compass?

Anyway, MAH TIER LIST (w/ customs but it probably doesn't matter because idk what I'm doing but whatever) :

 

[Soul.]

My short answer is that he is forced to approach against a lot of characters and has no approach to speak of, and his reward on hit is less than that of other heavyweights. This is a pretty good post about Dedede.

he's bad but has top 3 edgeguarding
lol

 

[SBphiloz4]

Nairo "approves" of my bashing.

People in my region's Facebook group is very salty about my bashing.

I'm slowly becoming the villain now. :^)

 

[Locuan]

The mop is definitely cleaning up everyone's mess on @ Lavani 's list.

 

[FullMoon]

Eh, I don't think it's that much of a concern. A lot of his close range kill moves are quick too (6f utilt with invincibility, 8f disjointed usmash that can be used OoS and covers crossups, 4f disjointed bair).

"No answers to being attacked from below" is a problem for a lot of characters, so I don't consider it to be a viability-hurting weakness.

I suppose, sweetspotting utilt can be a bit tough though, and I thought Up-Smash was fairly weak? B-air is legit though. I haven't seen much of Megaman to be honest, so I'm not quite sure where I'd place him.

On another note,

I love Tomodachi Life.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I was gonna snap at Lavani with the fury of a thousand suns but then I read "Take C tier's organization with a grain of salt" and silently stepped back. I could elaborate but I'll hold the salt =V

 

[Lavani]

Does anyone have a link to the political compass?

Yo. Site's down though, maybe we killed it with our traffic overload :^(

Also Dedede is on your list twice lol

he's bad but has top 3 edgeguarding
lol

Pretty much.

I should note though that Dedede's a character with a lot of polarized matchups; if his opponent doesn't have a strong camp game, it's probably even. If he's forcing the approach, he probably wins, because his tools to keep an opponent out are terrific. The problem is a lot of characters don't mind simply not going in to begin with against him. If you tiered him with the mindset that you'd be using a secondary for his bad matchups, he'd be a fair bit higher.

I was gonna snap at Lavani with the fury of a thousand suns but then I read "Take C tier's organization with a grain of salt" and silently stepped back. I could elaborate but I'll hold the salt =V

You should do it anyway. I was expecting comments on Doc (and probably other things), and it'd be a good learning experience to hear things from people with experience with the character, because I could see him being higher but couldn't really defend it if asked why.

I will preface it by saying I know about how crazy upB and nado are, though.

 

[evmaxy54]

@ Lavani stupid question, but how do you SDI in Sm4sh? I can never seem to get it to work at all ;_;

 

[Phenomiracle]

Hold up, is Mop seriously that terrible? How is she below G&W, WFT, and Charizard?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Alright, you asked for it, info dump on Doc!

I'd slap him where Kirby, Bowser, or Falco is. Dunno who I'd move around (LOL) but I do know he's better than most of the chars he's below compared to this position. I've read that Kirby is better but I don't see it, even with Kirby's amazing up close game he has even less approach options than Doc (assuming no customs) and less range + no projectile even, unless you count Up+b lol.

As for Doc not being that low, Down-B. I know I've said this a lot but in his vanilla state this move is what makes him viable. You have a high priority punish for weak moves, spotdodges, rolls, a move that when used successfully as an edgeguard can drop Bowser at 70% assuming no DI (this is with no rage either :O ). That's excluding access to arguably the best OoS option in the game in his Up+B which can also be reversed during the sweetspot's hitlag meaning it is also safe to use offstage as a kill and you can make yourself safer on hit.

He's a bad character but I can't pin him that low, it just wouldn't feel right. Especially cause most of his MUs are just "Mario but I get gimped a bit harder in certain MUs and etc." along with a stronger punish game and better defensive specs. He's also good vs. some of the higher tier chars (like Luigi actually, he's better vs. Luigi than Mario is!)

As far as customs Doc, he'd probably be in the top area of C/low area of B because they really do solidify the character's options greatly despite still having clear weaknesses that keep him from totally making the climb.

 

[Locke 06]

Soon. Mega man. Soon. When IASA data comes out, I'm going to work on a character specific guide of punishes. It's gonna be beautiful.

I suppose, sweetspotting utilt can be a bit tough though, and I thought Up-Smash was fairly weak?

The sweet spot is actually pretty easy to hit. You just can't be inside your opponent, as he takes a step forward. Even sourspotted, it does 12% and kills around 140%.

Usmash kills around 125% and is disjointed, transcendent, and lingering. And it is my least used move. (Ugh why)

 

[Lavani]

@ Lavani stupid question, but how do you SDI in Sm4sh? I can never seem to get it to work at all ;_;

Uh...honestly, I'm trying to figure it out again now myself. When diagonals got changed in 1.0.5 it made my method (wiggle rapidly over a cardinal direction) not work anymore. If I figure it out again I'll let you know!

Hold up, is Mop seriously that terrible? How is she below G&W, WFT, and Charizard?

I feel like people undersell all three of those characters (I feel like I'm underselling G&W myself with him in bottom 5), but I'm not well-versed in them to defend it well and for the former two I have no real results to point to to support it . My main rationale for Lucina being down there is that she is a numerically worse Marth with less shield safety, and worse followups due to her hits having more KB than Marth's non-tippers (severe and situational example, but Marth can combo falling uair>tipper fsmash to kill around 40%; Lucina cannot). She also lacks fraudulent early kills that characters like Zelda, G&W, Doc, etc. have access to.

I could see an argument made that I'm selling her short on virtue of range alone, but I don't feel like she does anything remarkable with that range.

Alright, you asked for it, info dump on Doc!

I'd slap him where Kirby, Bowser, or Falco is. Dunno who I'd move around (LOL) but I do know he's better than most of the chars he's below compared to this position. I've read that Kirby is better but I don't see it, even with Kirby's amazing up close game he has even less approach options than Doc (assuming no customs) and less range + no projectile even, unless you count Up+b lol.

As for Doc not being that low, Down-B. I know I've said this a lot but in his vanilla state this move is what makes him viable. You have a high priority punish for weak moves, spotdodges, rolls, a move that when used successfully as an edgeguard can drop Bowser at 70% assuming no DI (this is with no rage either :O ). That's excluding access to arguably the best OoS option in the game in his Up+B which can also be reversed during the sweetspot's hitlag meaning it is also safe to use offstage as a kill and you can make yourself safer on hit.

He's a bad character but I can't pin him that low, it just wouldn't feel right. Especially cause most of his MUs are just "Mario but I get gimped a bit harder in certain MUs and etc." along with a stronger punish game and better defensive specs. He's also good vs. some of the higher tier chars (like Luigi actually, he's better vs. Luigi than Mario is!)

As far as customs Doc, he'd probably be in the top area of C/low area of B because they really do solidify the character's options greatly despite still having clear weaknesses that keep him from totally making the climb.

I can agree with all of this. Thanks for letting me know!

 

[Soul.]

I use jab lock to HSB/Fsmash for no reason.... lol. Not sure if you have to position yourself before the opponent falls down or something.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Hold up, is Mop seriously that terrible? How is she below G&W, WFT, and Charizard?

I honestly don't think she's THAT bad. She's like Marth, but does better against fast characters bc she can still kill and do good damage without spacing. Her kill potential is also really overlooked. Fsmash/usmash kill at 90-100% and 80-90% with rage. She's probably worse than Marth, but isn't horribly bad.

 

[Rizen]

Anyone in the states want to wifi? MW/WC work best.

 

[warionumbah2]

How is Lucina anything but low tier or low mid? What's her MU spread? How many advantageous MU does she have against the best characters?

She's tied as the worst sword user with Mii SF and no sword user is top 10 in Sm4sh. Shulk is the only true swordsman that is already good and has huge potential to get better.

I say true because MK and Tink doesn't fit in the swordsman category, they play nothing like em. Big hint is that MK use his hands and feet more than his damn sword.

Samurai really tried his best to make the clones inferior to the originals.

@ TTTTTsd Dr Guru who else does Doc do well against in the high tier bracket? other than Luigi.